The expensive Lesson in the history of red boat uprising which Wck involve in

[Hendrik]

For wcners who is interested in history of Wck,



From the history of china 1850

The deadly mis understanding of the Dak ( as in Mo Dak) in china , contribute to the down fall and destruction of Taiping heavenly Kingdom uprising 1860 ( related to the red boat uprising which Wck involved )



A,

德
Dak or Moral.




B, Two common moral : Loyal and justice.


B1

忠者，當效忠於國，每人生於本國，秉賦天職，要忠於民，忠於領導，克勤職守，為公忘私，為國謀幸福，為世界 謀幸福。　

Chung or Loyal:
Public minded, carry out one's duty for one's country and the world peace and prosper.



Being missed understood or twisted as :

Blindly taking side and do anything for the benefit of one's own tribe disregards of proper or legal or consequence, Or obedient to serve the leader of the family blindly at all cost.




B2

義：利人，大公無私，要有見義勇為的精神，無論誰有困難，要盡力去幫助，解決問題。絕無企圖之 心。

Yi or Justice:

Public minded , benefit others helping others to over come difficulty or solving problem without any agenda.



Being missed understood as:
Taking side to unconditionally support one's tribe member disregard of proper or legal or consequence.




C:

The misunderstanding of the above commonly lead to : self righteous, self benefit, and abusing of power.

Contribute to the destruction of Taiping heavenly kingdom, the lost of the red boat uprising, and millions of innocent live.

Taiping has a great chance to over thrown Qing, but the leaders screw up.



The God's Chinese son, a great book to read for those who is interested in what happen 1850 china, red boat, ....

http://www.amazon.com/Gods-Chinese-Son-Taiping-Heavenly/dp/0393315568/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1397102129&sr=8-3&keywords=taiping+heavenly+kingdom



"A magnificent tapestry . . . a story that reaches beyond China into our world and time: a story of faith, hope, passion, and a fatal grandiosity."--Washington Post Book World




Whether read for its powerful account of the largest uprising in human history, or for its foreshadowing of the terrible convulsions suffered by twentieth-century China, or for the narrative power of a great historian at his best, God's Chinese Son must be read. At the center of this history of China's Taiping rebellion (1845-64) stands Hong Xiuquan, a failed student of Confucian doctrine who ascends to heaven in a dream and meets his heavenly family: God, Mary, and his older brother, Jesus. He returns to earth charged to eradicate the "demon-devils," the alien Manchu rulers of China. His success carries him and his followers to the heavenly capital at Nanjing, where they rule a large part of south China for more than a decade. Their decline and fall, wrought by internal division and the unrelenting military pressures of the Manchus and the Western powers, carry them to a hell on earth. Twenty million Chinese are left dead.



This review is from: God's Chinese Son: The Taiping Heavenly Kingdom of Hong Xiuquan (Paperback)


For me, this book is about as well told a history as I've read (and I've read hundreds of history books), covering the upbringing of Hong Xiuquan, his awakening to Christianity, and his emergence as a cult leader that wound up presiding over a nation-state. Spence offers colorful details that bring to life the Xiuquan capital, as seen both from residents and visitors. The book is at its most powerful when analyzing the writings of Xiuquan himself and how he adapted the Testament to suit his own needs and ego, creating a mythology that couldn't possibly survive the death of its leader. Meanwhile, there's the constant cat and mouse game played by the Chinese emperor's armies that try to vanquish the rebels.

[Hendrik]

Some Wck history researchers such as Robert chu and Rene Ritchie and more ..... have been researching the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom and its relationship with Wck.


We might be able to see more about the Taiping heavenly kingdom in video soon.

[Firehawk4]

http://www.imperialchina.org/Qing_Dynasty.html#taiping

[Hendrik]

http://www.imperialchina.org/Qing_Dynasty.html#taiping

Thanks!


Here too some old article

Ritchie, Rene; Chu, Robert; & Santo, Hendrik. "Wing Chun Kuen and the Red Junk Opera". Retrieved August 14, 2005.
Ritchie, Rene; Chu, Robert; & Santo, Hendrik. "Wing Chun Kuen and the Secret Societies". Retrieved August 14, 2005.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.WingChunKuenAndTheSecretSocieties-CollectedInformationByReneRitchie
http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.TheWingChunKuenOfChoHong-Choi-ByHendrikSanto

[Firehawk4]

http://www.shaolin.com.au/KF-01EmeiShan.html

[Minghequan]

Firehawk,

Really? ....... I mean Really? You have got to be kidding?:confused: Lol!:eek:

They teach everything! Emei, Shaolin, Wudang, Crane, Dragon, Tiger, Leopard, Panther! The "Master" must be at least 150 years old to know so much! Me I only know a very little White Crane and Taiji, I have a great deal to learn. This "Master" must be the most trained "Master" of all time!

