Anti-striking

[YouKnowWho]

Here is the "big fist" strategy:

- Hold both of your hands into a big fist.
- Hide your head behind it.
- Extend your arms toward at your opponent's face.
- Move in toward your opponent and try to use your big fist to hit on his face.
- When your opponent tries to hit your head, you use your big fist along with wedged arms to deflect your opponent's head shots.
- When your hands are close to your opponent's head, use head lock, and take him down ASAP.

Just made some video in my today's class. All comments are welcome.

1. Use "big fist" to hit on your opponent's head. The training is done for chest punch instead.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuWaAyi2KCs

[YouKnowWho]

2. Use "big fist" to deflect incoming punches.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTAd32BavQY

[YouKnowWho]

3. Use "big fist" to create a "clinch".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78tfRtp_WJ8

[YouKnowWho]

4. Use "big fist" to create a "clinch", use "clinch" to create "throw".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rPcIIRoBWo

[xinyidizi]

Is kicking or leg takedown allowed?
If his hands are higher than you what if you stick your forearm under his and push, at the same time use the other hand to strike the body or maybe uppercut? If his hands are lower then what if you break his guard from above and create a space to attack?

Also if grappling is also allowed don't you think extending the arms like that can easily be used against him?


If you are making other videos can you ask them to focus on breaking the guard before going for the head to see what happens?

[YouKnowWho]

Head shot is the main concern here. Both body shot and kicks are less threaten to a grapplier than a full powerful head shot. A grapplier should not care about his opponent to play the grappling game with him. If you consider yourself as an octopus, you will love to play the clinching game with any fish.

The main purpose of this strategy is to change a striking game into a grappling game ASAP.

[MightyB]

if you kept your hands open but in the same relative position, it might be better for self defense because it'd look less aggressive to any witnesses. Might help in a legal situation if the other person tried to sue you.

[YouKnowWho]

The main strategy is the "stiff arms". Whether you use big fist or 2 separate stiff arms, the strategy is the same. here is the original SC stiff arms without the big fist.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mEVfdsRQpM

[Firehawk4]

What if you have multiple people attacking you ?

[YouKnowWho]

What if you have multiple people attacking you ?

I assume in group fight, you still concern whether your head will be hit or not. This is the best way to protect your head from full power head shot. In any fight, if you can protect your head better, you will have much more courage.

By using this simple strategy, you head will not be hit easily.

[Faux Newbie]

If I was dealing with someone using that method, I would:

1) work on being evasive (assuming that I was trying to take advantage of striking range while the other person was not putting out strikes, but trying to avoid clinch in order to keep striking)

2) target the body and legs, watching for the guard to drop

3) Hit the head whenever the guard drops

4) Feint a lot in order to draw the guard, then try to strike where an opening is made

I think eventually, the person might very well get in close enough for throwing, but I would seek to make sure he wasn't fresh anymore when it happened.

[SPJ]

Here is the "big fist" strategy:

- Hold both of your hands into a big fist.
- Hide your head behind it.
- Extend your arms toward at your opponent's face.
- Move in toward your opponent and try to use your big fist to hit on his face.
- When your opponent tries to hit your head, you use your big fist along with wedged arms to deflect your opponent's head shots.
- When your hands are close to your opponent's head, use head lock, and take him down ASAP.

Just made some video in my today's class. All comments are welcome.

1. Use "big fist" to hit on your opponent's head. The training is done for chest punch instead.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuWaAyi2KCs

Reminding me of what to do when your hands are tied up together or handcuffed together.

:)

[YouKnowWho]

Thanks for you guy's valuable opinions.

Next week I am going to record some "double spears" strategy. The

- "big fist" strategy is to protect your center from inside out. You don't let your opponent to come into your center. You try to wrap his arm when his arm is outside of your center.
- "double spears" strategy is to protect your center from outside in. You invite your opponent to come into your center. You try to wrap his arm when his arm is in your center.

With both strategies, I think the anti-striking theory can be more convincing.

[YouKnowWho]

Reminding me of what to do when your hands are tied up together or handcuffed together.

:)
I find this one - 武松脱铐拳. The "big fist" idea was used in some system already in case you have to fight with handcuffs on.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6sKszpuBjM

[Faux Newbie]

Thanks for you guy's valuable opinions.

It's definitely interesting to consider different approaches and what to do if faced with them, it's a very fun puzzle!


Next week I am going to record some "double spears" strategy. The

- "big fist" strategy is to protect your center from inside out. You don't let your opponent to come into your center. You try to wrap his arm when his arm is outside of your center.
- "double spears" strategy is to protect your center from outside in. You invite your opponent to come into your center. You try to wrap his arm when his arm is in your center.

With both strategies, I think the anti-striking theory can be more convincing.

Interesting. I was wondering if there were other aspects you were planning on working. I'm looking forward to getting a more complete picture. Even aside from the anti-striking angle, this almost seems like an interesting format for working entry for throws against a striker, so that, even if someone was opting to use strikes, they could switch modes to big fist and the double spears in order to take the offensive into throwing range.

[Faux Newbie]

Some thoughts that came to mind watching the videos:

1) On the striking, maybe adding some more circular strikes (hooks, chops) so that, in practicing the drill, people don't get the tunnel vision of expecting things coming from their front. A good striker will use straight strikes to open up circular strikes, circular strikes to open up for straight, uppercuts to open up for straights. It seems like the straight line punches and uppercuts are well represented, an occasional hook or chop would help pressure test, imo.

2) For the striker, they could also focus on using footwork to get slightly better angles, so that the pressure test for the person doing big hands requires them to read the footwork more.

3) Gloves for the striker would also compress distance (because of the higher willingness to hit), it would be interesting to try this out and see what it is like.

4) It would be really interesting to see how you blend this with dealing with kicks. I can see a couple approaches, but I'm really curious what approach you would take.

These points are NOT critiques of the people doing the drills, more comments on the drills and thoughts that I had regarding them.

A question:

Do you think this approach blended with slipping some strikes would open the opportunity for different throws? I ask because it relates in some ways to things I am working on now, and throws are your thing. I'm finding that when I end up in a tight sort of clinch like what the videos are showing, certain throws come up often, but if I slip a strike certain ways that give me greater access to attacking limbs and higher degree of over extension on the part of an opponent, I find the opportunity for different sorts of throws. Hope my question makes sense!

[wenshu]

2. Use "big fist" to deflect incoming punches.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTAd32BavQY

uppercuts? bodyshots?

[YouKnowWho]

I was wondering if there were other aspects you were planning on working. I'm looking forward to getting a more complete picture. Even aside from the anti-striking angle, this almost seems like an interesting format for working entry for throws against a striker, so that, even if someone was opting to use strikes, they could switch modes to big fist and the double spears in order to take the offensive into throwing range.

