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Hendrik
04-10-2014, 09:27 AM
Why do we know yik kam art is very very likely to be a pre 1855 redboat art?

Because there are multiple data of the pre 1855 era can be verify with.




A,

the history background is there was a pre 1855 red boat opera group which is an anti Qing , hung mun, uprising group lead by Lee Man Mau, and there was a post 1870 opera group which are not the same group but Qing gorverment support group. Between 1855 to 1870 , about 15 years, opera was ban by Qing gorverment.

So, when one refer to the red boat Wck ancestors who is anti Qing, it is in general refer to the pre 1855 group.



B,
at the era of pre 1855, there are common term uses at that time among the hung mun a anti Qing members, today we can find these common denominator term within The small knive group of Shang hai , choy li fut, and yik kam SLT kuit.


C,

it is recorded in the official history of china that, lee man mau of the red boat opera and the small knive group of Shang hai were partners in the red boat uprising of the 1854 era, and the small knive group of Shang hai also related to the Taiping Heavenly kingdom.

It is also known that choy li fut is the martial art uses to train the Taiping Heavenly kingdom army.


D, In the era of pre 1855 or pre red boat uprising , we know, the term Hung Ying or its backward writing as Ying Hung or hero are the common term used among the Shang hai small knive group, the Choy li fut , and yik kam SLT kuit on the closing salutation.


This term were not seen post 1860's after the uprising of red boat and taiping heavenly kingdom destroyed.



E, the closing salutation kui of yik kam art is

Yc13劍指膀肘呈英雄
Sword finger bong elbow present to the hero

Notice the Hero or Ying hung term



F, in the attach choy li fut photos show the Ying Hung term used and 1848 related

G, also the badge of the small knive "Hung ying " group of Shang hai

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 09:31 AM
From the same CLF book.

Please read also the previous CLF photo to see it is 1848 related

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 09:33 AM
The badge of small knive Hung Ying group of Shang hai

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 09:35 AM
The link of small knive group, Taiping heavenly kingdom , Hung Mu , anti Qing

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 09:36 AM
The Hung ying coin.


Within the attach description
"Under the door of Hung martial , Hero were born in every generation "

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 09:43 AM
Yik kam salutation which represent



Yc13劍指膀肘呈英雄
Sword finger bong elbow present to the Hero


Kuit from the YKSLT part 4

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 09:44 AM
the yik kam Wck salutation above is based on this attached Chinese opera cheography , the yik kam salutation show its opera art identity, and yik kam identity as a red boat opera actor and a hung mun anti qing.


Yik kam slt kuit says:


Yc13劍指膀肘呈英雄
Sword finger bong elbow present to the Hero

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 09:48 AM
The half point kuit of the yik kam lineage Wck , based on Gm Cheong Wei Poh Cho family lineage.

Notice the yellow marking say, Stable the Taiping.
Taiping as in Taiping Heavenly Kingdom.

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 09:57 AM
Thus, form the above Salutation kuit , pole kuit, and salutation cheography from the Yik kam art.

We do know,

The yik kam art, Does fit into the pre 1855 red boat opera , by the verification from the hung mun, choy li fut, red boat opera uprising history, taiping heavenly kingdom uprising history.

We know the term Hung Ying or Ying Hung (hero) is a common denominator term of that era. And softer that era, this term seldom seen later.

Thus, Wck kuit without the Ying Hung term is very likely to be post 1855 or belongs to post red boat uprising.




With these above,

We do know what is likely today in term of the

DNA or mother art of the YKSLT . The red boat uprising involvement.

Thus, we do have a snap short on what is likely to happen in pre 1855 on board of the red boat opera and Wck at that era.


And we know the so called shao Lin in that era is hung mun or heaven and eart society instead of Shao Lin temple.

http://www.mnwhstq.com/qztsgfile%5C研究成果%5C南少林武术%5C武术文化与会党文化语境中的福建南少林研究.pd f

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 10:11 AM
Thus,

Is CLF from Shaolin? Yik kam WCK from Shaolin?

Extremely not likely, what extremely likely is replace the term SHAOLIN with HUNG MUN. These people all belongs to the anti Qing hung mun . And their martial art have different mother arts


Nothing come out from blue, 160 years is not too far away and can be tracked from multiple sources. Facts do tell the story .

hskwarrior
04-10-2014, 10:29 AM
Both Chan Heung and Jeung Hung Sing's schools were deeply connected to the Hung Mun. All the way up to the Xinhai revolution that overthrew the Qing in 1911. Choy Lee Fut people were heavily instrumental to the Hung Mun. Now, it's my personal opinion that Chan Heung's first teacher was one of the Five founders of Hung Mun. Jeung Hung Sing was also a student of one of the hung mun five founders. The five founders were shaolin monks. What many people don't realize when "Shaolin" was the focus.....not all shaolin temple's were named "SHAOLIN". Knowing this, the temple the five founders were members of may not have been titled "SHAOLIN" but under a different name, while still being shaolin.

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 10:29 AM
Red boat 1850


Put all your angels on the edge
Keep all the roses, I'm not dead
I left a thorn under your bed

I'm never gone

Go tell the world I'm still around
I didn't fly, I'm coming down

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUIXL6zCTsE&feature=youtube_gdata

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 10:32 AM
Both Chan Heung and Jeung Hung Sing's schools were deeply connected to the Hung Mun. All the way up to the Xinhai revolution that overthrew the Qing in 1911. Choy Lee Fut people were heavily instrumental to the Hung Mun. Now, it's my personal opinion that Chan Heung's first teacher was one of the Five founders of Hung Mun. Jeung Hung Sing was also a student of one of the hung mun five founders. The five founders were shaolin monks. What many people don't realize when "Shaolin" was the focus.....not all shaolin temple's were named "SHAOLIN". Knowing this, the temple the five founders were members of may not have been titled "SHAOLIN" but under a different name, while still being shaolin.

Could possible be too!


