A data point from 1848 era [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Hendrik

04-17-2014, 09:48 PM

Hello Hendrik,

I agree with most of what you are relaying, however, I'd like to address a couple issues.

1. Being a long fist stylist I feel that the holding of structure as you describe it is not totally accurate, it depends on the method of long fist. Some methods employ continuous movement that contracts and expands weaving in and out of the long bridge and short bridge. This is done as a counter measure for collision, it allows one to gauge the gap and control the inside line from varying distances. In short the movement is not linear or static, the geometric shape changes slightly to compensate for distance.

2. I agree that Biu Jee is not effective offensively using the long fist "engine" but defensively it's a different story. The large circling movements are used in much the same manner as I described above, albeit not generally in an offensive manner. Defensively as a means of wrapping up or escaping it's performed in much the same manner as long fist.

I just wanted to clarify a couple of points that weren't readily addressed. All in all I generally agree with your assesment on the mechanics of the bridging.

1. Sure,
long fist art like clf is dynamic. Western boxing is Also dynamic. In contrast to some other southern fist style.

2. I would say, the close body or short strike art support engine is both defensive and offensive in the same time.

One can't seperate the ying and yang , they exist in the same instant, one cannot seperate the action and reaction force , the couple exist in the same time,

Or it is better to called is able to recieve and issue in the same time instead of offensive and defensive.

When entering into force flow art or close body art, it is not longer the long fist type of offensive and defensive paradigm.

One can't think of short strike art with long fist art logic.

Saying defensive means one has already lost one could in timing. And Wck a short strike art is a proactive art which is not doing defensive.

Either one can deliver the inch power in biu Jee set or one is using a long fist engine which is not effective . IMHO

In addition, IMHO
One really can't practice the SNT the way of holding structure , locking yjkym, holding breathing to get a result to support the fluid short strike art which never stop moving at close body range and playing with force flow or inch power continuously. It seems that Some how, some one makes an evolution from 1848 data point long time ago

The biomechanics just doesn't add up for the short strike art which heavily emphasis in enter the body or get close and dynamic close body force flow handling " inch Jin m come accept go return..." A reality we the modern wcners has to face.

Hendrik

04-17-2014, 10:25 PM

I get what your saying, hard to perform Lin Sil Dai Da from long bridge and be efficient. I also agree with your comments on SNT as far as the holding of structure and expecting to generate fluidity and force, not effective at all. That really describes to me a "dead" method of chi gung as opposed to a "live" method of Gung Fat.

Good post Hendrik.

Agree.

The bottom line is :

Type of art, technics, power generation, and biomechanics have to add up. Otherwise it will be a disaster.
May be I say this will get many people to be upset. But realisticaly, this is what is needed to be face in the modern world because it got to be scientific otherwise it become a religion. Now we do have enough ancient evidence to say the ancient wcners are in fact scientific .

So, when Sergio , in his video, brought up on put things back in to the set. It is an honest sincere words. If we want the set to function effectively , we need to really look into the topic. To the minimum, IMHO, one needs the bardic seven bows handling .

One really can't do Wck with hung gar or clf engine. But lots of us doesn't realize there are long fist art and short strike art exist in 1848. Instead keep thinking everything is long fist art.

IMHO, it is similar to renessance era, the church wants it to be one way and their way, but the people starts noticing something is not add up.

Hendrik

04-17-2014, 10:52 PM

Another thing can be brought up is gung fat cannot be just san sik.
Wck set is not just San sik add together.

Look at the San sik, is it a long fist art or a short strike art? How is the engine development to support it....etc. we can see, the long fist and short strike issue rarely being bought up in past 80 years. Thus, the evolution has been diverted in many directions.

Just take a look at Bruce lee closing the gap concept and Wck entering the body or get close in. These are telling one they are different art, heading in a different direction. Evidentally, Bruce lee inch punch is not the same with ancient Wck inch power which supporting short strike art.

The research of Wck history is important because it is from the proper history research that we know how the ancient art big picture is. And as how one to evolve his Wck for the future. It is everyone's free choice. But atleast we know Wck is a short strike art to begin with, And one can proceed from that.

KPM

04-18-2014, 03:46 AM

Another thing can be brought up is gung fat cannot be just san sik.
Wck set is not just San sik add together.