Besides "big fist" and "double spears", I'm also working on "hook" (connect my body with my opponent's body ASAP). Many years ago, a good friend of mine said, "If I keep moving back away from you, what can you do to me?" His question had bothered me for quite some time. In the past I used to believe that I can use kick and punch to set up a throw. Now I believe I have to use kick and punch to set up a "clinch". I then use the "clinch" to set up my throw. Both "head lock (all head lock moves can be applied with over hook as well)" and "under hook (all under hook moves can be applied with waist wrap and bear hug as well)" are connect my body with my opponent's body in close distance (arm to neck, or arm to under shoulder). I would need some "hook" on the far distance such as "wrist" and "elbow".

This way, I can cover all the throwing "entering strategy" for

- head lock,
- over hook,
- under hook,
- waist wrap,
- bear hug.

If I just add in "circle running" entering strategy for "single leg", it'll get more complete.

[YouKnowWho]

uppercuts? bodyshots?
Body shots is not included. All wrestler should be able to take some body shot IMO. If you have been thrown down on the ground 200 times daily, body shots should not bother you too much. When your opponent tries to punch at your body, his head will be open up for your head lock.

[YouKnowWho]

Some thoughts that came to mind watching the videos:

1) On the striking, maybe adding some more circular strikes (hooks, chops) so that, in practicing the drill, people don't get the tunnel vision of expecting things coming from their front. A good striker will use straight strikes to open up circular strikes, circular strikes to open up for straight, uppercuts to open up for straights. It seems like the straight line punches and uppercuts are well represented, an occasional hook or chop would help pressure test, imo.

2) For the striker, they could also focus on using footwork to get slightly better angles, so that the pressure test for the person doing big hands requires them to read the footwork more.

3) Gloves for the striker would also compress distance (because of the higher willingness to hit), it would be interesting to try this out and see what it is like.

4) It would be really interesting to see how you blend this with dealing with kicks. I can see a couple approaches, but I'm really curious what approach you would take.

These points are NOT critiques of the people doing the drills, more comments on the drills and thoughts that I had regarding them.

A question:

Do you think this approach blended with slipping some strikes would open the opportunity for different throws? I ask because it relates in some ways to things I am working on now, and throws are your thing. I'm finding that when I end up in a tight sort of clinch like what the videos are showing, certain throws come up often, but if I slip a strike certain ways that give me greater access to attacking limbs and higher degree of over extension on the part of an opponent, I find the opportunity for different sorts of throws. Hope my question makes sense!
Those are good suggestions. IMO, the hook punch (or haymaker) are too easy to get arm wrapped.

It's easier to

- catch a roundhouse kick than to catch a front kick.
- wrap a hook punch than to wrap a jab or cross.

The reason is simple. Both roundhouse kick and hook (or haymaker) are committed and you can predict the incoming path.

[RenDaHai]

Excellent! I always wondered why more people don't use this.

We often call this kind of move 'KaoShou' 'to wear handcuffs' because it is like having your hands shackled together (not to actually fight in handcuffs).

It is more common to use the same strategy but one hand holding the wrist of the other (the golden lock 'JinSuo', also the 7 star position in SongShan). There are two major orientations this can be done with and you can change between them. This transformation is called the Fanzi Quan.


Keeping with this displayed technique it is VERY powerful to strike with. Simply hit the opponent straight in the face with your double fist. It hurts the knuckles only a bit but it is well enough distributed and it really really hurts the opponent when ungloved (Yes, I have been hit with it, it really pushes you back). Also hammering, thumping direct to the face. The great thing is if the opponent is only guarding with one arm you can punch through it with this. Also try switching to horizontal orientation.

If you use the classic 'JinSuo' technique described above there are a lot more changes possible. You can maintain friction and suddenly open your hands (Wusong breaks manicles) forming a VERY powerful strike (Dan Bian - 'To shoulder the whip'). In Shaolin this is the classic 'QiXing - Dan Bian' combination that is the signature of the Song Mountian Shaolin form.


It takes a human about 1/2 a second to make a decision, but only 1/5th to react. If you have to decide 'block left or right' you will never block anything. If you simply make your arms into a shield then you only have to react 'forwards!' rather than attempt a deflection. This method of blocking can actually work very well.

This method of blocking is to use a shield. There are a collection of 'shields' with the arms. Though with all of them, you must have a motive to enter, as they cannot deflect for a long time. If someone attacks the body, simply hit directly to their face with the shield itself, they cannot easily block it with just one hand. Especially as this can be powerful from the shortest range.

[wenshu]

If you have been thrown down on the ground with a rock directly under your liver/spleen/kidneys 200 times daily, body shots should not bother you too much. .

fixed that for you

[Faux Newbie]

Those are good suggestions. IMO, the hook punch (or haymaker) are too easy to get arm wrapped.

It's easier to

- catch a roundhouse kick than to catch a front kick.
- wrap a hook punch than to wrap a jab or cross.

The reason is simple. Both roundhouse kick and hook (or haymaker) are committed and you can predict the incoming path.

I agree, especially on the front kick versus round kick. But, by diversifying what the person is drilling against, even if you use chops for circular attacks instead of hook, the person doing the drill doesn't stay static, assuming high strikes coming straight in.

I agree to some extent with Wenshu, for some people, its important to consider body shots- for example, I'm pretty tall, people are going to go for my body to try to open up my head. If I'm fighting a shorter person, the reverse, I'll go for the head to open up the body. A good targeted strike hits on a smaller surface than a breakfall, so if someone works their power, and gets in close enough, it's sometimes not an issue of whether it is painful, but how much it injures. Also, I can take blows, but I tend to favor making sure I can evade or control them, just in case they're holding a knife of something like that.

[Faux Newbie]

Besides "big fist" and "double spears", I'm also working on "hook" (connect my body with my opponent's body ASAP). Many years ago, a good friend of mine said, "If I keep moving back away from you, what can you do to me?" His question had bothered me for quite some time.

Isn't it funny how one little scenario or statement sticks with you until you have to solve it? Fun puzzles.


In the past I used to believe that I can use kick and punch to set up a throw. Now I believe I have to use kick and punch to set up a "clinch".

Makes sense.

[YouKnowWho]

The big fist is like the Chinese weapon 锏(Jian). It's used to break weapon such as knife or sword. There is no way that any knife or sword can hurt 锏(Jian).

http://imageshack.com/a/img38/5219/jiany.jpg

The main purpose of the "big fist wedged arms" is like the "giant drill machine", no matter what your opponent may do to you, you always use your "drill head" to drill through your opponent's guard.

8327

[Faux Newbie]

The big fist is like the Chinese weapon 锏(Jian). It's used to break weapon such as knife or sword. There is no way that any knife or sword can hurt 锏(Jian).

http://imageshack.com/a/img38/5219/jiany.jpg

The main purpose of the "big fist wedged arms" is like the "giant drill machine", no matter what your opponent may do to you, you always use your "drill head" to drill through your opponent's guard.