[Minghequan]

Hi Hendrik,

I am not trying to be a Smart Alec here but if it is as you write that Wing Chun owes so much to Emei, Snake and the Whiter Crane styles then why don't you simply give up Wing Chun and find a Emei, Snake or White Crane Teacher???

[Firehawk4]

The Emie Guy can be Hendricks Emie Sifu and You ron Can be Hendriks Fukien What Crane Sifu then the problem with the Snake Crane thing will be solved .

[Minghequan]

Firehawk, Umm ... No. :rolleyes:

I have no desire to be anybody's "Sifu" .... I'm happy being a nobody and just going along, enjoying my life and what I do! Perhaps it's something others could apply to their own lives here? Who knows?

As for Emei, I sincerely doubt that "Grandmaster Robert Z" is truly representative of Emei .... call it a hunch!

As for Hendrik, I doubt he'd be open to learning anything from me. He seems to have his own agenda and I don't think it involves Fuzhou White Crane in any real sense!

[theo]

my understanding is hendrik's wck which has elements of both of those. it's that mix that gives wck its uniqueness as a separate art, just like u have taiji, etc. different than just studying emei, or just studying white crane


Hi Hendrik,

I am not trying to be a Smart Alec here but if it is as you write that Wing Chun owes so much to Emei, Snake and the Whiter Crane styles then why don't you simply give up Wing Chun and find a Emei, Snake or White Crane Teacher???

[KPM]

Hi Hendrik,

I am not trying to be a Smart Alec here but if it is as you write that Wing Chun owes so much to Emei, Snake and the Whiter Crane styles then why don't you simply give up Wing Chun and find a Emei, Snake or White Crane Teacher???

That's kind of a silly question Ron. Should all the Karate guys simply give up Karate and find a White Crane teacher as well? There was whole video about a group of them going back to China to research their White Crane roots. Should all the BJJ guys give up their BJJ and simply find a Japanese Jiu Jitsu or old school Judo teacher? Just because someone is interested in where they came from doesn't mean they want to go back! ;)

[Minghequan]

Keith, Silly? No more sillier than over 90% of the rubbish that gets posted!

And lets put it into perspective, I'm not the one saying Karate people should go back looking for White Crane (anyhow they won't find it in Karate anyway ... more like Tiger Boxing or Ngo Cho Kuen). Nope, you said that! :)

And another thing to consider, I'm not like Hendrik who is largely basing his teachings on what he calls the "original engines" ... being that of what he claims is Emei, Snake and Crane arts. So my suggestion/question that maybe he should consider these arts is now not that "silly" after all! ;)

Read through Hendrik's posts and it is very plain to see (as plain as the nose on your face) that he is looking heavily at these arts for the truth within his Wing Chun so asking why he does not study these arts or at least one of them isn't that far off from a reasonable question.

The way I read it and the way I am sure others do too, is that Hendrik is indeed seeking the origins of his Wing Chun and claims same can be found within the arts of Emei, Snake and Crane as he has gone to great lengths to state in his many posts on this forum.

[Kellen Bassette]

And lets put it into perspective, I'm not the one saying Karate people should go back looking for White Crane (anyhow they won't find it in Karate anyway ... more like Tiger Boxing or Ngo Cho Kuen). Nope, you said that! :)


Much traditional Okinawan Karate is based on Fujian White Crane. The only traditional Karate style, I can think of, that was heavily influenced by Tiger Boxing is Uechi Ryu.

[tc101]

That's kind of a silly question Ron. Should all the Karate guys simply give up Karate and find a White Crane teacher as well? There was whole video about a group of them going back to China to research their White Crane roots. Should all the BJJ guys give up their BJJ and simply find a Japanese Jiu Jitsu or old school Judo teacher? Just because someone is interested in where they came from doesn't mean they want to go back! ;)

My problem with Hendrik's theory is that it fails to take into account the reality of martial art. Look you cannot mix the techniques of boxing with the so called engine of tai chi and create some new great art. That will result in a mess that doesn't work. This is because fighting arts are not like car parts that you can rearrange to suit you. An art isn't just the techniques but integrated strategy, methods, tactics, techniques, and so forth. There is no such thing as an engine. The movement that you develop power from is not one thing and varies with what you are trying to do or in other words with technique. Boxing does not have an engine but various ways of developing power and they are interdependent on technique. The body and footwork and hands are not separate things but integrated movement. Same with wing chun.

Also he talks about martial arts as though they existed apart from people. Someone developed a way of fighting called wing chun. That person may have been trained in systems of fighting before developing his own way. But that is different than what Hendrik refers to.

[sanjuro_ronin]

People sometimes forget that regardless of how a MA started, what it is NOW is what is important.

[Minghequan]

Much traditional Okinawan Karate is based on Fujian White Crane. The only traditional Karate style, I can think of, that was heavily influenced by Tiger Boxing is Uechi Ryu.

