What you want to train does not exist in your forms

[YouKnowWho]

If you like to use "foot sweep" as your initial attack. After you have swept one of your opponent's legs to be off the ground, you want to land your sweeping foot before your opponent can land his swept leg.

- Where will you land your sweeping leg?
- What attack will you follow with it?
- Which angle will you attack?
- How do you deal with your opponent's arms at that moment?

You will find out that none of your forms will give you those information. How and where will you get your information to help your training in this area? Did our ancestor ever think about this issue in the past? Your thought?

[xinyidizi]

If you like to use "foot sweep" as your initial attack. After you have swept one of your opponent's legs to be off the ground, you want to land your sweeping foot before your opponent can land his swept leg.

- Where will you land your sweeping leg?
- What attack will you follow with it?
- Which angle will you attack?
- How do you deal with your opponent's arms at that moment?

You will find out that none of your forms will give you those information. How and where will you get your information to help your training in this area? Did our ancestor ever think about this issue in the past? Your thought?

No need to do anything other than the forms. If you repeat them for 6 hours a day after a few years you will be able to break the opponent's leg with your first sweep or paralyze him by kicking the right spot. After that your opponent won't be able to move and you can finish him easily after that. There is a reason those things that you are worried about are not in the forms.

[Kellen Bassette]

If you like to use "foot sweep" as your initial attack. After you have swept one of your opponent's legs to be off the ground, you want to land your sweeping foot before your opponent can land his swept leg.

- Where will you land your sweeping leg?
- What attack will you follow with it?
- Which angle will you attack?
- How do you deal with your opponent's arms at that moment?

You will find out that none of your forms will give you those information. How and where will you get your information to help your training in this area? Did our ancestor ever think about this issue in the past? Your thought?

Sparring of course...I like to sweep my opponents lead leg with my lead leg, as he steps forward...if it fails, it can leave you to far to the side, in a bad position. Today my sparring partner avoided the sweep, so I went with the motion and landed a spinning back kick with the opposite leg.

You also need to be prepared for when techniques don't work out the way you plan...this is even harder to get from form training then the set-up, angle, control. Sparring is one of the best teachers.

[pazman]

No need to do anything other than the forms. If you repeat them for 6 hours a day after a few years you will be able to break the opponent's leg with your first sweep or paralyze him by kicking the right spot.

wut.




Okay, so to answer YKW's question, teaching taolu is similar to teaching a great work of literature. Your students not only engage the text itself, but you have to explain the context, the history, the hidden assumptions.

Individual movements in taolu often have their own "commentary", which is the oral instruction of the teacher passed on to the student, and their own drills, which are meant to illustrate the context in which the movements are useful.

Taolu can be an aid to teaching and learning, but can't replace the actual instruction from the coach. This business of "interpreting" taolu is bull****.

[YouKnowWho]

Sparring of course...

My concern is if you have sparred long enough, your sparring experience should be recorded into the forms that you have created. You can't expect each and every generation to start from ground 0 and accumulate information from their own sparring experience.

[YouKnowWho]

No need to do anything other than the forms. If you repeat them for 6 hours a day after a few years you will be able to break the opponent's leg with your first sweep or paralyze him by kicking the right spot. After that your opponent won't be able to move and you can finish him easily after that. There is a reason those things that you are worried about are not in the forms.
IMO, the "foot sweep" is used to sweep your opponent down. It's not used to hurt your opponent's leg. A bad "foot sweep" is called "管痛不管倒(Guan Ton Bu Guan Dao - it only causes pain but won't cause off balance". If your opponent just bend his leg at his knee joint, he can escape your foot sweep quite easily. When he does that, his foot is in the air that you can take advantage on it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk3XM0I0IDU

[xinyidizi]

My concern is if you have sparred long enough, your sparring experience should be recorded into the forms that you have created. You can't expect each and every generation to start from ground 0 and accumulate information from their own sparring experience.

Sorry I was joking.

Those things that you mentioned mostly can not be in the forms. There is a function for empty hand form training but I believe the things that you are concerned about are trained by directly training with your teacher 言傳身教 and then drilling/sparring with the other students. Hasn't it always been like this?

[RenDaHai]

- Where will you land your sweeping leg?
- What attack will you follow with it?
- Which angle will you attack?
- How do you deal with your opponent's arms at that moment?
=

But all these things ARE recorded in the forms. Look, I'm not saying that you can get good at it just by practicing the form, but the form DOES record these things.

The sweep will have a corresponding hand movement, this will be designed to be the most harmonious with the movement that will deal with the opponents hands in many variations.