8327

I'm not saying that the concept is a problem. What I'm saying is that, if faced with an opponent doing this (big hands, et al), one must use feints and strikes to draw the guard away, and then take advantage of the openings (if one wants to continue striking). So to train this sort of defense, it seems like a good idea to train it against a diversity of techniques, so that it is fluid and does not count on being able to soak up certain blows or have certain responses.

For example, in relation to the hook, you mentioned how the hook is easy enough to wrap up and throw when someone throws it. But, if someone fakes that hook to draw that response, this may break the defense and leave an opening.

My point wasn't that there is a weakness to the method you are talking about, but that, by training against a broad array of techniques with it, I think using it would become more effective. Since the trainee, in using this method in sparring and fighting, would definitely be facing people trying to pick apart this defense by way of adding in circular attacks, feints, draws, and kicks, these could be incorporated into the training.

Even if we think this attack is not our favorite because of its weaknesses, those weaknesses can be used as a lure to cause the person using big hands to break their defense in order to take advantage of the weakness. If the weakness is only bait, then it is strength.

Just my thought. It would be interesting to practice these drills where occasionally, feints were added. Occasionally kicks were added. That way, they get pressure tested, instead of counting on weathering a blow, which sometimes is good, but against some people, may mean weathering a blow from someone really strong at that blow.

The key with 锏 is that it must be in position to do its work. Same with big hands, etc. To beat them, one way is forcing them out of position and striking the opening. Thus, it seems to me that to train expertise in this defense is to train expertise in reading the opponent and being able to know when to wedge, and when not to take the bait, so that the 锏 is always in position, but without ignoring attacks that the defense is not designed to deal with, even if many times these attacks are not highly effective, sometimes they will be. We should choose when to count on iron body, not have no recourse but it.

Again, this is not criticism of the technique, I like the ideas and I'm trying to wrap my head around them and trouble shoot their practice for myself. This relates heavily to ideas of blending the distance from striking to throwing, so it's a very interesting topic to me.

[YouKnowWho]

feints were added. Occasionally kicks were added.
Agree with what you have suggested, I'll add "kicking" and "fake punch" into my Sunday class training tomorrow. May be shot some more clips for discussion.

[Faux Newbie]

Agree with what you have suggested, I'll add "kicking" and "fake punch" into my Sunday class training tomorrow. May be shot some more clips for discussion.

Cool! I was trying to think yesterday how, if I was trying to do the same sort of tactic, I would approach dealing with straight kicks without it affecting the overall goals. Interesting stuff.

[Faux Newbie]

So, I've decided to have some fun with this concept.

I tend to do an hour of shadow boxing in the mornings, I try to incorporate new stuff in that time, and I got thinking about this thread as I was deciding what I wanted to focus on next week. I'm going to mess around with ideas related to this, probably not exactly the same, but nonetheless.

So:

1) One of the things I want to use a lot of is slips, so some focus on that
2) To minimize the effects of feints, I want to train draws to entice certain attacks
3) I probably won't join hands together when doing the big fist, but a similar idea.
4) I don't intend to hold the big fists, but to fluidly adopt and abandon them, so that my draws will look enticing, will draw the right attacks, which I can then wedge and close with.
5) The focus for me will be this drawing, evasion, ending with wedging or deflecting with big hands and entering.

I'll entrain this in shadow boxing, at some point I'll work it with a partner and see how it goes...

[intercept8]

I like the way you presented the Big Fist strategy and finishing with throw. However, I think the Big Fist is too restricted, telegraphs and vulnerable. I agree with most everything Faux Newbie has mentioned. I would not want to be kicked with strong low kicks or punched in the liver. I think clasping your hands would make footwork slower. It would give the opponent a chance to control two hands with one (parry, deflect, trap, slip or side step) and strike with the other. I believe your double spears (separated hands) would be more effective as your bridge or reach to get head control will be longer and less restrictive.

The opponent in your videos is too compliant, to tell how effective the Big Fist is or isn’t. I would like to see an opponent that moves (back, lateral, pivot) and doesn’t leave his arm out to be countered and kicks.

Here is a demonstration of getting head control and throw, against a non-compliant opponent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqBoyekp_ZY @ 3:40. At 4:45 opponent uses straight punches to stop bullrush. Ronda slips, parrys, & reaches to get head control and takes down.

I like this demonstration because it shows the techniques, timing, and distance Ronda has to use, against a resisting opponent, in order to get a successful take down. Sometimes, it’s not easy to get head control with a resisting opponent (moves, circles, punches, kicks). I think self-defense techniques should be pressure tested and drilled in sparring or performed in competition.

Here is more grappling (throws, takedowns) analysis in MMA of Ronda vs Tate:

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/12/31/5257838/ufc-168-judo-chops-of-ronda-rousey-part-i-the-counter-uchi-mata

http://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comments/1u2bum/round_1_analysis_of_rousey_vs_tate_ufc_168/

[Faux Newbie]

I like the way you presented the Big Fist strategy and finishing with throw. However, I think the Big Fist is too restricted, telegraphs and vulnerable. I agree with most everything Faux Newbie has mentioned. I would not want to be kicked with strong low kicks or punched in the liver. I think clasping your hands would make footwork slower. It would give the opponent a chance to control two hands with one (parry, deflect, trap, slip or side step) and strike with the other. I believe your double spears (separated hands) would be more effective as your bridge or reach to get head control will be longer and less restrictive.

Judging by what YKW said, big spears is a separate thing. He showed one video where the hands weren't held together, but were used the same as big fists. I don't think that is big spears, big spears is something he's going to show next.


The opponent in your videos is too compliant, to tell how effective the Big Fist is or isn’t. I would like to see an opponent that moves (back, lateral, pivot) and doesn’t leave his arm out to be countered and kicks.

They weren't leaving their fists out that much, not like typical apps demos. Anything less than full speed, even in mma, means withdrawal is slower.


Here is a demonstration of getting head control and throw, against a non-compliant opponent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqBoyekp_ZY @ 3:40. At 4:45 opponent uses straight punches to stop bullrush. Ronda slips, parrys, & reaches to get head control and takes down.

I like this demonstration because it shows the techniques, timing, and distance Ronda has to use, against a resisting opponent, in order to get a successful take down. Sometimes, it’s not easy to get head control with a resisting opponent (moves, circles, punches, kicks). I think self-defense techniques should be pressure tested and drilled in sparring or performed in competition.

I always feel "...or in competition" is the last resort, "...or in sparring" is the second to last. Drilling ahead is what the best seem to do a lot of.

In fairness, YKW is working a very specific thing, and obviously open to input, so adding in variables, like in boxing and mma, is fine in increments.

I think one place that you and YKW may disagree is in the idea that only that which is already in mma and full contact venues is what works. MMA history suggests this is not true- things have consistently been added that are not new to martial arts, but newly refined for mma (a point I suspect you would agree with). I think one place you and YKW agree is that rational formats for training and testing any new thing is desirable, instead of being stuck assuming they work or don't.