Please explain to me how taking...let's say the Yip man SNT form...and practicing it as individual sections separately vs. practicing it all as one piece is any different. The form actually separates the sections and comes to a slight pause each time you bring your fists back to the chest at the same time. Why would practicing each of these sections separately develop "gung fat" less than practicing them added together?

Look at the San sik, is it a long fist art or a short strike art? How is the engine development to support it....etc. we can see, the long fist and short strike issue rarely being bought up in past 80 years. Thus, the evolution has been diverted in many directions.

I don't understand what you are saying here. What San Sik are "long fist art"?

Just take a look at Bruce lee closing the gap concept and Wck entering the body or get close in. These are telling one they are different art, heading in a different direction. Evidentally, Bruce lee inch punch is not the same with ancient Wck inch power which supporting short strike art.

How does that have anything to do with training in a San Sik format?

The research of Wck history is important because it is from the proper history research that we know how the ancient art big picture is. And as how one to evolve his Wck for the future. It is everyone's free choice. But atleast we know Wck is a short strike art to begin with, And one can proceed from that.

Well, in researching WCK history you will discover that Leung Jan taught Wing Chun in a San Sik format when he retired to Ku Lo village. Are you saying that he didn't develop "gung fat" and didn't know the "short strike art" because he trained in a San Sik format rather than as one long continuous form? This is an honest question because I don't understand what you are trying to say in your last post.

KPM

04-18-2014, 05:38 AM

Thanks Dave. I likely did misunderstand Hendrik's reference to Long and Short Bridge arts. But this part needs clarification because Hendrik has already stated on this forum that you cannot train "gong" in San Sik format and that any art without the SLT form is incomplete. So to me he is not implying a binding element, because he has outright stated in the past that Wing Chun trained in San Sik format cannot develop the proper "gong." So he needs to clarify.

He was implying that there is a binding element to the San Sik that creates Gung Fat and that without the binding element there is no Gung Fat.

Hendrik

04-18-2014, 06:27 AM

Hi guys,

The following might help.

So,

According to YKSLT part 1 practice,

There is a gung fat for short strike art based on emei technology embedded in SNT.

It is A six steps sequencing process cover six core elements. It is a six steps development process. Process is gong fat.

This gong fat I explicitly systematically describe it here and named it as the formulae 2014 in my YouTube.

Formulae 2014

Step:
1. Collect the intention union with awareness on equal shoulder stance. (Loose expand )
2. Meeting in lower abdomen breathing is smooth ( deep breathing)
3. Snake slide worm move joins progressively link ( joins handling)
4. Couple with ground needs the feet bow ( ground coupling)
5. Seven bows align into a path way for Jin or force flow ( Force flow path construction )
6. Action and reaction force handling develop Jin or force flow ( force flow handling)

Formulae 2014 embedded within YKSLT part 1, which is actually a common denominator in older SNT set such as YKS SNT. Yip man SNT has evolved away the section 2. But still preserve it in the Yip Man biu Jee set.

The following is where the formulae 2014 exactly locate within the snt set.

section 1, yjkym section implement step 1 and 2.
Develop loose expand , deep breathing, and grow Qi

Section 2, snake reel section implement step 3.
Develop joins handling and adaptive

Section 3, Sam pai fut section imolement step 4, 5, 6
Develop ground coupling, force flow path, and force flow handling.

So, if one doesn't go through the six steps in a step by step progressive way after every miles stone develop, one will not develop the gong. If one mis a step , one will never get the target result . If one have totally no idea on these steps and process, one cannot develop the Kung.

In today's language, This is a software , the hard ware or SNT cheography is there but needs software to training the hard ware.

San sik, is not doing the above. But a scenerio of application. Everything has their place but they are different.

If one doesn't practice or implement the above gong fat or process or formulae 2014 intentionally within SNT more then one hundred hours , one really doesn't know what it is. Usually needs a thousand hour to have a good handling.
So, no, just practice SNT doesn't get one there.

Gong fat is what only teach to the inner circle in the ancient, San sik can teach to every students. Without the gung fat development San sik really doesn't function well.

For example , in the YouTube above, I enter my body to stick at the woodern dummy range which is the sweet spot of Wck 1848 IMHO , from fist range , to elbow , to shoulder range. And play there .

In today's language, That is just a biu Jee set equivalent type of enter the body San sik. But without the gong fat of formulae 2014 develop in SNT. I can not do that but will default into long fist art type of biomechanics. Which really doesn't work well in that range.