This is a very good research article on southern shaolin if you have Chinese translator

http://www.mnwhstq.com/qztsgfile%5C研究成果%5C南少林武术%5C武术文化与会党文化语境中的福建南少林研究.pd f

hskwarrior
04-10-2014, 10:41 AM
We know the term Hung Ying or Ying Hung (hero) is a common denominator term of that era. And softer that era, this term seldom seen later.

Ying Hung meaning hero's is a common theme amongst revolutionary fighters. However, Hong Ying is in reference to a certain individual highly regarded by the Hung Mun.
I was actually the Vice Chairman of Hung Mun's "Hong Ying Ser"........https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1.0-9/25215_336199602731_2075493_n.jpg

hskwarrior
04-10-2014, 10:45 AM
The image below belongs to one of the five hung mun founders who was designated to cover guangzhou and Guangxi areas. The triangle with the hung word indicates just to what lodge this belongs to

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8267&stc=1&d=1397147576

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 12:13 PM
Ying Hung meaning hero's is a common theme amongst revolutionary fighters. However, Hong Ying is in reference to a certain individual highly regarded by the Hung Mun.
I was actually the Vice Chairman of Hung Mun's "Hong Ying Ser"........https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1.0-9/25215_336199602731_2075493_n.jpg

Thank you and very appreciate for your sharing!

These information help us get good view from different site on red boat uprising era!

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 12:15 PM
The image below belongs to one of the five hung mun founders who was designated to cover guangzhou and Guangxi areas. The triangle with the hung word indicates just to what lodge this belongs to

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8267&stc=1&d=1397147576


Yes!

Guangzhou and guangxi areas link to Red boat opera uprising as we can see in the history.

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 12:16 PM
Yik kam Wck salutation gesture with Wck technics

Left high tan sau ( using today's common naming) right fook kuen presenting "Over turn the Qing"

hskwarrior
04-10-2014, 12:19 PM
In the picture about you circled "loong Bai Mei".......

is that significant of something?

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 12:24 PM
Left fook sau right high tan kuen as the gesture of " restore Ming"

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 12:27 PM
Late Gm Cho Hung Choy presenting

" Five lakes Four seas " implement with sun punch and finger thrust.



As we can see, all these gesture of anti Qing are implemented with WCK technics and in the center line position. According to my late sifu Cho hung choy, In the ancient time, the salutation tell the identity of the person and the art on training in.

In these case, the yik kam Wck salutation shows

It is the art of Wck, the Hung mun, and by the Opera people.

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 12:31 PM
In the picture about you circled "loong Bai Mei".......

is that significant of something?

A
Some how, after Yik Kam time , later,
some one in Cho family evolve his Siu Nim tau with CLF as show in this attached Siu nim tau kuit.

The "loong bai mei" of CLF was in this kuit as circled in yellow and red.


B
So, there are the kuit or writing yik kam passed down, and there are kuit which is an evolution within Cho family later. Cho family has both type of kuit depend on different Cho family off spring lineages.


C
Always great to have you here to share from CLF and Hung Mun side,
It is important so that wcners can know i don't make up these stuffs!

hskwarrior
04-10-2014, 12:52 PM
From the Hung Mun persepctive, in southern China styles (especially fut san) like wing chun, hung Sing Choy Lee Fut, and Hung Gar kuen were all members of the Hung Mun. each school taught their own groups, but all those schools were "HUNG" family schools. So, yes, WC is a Hung Mun style, specifically Jeung Hung Sing's lineage was created and developed strictly for the Hung Mun even though we are of the CLF family,and of course Hung Gar Kuen are members of "Hung Gar" or the family of Hung (which includes said styles amongst others).

Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut IS a Hung "(洪)" Family fighting method



by Sifu Frank McCarthy 02-18-14

Hung Gar (洪家) gung fu is one of the more famous styles of Chinese Martial Arts to come from Southern China. "Hung" (洪) means Vast, Flood, and is a surname, while Gar (家) means family. This style was founded by Hung Hei Gung and further popularized by people like Wong Fei Hung. The martial arts its members practiced came to be called "Hung Gar" and "Hung Kuen" deep low stances, powerful hand techniques, and their trademarked Hung Gar bridge hand. They also have a strong connection with the Chinese secret society known as the Hung Mun 洪門 (Hung Gate). In fact, the majority of southern styles of gung fu were deeply intertwined with the secret society.
The Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon (佛山洪勝/鴻勝舘) as founded by Jeung Hung Sing and his Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut (鴻勝蔡李佛) system is one of those styles categorized within the realm of "Hung Gar Kuen" or Hung Family Fist. Let me explain, I'm not saying we are part of the Hung Gar Kung Fu system, you won't see us doing their identifiable Kiu Sow. However, what I am saying is that the fighting method of Hung Sing Choy Lee fut created by Jeung Hung Sing is indeed an art with deep roots to the Hung Mun aka Hung Family. Contrary to popular belief, Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut wasn't established for Chan Heung in order to spread and promote the "Choy Lee Fut" style. It was exclusively created and developed to become a fighting art of the Hung Mun aka Hung Society and utilized in warfare right away.
Jeung Yim never completed Chan Heung's Choy Lee Fut system and therefore could not have been representing Choy Lee Fut between the years of 1841-1867 for a few reasons. In 1841 Chan Heung was forced to ask Jeung Hung Sing to leave the Chan village in King Mui and instructed him to go to the Baat Pai Mountain which is found in the LouDing Province near the border of Guangxi. Jeung Yim was to locate a monk who went by the name of Ching Cho (Green Grass) to see if he would be able to complete his gung fu training. After he found the monk his training took 8 years to finish learning the Shaolin Fut Gar system. Then the Green Grass monk gives him a new name and instructions that would change Jeung Yim's life forever.
In the time that Jeung Yim was away learning a new style under Monk Ching Cho, Chan Heung continued to develop his Choy Lee Fut system. It's entirely safe to state that Jeung Yim didn't get a chance to update his Choy Lee Fut training under Chan Heung during those years because of his absence. In fact, there's no mention of Chan Heung in Jeung Hung Sing's life between 1841-1867 and two and half plus decades is a long time to not be in Choy Lee Fut's picture. Imagine how far Choy Lee Fut advanced by that time and Jeung Yim wasn't there to pick any of that up. Still, he had whatever he learned from Chan Heung for those first 5 years.
Another thing contrary to popular belief was Jeung Ah Yim wasn't sent to Fut San to establish a Choy Lee Fut school for Chan Heung. As a matter of fact, it was Monk Ching Cho who sent him there for a purpose. In those days the Chinese secret society preferred to communicate their messages in the forms of ****nyms, metaphors and ambiguous poetry or slogans. First he changed Jeung Yim's name to Hung Sing (洪勝 - Hung Victory) which was an abridged version of the Hung Mun's "Mission Statement" about overthrowing the Qing Empire. The secret behind the name is that it means "the Hung Mun will be Victorious in overthrowing the Qing Dynasty".