In the ring is, if anything, a final lab, it is not the initial lab. One needs to entrain and refine before then, then test in drills, then test against increasingly realistic resistance.

The compliance I suspect you see has, I think, more to do with lack of gloves than aikido-like compliance. Even and especially pro fighters would really not look forward to just cold ****ing someone who is just training with bare knuckles, with a few sociopathic exceptions (not particular to mma- as martial artists, we're stuck dealing with more of them in general, I feel.) Without gloves, striking in training is even more lacking in depth.

[Faux Newbie]

Additionally, clasping the hands would not slow footwork at all, but I do think one would need to have to train separating them well, something YKW, who has thought more about this than I, may well have dealt with.

[YouKnowWho]

things have consistently been added that are not new to martial arts, but newly refined for mma ...

This is very true. I had asked my guys to test "headlock against double neck ties" in local MMA gyms. The result came out as I expected. When you put "double neck ties" on your opponent, if your opponent uses "headlock" to warp your head along with both of your arms inside, it can disable both of your arms at that moment. It's a such uncomfortable feeling. I'm sure we will see this used in UFC one of these days when people are willing to invest training time to develop a strong headlock.

[intercept8]

I always feel "...or in competition" is the last resort, "...or in sparring" is the second to last. Drilling ahead is what the best seem to do a lot of.

I agree with most of your statements. In professional competition, non-compliant opponents are moving defensively and offensively. I can study which techniques they use successfully. Then, I can take these techniques and first shadowbox, drill them (as realistically as possible), & spar with them. Then, hopefully use them in my own self-defense.



In fairness, YKW is working a very specific thing, and obviously open to input, so adding in variables, like in boxing and mma, is fine in increments.

I apologize. I took YKW’s statement (from the other thread), “I would like to be the "bridge" between the striking art and the throwing art,” too general. Forgetting he already had a specific list of entry techniques in mind. I thought I was adding something, but digressed from YKW’s original list.



I think one place that you and YKW may disagree is in the idea that only that which is already in mma and full contact venues is what works.

I realize there may be effective techniques (including YKW's, "headlock against double neck ties"), yet to be used in MMA competitions. Also, not all techniques in the closed cage are practical for the street.

There are professional judoka in MMA and Muay Thai fighters that drill, practice, and strategize getting from the kicking range, to punching, to the grappling range. Today’s technology (thanks to Youtube) allows me to view & analyze high level matches. I can leverage the top fighters’ and trainers’ experience by studying what works successfully for them in a dynamic environment and see if I can adapt any techniques (including timing, rhythm, distance) in my own self-defense.

When I see demonstrations done with stationary opponents, not retracting their punches, I question their effectiveness in a real situation (not referring to YKW’s). These techniques may work. However, the setup, positioning, timing, distance, angle, rhythm, etc . . . may need to be altered. The effectiveness of techniques can be improved by practicing (drilling) in a more realistic environment. I rather spend time training techniques that I have seen work successfully in a hostile environment.

[YouKnowWho]

When I see demonstrations done with stationary opponents, not retracting their punches, I question their effectiveness in a real situation (not referring to YKW’s).
That's a valid concern.

The only problem is if you let your opponent to attack your first, you may put too much training dependency on your opponent. Your opponent can attack you in infinite number of ways. You just can't simulate all the situations. In my personal training, I like to attack first.

I will also drill when my opponent starts his attack by punching and kicking too. But that's not the major part of my training. If my opponent commits his attack and charges in in full speed and full power, all I need to do is to raise my kick and let my opponent to run into my kick. I don't have to worry about "entry footwork", "safety concern during entry". I don't like to define my skill against what my opponent will do to me. Instead, I like to define my skill as what i can do to my opponent. I can't always assume that i can borrow my opponent's commitment by "luck". When I can force my opponent to make certain commitment, that's my skill and that's not my "luck".

In the following clip, his opponent attacks with jab and cross, he used "double spears" strategy to deflect his opponent's punch and then enter with "under hook leg spring".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtIXgZu9OcQ

[intercept8]

This may be a more likely response from an experienced counter striker, where the “big fist” would be successful in a finishing throw. Also, it doesn’t rely on timing an outstretched arm.

The big fist is thrown. The experienced orthodox striker, seeing it is slow and such a short range punch will not be threatened and not step back. He will slip to his left and attempt a liver shot to the body. The “big fister” having bridged the gap and entered the grappling range takes a step to his right to avoid the liver shot, but close enough to smother both hands. If the guard is in the way, the "big fister" pulls the guard down (jut sao), keeping the striker in close range. Then, grabs the head control and finishes the throw.

The "big fister" is successful by attacking by drawing (ABD) with “big fist” and countering the counter with jut sao, head control, and throw; attacking by combination (ABC). This can be tested, adjusted, drilled and refined. This is only one possible scenario.

[Faux Newbie]

I agree with most of your statements. In professional competition, non-compliant opponents are moving defensively and offensively. I can study which techniques they use successfully. Then, I can take these techniques and first shadowbox, drill them (as realistically as possible), & spar with them. Then, hopefully use them in my own self-defense.

I misunderstood your original statement. I totally agree on using what occurs in fighting and sparring to inform what you train.




I apologize. I took YKW’s statement (from the other thread), “I would like to be the "bridge" between the striking art and the throwing art,” too general. Forgetting he already had a specific list of entry techniques in mind. I thought I was adding something, but digressed from YKW’s original list.

I was more stating that training what we're doing to see if some elements may prove useful that aren't in common use is beneficial. I also agree that training what is in use has value, especially because it is often the case that, if I train a move with similarities to a move in common usage, I can learn more about what I do, and why the approach might be a little different.



When I see demonstrations done with stationary opponents, not retracting their punches, I question their effectiveness in a real situation (not referring to YKW’s). These techniques may work. However, the setup, positioning, timing, distance, angle, rhythm, etc . . . may need to be altered. The effectiveness of techniques can be improved by practicing (drilling) in a more realistic environment. I rather spend time training techniques that I have seen work successfully in a hostile environment.

Usually, I find moves end up altered to make them work for the stationary opponents in ways that take away from the move. For example, most throws work better in a dynamic situation (even if they may be harder to pull off), because there's a lot more momentum to work with. That said, experimenting is something I think all lifelong martial artists do, it just ends up happening. Some of the experiments are just color, some end up in the repertoire of the practitioner as bread and butter.

[Faux Newbie]

That's a valid concern.

The only problem is if you let your opponent to attack your first, you may put too much training dependency on your opponent. Your opponent can attack you in infinite number of ways. You just can't simulate all the situations. In my personal training, I like to attack first.