Thus, there are the body gong and application or sau faat. The gong faat and sau faat. One needs both to get a compete art. Usually, in ancient only sau faat is teaches, but San gong hidden. Thus, that is a major cause of the losing of the art because when the short strike art San gong is replace by the long fist San gong. That is the beginning of in effective and chaos evolution. IMHO.

So, when say SPM Sam Bo ging or taiji or western boxing is import into SNT , one have to ask, is it still short strike art?

I am not saying who is original or pure or olderst, but based on technology things has to add up. And we do see issue in passing the art in the history record via the tendency,

These is just what happen in the history as I have seen. IMHO.

Vajramusti

04-18-2014, 06:50 AM

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1265495]Hi guys,

The following might help.

So,

According to YKSLT part 1 practice,

There is a gung fat for short strike art based on emei technology embedded in SNT.

It is A six steps sequencing process cover six core elements. It is a six steps development process. Process is gong fat.

This gong fat I explicitly systematically describe it here and named it as the formulae 2014 in my YouTube.

Formulae 2014

Step:
1. Collect the intention union with awareness on equal shoulder stance. (Loose expand )
2. Meeting in lower abdomen breathing is smooth ( deep breathing)
3. Snake slide worm move joins progressively link ( joins handling)
4. Couple with ground needs the feet bow ( ground coupling)
5. Seven bows align into a path way for Jin or force flow ( Force flow path construction )
6. Action and reaction force handling develop Jin or force flow ( force flow handling)

Yip man SNT has evolved away the section 2. But still preserve it in the Yip Man biu Jee set.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

??? Depends

kung fu fighter

04-18-2014, 08:38 AM

Without the gong fat of formulae 2014 develop in SNT. I can not do that but will default into long fist art type of biomechanics. Which really doesn't work well in that range.

So, when say SPM Sam Bo ging or taiji or western boxing is import into SNT , one have to ask, is it still short strike art?

Excellent post, this is exactly my opinion as I have stated to Hendrik though email

Hendrik

04-18-2014, 08:59 AM

Excellent post, this is exactly my opinion as I have stated to Hendrik though email

That's why I make the video above. Most of us has no idea what kind of art the ancient has and how they think and practice.

Today, you look at all those SNT with triangle geometry structures holding, yjkym clamping knees.. Sinking elbow into center line ..etc.

Ask a qustion, with those type of conditioning in biomechanics , how is that support one to enter the body or stick body?

Sure those geometry holding will support one in the long fist range impact or get better ice breaker or more power to fight force against force. But does it works ? Or it will become a target of the long fist art such as western boxing and close body art such as bjj? The reality is infront of our eyes. We just don't want to admit it and keeping thinking " some days magic will happen, and in the same time import western boxing and bjj technics " is that Wck? Until one be honest to one self. One really can't go that far.

As for the ancient secret? IMHO, there is none goes beyond scientific and biomechanics.

Saying these above, I sure could become a hang man of many others, but I think the Wck ancestors would like us to see the facts instead of lost in our own thinking. Because only facing reality one can stand solid and tall.

Hendrik

04-18-2014, 09:19 AM

Many has message me wanting to study the YKSLT .
Here, I reply everyone.

You don't need to, what you need is the process not the cheography .

Just go watch my utube on formulae 2014. Watch the utube on restoring the SNT.

Just use that process in your SNT, disregard of lineage, see for yourself how things changes in one week with daily practice. Of thirty mins.

If you need to open your body more because SNT is difficult to handle , read the yik kam transform ebook , watch the YouTube, and practice the drill 20 mins per day.

So, you can use yik kam transform as an intermediate step before the SNT.

That simple.

50 mins a day for two three week will show you result.

Why do I know? Because many who I have not meet in person but follow the above get result in three weeks. Sure, it will different person to person, but the basic result is certain.

I am here to chat and exchange in Wck technology , not interested in lineage pushing , personal lifting , or money making.

The agenda is all wcners benifit.

Kpm,
You don't get this gong fat in san sik . And all older snt comes with it.

kung fu fighter

04-18-2014, 09:59 AM

wing chun will never work by using long fist art power generation, no matter how hard or how many years you practice. You can't beat a long fist art such as western boxing or CLF at their own game since that's what their art is designed to do, instead I believe wing chun was designed to specialized in close range fighting where we will take away their advantage and implement ours by not giving them the necessary space to function or to generate power.
Remember every art has it's strengths and weakness, wing chun's strength are in close, while it's weaknesses are in long range or on the ground in a grappling scenerio.