The next thing that Monk Ching Cho did was instruct the newly named Jeung Hung Sing to travel to Fut San in order to make contact with the triad leaders there. Then he was to set up a school to train the freedom fighters for the up and coming Tai Ping Rebellion. At the time the Sam Hop Wui had its headquarters in the city of Fut San. Its believed that Jeung Hung Sing was also a member of this section of the Hung Mun. Interestingly enough, the Sam Hop Wui was founded by the Green Grass Monk.

Jeung Hung Sing and his direct disciples fought in every major uprising in southern China between 1851 and the time of his death in 1893. In all of Fut San Jeung Yim's "Hung Sing Kwoon" virtually encompassed the entire city. Eventually it grew into the "Hung Sing Wui" or Hung Sing Society. Although Jeung Hung Sing passed away, the connection to the Hung Society continued on through his students and grand students. Following in the same manner as their founder and Grand Master thousands of Hung Sing students rose up in revolution after revolution against homegrown and foreign aggression.

In the eyes of those who were afraid to lose their position of power, Hung Sing students were rebels who associated themselves with "gangsters" and outlaws. In the eyes of the people, and later in the eyes of their government, Hung Sing students were heroes. Additionally, students of Chan Heung's legacy were also hero's because of their own part in the revolution. In fact, a couple of Chan Heung's grand students Cheng Si Leung, Chan Siu Bak were partners with Dr Sun Yat Sen in his mission to overthrow the Manchurians. Students like Yuen Hai and Chan Ngau Sing in addition to grand Students of Jeung Hung Sing like Chin Wai Fong, LiangGuihua, Li Guanghai, and Wu Qin played very crucial roles in events like the Xinhai Revolution of 1911 and the Japanese invasion.

While Wu Qin became one of Dr. Sun Yat Sen's bodyguards for swimming out and planted a bomb on and sunk a Japanese war Ship, others were hired to teach combat at the Wampo Military Academy. Then over in the United States, the connection to the Hung Mun continued through Professor's Lau Bun and Jew Leong, Grand Master Dino Salvatera and Sifu Frank McCarthy. While there is no more revolutions taking place, the American Hung Sing Kwoon's involvement was always out of loyalty and tradition. As a student of Hung Sing and a member of the Hung Society I am very proud to be a part of this legacy that has been running through the veins of the Hung Sing Kwoon for more than 163 years now.

As I sit back and reflect on the extensive relationship between Choy Lee Fut, Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut and the Hung Mun i see more clearly now that while Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut has its connection to Chan Heung's Choy Lee Fut, our lineage wasn't developed to benefit Chan Heung. It was undoubtedly created, designed, and utilized for the Hung Mun. It would be incorrect to say Chan Heung gave birth to Jeung Hung Sing's lineage. If indeed this was the case, you would find more than a few forms created and passed down by Chan Heung,but, the fact of the matter is that Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon doesn't possess one single form passed down within the King Mui, Jiangmen, Kong Chow, or any schools closely related to Chan Heung. Therefore, when comparing Choy Lee Fut and Hung Mun, all fingers point to us being a school of the Hung family.
Hung for life.

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 01:00 PM
李文茂,广东鹤山人,在1854年(咸丰四年),响应陈开在广东佛山举行的起义,聚众数万,七月与陈开起义 军围攻广州,称“平靖王”


Lee man mau, from canton Hok San , at 1854 lead the red boat uprising ...

The following is the coin based on his kingdom

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 01:04 PM
From the Hung Mun persepctive, in southern China styles (especially fut san) like wing chun, hung Sing Choy Lee Fut, and Hung Gar kuen were all members of the Hung Mun. each school taught their own groups, but all those schools were "HUNG" family schools. So, yes, WC is a Hung Mun style, specifically Jeung Hung Sing's lineage was created and developed strictly for the Hung Mun even though we are of the CLF family,and of course Hung Gar Kuen are members of "Hung Gar" or the family of Hung (which includes said styles amongst others).

Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut IS a Hung "(洪)" Family fighting method



by Sifu Frank McCarthy 02-18-14


Hung for life.



Frank,

Thanks!






When wcners go before Leung Jan era in history , these are what we see when we enter 1840.

Lucky that we still inherit lots of things in many different source to examine and verify the information!


Hope that in the future with all these information and mother art DNA of Wck,

The art of Wck can be a formal corse in the university under the Asia art department!

Paddington
04-10-2014, 01:48 PM
Ying Hung meaning hero's is a common theme amongst revolutionary fighters. However, Hong Ying is in reference to a certain individual highly regarded by the Hung Mun.
I was actually the Vice Chairman of Hung Mun's "Hong Ying Ser"........https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1.0-9/25215_336199602731_2075493_n.jpg

Why the use of the masonic symbol? That would suggest strong links with the British and Europeans with regards to the opium wars.

PalmStriker
04-10-2014, 02:04 PM
Yik kam salutation which represent



Yc13劍指膀肘呈英雄
Sword finger bong elbow present to the Hero


Kuit from the YKSLT part 4 Now that is a stance striking form that I have been waiting many years to see, much like the "eye of the needle" form, only TCMA WingChun base. You have my vote Hendrik, for coming across with the goods. (picture in post #6).

hskwarrior
04-10-2014, 02:04 PM
Yes!