How I view this is, it is important to mount offenses as you say, but, in closing and in striking, it's also important to learn to read people, just as you might read the intent of someone trying to throw you in clinch, but in the longer range, sight is a huge factor. I wouldn't rely on being able to read everyone, just as I wouldn't rely on any one offense.

Also, although there are countless things an opponent can do, and training to read each one is impractical, there's only so many ways they can step, and learning to read that and knowing how that narrows their options and yours is helpful. If I'm in southpaw and my opponent is on orthodox stance, I know to watch less for the jab and more for the cross, and if he steps inside, I know he's open to my cross, and if he steps outside, I'm open to his.

Relative footwork makes the options much smaller.

[intercept8]

Yoshihiro Akiyama (mentioned in my other post) a judoka in MMA is doing a throw. This is not the exact setup or throw. However, you may find something useful for this or other throws.

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/other/grand/Throws_by_Sexyama_vs_Shields_a9fe1d84bdbd838c76a80 71fe057fe9e.gif

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/other/grand/Throws_by_Sexyama_vs_Shields_bb84cec1cb24457b38c8b 5b52383b729.gif

Akiyama throws a left, slow, lazy jab drawing a leaning, counter right cross from Shields. Akiyama slips the right cross (weight on back foot, head off center), leaving his jab out to get underhook on Shields right arm. Then, Akiyama gets correct position and completes the throw.

Here is a drill: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ7C7AoFJMY

I would drill this throw moving around. Goals of drill would be to start jab at correct distance and practice the right speed of the punch in order to draw the opponent in, leaning with momentum going forward.

In order for a successful throw, correct timing, speed, rhythm, distance, position, and weight shift are important to get the opponent to react without him knowing what your intentions are, avoiding his punch and completing the throw. IMHO, realistic drills (movement, retraction of punches, etc . . .) are important to build these skills.

In general, punching should be practiced at various speeds, rhythms, and combinations. Punches can be used for setting up other techniques (feints), occupying the center creating defense or offense. Punches can vary in speed and power to conserve energy, while keeping the opponent guessing at your intentions. An outstretched lead hand can be used to get head, hand or body control and prevent attacks.

[Faux Newbie]

I think one of the big things about practicing against striking is that, when using gloves, training partners are more likely to use realistic penetration. Without gloves, people tend to seek to barely make contact, not step with the strike to have deep penetration like in the clip above. For a good thrower/takedown artist, it's really important, I think, to be able to train against that level of penetration because you are 1) closer to the range that actually could KO you, and 2) you are much closer for throwing and takedowns. Greater risk=greater benefit for the thrower.

I think this is one thing that you are alluding to, correct, intercept8?

[Faux Newbie]

And to make clear, I am trying to play devil's advocate in order to troubleshoot all the things that could possibly help YKW, because I'm really interested in how he responds, since he knows A LOT more throws than I, so I end up knowing more. I'm totally selfish that way.

[YouKnowWho]

And to make clear, I am trying to play devil's advocate in order to troubleshoot all the things that could possibly help YKW, because I'm really interested in how he responds, since he knows A LOT more throws than I, so I end up knowing more. I'm totally selfish that way.

The only problem is sometime when I respond and give my opinion to other's suggestion, it may look like I try to "shoot down" other's suggestion (people in another forum already have such complain). Since I start this thread and try to collect as many comments as I can, I like to put myself in "listen" mode unless my opinion is requested by individual poster.

Online discussion is hard. When you see some opinion that you disagree, if you express your opinion, you may offend others. If you don't, you may offend yourself.

For example, When you use "shin bite" to force your opponent to bend his knee outward, since not everyone would test it before giving suggestion, someone may suggest that you can pick that leg up and step back on his leg. I know it's very hard to do so from my personal experience. The best way is to "escape" that leg out from the shin bite backward, and not to "pick that leg up". If I say that I disagree and give my reason why, I may offend the poster. So the best way is to say nothing at all. I have pretty good idea that if I respond to some member's post, I won't get into argument. For other members that I don't know them well enough, I try to be very cautious.

[intercept8]

The only problem is if you let your opponent to attack your first, you may put too much training dependency on your opponent. Your opponent can attack you in infinite number of ways. You just can't simulate all the situations. In my personal training, I like to attack first.

I was referring to you attacking first, also. The opponent can react in a variety of ways. They might move (step back, pivot, lateral), block, punch, or kick. But, I have never seen anyone throw a punch in the air and leave it stuck in the air, in real life. The punch is thrown and either returned back to the original guard position or left down. I am not sure, if you’re misunderstanding my meaning here. My writing may not be clear. In your “big fist” demo, the opponent is returning multiple punches.



I think this is one thing that you are alluding to, correct, intercept8?

When I say realistic drills, I do not mean full contact, power, or speed. You don’t need to wear gloves. I mean normal punches snapped back and moving of the opponent, like on the street. This way you can develop correct timing, speed, rhythm, distance, and position necessary to complete your technique. These skills can be improved with realistic drills. Just knowing the mechanics of a throw is not enough. You have to get to the right position (grappling range) and have the contact points in order to complete a successful throw.

These are only my opinions, not really suggestions. I am open to change. I do not take anything personally. After all, this is a forum where people can learn through discussion. We can agree to disagree.

[YouKnowWho]

realistic drills, ...

There are many different kind of realistic drills. If your opponent just

- keeps moving back or keeps moveing around in circle, he will not be able to help you to train anything except your chasing ability.
- over commit on his attack and run into your kick or punch, he may only help you to train certain techniques.
- throw fake punches and not commit on anything, every time you try to deflect your opponent's punch, the moment that he sees your arm is moving, the moment that he pulls his punching arm back. He may only help you to train certain skill such as "how to deal with fake attack".

So how much commitment is the right amount?

- commit on the 1st punch,
- fake on the 1st punch, commit on the 2nd punch,
- fake on the 1st and 2nd punches, commit on the 3rd punch.
- ...

The 100% commitment is easy to simulate. The partial commitment is not that easy to simulate. This is why in Chinese wrestling, we separate "partner drills" from "sparing/wrestling".

In

- "partner drills", your opponent will do whatever that will fit your need (such as full commitment on the 1st, or fake the 1st and commit on the 2nd).
- "sparring/wrestling, your opponent will try to eat you alive and not give you any opportunity at all. You have to create the opportunity all by yourself.

I know some "self-defense" MA system don't use "sport" testing format such as sparring/wrestling. In their training, they try to "simulate" the street environment. Since I don't have any experience in that kind of training method, I can't comment too much on it.

[intercept8]

Akiyama throws a left, slow, lazy jab drawing a leaning, counter right cross from Shields. Akiyama slips the right cross (weight on back foot, head off center), leaving his jab out to get underhook on Shields right arm. Then, Akiyama gets correct position and completes the throw.

In the clip, Akiyama is drawing a reaction from the opponent with his jab. He then slips the opponents punch.