And you base this on what? Knowledge of Uchinan-chu Tode? Japanese Karate? Your knowledge of Fuzhou White Crane?

Sorry but the White Crane & Karate Myth is just that, a myth made popular by a Chinese regime wanting more recognition for their country.

[KPM]

This is because fighting arts are not like car parts that you can rearrange to suit you.

----Really? Maybe you should go tell that to the Bruce Lee fans and the JKD guys! Go tell Paul Vunak and his crew that what they do doesn't work because they have mixed things up to suit themselve! ;)

. There is no such thing as an engine.

---Sure there is. You obviously don't understand what that means.

Boxing does not have an engine but various ways of developing power and they are interdependent on technique. The body and footwork and hands are not separate things but integrated movement. Same with wing chun.

---Again, you obviously don't know what its meant by an "engine." Every martial art has a distinct biomechanical method of generating power. That is the "engine." Boxing is no different. Modern boxing has its own "engine" that makes it distinctly different from the old school boxing of John L. Sullivan's day.

Also he talks about martial arts as though they existed apart from people. Someone developed a way of fighting called wing chun. That person may have been trained in systems of fighting before developing his own way. But that is different than what Hendrik refers to.

---I don't even know how to reply to that. What the heck does that mean?

[Kellen Bassette]

And you base this on what? Knowledge of Uchinan-chu Tode? Japanese Karate? Your knowledge of Fuzhou White Crane?

Sorry but the White Crane & Karate Myth is just that, a myth made popular by a Chinese regime wanting more recognition for their country.

What does Japanese Karate have to do with this? It's pretty well known and relatively recent history...I would think you would be aware that the Okinawan arts had their origins from China...

[YouKnowWho]

Sorry but the White Crane & Karate Myth is just that, a myth made popular by a Chinese regime wanting more recognition for their country.

I had spent quite some time to help a 7th degree Okinawan Karate teacher to translate a white crane book. Even a Okinawan Karate teacher believes that his system came from white crane.

[Minghequan]

What does Japanese Karate have to do with this? It's pretty well known and relatively recent history...I would think you would be aware that the Okinawan arts had their origins from China...

Oh really and what "authority" of White Crane said this as fact?

Have you talked to White Crane people?

Two weeks prior to his sad passing, Master Ruan Dong came out and stated that he did not think that White Crane and Karate had a connection and that he was pressured by the Chinese "powers to be" to imply or state the "connection" as it was good for the reputation and world positioning/ Tourist aspects etc.

As for the Okinawan arts I have studied these in-depth including on Okinawa and yes some of the arts have a tenuous connection to China (Uechiryu / Tiger Boxing, Gojuryu / Five Ancestors Fist etc) but not White Crane!

[Minghequan]

I had spent quite some time to help a 7th degree Okinawan Karate teacher to translate a white crane book. Even a Okinawan Karate teacher believes that his system came from white crane.

Oh. Who was the Nanadan and what is the style? What was the book?

Also what knowledge does this Nanadan Karateka have of White Crane?

If you are truly interested, I have some books / pages that could be translated into English. Would be happy for you to take a look at a few pages (not the whole thing ... that would take forever!)

[YouKnowWho]

Oh. Who was the Nanadan and what is the style? What was the book?

Also what knowledge does this Nanadan Karateka have of White Crane?

If you are truly interested, I have some books / pages that could be translated into English. Would be happy for you to take a look at a few pages (not the whole thing ... that would take forever!)

His first name is Ronny who lives in Bastrop, Texas. I believe he trains Uechi-ryu karate. Don't remember the title of that book. That was almost 40 years ago.

[Minghequan]

Ah I know the guy, Ronald Lindsay of Matsumura Shorinryu & "Hakutsuru" ... hardly someone I'd be putting too much stock into as representative of the Crane / Karate connection!

So are you interested in doing some small translations???

[YouKnowWho]

Ah I know the guy, Ronald Lindsay of Matsumura Shorinryu & "Hakutsuru" ... hardly someone I'd be putting too much stock into as representative of the Crane / Karate connection!

So are you interested in doing some small translations???

I believe Lindsay is his last name. I totally forget about it. It's a small world. I'm not interesting in translating someone's book any more. At this point of my life, "style" has no meaning to me. I'm not like Hendrik. I'm not interest in history.

[Minghequan]

Sorry Ron it's not quite so black & white. Uechi Ryu is based on the system handed down by Zhou Zihe. It was taught at Xiaoliansi and is based upon Hu Zun Quan and Bai He Quan. It's quite possible that Goju Ryu is partially based on Wu Zu Quan, of which Bai He Quan is a large part. Many older Kata of Okinawa Te are based upon Bai He Quan. Naihanchi, Neipai, Chinto, Neiseishi, Sanchin, Seisan etc. all have direct links to Bai He Quan. Now this isn't to say that all Karate is based on or stems from Bai He Quan, but it was definately an influence to a degree. Okinawa's cultural influence obviously altered the way it was performed, Japanese influences changed it even further. But to say there is no link is false. Is it misrepresented? Absolutely, the mechanics of Okinawa Te and Bai He Quan are quite different but in some aspects many movements are related, not only in theory but in design. It must also be brought up that most of the "softer" versions of White Crane from China are relatively newer, many less than 125 years old. Evolution and adaptation of martial arts styles are a common thing when popular trends are dictated to teachers by a fickle mob of mainstream consumers whose whims are based upon social norms and popularity.