Guangzhou and guangxi areas link to Red boat opera uprising as we can see in the history.

I'll state this much, the five hung mun ancestors were spread out across southern China occupying various regions. One of the monks took over the Guangzhou and guangxi area's. In these area's everyone part of the hung mun fell under that munks family of hung mun, regardless of having their own groups. Everyone in these area's i mentioned fell under the red flag only. i mean, pirates, bandits or whatever, they fell under that monk of the Hung Mun

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 02:06 PM
I'll state this much, the five hung mun ancestors were spread out across southern China occupying various regions. One of the monks took over the Guangzhou and guangxi area's. In these area's everyone part of the hung mun fell under that munks family of hung mun, regardless of having their own groups. Everyone in these area's i mentioned fell under the red flag only. i mean, pirates, bandits or whatever, they fell under that monk of the Hung Mun


Frank,

Thanks for sharing!

Appreciate !

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 02:08 PM
Why the use of the masonic symbol? That would suggest strong links with the British and Europeans with regards to the opium wars.


Opium war was 1839 era, after that the anti Qing wave rises ....

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 02:13 PM
Now that is a stance striking form that I have been waiting many years to see, much like the "eye of the needle" form, only TCMA WingChun base. You have my vote Hendrik, for coming across with the goods. (picture in post #6).

Use it if you like, it belongs to all wcners ancestors from the red boat opera.



Attached is the source of the sword finger Jin of this technics . From the emei 12 zhuang mother art.

Obviously when Wck evolve after 1855 or anti Qing red boat opera no longer exist, the opera salutation and this technic was discontinuous. You don't see it in the Wck three sets .

Times to bring things back, 2014.

The seven bows, ....etc they are coming back , starting USA and Europe , more then a hundred has expose to it now

Paddington
04-10-2014, 02:22 PM
Opium war was 1839 era, after that the anti Qing wave rises ....

I am talking about that image with the red background that was posted. As you know the opium wars ran on until 1860 and the influence of the British, particularly on the criminal organisations, remained for a long time after. You still didn't answer why a masonic symbol is presented in that image. It must have escaped your attention.

hskwarrior
04-10-2014, 02:32 PM
Why the use of the masonic symbol? That would suggest strong links with the British and Europeans with regards to the opium wars.

The actual masonic symbol was first used by the Hung Mun in the mid to late 1800's in america. today, they are known as the Chinese Free Masons and recognized as such by the local masonic lodges in our city. in fact, our lodge received the Hiram Award. There are very strong similarities between european and chinese societies. Our Chinese masonic lodge is alleged to have roots going back to egypt. Since everything is in Chinese, i'm still learning as i go along.

but no, no roots to the european lodges.

https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t31.0-8/1782293_10152024304862732_901725228_o.jpg

PalmStriker
04-10-2014, 02:43 PM
Use it if you like, it belongs to all wcners ancestors from the red boat opera.



Attached is the source of the sword finger Jin of this technics . From the emei 12 zhuang mother art.

Obviously when Wck evolve after 1855 or anti Qing red boat opera no longer exist, the opera salutation and this technic was discontinuous. You don't see it in the Wck three sets .

Times to bring things back, 2014.

The seven bows, ....etc they are coming back , starting USA and Europe , more then a hundred has expose to it now Excellent detail. Thanks, Hendrik. I will show you some stuff soon that is not public knowledge involving old school Biu Jee.

Paddington
04-10-2014, 02:44 PM
The actual masonic symbol was first used by the Hung Mun in the mid to late 1800's in america. today, they are known as the Chinese Free Masons and recognized as such by the local masonic lodges in our city. in fact, our lodge received the Hiram Award. There are very strong similarities between european and chinese societies. Our Chinese masonic lodge is alleged to have roots going back to egypt. Since everything is in Chinese, i'm still learning as i go along.

but no, no roots to the european lodges.




From what I understand of the subject matter I have to disagree with nearly every statement you just made. That masonic symbol has been used in Europe for a lot longer than the 1800's and I don't say that in terms of making a claim to origins. I've seen it used by other wing chun groups too though the extent to which they are aware of that symbol's meanings and who it is used by, I do not know. However, I have seen people mistakenly use that symbol to represent the idea of the male and female triangles in foot work.

hskwarrior
04-10-2014, 02:54 PM
From what I understand of the subject matter I have to disagree with nearly every statement you just made.

Oh, so you know our history then????? I never said we were the first. In fact, that symbols equivalent is the Yin and Yang symbol. again, you asked about that symbol on the red background, that is the shirt from our lodges youth group. The majority of the Chinese Secret societies today use that symbol but have absolutely zero to do with the europreans. disagree all you like, but i don't think you really read the first sentence i wrote correctly. read again.

Hung Mun uses the square and compass. some wing chun schools are a part of the Hung Mun. Choy Lee Fut and Hung Gar as well. If a kung fu school is using the symbol, it's because they are members of the Hung Mun, who uses that symbol.

as well, since you disagree with everything i stated about my hung mun origins, please inform me how we are not connected to Egypt......please tell me how my lodge never received the Hiram Award.........please tell me how the Hung Mun's make up is so different to that of the structure of european masonic lodges? I'm always open to learning and as you disagree......pls enlighten me.

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 03:12 PM
Excellent detail. Thanks, Hendrik. I will show you some stuff soon that is not public knowledge involving old school Biu Jee.

Great !
Thanks!

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 03:18 PM
How emei 12 zhuang the mother art of YKSLT link to Daoism and then Buddhism.

YKSLT link to emei 12 zhuang via the small set of the emei 12 zhuang
YKSLT link to Daoism and Buddhism via emei 12 path.