Regarding timing -- as long as there is enough space in between the opponents right arm and body, Akiyama can slip the under hook in. Whether the punch is going out or snapping back to the on guard position, Akiyama has all this time to get the under hook in. He does not have to block or make contact with the opponents arm.

This is the type of timing I want to practice in my drills. But, the opponent needs to retract his punch, as in a real fight. Otherwise, I may never develop the correct timing in order to pull the throw off correctly. I want to develop the timing to get my under hook in.

[YouKnowWho]

realistic drills

If you try to develop your "under hook" skill, during training, if your opponent just raises his arm straight up in the air, you will never be able to get any "under hook" on him. You can train with him like this for 10 years, you will not be able to develop your "under hook" skill in those 10 years. Your opponent is not helping you. He is hurting your MA development.

8425

[intercept8]

So how much commitment is the right amount?

I do not understand you completely. But, here is my opinion. Taking the Akiyama vs Shields clip for example.

It is my job to set a trap, so that you will commit and throw a right cross. I have to throw my jab at the right speed (slow enough, chin exposed) and distance for you to throw a right cross. It is my job to entice you. Make you bite. It may take me more than one time for you to bite. The first time I throw a lazy jab you might move and keep your guard up. There is no opportunity (not close enough) for me to get the under hook.

So, I repeat my lazy jab (slow, chin exposed), until you throw the right cross. Hopefully, my slow jab is also setting the pace. So, that the opponent counters with a slow (or slower) right cross. When you throw the right cross, I am ready (waiting) to get my under hook in and complete my throw.



Here is a drill: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ7C7AoFJMY

The important point in the drill is to have the opponent throw the punch and retract it at normal, realistic speed. This way I can develop the correct timing. If the opponent keeps his punch out in the air (doesn’t retract it) in the drill, I will develop a false sense of security and not develop any timing skill. My lazy jab (slow, chin exposed) lulls the opponent to commit and throw the right cross. Then, I quickly change the speed (rhythm) to fast and get my under hook in.

[intercept8]

realistic drills

If you try to develop your "under hook" skill, during training, if your opponent just raises his arm straight up in the air, you will never be able to get any "under hook" on him.

I don't understand. I never said have the opponent raise his arm straight up in the air. I am into realistic reaction drills, not unrealistic.



The important point in the drill is to have the opponent throw the punch and retract it at normal, realistic speed. This way I can develop the correct timing. If the opponent keeps his punch out in the air (doesn’t retract it) in the drill, I will develop a false sense of security and not develop any timing skill. My lazy jab (slow, chin exposed) lulls the opponent to commit and throw the right cross. Then, I quickly change the speed (rhythm) to fast and get my under hook in.

The clips I showed is a real competition, nothing fake. Here is another throw, with the similar entry. Akiyama is carrying his hands low, leaving chin exposed to set trap, draw attention or attack. Akiyama draws Shields' attention high with sleight feint, then completes the low leg reap or throw. (I think all the examples I have given, started offensively not waiting for the opponent.):

http://gifsforum.com/images/gif/other/grand/Throws_by_Sexyama_vs_Shields_75869e33fbd2a160024a5 204147a6d0e.gif


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY5Gsl7Dg6g

IMHO, you can analyze the clip. Then, create a realistic drill. It seems to me that Akiyama is slowly taking three small steps forward (creating a slow pace) with hands carried low, leaving chin exposed (setting trap, draw attention or attack) and Shields is taking two slow small steps backwards. Then, Shields seems to be stopping and taking a tiny step forward with his lead foot, wanting to set and start an offense. But before Shields can set and launch an offense, Akiyama feints high with left hand (Shields reacts by leaning back, weight shifted to back foot, and lifting front foot in the air. Shields is unbalanced, momentum falling backwards.). Then, Akiyama quickly pendulum steps and completes the low, leg reap throw.

This is the timing. I want to use my peripheral vision and watch for the opponent to take the tiny step forward. Then, I high feint with left hand (unbalancing opponent), pendulum step and attack with low, leg reap throw. I want to drill and spar to practice setting the trap, setting the pace (slow, then fast), timing, distance, position and throw. Adjustments can be made as needed.

IMHO, I like to see what’s working for high level, professional fighters in a hostile environment. I like to leverage their training, trainers, techniques (pressure tested), strategies and experience (years of sparring and professional matches). I like to learn what their game plan is (if any) and how they set their traps. I want to learn and see if there is anything that I can use or adapt to my own personal self-defense. Not all techniques will work in the street. Also, physical build and ability may not be the same as the professional. So, I have to use, adapt and throw out what's not useful for me. But, I still might learn something from it.

[YouKnowWho]

The clips I showed is a real competition, ... I don't understand. I never said have the opponent raise his arm straight up in the air. I am into realistic reaction drills, not unrealistic.
I think we are missing each other here. Your clips are "sparring clips" and not "training clip". You are talking about

- "sparring/wrestling (testing stage) - you don't know what your opponent is going to do to you", and not
- "partner drills (developing stage) - you know exactly what your opponent is going to do to you" here.

The "sparring/wrestling (testing stage)" is after the "partner drills (developing stage)". You have first develop your skill before you can test it.

We may have different definition about the word "realistic" here. My definition of "realistic" is "to use the right counter to deal with the right attack". If you try to use "under hook" on your opponent, he will raise his arm straight up in the air to "escape" out of your "under arm". To me, that's the most realistic respond your opponent should do at the particular moment.

[Faux Newbie]

- "partner drills", your opponent will do whatever that will fit your need (such as full commitment on the 1st, or fake the 1st and commit on the 2nd).


I think for training, this is the approach to commitment that yields results for more open (fighting and sparring) skill.

By drilling the technique with partners working variations that they agree on, it's like inoculating against disease, they are exposed to the contexts in training all the time, and when it comes up in a live situation, they don't necessarily make up their response right there, they've trained it. So I agree with you totally.

As far as committing on strikes, I'm more saying that gloves have a place, they don't have to be used all the time, they are a tool for one use.

Without gloves, if a partner is throwing strikes like they would when they try to hit someone, the occasion where, in the drill, the person working a technique against that punch doesn't do it perfectly (this is practice, after all) is really going to get punched, especially if their partner is an equal, especially if the partners are skilled. It will be a bare knuckle punch, and it will sometimes cause damage.

If these techniques are drilled all the time this way, then we should assume that they are constantly having their cheeks broken, noses broken, etc, or we should assume that the striker is not as skilled.

That this doesn't happen is not because people may lack skill at striking, but because people without gloves in training really don't punch the way they would if they were trying to effectively hit a target, they do something very different, which is a tendency to punch at the surface and not seek penetration. The punch may be fine, except in how it relates to the target. Training this way can lead to defending strikes that mean nothing, cannot hurt me.

There is a stage where this is adequate, but sometimes, I think it is important to drill against a more committed strike, and heavy gloves (NOT competition gloves, which are intended to allow knock outs) are a perfect tool for this.