KPM

04-18-2014, 10:32 AM

Saying these above, I sure could become a hang man of many others, but I think the Wck ancestors would like us to see the facts instead of lost in our own thinking. Because only facing reality one can stand solid and tall.

Ok Hendrik. I see that you are not just speaking against KLPSWCK because it is San Sik based, but rather against everyone's SLT practice! But I understand what you are saying. I may give it a try! ;) Thanks for the explanation in your other post.

Hendrik

04-18-2014, 11:53 AM

1) what does the word/term 'gong' mean? (I think 'fat' means method?). And, he also spells gong as gung... are they the same thing? ------

Gong or gung or Kung means "skill " " capability"

2) can someone give an example using "today's terminology" of what "gong fat" is/does to a wing chun response (say, something like Tan sau and punch or pak sau and punch, etc)? ------

For example

Say Punching ,

Wck doesn't pull back to punch , Wck punch doesn't work like the long fist art which using the 40cm clearance space to generate accelerate the strike.

Thus, with Wck gong fat, wcner can strike without that 40cm space needed. That is the well known inch punch.

On the other hand,
if wcner need that 40cm clearance to strike, it doesn't work well with Wck strategy which occupied the 40cm space to jam the long fist art, And it doesn't have any advantage over the long fist .

Snt needs the emei mother art technology because the snake slide worm move technology of emei , is responsible to have fine handling of joints, which lead to force flow and fast acceration handling.

3) what does it mean: "Gong fat is what only teach to the inner circle"? -----

Be able to do a strike without pulling back punch and not using the 40 cm clearance means inch power ability. Only inner circle students are taught and develop this power generation which is critical to support the Wck strategy.

I'm trying to follow this conversation topic but the section I quoted above from Hendrik doesn't make sense yet. Thanks guys. ------

Hope it make sense for you now.

Hendrik

04-18-2014, 11:59 AM

Ok Hendrik. I see that you are not just speaking against KLPSWCK because it is San Sik based, but rather against everyone's SLT practice! But I understand what you are saying. I may give it a try! ;) Thanks for the explanation in your other post.

Great !

I don't want to be the smart A$$ that everyone wants to hang. But there are certain message if we don't share we screw the Wck ancestors and future wcners big time.

Hendrik

04-18-2014, 12:01 PM

wing chun will never work as by using long fist art power generation, no matter how hard or how many years you practice. You can't beat a long fist art such as western boxing or CLF at their own game since that's what their art is designed to do, instead I believe wing chun was designed to specialized in close range fighting where we will take away their advantage and implement ours by not giving them the necessary space to function or to generate power.
Remember every art has it's strengths and weakness, wing chun's strength are in close, while it's weaknesses are in long range or on the ground in a grappling scenerio.

One can't be a cat and a bird and a fish in the same time. So, a bird needs to be a bird first . Not trying to be a cat or a fish.

Also, trying to use a hammer to cut a wire or a saw to nail a nail is just brute force which is not effective.

My late instructor of kyokushin told me,
In the 1970, when Ali fight the Japanese wrestle. The Japanese wrestle went to Mas oyama, consult how to fight Ali,

Oyama told him to never stands on his feet and keep sweeping Ali leg, eat him alive when he is on ground. But if you stood up to face Ali , you will be eating alive.

That is the reality based on best fighters data points. What make one think we are any special?

The disaster come when one doesn't know what one good at. And thinking one is so special and secret can made one superman. I try to bring 1848 here with verify data point to tell a story of there is not much different between 1848 and today in reality. One needs to be pragmatic knowing exactly what is going on. I talk about Qi but never I get woo woo ,instead can convert Qi into bio effect.

From 1845 to 1865 , about 20 millions life lost in that uprising in china which involve Wck ancestors . Who is so special? None. No superman no kungfu movie, no legend. In fact , there are hundred of generals participate in that uprising from both side , and none is superman, but all are capable men from both side, the Qing and the anti Qing, read the history.

One can only be who one is.

KPM

04-18-2014, 12:43 PM

Great !

I don't want to be the smart A$$ that everyone wants to hang. But there are certain message if we don't share we screw the Wck ancestors and future wcners big time.