David,

To paraphrase, I see nothing similar in the mechanics of Karate to Fuzhou White Crane. Look to the writings of Lee Kong (The world's most eminent Researcher/Historian on White Crane) in his massive treatise on the subject and you won't see any connection or even mention of "Karate" as some sort of offshoot of White Crane. Original Crane had only 15 techniques and no forms until the influence of Zheng Si Chi ... that much is recorded ... so where is the Crane influence upon Karate?

What you are mainly talking about is verbal history ... Uechi-Ryu may well be based in part on some Crane (Not very much!) but remains largely a Tiger style offshoot ... that no one can deny.

Goju-Ryu and Wuzhquan .. yes! Crane? .... No. Wuzuquan is a five animals system and Crane doesn't have the over-riding influence there. One of my guides is a Wuzuquan Stylist and quite famous at that.

Kata: Naihanchi, Neipai, Chinto, Neiseishi, Sanchin, Seisan with the exception of maybe Nepai and Sanchin those forms and the moves within could readily be connected to several other forms of Chinese Martial Arts .... simply a matter of interpretation ( which is largely the oral myth stuff ) ... even Sanchin is seen in a greatr many other Chinese arts and not just Crane! So I think that's stretching things a fair bit.

To quote yourself in another thread:


Just because the apple is a different color and has a slightly different taste doesn't make it a banana, it's still an apple. Now I can appreciate the finer nuances and subtle alterations as well as the next guy, but thats all it is. I'm not seeing anything of an eye opening revelation that is going to propel my understanding and execution of the art beyond what I all ready know and comprehend. This "engine" you speak of, well any engine can be overhauled, but we also have to look at the chassis, transmission, body, suspension, wheels, brakes etc. You can't turn a Ford Fiesta into a Dodge Ram and expect it to perform the same, their uses are different and their parts aren't interchangable. Just as one can't use this "ancient" DNA theory to elevate their current lineage specific WC without transforming it into YKWC/SCWC.


we also have to look at the chassis, transmission, body, suspension, wheels, brakes etc

Exactly so what is supposed to be an influence of some major proportion on Karate as has been expressed here and elsewhere is only likely to be a few "nuts and bolts" if that, certainly not the whole vehicle!


You can't turn a Ford Fiesta into a Dodge Ram and expect it to perform the same, their uses are different and their parts You can't turn a Ford Fiesta into a Dodge Ram and expect it to perform the same, their uses are different and their parts aren't interchangable

So true. The influence cited by many as being a major thing really comes down to more "wishful thinking" than actual White Crane. Remember Karate then and now is a vastly different beast to each other. "Their uses are different and their parts aren't interchangeable"


popular trends are dictated to teachers by a fickle mob of mainstream consumers whose whims are based upon social norms and popularity

That's it in a nutshell. All the popular beliefs, the myths, the stories passed down cannot accurately represent nor change the overwhelming evidence that White Crane and Karate are two entirely different vehicles! Sure they may be "vehicles" but they are not the same. Just look to the He Quan, Quan Jue to see this.

In the end however and once all the cyber-dust has settled, you will hold your beliefs based largely on your background in Crane (Tibetan in origin) and I will do the same based upon my own (Fuzhou, Fujian & YongChun).

[Minghequan]

Like I said .... agree to disagree ... ain't no big deal! ;)

You stated Hong Chuan Yongchun Quan, Yongchun Bai He Quan, Fuzhou He Quan ... What lineage of YongChun and Fuzhou He Quan as these are just base terms without the lineage?

[Vajramusti]

People sometimes forget that regardless of how a MA started, what it is NOW is what is important.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
True

[Kellen Bassette]

As for the Okinawan arts I have studied these in-depth including on Okinawa and yes some of the arts have a tenuous connection to China (Uechiryu / Tiger Boxing, Gojuryu / Five Ancestors Fist etc) but not White Crane!

Nobody said Karate is White Crane...your changing your argument. Certain schools of Karate are descended from White Crane and other Fujian Gong Fu, with Okinawan culture and influences.

Your earlier insinuation, you have since backed away from, that Karate is not connected to Chinese MA is absurd. It was called "China Hand" for crying out loud! It is well documented that Okinawan Te and later Karate Masters traveled to China to train. You don't deny the existence of Sanchin, so where did that come from...if the China/Okinawa connection is a Chinese nationalists' fabrication?