Of course, some things, gloves prevent, and one must avoid defenses that only work because the glove is so large, just as one wouldn't fight a moving opponent as though they are a wooden dummy. Gloves are a good tool, nothing more. There's every reason to use them at times, especially if developing approaches to counter striking, in my opinion.

[Faux Newbie]

The only problem is sometime when I respond and give my opinion to other's suggestion, it may look like I try to "shoot down" other's suggestion (people in another forum already have such complain). Since I start this thread and try to collect as many comments as I can, I like to put myself in "listen" mode unless my opinion is requested by individual poster.


I get this. I was trying to clarify that I'm playing devil's advocate, normally, if you are talking about throws, I'm in listening mode.

[intercept8]

I think we are missing each other here. Your clips are "sparring clips" and not "training clip".

I posted the same partner drill link multiple times (see post #47 above). This is the partner drill for the under hook throw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ7C7AoFJMY

This is a training clip. The partner drill is realistic enough, IMO. Two people work together to develop skills. You both know what each other are going to do. But, you can also move around a little. A realistic drill does not have to be full contact, power or speed.

An unrealistic drill is when someone throws a punch, leaves his arm out stuck in the air for too long (does not retract) or doesn't move around naturally.



If you try to use "under hook" on your opponent, he will raise his arm straight up in the air to "escape" out of your "under arm". To me, that's the most realistic respond your opponent should do at the particular moment.

If I understand you correctly, you believe the under hook throw practice drill and clip Akiyama performs is unrealistic. Because, the opponent can easily escape. However, the clips are from a professional match, UFC 144. They get paid to fight and beat each other. The under hook throw worked successfully here, no escape. The other throw was not an under hook throw. But, it was also successful. One throw the opponent’s momentum was going forwards. The other throw opponent’s momentum was going backwards. In Akiyama's mind he scored the points for a successful throw, that's what was important to him.

When showing the clips, I am not focusing on the final throw itself. Both throws start at a kicking or punching range transitioning to the grappling range. Both throws start with offense, not waiting for the opponent. This is the part I was focusing on. I am not advocating any particular throw (e.g., under hook). I am advocating the setup, entry, pace, feints, varying speeds, traps, distance timing, position, unbalancing, etc . . . leading up to the throw.

Once you have the opponent with all his weight on his back foot, front foot off the ground and momentum going backwards, you might be able to do a different throw or another attack. IMHO, I think all the skills (setting the trap, timing, distance, etc . . .) leading up to getting your opponent unbalanced are transferable to other throws. You can use the same skills with different throws. These skills are worth shadow boxing, drilling, practicing, sparring, and using in real fights.

[Faux Newbie]

I don't think anyone is suggesting leaving the punch out.

I also think one of the points is that, in drilling something, if your partner is working neutralizing what you are trying to drill, it defeats the purpose.

That aside, I think most would agree that, in drilling, simple footwork by the partner that makes it so that the person drilling the technique has the ability to adjust and still do the technique is good. Footwork designed to foil the technique screw up the drill, so obviously things like disengaging continuously on a drill is not helpful.

Feints by the practitioner or their partner should only initially be involved when drilling that technique with feints, after drilling it a good amount without, imo. Only after both steps do I find it useful to have feints in the general drill.

One thing I've been thinking about with the big hands strategy is the idea of giving the appearance of dedicating to striking, so that the intent to seek bridging is hidden. I kind of like this idea, especially with an opponent you don't know.

I guess this would be the way I would work on techs goes this way:

Step 1: The person providing the target for the technique being drilled uses basic shuffle steps, seeking to attain the angle opening that the strike he or she is supposed to be providing works well at, while the practitioner drills the technique. The attacker is only using basic footwork to create the opening, no feints, the person practicing the drill uses no draws. This way, the strike is more realistic (not striking toward a closed defense) and the application is more difficult (because the defender cannot draw the response they want).

Step 2: The defender can use draws.

Step 3: The attacker can feint

Step 4: All of the above

This avoids the following pitfalls:

Pitfall 1: The defender is weak on the technique, but because the attacker is always coming straight in, they can always hold a strong defense and have that advantage.

Pitfall 2: The defender is weak on the technique, but because they are good at the draw, they can make do.

Pitfall 3: The defender is good on the technique, but overconfident in it, and so does not take advantage of drawing responses from the attacker to make the opportunity.

Pitfall 4: The defender is good on the draw and the technique, but susceptible to feints.

I also like to do either/or drills AFTER the above sort of drilling is strong, so that, if I were trying to work YKW's program so that I could do it well, I would then make drills that force either big hands or spear hands, with the attacker selecting either one mode of attack that is common and is defended well by big hands, or one that is common and is well defended by spear hands. That way, choosing on the fly is worked on. I do this a lot with high and low, where the attacker can jab or low line lead leg kick, that way I don't get tunnel vision, I have to look for attack from various directions. In the case of throwing, I think it's more complex, but still doable.

I've been messing around with the big hands in drills, not to do without striking (I like striking and have long reach), but as a type of entry (there are others I work). I'm going to meet with a group of friends soon to test things I've been working on, I'm thinking this is going to work well. I tend to slip toward the rear quadrants to force my opponent to reach or go for my lead leg or my legs, I think with that, an approach like the big draw will work well as a more forward driving technique. As I got examining it, it and spear hands relate closely to two of the most represented of what are called the Eight Hands of the style I do.

It's funny that you mention raising the arm in relation to the underhook. There's a technique I do a ton that relates to that.

[Faux Newbie]

I think one of the things being missed here is developing drills off of YKW's repertoire is the point not Akiyama's. there will be overlap, of course, but it is YKW's techs that he is ultimately working on conveying.

[YouKnowWho]

I guess this would be the way I would work on techs goes this way:

Step 1: The person providing the target for the technique being drilled uses basic shuffle steps, seeking to attain the angle opening that the strike he or she is supposed to be providing works well at, while the practitioner drills the technique. The attacker is only using basic footwork to create the opening, no feints, the person practicing the drill uses no draws. This way, the strike is more realistic (not striking toward a closed defense) and the application is more difficult (because the defender cannot draw the response they want).

Step 2: The defender can use draws.

Step 3: The attacker can feint

Step 4: All of the above.

If your opponent attacks with

- full force, you can borrow his commitment.
- partial force and change, you can borrow his change.

Both are good training.

[intercept8]

Faux Newbie,

Do I understand your Step 1, correctly? Big Fist is the grappler. He initiates by punching with a fully committed “big fist.” Opponent will counter the “big fist.”

Is the opponent a MMA or strictly striker? If opponent is a MMA, he might counter with kicks, punches, takedowns or throws. If he is strictly a striker, he will tend to retract punches and not try to wrestle.



(because the defender cannot draw the response they want).