You know, KLPSWCK has Got Bong, Got Gan, and Tun Sao that aren't really found in Yip Man WCK. These elements are perfect for working the closer range that you mention. In fact, when you were demo'ing on your dummy the first thing you did was a KLPSWCK Got Bong to illustrate the close range distance!

Hendrik

04-18-2014, 12:53 PM

You know, KLPSWCK has Got Bong, Got Gan, and Tun Sao that aren't really found in Yip Man WCK. These elements are perfect for working the closer range that you mention. In fact, when you were demo'ing on your dummy the first thing you did was a KLPSWCK Got Bong to illustrate the close range distance!

Agree.

Wck is Wck, if we go to 1848. We are all one Wck family.

Hendrik

04-18-2014, 01:27 PM

Hendrik I'll agree with you on the Wing Chun mechanics here but not completely on Long Fist. I realize that you are doing this to illustrate a point but I think it needs clarification.

Many Long Fist systems and Western Boxing contain "inch power" for when in very close. It's a common misconception that simply because your arms are outstretched in Long Fist that you are far away, when in reality we could be cheek to cheek.------

IMHO,

Inch power in short strike art and long fist systems are two different things.
For example, in YKSLT inch power Qi medirians handling is involve. That type of inch power is what I am talking about.

I see what your trying to allude to, but you have to be careful here your headed down that slippery slope again.

You call it Ermei technology, that's fine I don't link the Gung Fat to another system, I personally think it was part of the conception process. Gung Fat (Method of Skill) is the "mother theory" of movement that binds movements together to create a flow based upon the "mother theory".

Example, make an inward circling motion with your arm, now keeping the motion and punch, then block, then pull etc. The circle is Gung Fat, it connects the punch, the block and the pull in a way they otherwise wouldn't be. For those interested, yes this method of Gung Fat can be present in San Sik.-------

What I present is a description.
It is emei technology because in the 1848 YKSLT writing it is clearly and solidly define , it is an emei technology. It is not a theory, not what I think , but a facts with trackable evidence.

It also beyond what you describe as gung fat above. The emei technology is a well define technology based on biomechanics, mind, breathing , Qi flow, force flow, and momentum.

Using your inward circle as an example above.

The YKSLT kuit wrote:

Y7神寄指爪䄂底旁。
Pay attention to handling of the finger, craw , and the side under the sleeve .

Y8旋迥自然順脈氣
Spiral twisting (turning ) naturally , follow the breathing and the direction of the Qi flow in the medirians.

Note:
Y7 and Y8 of the pre 1848 writing above are now postitivelt identify as from the Emei 12 zhuang ancient document by evidence. And due to we can track to the Emei 12 zhuang or the mother art writing exactly , that give us a clear details on the contents and handling and relationship of SNT to its mother art.

It is this type of depth we now have accessed to. So, we do know very specifically on the subject .

Overall good post Hendrik. Please just slow down and take the time to explain in better detail, this will cut down on the flak. ------

Good suggestion. Thanks

it is good to bring up issue so I response, for me, after decades of sleeping with these stuffs. Everything is obvious for me. Which I Expect not obvious to others, thus, I expect question for me to do clarification.

BPWT..

04-18-2014, 02:33 PM

So, if one doesn't go through the six steps in a step by step progressive way after every miles stone develop, one will not develop the gong. If one mis a step , one will never get the target result . If one have totally no idea on these steps and process, one cannot develop the Kung.

In today's language, This is a software , the hard ware or SNT cheography is there but needs software to training the hard ware.

San sik, is not doing the above. But a scenerio of application. Everything has their place but they are different.

If one doesn't practice or implement the above gong fat or process or formulae 2014 intentionally within SNT more then one hundred hours , one really doesn't know what it is. Usually needs a thousand hour to have a good handling.
So, no, just practice SNT doesn't get one there.

Gong fat is what only teach to the inner circle in the ancient, San sik can teach to every students. Without the gung fat development San sik really doesn't function well.

For example, in the YouTube above, I enter my body to stick at the woodern dummy range which is the sweet spot of Wck 1848 IMHO , from fist range , to elbow , to shoulder range. And play there .

In today's language, That is just a biu Jee set equivalent type of enter the body San sik. But without the gong fat of formulae 2014 develop in SNT. I can not do that but will default into long fist art type of biomechanics. Which really doesn't work well in that range.