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 03:26 PM
For those who have not seen my brief summary chart yet

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 03:26 PM
Body of the art

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 03:27 PM
Force under the body of the art chart

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 03:28 PM
Application of the art

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 03:29 PM
The yik kam slt seven bows and force flow diagram

Vajramusti
04-10-2014, 05:09 PM
The yik kam slt seven bows and force flow diagram
-------------------------------------------------------

I don't know what the point is in this thread is except fo r possibly embedding yik kam0 Hendrik's version into
wing chun discussions. The matter of joints, flow, action- reaction, finger work are known in my line - integrated into motion
without the verbiage.

joy

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 05:47 PM
-------------------------------------------------------

I don't know what the point is in this thread is except fo r possibly embedding yik kam0 Hendrik's version into
wing chun discussions. The matter of joints, flow, action- reaction, finger work are known in my line - integrated into motion
without the verbiage.

joy



Joy,

Seven bows diagram is a detail of the above 1850 System summing up chart under seven bow handling.

Wck is Wck, some have it today , some don't, some evolve, ...... Natural tendency

PalmStriker
04-10-2014, 07:17 PM
One question only, Hendrik. * Is Emei snake or dragon (flying snake) mentioned directly in the old documents as being one of the 2 mother arts of WingChun? You may have answered this question in an earlier thread. Is the Emei Character present?

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 07:28 PM
One question only, Hendrik. * Is Emei snake or dragon (flying snake) mentioned directly in the old documents as being one of the 2 mother arts of WingChun? You may have answered this question in an earlier thread. Is the Emei Character present?




Snake in the YKSLT is the emei 12 zhuang which has the advance joints (biomechanics + bioelectric + biochemistry ) fine handling , unique in the history of tcma. The name of this technology is called "'snake slide worm move"

Crane in the YKSLT is fujian white crane which has the center line theory and momentum handling, unique in the history of tcma.


The YKSLT writing clearly leaving the identify able lines lead to the above two mother art.



For example :

The following lines of the YKSLT kuit related solidly to the emei 12 zhuang document.

Y7神寄指爪䄂底旁。
Pay attention to the finger, craw , and the side under the sleeve .
Y8旋迥自然順脈氣
Spiral twisting naturally , follow the breathing and the direction of the qi.



The following line of YKSLT kuit related solidly to pre 1800 Fujian White Crane.

Y18企掌屈肘單昭陽
Erect palm bent elbow single zhao yang




And, in today's YKSLT set which I share out to different lineages of wcners , these kuits are realized within the set practice, and one can get result to see a different within days after following it. Many wcners in the west have learn these.


Some have commented ,when the emei snake technology is implemented the SLT is like handling the bow in a violin. That is the feeling of the snake slide joint and force flow handling.

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 07:51 PM
The following are the most beginner basic simple introduction of
emei 12 zhuang snake slide worm move technology which is embedded in the YKSLT .
Great thing of high tech is we can see it as it is without have to guess what it is.



While watching these videos,
Read the following YKSLT kuit,
the video show the most simply rough example of these YKSLT kuit

Y6手臂鞭出橫力勁
The arm whip out the horizontal power
Y7神寄指爪䄂底旁。
Pay attention to the finger, craw , and the side under the sleeve .
Y8旋迥自然順脈氣
Spiral twisting naturally , follow the breathing and the direction of the qi.


http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/3HHaB0cR4M4/

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/d4r-IGHMVJk/

PalmStriker
04-10-2014, 08:00 PM
Thanks, I had seen that translation work that you had posted. Much of the snake signature movement is gone from the Yip Man SLT in contrast to the Pan Nam SLT form. One very rigid, the other, more flowing than any other WC style, including, Yiu Choi SLT. Yik Kam lineage did not travel the same route through Leung Jan, you can see much more of the snake movement in Cho family SLT (not the completely stylized movement of a snake style, including Emei Snake).

Vajramusti
04-10-2014, 08:07 PM
Thanks, I had seen that translation work that you had posted. Much of the snake signature movement is gone from the Yip Man SLT in contrast to the Pan Nam SLT form. One very rigid, the other, more flowing than any other WC style, including, Yiu Choi SLT. Yik Kam lineage did not travel the same route through Leung Jan, you can see much more of the snake movement. (not the completely stylized movement of a snake style, including Emei Snake).
-------------------------------------

In some wing chun lineages - snake movements are there. People may miss the subtlety.

Vajramusti
04-10-2014, 08:08 PM
Thanks, I had seen that translation work that you had posted. Much of the snake signature movement is gone from the Yip Man SLT in contrast to the Pan Nam SLT form. One very rigid, the other, more flowing than any other WC style, including, Yiu Choi SLT. Yik Kam lineage did not travel the same route through Leung Jan, you can see much more of the snake movement. (not the completely stylized movement of a snake style, including Emei Snake).
-------------------------------------

In some wing chun lineages - snake movements are there. People may miss the subtlety.
The devil in the details again.

joy chaudhuri

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 08:09 PM
Thanks, I had seen that translation work that you had posted. Much of the snake signature movement is gone from the Yip Man SLT in contrast to the Pan Nam SLT form. One very rigid, the other, more flowing than any other WC style, including, Yiu Choi SLT. Yik Kam lineage did not travel the same route through Leung Jan, you can see much more of the snake movement. (not the completely stylized movement of a snake style, including Emei Snake).

Just check the seven bows in the SNT practice, one can see if the snake technology is there or evolve differently. One can see the signature clearly.

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 08:12 PM
-------------------------------------

In some wing chun lineages - snake movements are there. People may miss the subtlety.
The devil in the details again.

joy chaudhuri

True, check Ipman lineage bj set will find snake.

PalmStriker
04-10-2014, 08:20 PM
-------------------------------------

In some wing chun lineages - snake movements are there. People may miss the subtlety.
The devil in the details again.

joy chaudhuri
Agree with this assessment. I never thought about snake-style or crane style in WingChun until joining this forum. :) Pan Nam SLT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lwl97ty4aw

Hendrik
04-10-2014, 08:39 PM
Agree with this assessment. I never thought about snake-style or crane style in WingChun until joining this forum. :) Pan Nam SLT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lwl97ty4aw

The mother art are not those animal mimicking snake style or crane style .

Fujian white crane is a lady style , and emei 12 zhuang is advance Buddhist alchemy art.

So, one must not mis understood them as those animal kungfu style as in the movie.

