Should all CMA systems have jab, cross, uppercut, and hook?

[YouKnowWho]

The jab, cross, uppercut, and hook all exist in the praying mantis system. It's 100% TCMA. It's the most basic punching tools for all MA systems. The boxing system doesn't own it.

1. jab:

http://s16.postimg.org/dumbdlcj9/pm_jab.jpg

2. cross:

http://s18.postimg.org/fef5hj3yx/pm_cross.jpg

3. uppercut:

http://s10.postimg.org/w9h3t35uh/PM_uppercut.jpg

4. hook:

http://s27.postimg.org/ue210dolf/pm_hook.jpg

Why do you think that some TCMA systems do not have all those basic striking tools? Your thought?

[xinyidizi]

who doesn't have it?

[YouKnowWho]

who doesn't have it?

If I list the styles name here, I would get into argument in the 1st page of my thread. I don't want that to happen. If people claim that their system has all those tools, they should be able to put up pictures or clips to prove it as I did for the praying mantis system.

Instead of saying which style doesn't have those tools (1/2 cup empty), let us try to prove which style has those tools (1/2 cup full) by posting pictures or clips. So, who want to start first?

[xiao yao]

I cant talk for southern styles, but I would imagine most northern styles have it. At least Tongbei Quan does, which has a lot of similarities to Mantis by the way.

I am pretty sure Chang Quan does too, but Ive only seen the system done as forms, never seen anybody applying it......

[SPJ]

1 Depending on styles/schools

there are modified fist methods with different names but serving the same functions.

2 We may use fist face, fist eyes, fist back, fist heart and fist wheel to strike.

3 In addition, single knuckle fist with different fingers.

4 chong chui or thrust fist is most difficult to understand and practice.

5 there are also drillling fists upward, forward, horizontal etc.

6 There are more modifications or specializations.

:)

[YouKnowWho]

I am pretty sure Chang Quan does too, but Ive only seen the system done as forms, never seen anybody applying it......

Here is my question. If those tools are so important, why it's not in the forms? If it's not in the forms, how do you know it didn't come from "cross training"? If I think hook punch is important, I'll put it into the 1st form that I create.

[Jimbo]

Here is my question. If those tools are so important, why it's not in the forms? If it's not in the forms, how do you know it didn't come from "cross training"? If I think hook punch is important, I'll put it into the 1st form that I create.

CLF has all of those, among others. They're important basics. Plus, they are in the forms.

BTW, I thought you feel that forms are a waste of time? If so, why does it matter if those basic strikes are in them or not? (This isn't an attack; I'm just curious).

[YouKnowWho]

I thought you feel that forms are a waste of time? If so, why does it matter if those basic strikes are in them or not? (This isn't an attack; I'm just curious).

IMO, forms are for teaching and learning. It's not for training. It's a record (like a book) to show the "content" of that style.

Here is my concern. If someone claims that his style has "hook punch". But you can't find "hook punch" in any of his forms. What does that mean?

[mooyingmantis]

Hung Gar and Monkey Fist have all those and they are in the forms.

[xinyidizi]

Both Chen style and XYLH have them. Even I could say that in terms of striking almost every common technique in MT/kick boxing somehow exist in them but I don't think that having or not having them is the biggest issue in TCMA. The biggest issue of TCMA is that in most cases at the beginning instead of training these basic techniques and mastering them in action like how the boxers do , people tend to overlook them and train a thousand other things in the air. The result is that they won't be able to manage a simple jab when they need it.

[deejaye72]

the angles might be there in tcma but, the delivery is so different. boxing is very realistic, i think more so then a lot of the tcma. although i guess alot of what we have in the west is probably watered down for various reasons.

[tc101]

IMO, forms are for teaching and learning. It's not for training. It's a record (like a book) to show the "content" of that style.


I agree that forms are for learning and teaching and not training. I also agree that they will contain some or most of the content of that style. However I do not see styles as closed systems where you are limited to only what is in your forms but that the style gives the individual a foundation that can be built upon.



Here is my concern. If someone claims that his style has "hook punch". But you can't find "hook punch" in any of his forms. What does that mean?

It depends there are several possibilities.

[Kellen Bassette]

The biggest issue of TCMA is that in most cases at the beginning instead of training these basic techniques and mastering them in action like how the boxers do , people tend to overlook them and train a thousand other things in the air. The result is that they won't be able to manage a simple jab when they need it.

This is, of course, the real problem...and IMO it should be a pretty simple fix, but people are stubborn...
While we're stating the obvious, Shaolin has all those techniques and I think it would be a much, much shorter list to name TCMA styles that DON'T contain these fundamentals.

As previously mentioned, it is less important whether the technique has been documented in a form, far more important whether you train these techniques in a live, practical, (non-performance) manner.