I am confused on this part. Can Big Fist choose to strike low or high? Can Big Fist choose to carry the “big fist” guard low or high? If so, that may draw a different counter from opponent.

Big Fist and opponent will start with guards up, starting from a kicking or punching range, not a grappling range. Big Fist is in a southpaw stance. Assuming most strikers are orthodox, I would have opponent stand in orthodox stance (left hand forward).


I think one of the things being missed here is developing drills off of YKW's repertoire is the point not Akiyama's.
Got it. :D

[Faux Newbie]

If your opponent attacks with

- full force, you can borrow his commitment.
- partial force and change, you can borrow his change.

Both are good training.

Interesting! I hadn't really thought of the second part. Nice...

[Faux Newbie]

Faux Newbie,

Do I understand your Step 1, correctly? Big Fist is the grappler. He initiates by punching with a fully committed “big fist.” Opponent will counter the “big fist.”

No. The one using big fist, the grappler, is more responding. His partner is using strikes, initially hand strikes. Later, strikes are added in, but since the big fist is more focused on against hand strikes, that would seem to be the focus, footwork against kicks, big hands against strikes, if I understand correctly.


Is the opponent a MMA or strictly striker? If opponent is a MMA, he might counter with kicks, punches, takedowns or throws. If he is strictly a striker, he will tend to retract punches and not try to wrestle.

At the outset, training partners in mma also don't just counter what their partner is working on. So at the outset, it is against specific things, strikes, then trained with more complexity. Also, even even grapplers retract strikes unless the strike is also a throw/takedown, as far as I know.


I am confused on this part. Can Big Fist choose to strike low or high? Can Big Fist choose to carry the “big fist” guard low or high? If so, that may draw a different counter from opponent.

Again, countering in drills is used way past the initial phases in mma. In short, people work the move to be countered before they work its counters, otherwise they don't even understand what they are countering. I'm talking about drilling big fist and things like it. I suppose you could look at it as a counter to a strike that is grappling, but in training it initially, allowing counters, as YKW pointed out, basically puts the person trying to drill a technique in a place where their opponent is doing counters knowing that they are going to do that technique. They will end up with a crap counter, because they will be working it against someone who is not being allowed time to hone the tech they are trying to counter.


Big Fist and opponent will start with guards up, starting from a kicking or punching range, not a grappling range. Big Fist is in a southpaw stance. Assuming most strikers are orthodox, I would have opponent stand in orthodox stance (left hand forward).

Most kung fu people are southpaw, because in close, the usual argument (strongest hand in rear) doesn't hold the same weight. In close, the lead hand cannot strike without the rear hand opening the way in many cases, and the lead hand has more penetration. Since kung fu seeks to end up in and out of different ranges, the loss of power at the outside range is worth it. Also, not letting people choose their favored stance makes a bunch of people who can't fight against southpaws well, or against orthodox's well, imo, so I let people take their position, but from there, they should hold that approach more than its opposite in striking. None of this applies to throwing and takedowns, as they need to work from every relative stance, imo.


Got it. :D[/QUOTE]

[Faux Newbie]

I think, accepting the logic that YKW is trying to work with, I should make it clear that I am viewing the one doing big hands as not striking during the drills. When I describe how this may influence my drills, I am including me striking. Just trying to make myself clear.

[intercept8]

Faux Newbie,

Thanks. I just wanted to be clear on how you were setting up your drill.

I was a little confused from YKW’s comments. The drill showed opponent striking, first. But, the comments he made seem to show he likes to punch (initiate) first to engage opponent. (Although, he said he starts drills both ways; initiating and defending.)




Post #1 - Move in toward your opponent and try to use your big fist to hit on his face.

Post #35 - That's a valid concern.

The only problem is if you let your opponent to attack your first, you may put too much training dependency on your opponent. Your opponent can attack you in infinite number of ways. You just can't simulate all the situations. In my personal training, I like to attack first.

[YouKnowWho]

I was a little confused from YKW’s comments. The drill showed opponent striking, first. But, the comments he made seem to show he likes to punch (initiate) first to engage opponent. (Although, he said he does drills both ways, initiating and defending.)
I assume we are still talking about "big fist" here. For simplicity, the "big fist" is used to get a "head lock" on your opponent.

[intercept8]

I assume we are still talking about "big fist" here. For simplicity, the "big fist" is used to get a "head lock" on your opponent.

Yes. To my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong), Big Fist (you) punches towards opponent's face, with "big fist." Opponent counters with punches. Then, Big Fist (you) gets "head lock." You don't want to wait for your opponent.

[YouKnowWho]

Yes. To my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong), Big Fist punches towards opponent's face, with "big fist." Opponent counters with punches. Then, Big Fist gets "head lock." You don't want to wait for your opponent.

That's the correct process. To make it a bit more complicate, you will always start from a knee kick. Instead of to wait for your opponent to kick you, you kick him first, and put him in defense mode. If your opponent kicks you first, you will use different drills to deal with that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q4VJ4IiTXE

[Faux Newbie]

Okay, sorry about that, I missed that point. With the kick, it makes sense to me, as the kick provides a real threat. Without, since, by having the hands close, you lose reach (as opposed to strikes, where one arm reaches and the opposite shoulder retracts, providing some power and reach), in order to get in range to make the big fists a realistic threat, you use your forward body position and forward movement to allow you to be in a closer range, thus also in range for the takedown/throw. I follow now.

[YouKnowWho]

The knee kick and foot sweep are the most safe kicks to apply when using "entering strategy". The "knee kick" play a very important part of the training. It's always be better to put your opponent in defense mode.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRPSQS9HCDQ

[intercept8]

Ranges:

For simplicity, say there are 3 ranges of combat:
1) Long – just outside of kicking range
2) Medium – kicking, punching
3) Close – clinch, head lock

If I stay in the medium to long range, it will be more difficult for Big Fister to get me in a head lock. Excluding kicks, I might try hooks or check hooks at angles constantly staying in medium to long range to punch Big Fister in the face, like this:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0exnUHIIPE

or

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIYFjSG4wRQ

A similar drill could be done with Big Fister throwing “big fist” and opponent pivoting & trying to punch big fist in the face with hooks. I would be interested in how this works out.

[YouKnowWho]

If I stay in the medium to long range, it will be more difficult for Big Fister to get me in a head lock.
This is why the guy with big fist has to move in by using knee kick or foot sweep to close in. The big fist is only used in the punching range unless you hold a big fist and run toward your opponent like a mad man.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bDuztfCL8g

[intercept8]

This is why the guy with big fist has to move in by using knee kick or foot sweep to close in.

Or you could step on his foot :p:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDlUZ_QLXOs

[YouKnowWho]

To step on your opponent's knee is even better. The moment that your opponent looks down, the moment that you punch at his face.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8ZpO3yhEnM

[Faux Newbie]

The distinction between the knee kick and some foot stomps is often one of target selection.:D