Or the naming and histories associated with other classical Karate Kata for that matter...If your unaware of a strong Chinese connection, I doubt very much your knowledge of OMA.

[Minghequan]

Wow! Highly insulting! Stating I know little about traditional Chinese Martial Arts and Okinawan Martial Arts!

This response is an insult to me in the terms of my own martial art. Your tone implies that I know very little of anything. I'm no world-beater that's for sure, just a seeker! But give me a little credit. I see nothing unique or special with in your points raised thus far.

You obviously have a lot invested in this argument so how about we start by you stating just how much Fuzhou White Crane you have personally experienced and what Okinawan Martial Arts you have studied?

Then I'd know or at the least have an idea of where your coming from in your rather strongly worded, bordering on insults comments!

Me? I know nothing. I have only be doing the Martial Arts for the past 43 years so I am only just "scratching the surface". A period of those years was in Nihon Karate (Shotokan & Goju Ryu) then moving on to Okinawan Martial Arts from 1988 (Matsumura Seito Shorin-Ryu, Kochinda Saburo Ryukyu Kobudo, Koshinkan Kojo Ryu and Hakutsuru). From there (1996) - to present day) my final phase and current place of learning in the Zhenlan Minghequan Tradition. I have also studied the Taiji of Erle Montaigue and am a recognised instructor in that system.

As you can plainly see, my experiences are very little and I'm a nobody in the greater scheme of things. I am a old, slightly overweight grey haired guy of very little skill and even less knowledge.

I'd be happy to bow to your knowledge on this subject. Just show me your experiences of this area of discussion and I'll gladly give way to your knowledge!

Looking forward to hearing from you.

[Minghequan]

One thing I'd like to raise if I may here as a White Crane stylists or even an other stylist looking in, all this back and forth stuff really doesn't make me want to know more about Wing Chun. In fact quite the opposite.

To an outsider, martial artist or not, this one up-manship, this "only I have or know the real Wing Chun" does a great dis-service to the art in all of its forms and lineages ...... just something to consider.

[KPM]

One thing I'd like to raise if I may here as a White Crane stylists or even an other stylist looking in, all this back and forth stuff really doesn't make me want to know more about Wing Chun. In fact quite the opposite.

To an outsider, martial artist or not, this one up-manship, this "only I have or know the real Wing Chun" does a great dis-service to the art in all of its forms and lineages ...... just something to consider.

Good point Ron. I agree with you.

[Kellen Bassette]

Wow! Highly insulting! Stating I know little about traditional Chinese Martial Arts and Okinawan Martial Arts!

This response is an insult to me in the terms of my own martial art. Your tone implies that I know very little of anything.


Apologies, but I was simply matching the tone given.

[Minghequan]

Kellen, I'm not interested in some form of one up-manship or Internet P#ssing Contest.

I'm not into putting people down for the sake of my own ego or to score a few points with other posters.

So lets leave it at that shall we?

However, you did not answer my question regarding just how much Fuzhou White Crane you have personally experienced and what Okinawan Martial Arts you have studied?

Then I'd know or at the least have an idea of where your coming from.

I'll repeat my background overview not that it's anything all that special:

Me? I know nothing. I have only be doing the Martial Arts for the past 43 years so I am only just "scratching the surface". A period of those years was in Nihon Karate (Shotokan & Goju Ryu) then moving on to Okinawan Martial Arts from 1988 (Matsumura Seito Shorin-Ryu, Kochinda Saburo Ryukyu Kobudo, Koshinkan Kojo Ryu and Hakutsuru). From there (1996) - to present day) my final phase and current place of learning in the Zhenlan Minghequan Tradition. I have also studied the Taiji of Erle Montaigue and am a recognised instructor in that system.

As you can plainly see, my experiences are very little and I'm a nobody in the greater scheme of things. I am a old, slightly overweight grey haired guy of very little skill and even less knowledge.

I'd be happy to bow to your knowledge on this subject. Just show me your experiences of this area of discussion and I'll gladly give way to your knowledge!

[PalmStriker]

:) Minghequan, check your PM box and let me know if message was received, thanks.

[Minghequan]

Thanks Keith. Really all this discussion is doing nothing good for the image of Wing Chun which if my "Google Fu" is any good .... well it's not that crash hot anyway (Due to the in-fighting, "My Wing Chun am better than yours", "only I have the one true way", stuff I am seeing and reading).

So threads like this really do this great art a terrible dis-service and lower not only the art but those practitioners who endlessly debate, put-down and claim that theirs is the one true Wing Chun.

All are forgetting the one thing of real importance! Do you enjoy your art & training?

If so, then all this "kerfuffle" is of no importance or relevance to you!

Just get on with it! Less talk, less endless debate about who is right or wrong, 1850's Wing Chun versus present day! Seriously, when all this Cyber Bulldust is settled what has it achieved except for people who should be training and enjoying their art spending countless hours punching away at a keyboard!