Thus, there are the body gong and application or sau faat. The gong faat and sau faat. One needs both to get a compete art. Usually, in ancient only sau faat is teaches, but San gong hidden. Thus, that is a major cause of the losing of the art because when the short strike art San gong is replace by the long fist San gong. That is the beginning of in effective and chaos evolution. IMHO.

So, when say SPM Sam Bo ging or taiji or western boxing is import into SNT , one have to ask, is it still short strike art?

I am not saying who is original or pure or olderst, but based on technology things has to add up. And we do see issue in passing the art in the history record via the tendency. These is just what happen in the history as I have seen. IMHO.

I have to admit, this does make sense. :) Good post Hendrik.

Ps. Your long vacation from the forum was actually just a weekend break :D

Hendrik

04-18-2014, 02:53 PM

I have to admit, this does make sense. :) Good post Hendrik.

Ps. Your long vacation from the forum was actually just a weekend break :D

Thanks!

I am going hide out soon!

Hendrik

04-18-2014, 03:19 PM

For those who likes to test drive snt gung fat,

Just follow this simplify instruction for daily practice ,

No need to learn any new stuffs.

do it for three weeks and see the result for yourself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt9g-fRt66M

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2jNzwPlikg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2vwzemA11k&feature=youtube_gdata

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7qznHANJec&feature=youtube_gdata

KPM

04-18-2014, 06:08 PM

Hi KPM,

What is "Got" = ______?
And is your "Tun" Sao the same thing as a "Tan" Sao in YPWCK?

Thx.

"Got" = Cut or Cutting. So a Cutting Bong or a Cutting Gan. Tun = swallow. A Tun Sao is like a Tan Sao but it moves back and draws in..."swallowing" the force while deflecting rather then going forward like a Tan Sao that sends the force out while deflecting. A Got Bong essentially is a Bong that folds over so it almost looks like an elbow strike, and in certain applications can be. So again, where a regular Bong tends to send out while deflecting, a Got Bong tends to draw in while deflecting. A Got Gan uses a "sickle hand" and a bent elbow as opposed to the straight arm of a regular Gan. Like the other two, it tends to draw in and across while deflecting where the regular Gan sends out while deflecting. All of this is appropriate for reaching that closer distance that Hendrik is talking about and turning the opponent to get the "Pin Sun" or side body positioning. This is all interesting because what Hendrik is saying is that WCK was meant to be an even closer-range fighting method than most Wing Chun people realize! And the short "shock force" or ging is more appropriate at this distance than at arm's length.

Hendrik

04-18-2014, 06:34 PM

"Got" = Cut or Cutting. So a Cutting Bong or a Cutting Gan. Tun = swallow. A Tun Sao is like a Tan Sao but it moves back and draws in..."swallowing" the force while deflecting rather then going forward like a Tan Sao that sends the force out while deflecting. A Got Bong essentially is a Bong that folds over so it almost looks like an elbow strike, and in certain applications can be. So again, where a regular Bong tends to send out while deflecting, a Got Bong tends to draw in while deflecting. A Got Gan uses a "sickle hand" and a bent elbow as opposed to the straight arm of a regular Gan. Like the other two, it tends to draw in and across while deflecting where the regular Gan sends out while deflecting. All of this is appropriate for reaching that closer distance that Hendrik is talking about and turning the opponent to get the "Pin Sun" or side body positioning.

This is all interesting because what Hendrik is saying is that WCK was meant to be an even closer-range fighting method than most Wing Chun people realize! And the short "shock force" or ging is more appropriate at this distance than at arm's length.

1848 Wck are infact interesting .

The idea of short strike art seems to be:

1. stick to the body , occupied center line and that 40cm of Space the long fist needs to operate.
2. Continuous to move at stick body range and capture center line, not stay in one location, strike the opponent weak point and keep moving , not engage into play wrestling at close range .

A sample example of these above are as describe in the following YKSLT kuit.

YKSLT Part 2

Ya15雙掌互插分突圍。
Double palm trusting each other to breakout sudden attack

Ya18抽砍更需不誤遲
Draw and chop must be done without delay

Ya19標指狠毒急可用。
Biu Jee is poison use it at emergency

Ya20囘身中宮參佛手
Return ( re capture ) to the center door with Buddha counsel hand technic.