The angle will be embedded in the direction of the form. Every technique in a form is described as ShunShen, HongShen (Side on, Square on) and others with respect to the opponent. This is one reason why Shaolin forms for example (and most northern styles) will always perform along one straight line, so you always know where the opponent is and what the angle of your body is with respect to them, the same stance standing side on and square are often very different techniques.

The sequence of the form IS the sequence it can be used in combination. Every move in a form can be used with the move next to it (at least in older forms this is true). This is why TaoLu are better than individual techniques (ShouBa). There are also rules to combining (BaYao (8), QiXing (7), LiuHe (6), WuXing (5), SiShao (4), SanJie (3), Taiji (2), WuJi (1) Etc are common ones) which will be unique to your sect.

The move directly after will tell you how to land the attack.


Of Course there are subtleties that can only be acquired through application of the technique. Of course. This is why you need a teacher and training partner not just a book. Also there is never a way to mimic the reality. The drilling in action (with opponent) will be the bulk of your learning but I find you can trust in the form and analyse it when you are stuck.

[-N-]

What you want to train does not exist in your forms

You mean "If what you want to train does not exist in your forms"?

This is followup to your comments about Tai Chi(?) doesn't sweep?

Because Praying Mantis and I'm sure other systems document this and all kinds of setup and followup for sweep.

[Vajramusti]

If you like to use "foot sweep" as your initial attack. After you have swept one of your opponent's legs to be off the ground, you want to land your sweeping foot before your opponent can land his swept leg.

- Where will you land your sweeping leg?
- What attack will you follow with it?
- Which angle will you attack?
- How do you deal with your opponent's arms at that moment?

You will find out that none of your forms will give you those information. How and where will you get your information to help your training in this area? Did our ancestor ever think about this issue in the past? Your thought?
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Depending on the style and the form- good practitioners with good teachers find applications for the forms IMO

[18elders]

forms are only part of it, you have to learn the form, then the 2 person set and then the drills from the form. this is the problem with many kung fu styles the do not teach in this manner. there is a 5 step process to learning and applying your movements, most only go to step 1

[HungKuenH]

We have takedowns and sweeps in our hung kuen forms,we train them in seperated drills from forms, from stand alone(just the sweeps),partner drills and try to use them in sparring...heres a highlight video with some take downs,attempts and sweeps... all of them were taken from sparring sessions..not picture perfect but were done in sparring...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fCm-gGJo6c

[mickey]

Greetings,

It has been my experience that once you have broken beyond the confines of your style, its -isms and definitions, you have truly just begun training your style.



mickey

[YouKnowWho]

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Depending on the style and the form- good practitioners with good teachers find applications for the forms IMO
The problem of your approach is your training will depend on the form that was created by someone else in the ancient time. If that form doesn't have certain technique, you will never be able to develop that technique.

I prefer to use the following approach instead.

You

- first learn a technique A1.
- then learn how to use technique X1 to counter technique A1 (this is like the 5 elements that water can be used to against fire).
- later on learn how to change your technique A1 into technique B1 to counter technique X1 (this is like the 5 elements that fire changes into earth which can be used to against water).

Now you have:

A1 <- X1 -> B1

If you can also develop

A2 <- X2 -> B2
A3 <- X3 -> B3
...
An <- Xn -> Bn

Now you have enough knowledge about the 1st level of counter, re-counter, and how a certain technique may flow into another technique. You can then develop your 2nd level, 3rd level, ... counter and re-counter this way.

It's like the 5 elements that

- wood can create fire,
- fire can create earth,
- earth can create metal,
- ...

- water can against fire,
- fire can against metal,
- metal can against wood,
- ...

Where will you develop that knowledge? Both from your teacher's instruction and also from your sparring/wrestling experience. Do you learn that from any TCMA form? So far I haven't be able to find any TCMA form that contain such information yet.

For example, your 1st finish move can be just the "leg twist". You can use kick to set up your punch, use punch to set up your head lock, use your head lock to apply your leg twist. If your opponent resists, you then change your leg twist into your leg lift. if he escapes your leg lift, you then change your leg lift into your inner edge sweep. If your opponent is still in good balance, you change your inner edge sweep into your leg block. If your opponent is still in good balance, you change your leg block into your outer twist.

Now you have a sequence of:

- kick,
- punch,
- head lock,
- leg twist,
- leg lift,
- inner heel sweep,
- leg block,
- outer twist.

It's almost contain enough information for a short form. If you pass this short form to the future generation, it will help people to understand the nature flow of certain techniques just as the 5 elements theory. Since this sequence doesn't exist in any TCMA form, you just have to create it all by yourself. What other options will you have? I think this is the most nature and logic way to train TCMA.