Hendrik
04-11-2014, 12:49 AM
Hendrik,

Aside from the Hung Mun salute, I see nothing different in the mechanics of YKWC from any other line.

Apart from the verbage, history and choreography it all appears to my eye to be the same stuff. Some simply emphasize an iron bridge over a soft bridge. I appreciate your passion in researching the history of WC and it's impact on Chinese history, but, what is so unique about YKWC?

Even the Kuen Kuit isn't all that different from from any other line. Same goes for all this SCWC stuff. Just because the apple is a different color and has a slightly different taste doesn't make it a bananna, it's still an apple. Now I can appreciate the finer nuances and subtle alterations as well as the next guy, but thats all it is.

I'm not seeing anything of an eye opening revelation that is going to propell my understanding and execution of the art beyond what I all ready know and comprehend.

This "engine" you speak of, well any engine can be overhauled, but we also have to look at the chassis, transmission, body, suspension, wheels, brakes etc.

You can't turn a Ford Fiesta into a Dodge Ram and expect it to perform the same, their uses are different and their parts aren't interchangable.

Just as one can't use this "ancient" DNA theory to elevate their current lineage specific WC without transforming it into YKWC/SCWC. Or is that the whole idea?


1. It would be appreciated if you brought up only YKWCK
And Do not brought up SCWC here which I am isolated from and not related to my post above.


2. I am presenting YKWCK or what is there in red boat 1850, a verifiable data point of Red boat Wck.
So, please do not read into what I am not present.


3. As for uniqueness, engine, kuen kuit, DNA. One only see what one can see.
For example, A differential equation looks like algebraic equation too. But they are different.
Thus, I let you find out for yourself what is the different.

Daniel Fong
04-11-2014, 01:09 AM
Why isolate scwc? biomechanics + bioelectric + biochemistry... will it turn into incredible hulk when angry?
8300

Daniel Fong
04-11-2014, 01:19 AM
Sorry my bad. This looks more like it. biochemistry my ass...
8301

Paddington
04-11-2014, 02:11 AM
Why isolate scwc? biomechanics + bioelectric + biochemistry... will it turn into incredible hulk when angry?



Sorry my bad. This looks more like it. biochemistry my ass...


Daniel, your behaviour is becoming childish with posts like this. Whilst I think Hendrik is block posting too much at least said posts have substantive points, albeit repeated somewhat. For the record I actually welcome Hendrik talking about SCWC and I hope he continues to do so.

KPM
04-11-2014, 03:43 AM
Hendrik,

Aside from the Hung Mun salute, I see nothing different in the mechanics of YKWC from any other line. Apart from the verbage, history and choreography it all appears to my eye to be the same stuff. Some simply emphasize an iron bridge over a soft bridge. I appreciate your passion in researching the history of WC and it's impact on Chinese history, but, what is so unique about YKWC?

Dave I agree that what Hendrik is showing is not all that different. But then it shouldn't be should it? It's all still WCK! But there may be some subtle nuances that don't change the engine completely, rather they just tune it up a bit. Things get altered or forgotten with time and generations. I think what is unique about YKWC is that it may be a window into what WCK looked like 150 years ago. To some that may be no big deal. I think it is kind of interesting. So I agree with Paddington in appreciating what Hendrik has been openly saying and describing recently. I haven't had any "eureka moments" either, but it is still interesting to see how he explains the biomechanics.

theo
04-11-2014, 03:47 AM
all lineages have a bit different things, but none has it all. hendrik's not saying ykwc is superior but it has internal component to it and is what wck likely was pre-red boat via the one long set SLT. it's a reference point in the entire evolution. and about the kuit, you said it's not htat different from any other line. ykwc has a kuit for every move in the SLT. other lineages have kuit, but have not heard of one that goes into that level of detail.


Hendrik,

Aside from the Hung Mun salute, I see nothing different in the mechanics of YKWC from any other line. Apart from the verbage, history and choreography it all appears to my eye to be the same stuff. Some simply emphasize an iron bridge over a soft bridge. I appreciate your passion in researching the history of WC and it's impact on Chinese history, but, what is so unique about YKWC? Even the Kuen Kuit isn't all that different from from any other line. Same goes for all this SCWC stuff. Just because the apple is a different color and has a slightly different taste doesn't make it a bananna, it's still an apple. Now I can appreciate the finer nuances and subtle alterations as well as the next guy, but thats all it is. I'm not seeing anything of an eye opening revelation that is going to propell my understanding and execution of the art beyond what I all ready know and comprehend. This "engine" you speak of, well any engine can be overhauled, but we also have to look at the chassis, transmission, body, suspension, wheels, brakes etc. You can't turn a Ford Fiesta into a Dodge Ram and expect it to perform the same, their uses are different and their parts aren't interchangable. Just as one can't use this "ancient" DNA theory to elevate their current lineage specific WC without transforming it into YKWC/SCWC. Or is that the whole idea?

Vajramusti
04-11-2014, 06:28 AM
Hi Guys,

I understand what you saying and even where Hendrik is coming from, but honestly, enough is enough. How many people from Yip Man's line goes on about their advanced version of SLT, because some lines have one. With this I'm not talking about William Cheung's version but an actual alternate version that contains turning and a small section similar to Chum Kiu, this was taught to some early Foshan students. I've seen it, I've even "practiced" it but will not make claims that it is "original" WC from 1850. I understand what Hendrik is trying to bring across, but if you look closely the agenda is still there. All this DNA and engine talk is just semantics IMO. I can appreciate variety and nuance the same as anyone else, but to hop up on the soap box and reiterate the same dribble over and over is getting redundant. I will give Hendrik credit for his research he does a good job at uncovering WC's past but it all seems to lead into the DNA & engine thing and how a 150-200 years ago it was completely different and how so much has been lost. Nothing has been lost, people just want to believe that they have in their possession something that no one else has. Wing Chun for what it is, is complete and lacks nothing that isn't necessary. I'm pretty sure as an art that visually it hasn't changed much from it's conception. It's only visually different within the lines that have other influences whether they admit it or not ex: Pao Fa Lien, Chan Family, Tang Family, Cho Family, etc....See where I'm coming from, look into it for yourselves only the lineages with obvious other art influences make unverified claims and promote an alternate spin on the history to justify their innovations. Nothing wrong with mixing it up, that's how things evolve after all, just admit to it. Doesn't matter if it happened yesterday or 200 years ago. Even Hendrik admitted that someone in Cho family altered SLT with Choy Lay Fut, could of happened 175 years ago and for all I know that's when the Kuen Kuit was written. Whose to say that their Kuen Kuit wasn't codified after the alterations were made and that's why they have a description for all the moves in SLT. Kuen Kuit proves absolutely nothing other than someone took the time to write their understanding of the art down, it is not a certificate of authenticity by any means.