YKSLT Part 3

Yb1敵強孤弱封喉手。
Enemy is strong while I am weak, using seal throat hand

Yb2拱手折力要均勻
Double palm breaking the incoming force in an even way

Yb3左外右肘徧身發。
Left and right elbow issue with slant body

Note: part 2 and part 3 of YKSLT actually are arranged differently then ck and bj.
As one can see in the kuit

Part 2.
Ya19, that is the famous Wck "biu Jee poison " saying.
Ya20, is the return to center.
Part 3.
Yb1 , that is the Wck "seal throat hand " saying.

IMHO, The issue is that, it require the type of engine which could support the biu Jee set type. Otherwise, nothing works. It is a totally different paradigm compare with what we think today. Staying in the distance as today to go against a western boxer or a SPM one might not have chance by law of physics . IMHO .

Again, I brought these up here only for the purpose of showing a 1848 Wck data point. Nothing more. Solely for a technical sharing. To show these things exist. My view is , I can't take responsible if these things were lost. Wcners deserve to know they exist.

I don't know it all, i am not a grandmaster , not an expert but trying my best to share information. So, do your own research and make your own judgement, never trust what I say, because I can be wrong . Disagreement is always welcome and expected as in any university class room discussion.

Mutant

04-18-2014, 10:30 PM

short-power isn't necessarily tied to short range... although it often is. but the short-power is an energy generation method that can be used at a variety of ranges, from close body range, to clinch range to short punching range out to extended striking range. arm can be near fully extended at target and then POP! short-power pulse using same w.c. 'short-power' mechanics, just at long range. in fact our klps version of saam bai fut ends with relaxed extended fook exploding for last 'inch' into short power pulse generation leading into snake wrist & fingers slide back & forth, up & down before transition into next section. besides basic arm, wrist, finger tendon conditioning, teach how to utilize the short-power generation at range without retracting or relying on 'wind up' distance. the different sections develop energy and teach us how to use various power generations at different ranges, conditions and angles in relation to centerline. in fact, entire klps '12 fists of lj' set is considered noi gung.

Mutant

04-18-2014, 10:38 PM

A sample example of these above are as describe in the following YKSLT kuit.

YKSLT Part 2

Ya15雙掌互插分突圍。
Double palm trusting each other to breakout sudden attack

Ya18抽砍更需不誤遲
Draw and chop must be done without delay

Ya19標指狠毒急可用。
Biu Jee is poison use it at emergency

Ya20囘身中宮參佛手
Return ( re capture ) to the center door with Buddha counsel hand technic.

YKSLT Part 3

Yb1敵強孤弱封喉手。
Enemy is strong while I am weak, using seal throat hand

Yb2拱手折力要均勻
Double palm breaking the incoming force in an even way

Yb3左外右肘徧身發。
Left and right elbow issue with slant body

Note: part 2 and part 3 of YKSLT actually are arranged differently then ck and bj.
As one can see in the kuit

Part 2.
Ya19, that is the famous Wck "biu Jee poison " saying.
Ya20, is the return to center.
Part 3.
Yb1 , that is the Wck "seal throat hand " saying.

this is interesting data, hendrick.

as kpm termed it, "shock force" may be a better term to accurately describe than "short-power" which can mislead people to inextricably tie it to range. "short-power" should just describe the distance it takes to generate the power pulse but at a variety of ranges.

KPM

04-19-2014, 05:28 AM

KPM

04-19-2014, 05:50 AM

I think this is a "taste" of the close body approach that Hendrik has been talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfauOVT6lZ0

Hendrik

04-19-2014, 06:52 AM

Snake engine seven bows force flow technology.

Can be used with all seven bows integrated or single bow such as wrist . Can use the global force from ground or local bow.

Hendrik

04-19-2014, 06:55 AM

Seven bows story

Hendrik

04-19-2014, 06:56 AM

Seven bows story

Hendrik

04-19-2014, 06:57 AM

Seven bows story continous

Hendrik

04-19-2014, 06:58 AM

Lower bows

Hendrik

04-19-2014, 06:58 AM

Upper bows

Hendrik

04-19-2014, 07:01 AM

The end of the story.

Hendrik

04-19-2014, 07:07 AM

I think this is a "taste" of the close body approach that Hendrik has been talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfauOVT6lZ0

Thanks !

The further we travel back in time the more it get close to 1848. What it is always leave a trace.