I don't care if you agree with my art. I don't care if you say your art is better than mine. I don't call if you say I am a fraud, only a historian, not a fighter or too much of a fighter! Why because at the end of the day, I will still be training away, working on myself for myself! At the end of the day I can spend time with my wife and children and this whole debate has no hold of me!

Maybe others also need to simply let go and simply "Be!"

[Minghequan]

Palmstriker .... Done & replied!

[PalmStriker]

:D Thanks, some stuff I thought you might be interested in.

[Firehawk4]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwSz961XkZk

[Minghequan]

Lol! Seriously? That vid was filmed way back in 95 not long after a return from Naha-shi. The form is a small section of the Okinawan Nepai (Chinese: Ershibabu) and I was very young if I recall I was about 30??? Taught to me by Yabiku Takaya whose "Hakutsuru" was more Chinese than Okinawan. this form, he claimed, came to him via two guys: Wong O'gan Pyon and a Chinese guy Zhuan Ping. Truth is, its largely rubbish! I haven't practiced that form since that year.

Here is some footage of me doing our "Open" (Level 1 of 3) version of SanZhan Ba Xian Zhang:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bq_brh6zas

This is one of the closing sections of our Fanq Qiniang Shou Form:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBKHYb90lBw

And one of my young guys doing pole:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULtmCQ7aL0M

None of us are very special or all that good!

[Kellen Bassette]

Kellen, I'm not interested in some form of one up-manship or Internet P#ssing Contest.

I'm not into putting people down for the sake of my own ego or to score a few points with other posters.

Nor am I.



So lets leave it at that shall we?


Fair enough...I don't try to make anything personal, just stating the fact that the link between Fujian and Okinawan MA is well known.



However, you did not answer my question regarding just how much Fuzhou White Crane you have personally experienced and what Okinawan Martial Arts you have studied?

I do not have White Crane background. I do have a background in Go Ju Ryu.

[Minghequan]

How long have you done Goju-Ryu and is it the Okinawan or Japanese variant??? What form of Goju-Ryu?

So you haven't done any White Crane? That's interesting. I don't wish to be demeaning here but how can you speak on behalf of an art you have never done?

[KPM]

How long have you done Goju-Ryu and is it the Okinawan or Japanese variant??? What form of Goju-Ryu?

So you haven't done any White Crane? That's interesting. I don't wish to be demeaning here but how can you speak on behalf of an art you have never done?

It seems to me that he is not "speaking of behalf" of White Crane, just as I am not "speaking on behalf" of White Crane when I say it shares lots of similarities to WCK. If you own a Lexus do you have to also own a Mercedes when you compare your Lexus to a similar model Mercedes? If you have a degree in Engineering to you also have to have a degree in Physics to talk about how similar the two disciplines are at times? Would you be "speaking on behalf" of WCK if you said it didn't share similarities with White Crane?

[Minghequan]

It seems to me that he is not "speaking of behalf" of White Crane, just as I am not "speaking on behalf" of White Crane when I say it shares lots of similarities to WCK. If you own a Lexus do you have to also own a Mercedes when you compare your Lexus to a similar model Mercedes? If you have a degree in Engineering to you also have to have a degree in Physics to talk about how similar the two disciplines are at times? Would you be "speaking on behalf" of WCK if you said it didn't share similarities with White Crane?

Hey KPM, I don't want to come across as disrespectful here but why don't you let Kellen Bassette actually reply to the questions put forward???

Now that would be a novel approach!

That's the inherent problem with forums, too many chef's and not enough cooks in the kitchen or in this case too many Masters, not enough learners.

And also the usual "Pack-Dog" mentality which see's everyone and their pet budgie jump in!

Look at your own defence of Hendrik against this very same thing and now your jumping in on me? Just a differing viewpoint to all maybe:confused:

Now to the actual subject, you are comparing White Crane and Okinawa Arts to a Lexus and a Mercedes ...... really? I mean .... really???

And you have an idea of Okinawan Arts and Crane how? Don't justify, just answer the question put forward.

You "Martial Artists" (I'm not one, just a Seeker of the Way) are a funny type of beast! So easily bent out of shape over so little. I wonder how that works?

Me, happy all the time, lovely family, extremely happy with my pursuits in life so maybe the lesson is really don't sweat the small stuff.

It's only a forum. It's only Martial Arts. Just enjoy the communication and leave out the habitual and consistent "point-scoring" and maybe we would all be better off for it! :)

Just a suggestion ............ :confused: ;)

[crazedjustice88]

hahahaha this thread got interesting.

As far as the connection between the two styles goes I recently watched that kung fu quest series and it seems that both white crane masters and the okinawan masters and grand masters all agreed that the karate came from some branch of the white crane school, so theres that...
Just my 2 cents.