I can appreciate the relevance of how the formal salutation of Cho family coincides with Hung Mun practices and how that fits in with the performance of the opera. That is interesting, irrelevant but interesting none-the-less. I get it that it's a window to the past and what the art may or may not have looked like back then. But that is still only one version, it's a linear view. There is no absolute proof that Wing Chun was one long form, 3 forms or simply San Sik in it's originality. Truth is all 3 methods were probably used interchangeably and at roughly the same time. My argument from the very beginning is.........With so many branches how could such as huge and integral part of the art be completely forgotten and overwritten as Hendrik, Sergio and others suggest with this "DNA & Engine" theory? It's bullsh!t, nothing more than a shameless ruse of self promotion and anyone who is stupid enough to blindly believe in it obviously hasn't learned any Wing Chun that is worth a d@mn. I don't care what Great Grand Poo Pah of WC you learned from, if you believe this "theory" you didn't learn sh!t.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good post.

Hendrik
04-11-2014, 10:40 AM
3. As for uniqueness, engine, kuen kuit, DNA. One only see what one can see.

For example, A differential equation looks like algebraic equation too. But they are different.
Thus, I let you find out for yourself what is the different. - HS

This response is an insult to my intellect. Your tone implies that I'm not educated.





If you like to take it that way. No one can force you to think different.

I sure often can't see what others see.

Hendrik
04-11-2014, 11:11 AM
Dave I agree that what Hendrik is showing is not all that different. But then it shouldn't be should it? It's all still WCK! But there may be some subtle nuances that don't change the engine completely, rather they just tune it up a bit. Things get altered or forgotten with time and generations. I think what is unique about YKWC is that it may be a window into what WCK looked like 150 years ago. To some that may be no big deal. I think it is kind of interesting. So I agree with Paddington in appreciating what Hendrik has been openly saying and describing recently. I haven't had any "eureka moments" either, but it is still interesting to see how he explains the biomechanics.



1. As I have mentioned previously, I am just presenting a verifiable data point in red boat era 1850.

Nothing else. But a data we today can verify and know what is likely to be at that era based on multiple sources.

Issue comes from when one read what I present and right away jump into : who is better , who is right , who is older , who is ... or I have it too....my is better then yours ..you are wrong...etc. That lead others to missed what I have posted. Which I am not going into.


2. The six core elements including the seven bows are not that difficult to understand today with our education and engineering of this era. And signature can be scan and read clearly IMHO.


Here is my model based on what I know. Not the final model but a start,

So, it is similar to a highly sophisticated robotic arm.

It has
the joints handling and mass handling system with its sequence and pattern for the task. ( biomechanics )
The fuel system (breathing)
The direction given or intelligent ( mind)
The hydrolic and electrical system ( Qi = bio chemical + bio electrical)
The force transmission and generation ( Jin or force flow trajectory and generation)
The acceration, moving, loading , unloading... Handling of the job ( momentum)


So, all of these are activate when the robotic arm is activate.
all of these are "program and train" for the robotic arm basic operation function, and also for application specific tasks.

Now, the YKSLT kuen kuit described these six core elements above with the instruction for " program and train" on basic operation function and application specific tasks of SLT of that 1850 era. Further details can be found in the mothers art documents.



So, for example, when one move ones arm to perform a tan sau. All six core elements are sync to do that tan sau task. Similar to what the robotic arm function.


Based on my understanding and verification , This above is what happen in the SLT practice. And the biomechanics are based on the seven bows handling like the robot hand has to based on it joints on degree of freedom. Then including the hydrolic, electric....etc.

Knowing these above, once one is familiar with the six core elements, one can have a good basic handling on them.

So , it is a clearly define technology. It has no room for fuzzy. Certainly not " just keep doing it and you will get there, I have it too, it is ancient secret, it is mind method....etc" but technology.

Finally, there is a term name " every point is clear" that for me, means, one has to be able to handle the seven bows clearly and clean without fuzzy or sloppy as the beginner minimum. And at higher level will be more and more elements add on top of it.



Thus, there is no need for argue. But one can scan and read out what is there similar to the technician can read out what is the status of the robot hand at every instant while perform the tast.


I hope this might help you to see these 1850 technology.



3.

With the six core elements and seven bows as reference , such as briefly introduce in Sergio YouTube on the technology ,one can actually map out and analyze what is or what is not there. What is possible and what is never touch .

Thus, my presentation is a technology , not a my lineage is better then yours, my lineage have it too, I know better then yours......etc and on and on.

My presentation is focus on the definable technology, and the technology can clearly tell, how many joints and degree of freedom or how many bows count one has, do one has a hydrolic system in place ? How about electrical? How about the fueling system? How about the GPS scan and lock in system?

It is very clear what it is .


4. Yes, since it involve biomechanics , bio electrical , bio chemical,
Modern biofeedback measurement In term of brain wave, heart best rhythm, breathing rep and volume, blood pressure , and body temperature can be done to verify the state one entering in practicing YKSLT.
With modern physics force sensors the force flow trajectory can also be examined and verify.

So, we are talking the ability of entering different mind body state. As in the emei 12 zhuang, there are nine level or nine states in the training.

These all above can be reached with modern biofeedback high tech to a large degree. So, there are things we don't see because we don't know they exist before, But now, we know the technology exist in Wck 1850.