KPM

04-19-2014, 08:02 AM

Hendrik

04-19-2014, 08:49 AM

Very cool illustrations Hendrik! Can I bring in a little more anatomy to see if I understand well enough?

7 - Foot Bow = Arch of the foot with the elasticity of the plantar fascia and spring ligament to help transmit and store force

6 - Ankle Bow = Elasticity of the Achilles tendon to transmit and store force

5 - Knee Bow = Combination of tendon insertions of the hamstrings and gastroc muscles giving 4 tendons that all cross the joint. Lots of elasticity and power here!

4 - Hip Bow = Would this be more than just the acetabular joint? Wouldn't this actually be the Kua? As I understand it the Kua is the pelvis as a whole which would include the acetabular joints, the sacroiliac joints, the pubic symphysis and the lumbosacral junction of the lower back. Lots of guiding, steering and transmission of force potential here!

3 - Shoulder Bow = Like the Hip Bow, I think this would be more than just the shoulder or glenohumeral joint. Wouldn't this actually be the entire shoulder girdle? This would include the glenohumeral joint, the acromioclavicular joint, the sternoclavicular joint, and the scapulothoracic articulation (not really a joint, but where the scapula slides over the chest wall). Less ligament/tendon elasticity here, but good muscular control.

2 - Elbow Bow = pretty straight-forward as elbow joint

1 - Wrist Bow = pretty straight-forward as wrist joint

Where does the spine fit into this model? I've always considered the spine as a "bow" that is important in linking the lower body and upper body and transmitting the force between them. It can use a "wave" action or a "torque" action to send out force and momentum in different ways. IMHO it shouldn't be passive any more than the hips are passive.

Great!

Thanks!

1.
The seven bows are where one can handle the power pretty safe (still don't want to abuse it) without have to concern of damage basically .

2.
Spine is fragile, no force should apply to it. So it should feel like transparent. In fact to develop spine is to train such that it feel transparent and leavitate like.

If you feel something or trying to use force with spine, that is the indication of the stagnation of force in that part of the body.

Also, if the opponent target lock your spine position and inject a force pulse to it while one is using that part of joints , it can cause serious issue. Thus, spine must be keep "transparent or lite weight."

it is no good to introduce in the beginning stage. Mis handle of spine is a serious issue.

3, at the intermedia level of seven bows handling, the joints is like transparent. All of them are light weight and be able to the evoke at will for the purpose of force flow handling. It is exactly like a transformers robots joints.

So, wcners, no spine play, never do that. Make it transparent and let the seven bows distribute the force. That way you know you are consider safe to a certain degree.

4. Speaking on the evolution of Wck, the following utube is a good realistic sample data point on what happen today, analyze it with the long fist and short strike art type. Obverse the biomechanics....and momentum handling ..etc

This utube is shown only as a sample for technical discussion. Nothing else, and I think both wcners in the video did a great job . I appreciate their contribution. I am just a researcher looking at Wck evolution.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnehZy1sJSc&feature=youtube_gdata

Hendrik

04-19-2014, 09:46 AM

As for to see what it is on the seven bows handling.

One just needs to use the formulae 2014 to activate the SNT.
No need to import taiji, SPM, ....or reinvent the wheel. Just let what it is surface as it is.

Formulae 2014 is A six steps sequencing process cover six core elements. It is an internal art development process embedded with 1848 YKSLT . Emei 12 zhuang technology is used within with its specific way of development .

Step:
1. Collect the intention union with awareness on equal shoulder stance. (Loose expand )
2. Meeting in lower abdomen breathing is smooth ( deep breathing)
3. Snake slide worm move joins progressively link ( joins handling)
4. Couple with ground needs the feet bow ( ground coupling)
5. Seven bows align into a path way for Jin or force flow ( Force flow path construction )
6. Action and reaction force handling develop Jin or force flow ( force flow handling)

Formulae 2014 embedded within any older SNT

section 1, yjkym section implement step 1 and 2.
Develop loose expand , deep breathing, and grow Qi

Section 2, snake reel section implement step 3.
Develop joins handling and adaptive

Section 3, Sam pai fut section imolement step 4, 5, 6
Develop ground coupling, force flow path, and force flow handling.

Make sure every step and millstone understood and reach before proceed

Five parts YouTube

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-3E_T4Zen9k&feature=youtube_gdata_player&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D-3E_T4Zen9k%26feature%3Dyoutube_gdata_player