[KPM]

Hey KPM, I don't want to come across as disrespectful here but why don't you let Kellen Bassette actually reply to the questions put forward???

Now that would be a novel approach!

Well Ron, I don't mean to be disrespectful either. But I think you're full of cr@p! ;)

That's the inherent problem with forums, too many chef's and not enough cooks in the kitchen or in this case too many Masters, not enough learners.

And also the usual "Pack-Dog" mentality which see's everyone and their pet budgie jump in!

Here is exactly what I'm talking about. I think that way too often people here don't speak up in support of someone else. Take my recent exchange with our HFY colleagues as an example. I had 3 different HFY guys telling me I was wrong. Yet I know the majority of non-HFY people reading along were very likely agreeing with everything I said. But no one really spoke up until near the end. To the HFY guys that made it sound like I was "off the wall" or "out there" and not speaking for a pretty common viewpoint. Too often on this forum people are unwilling to back each other up. That's all I was doing. I thought your comment to Kellen was out of line, so I spoke up and said something. This is a free discussion forum. Anyone is welcome to chime in with a comment or opinion. If you didn't want anyone else as part of the conversation then you should have responded to Kellen via Private Message.

I also felt justified in speaking up because you had made this comment on another thread:

I had said:
The link with White Crane should be pretty obvious, given the many similarities we share.

You responded:
Confused a little, are you saying you do White Crane here?

No, I wasn't saying I studied White Crane, and that should have been pretty obvious. "We" in the comment above referring to "we WCK people", since this is after all a WCK forum. So my assumption was that you were saying I couldn't make comparisons to White Crane if I didn't study White Crane, just as you were implying that Kellen couldn't comment on White Crane if he wasn't studying it.


Look at your own defence of Hendrik against this very same thing and now your jumping in on me? Just a differing viewpoint to all maybe:confused:

What are saying? I came to the defence of Hendrik because the accusations towards him just weren't adding up and it was an obvious smear campaign. Just has I chimed in to back up Kellen when I thought your comment was inappropriate.

Now to the actual subject, you are comparing White Crane and Okinawa Arts to a Lexus and a Mercedes ...... really? I mean .... really???

Are you saying you can't follow a simple analogy? Really? I mean....really????

And you have an idea of Okinawan Arts and Crane how? Don't justify, just answer the question put forward.

Ah! I guess my prior post went completely over your head! :rolleyes:

You "Martial Artists" (I'm not one, just a Seeker of the Way) are a funny type of beast! So easily bent out of shape over so little. I wonder how that works?

Now hold on Ron. It seems to me that YOU are the one that was just "bent out of shape"! Calling me out for speaking up for Kellen....throwing around comments about just where we all studied White Crane and so how dare we express an opinion or any knowledge of the subject! Really!

You need to practice what your preach buddy! :cool:

[Minghequan]

Thanks for being so polite and nice by saying that I am full of "Cr@p" ...... Make a lot of friends that way do you? Your Wude is great!

Keith it wouldn't matter what I wrote as you would simply twist it your way. You seem to have a lot invested in this despite your total lack of knowledge of White Crane.

Me? Well life goes on.

So lets agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Have a nice day!

[KPM]

Thanks for being so polite and nice by saying that I am full of "Cr@p" ...... Make a lot of friends that way do you? Your Wude is great!

Really?? Again?? I will refer to my previous comment about "practicing what you preach"!!!! Let me remind you of your comments that I was responding to:

why don't you let Kellen Bassette actually reply to the questions put forward???

Now that would be a novel approach!

the usual "Pack-Dog" mentality You "Martial Artists"And you have an idea of Okinawan Arts and Crane how? Don't justify, just answer the question put forward.

Keith it wouldn't matter what I wrote as you would simply twist it your way. You seem to have a lot invested in this despite your total lack of knowledge of White Crane.

Me? Well life goes on.

So lets agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Have a nice day![/QUOTE]

[KPM]

Sorry for the repost guys. For some reason the system won't let me edit the post above and even requote and start over. Weird. Anyway....

Ron, let me point out what you said and what I was replying to:

"what don't you let Kellen reply...that would be a novel approach!" .....thinly veiled sarcasm (I'm guilty of the same)

"the usual pack-dog mentality".....you're accusing me of being a "pack-dog"? Really?

"you Martial Artists!" ......you? as in "I'm so much different from the rest of you?" ????

"you have any idea of the Okinawan arts and Crane how? Don't justify, just answer the question put forward!" ..... I addressed this in my prior post. Ignoring what I said and making such an accusatory and demanding post seems kind of rude. Don't you think?


So now you tell me how you are any more "polite and nice" and have better "Wude" than me!!!! :cool:

[Minghequan]

Keith,

Whatever man! It's only a forum ... don't shoot your load over it.

I have written verifiable notes of Master Ruan Dong in which he talks about the little to no real link between Karate and White Crane and about the Chinese Government ... but then what would he know??? ... he was just a dedicated White Crane practitioner for all of his life up until his sad passing (2010) ... go figure!