[tc101]

This is, of course, the real problem...and IMO it should be a pretty simple fix, but people are stubborn...
While we're stating the obvious, Shaolin has all those techniques and I think it would be a much, much shorter list to name TCMA styles that DON'T contain these fundamentals.

As previously mentioned, it is less important whether the technique has been documented in a form, far more important whether you train these techniques in a live, practical, (non-performance) manner.

I do not know Shaolin but I do know boxing having been doing it since I was 10, boxing in amateurs, and now helping trainers. These so called fundamentals are the tools of boxing. I do not think Shaolin has these tools or it would look like boxing and it doesn't. I do not see people practicing Shaolin move anything like boxers. I think people like to think they have these things just like people now say they also have ground tools in their art. Sometimes forms and styles are like Rorshach tests people see what they want to see.

Different styles have different ways of fighting and so have different tools tactics and strategies.

[Kellen Bassette]

I do not know Shaolin but I do know boxing having been doing it since I was 10, boxing in amateurs, and now helping trainers. These so called fundamentals are the tools of boxing. I do not think Shaolin has these tools or it would look like boxing and it doesn't. I do not see people practicing Shaolin move anything like boxers. I think people like to think they have these things just like people now say they also have ground tools in their art. Sometimes forms and styles are like Rorshach tests people see what they want to see.

Different styles have different ways of fighting and so have different tools tactics and strategies.

Shaolin applied and trained for fighting will look like sanda. People have an idea of what Kung Fu should look like and they think if it doesn't look like the form or a Kung Fu movie, then it's not Kung Fu.

Jab, cross, hook are foundational to Shaolin....

[TaichiMantis]

Shaolin applied and trained for sport fighting will look like sanda. People have an idea of what Kung Fu should look like and they think if it doesn't look like the form or a Kung Fu movie, then it's not Kung Fu.

Jab, cross, hook are foundational to Shaolin....

Fixed your quote

[Kellen Bassette]

Fixed your quote

Yes, but only because you won't have boxing gloves or fight shorts on...:cool:

[Faux Newbie]

I think the most questionable one is hook. My style has the same move that YKW places as hook, but I don't feel that move, in practice, is used in the same situations as what we call a hook, even if it is a strike that comes from the side.

The closest approximation, in my opinion, are chops, as they are used in similar range and usage as a normal hook.

As for the rest, yes, we have them. I would say that rear hand uppercut is also in my style, and is every bit as bread and butter as the rest.

[xinyidizi]

hook in xinyi
http://youtu.be/NsKl2mFcCE8

[Dragonzbane76]

The boxing system doesn't own it.


no they don't "own" it but they do it differently than most TCMA styles. Comparing the basic 4 of boxing to CMA or JMA is not really a comparison because of the stance. There is more power generation with the lead leg more rooted in boxing. Not downing the CMA or JMA systems just saying that when you add kicking into equation the stances change.

[Kellen Bassette]

no they don't "own" it but they do it differently than most TCMA styles. Comparing the basic 4 of boxing to CMA or JMA is not really a comparison because of the stance. There is more power generation with the lead leg more rooted in boxing. Not downing the CMA or JMA systems just saying that when you add kicking into equation the stances change.

Absolutely, kicks and takedowns force different stance then hands only...IMO stance is a bigger difference than the strikes themselves.

[crazychang]

looks totally different to the boxing set haha.

A lot of people say that choy lay fut has practical punches for the boxing ring, but that is a southern style!

I think the point people fail to see with some of the forms of is that trains you to be explosive.

[wiz cool c]

I’m not sure about shaolin looking like sanda. This has something to do with the cultural revolutions, and then kung fu coming back in the form of tao lu [forms] then fighting [sanda],does it not? All or most of the applications I have learned so far in shaolin involves the blocking hand to either grab or trap the attack. There is no grabbing the attacking hands in sanda with boxing gloves on. Also there are many applications for grabbing the guys wrist/arm and pulling him into a strike.

[Kellen Bassette]

I’m not sure about shaolin looking like sanda. This has something to do with the cultural revolutions, and then kung fu coming back in the form of tao lu [forms] then fighting [sanda],does it not? All or most of the applications I have learned so far in shaolin involves the blocking hand to either grab or trap the attack. There is no grabbing the attacking hands in sanda with boxing gloves on. Also there are many applications for grabbing the guys wrist/arm and pulling him into a strike.

Well you really can't grab the wrist and strike with boxing gloves on...when sparring kickboxers with boxing gloves it will naturally go to a Thai or wrestling style clinch at a close range. When I spar with Kyokushin fighters barehanded, however, I find grabbing the arm, (and their gis,) and striking,really comes into play naturally.

I do think northern gong fu striking resembles sanda striking.