Even the handling of the basic seven bows has : holding , all activate n the same time handling , sequencer progression handling ...etc. Which result in different type of force handling. To body feel like transparent because one is very clear in the function or operation of every joint or bow.

As the Alice in the wonderland movie says, Toto, we are not in Kansas anymore. That is what I experience when I found out the above and Ofcorse I have try with the biofeedback instruments too.

Hendrik
04-11-2014, 11:52 AM
Look at it this way
and you will see layer and layer of core elements which interact.

Hendrik
04-11-2014, 12:00 PM
If you keep thinking this and thinking 1850 is this.

You are free to think as you like.

But 1850 Wck is not this by evidence

Hendrik
04-11-2014, 12:10 PM
Btw,


It is certain now.


It is called Qi Jin because

Jin is force flow a product from biomechanics and mass manipulation. Since f=ma

Qi is biochemical + bio electical, it influence the biomechanics to implement fine tuning and also "hydrolic" effect when sync with breathing.

Thus, Qi Jin is a combination of the above.



Now, go back to your chain sun punch in your snt set practice, notice your
seven bows and your breathing.

Ask simple questions,
is all the seven bows of your body activate? How is your ground coupling ?
How is the breathing? Does it stop? Do you hold breathing? Do breathing forceful?

From these simple question you know where you stand.

Yes , Wck 1850 technology have all the above handling to very details. That's why it is named siu nim tau, the training of the details. Small means details in 1850.

BPWT..
04-11-2014, 12:50 PM
That's why it is named siu nim tau, the training of the details. Small means details in 1850.

I have no idea if that definition is correct, but I like it. :) SNT is packed full of details and information.

Hendrik
04-11-2014, 01:11 PM
I have no idea if that definition is correct, but I like it. :) SNT is packed full of details and information.


Attached is the kuit and explaination of the emei 12 zhuang, the mother art of the YKSLT , the kuit is under the "Small set" kuit . The small set is a set within the emei 12 zhuang system which has resemble with the YKSLT snake section. A section of this set is Shown in sifu Sergio video.


It says:

Heaven and earth twelve sets

Training hard needs to focus on small details

Remember this kuit while practicing

Ten thousand things source from small details.




In the explaination writing of the above kuit , it says:

everything comes from the transformation of small details.

Pay attention to every small move, every details, every details of the Qi medirians flow... That is the key of handling.




Thus, this is another data point of where and why the Siu or small of the SLT comes from.

GlennR
04-11-2014, 02:55 PM
Hi Guys,

I understand what you saying and even where Hendrik is coming from, but honestly, enough is enough. How many people from Yip Man's line goes on about their advanced version of SLT, because some lines have one. With this I'm not talking about William Cheung's version but an actual alternate version that contains turning and a small section similar to Chum Kiu, this was taught to some early Foshan students. I've seen it, I've even "practiced" it but will not make claims that it is "original" WC from 1850. I understand what Hendrik is trying to bring across, but if you look closely the agenda is still there. All this DNA and engine talk is just semantics IMO. I can appreciate variety and nuance the same as anyone else, but to hop up on the soap box and reiterate the same dribble over and over is getting redundant. I will give Hendrik credit for his research he does a good job at uncovering WC's past but it all seems to lead into the DNA & engine thing and how a 150-200 years ago it was completely different and how so much has been lost. Nothing has been lost, people just want to believe that they have in their possession something that no one else has. Wing Chun for what it is, is complete and lacks nothing that isn't necessary. I'm pretty sure as an art that visually it hasn't changed much from it's conception. It's only visually different within the lines that have other influences whether they admit it or not ex: Pao Fa Lien, Chan Family, Tang Family, Cho Family, etc....See where I'm coming from, look into it for yourselves only the lineages with obvious other art influences make unverified claims and promote an alternate spin on the history to justify their innovations. Nothing wrong with mixing it up, that's how things evolve after all, just admit to it. Doesn't matter if it happened yesterday or 200 years ago. Even Hendrik admitted that someone in Cho family altered SLT with Choy Lay Fut, could of happened 175 years ago and for all I know that's when the Kuen Kuit was written. Whose to say that their Kuen Kuit wasn't codified after the alterations were made and that's why they have a description for all the moves in SLT. Kuen Kuit proves absolutely nothing other than someone took the time to write their understanding of the art down, it is not a certificate of authenticity by any means.

I can appreciate the relevance of how the formal salutation of Cho family coincides with Hung Mun practices and how that fits in with the performance of the opera. That is interesting, irrelevant but interesting none-the-less. I get it that it's a window to the past and what the art may or may not have looked like back then. But that is still only one version, it's a linear view. There is no absolute proof that Wing Chun was one long form, 3 forms or simply San Sik in it's originality. Truth is all 3 methods were probably used interchangeably and at roughly the same time. My argument from the very beginning is.........With so many branches how could such as huge and integral part of the art be completely forgotten and overwritten as Hendrik, Sergio and others suggest with this "DNA & Engine" theory? It's bullsh!t, nothing more than a shameless ruse of self promotion and anyone who is stupid enough to blindly believe in it obviously hasn't learned any Wing Chun that is worth a d@mn. I don't care what Great Grand Poo Pah of WC you learned from, if you believe this "theory" you didn't learn sh!t.

Post of the year in my book.......... well said and absolutely spot on

GlennR
04-11-2014, 03:02 PM
If you like to take it that way. No one can force you to think different.

I sure often can't see what others see.
Have you read the "Da Vinci Code"?

Honestly, that bit of fluff has more scientific basis and research than your agenda ridden rants .

Its simple.

If your method is the "original and correct way", show us a capable fighter that can show us what we are missing.

Just one?

Well?

Minghequan
04-11-2014, 05:22 PM
One thing I'd like to raise if I may here as a White Crane stylists or even an other stylist looking in, all this back and forth stuff really doesn't make me want to know more about Wing Chun. In fact quite the opposite.

To an outsider, martial artist or not, this one up-manship, this "only I have or know the real Wing Chun" does a great dis-service to the art in all of its forms and lineages ...... just something to consider.