I guess you know more about it all then he did even though he actually lived it .... again, go figure! :(

Don't believe it? Well that's your cross to bear not mine and I don't think that even if Ruan Dong himself came back from the great beyond and told you this personally that you would believe him anyhow ... call it a hunch! :rolleyes:

[Vajramusti]

Keith,

Whatever man! It's only a forum ... don't shoot your load over it.

I have written verifiable notes of Master Ruan Dong in which he talks about the little to no real link between Karate and White Crane and about the Chinese Government ... but then what would he know??? ... he was just a dedicated White Crane practitioner for all of his life up until his sad passing (2010) ... go figure!

I guess you know more about it all then he did even though he actually lived it .... again, go figure! :(

Don't believe it? Well that's your cross to bear not mine and I don't think that even if Ruan Dong himself came back from the great beyond and told you this personally that you would believe him anyhow ... call it a hunch! :rolleyes:
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Does the continued discussion of white crane relationship to karate. Ruan Dong etc really belong to a wing chun lst?

[KPM]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does the continued discussion of white crane relationship to karate. Ruan Dong etc really belong to a wing chun lst?

I don't think so. And I was really addressing the idea that Ron thinks "we" WCK people can't comment on similarities with White Crane without having studied White Crane in-depth. I could care less about the White Crane/Karate connection. But despite what Ruan Dong may have written, there seems to be plenty of people who don't agree with him. The real point of contention is this idea that no one has the right to comment about another martial art without having studied said art in-depth. That's just silly. And Ron saying I am rude and inpolite with poor "Wude" and that we all shouldn't be getting "bent out of shape", when the guy really needs to be taking a hard look in the mirror! That's all! :)

[Vajramusti]

I don't think so. And I was really addressing the idea that Ron thinks "we" WCK people can't comment on similarities with White Crane without having studied White Crane in-depth. I could care less about the White Crane/Karate connection. But despite what Ruan Dong may have written, there seems to be plenty of people who don't agree with him. The real point of contention is this idea that no one has the right to comment about another martial art without having studied said art in-depth. That's just silly. And Ron saying I am rude and inpolite with poor "Wude" and that we all shouldn't be getting "bent out of shape", when the guy really needs to be taking a hard look in the mirror! That's all! :)
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Good points!!

[zuti car]

Karate is nothing more than a simplified White Crane .

[Vajramusti]

Karate is nothing more than a simplified White Crane .
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IMO- the absorption of aspects of crane into the synthesis of wing chun belongs here.
But discussion of karate relationship to crane belongs in the southern forum- don't you think.

Why muddle up the wing chun forum more than it already is the case?

[zuti car]

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IMO- the absorption of aspects of crane into the synthesis of wing chun belongs here.
But discussion of karate relationship to crane belongs in the southern forum- don't you think.

Why muddle up the wing chun forum more than it already is the case?
I agree , that is why i wrote this , I hope people will understand ;)

[Minghequan]

I agree.

Keith your a good guy! Maybe a little misguided but a real good guy so lets move on shall we!

[KPM]

I agree.

Keith your a good guy! Maybe a little misguided but a real good guy so lets move on shall we!

Whatever Ron! Sure, let's move on. Looking forward to your input from a White Crane perspective in future discussions. Its nice to have a "distant cousin" to us WCK types here to contribute. ;)

[Minghequan]

Thanks mate, to be honest it may just be my typical Aussie sense of humour which has gotten us both off on the wrong foot here! I'll try and reel it in within the future.

I have posted some notes of mine from Ruan Dong in the Southern Forum if interested!

Peace! ;)

[KPM]

Thanks mate, to be honest it may just be my typical Aussie sense of humour which has gotten us both off on the wrong foot here! I'll try and reel it in within the future.



No problem Ron! But just one more thing, because it occurred to me that this thread has become exactly what I was talking about. You referred to a "pack-dog mentality" while I chose to call it "backing someone up." I have said that someone doesn't have to be an expert on a given topic to compare it to what they know. I gave two different analogies. I don't need to be an expert in White Crane to recognize things it shares with WCK. I'm sure lots of my fellow WCK people reading along would agree with me. But no one posted to back me up. So to you it seems like I am "misguided", when I am really just expressing a fairly common opinion within the WCK community.

[Paddington]

[...] I don't need to be an expert in White Crane to recognize things it shares with WCK. I'm sure lots of my fellow WCK people reading along would agree with me. But no one posted to back me up. So to you it seems like I am "misguided", when I am really just expressing a fairly common opinion within the WCK community.

I think you are right. I viewed the relationship as given and obvious and thought there was little need to pass comment or back you up.

[KPM]

I think you are right. I viewed the relationship as given and obvious and thought there was little need to pass comment or back you up.

Understood. Thanks Paddington.