Cult mentality in Wing Chun

[zuti car]

In some Wing Chun groups and organizations certain elements of the cult tactics and behavior can be easily seen . I will describe the most common and the most obvious ones .
-Teacher is viewed as having a unique ability , something special that separates him from all other Wing Chun teachers . This is very close to classical leader worshiping among religious cults .
-Second characteristic is connected o a first one - strong believe in a system/style superiority which is usually based on an "origin" story . Origin story , some times directly and some times indirectly suggests style superiority and gives a followers a sense that they have in their possession something special, original or in other way better from anything else of the same kind .
-Us vs them mentality . These have constant need to defend their believes along with a need to present and convince others to accept their believes the way they do. When outsiders do not comply they will attack them on personal level or ignore them completely .
-Lack of critical thinking . First , no one in this groups will question their believes . Second , all the evidence against their believes will be ignored .
-Specific terminology , not understandable for outsiders . Even a common and usual things will have unusual names and different , complicated definitions .
These are some of the most obvious and most common cult features that can be found among Wing Chun groups . My question is , how a well educated person , who will without second thought, escort for example Jehovah witnesses out of his property , falls easily under the influence of such wing chun groups .

[Grumblegeezer]

In some Wing Chun groups and organizations certain elements of the cult tactics and behavior can be easily seen . I will describe the most common and the most obvious ones .
-Teacher is viewed as having a unique ability , something special that separates him from all other Wing Chun teachers . This is very close to classical leader worshiping among religious cults .
-Second characteristic is connected o a first one - strong believe in a system/style superiority which is usually based on an "origin" story . Origin story , some times directly and some times indirectly suggests style superiority and gives a followers a sense that they have in their possession something special, original or in other way better from anything else of the same kind .
-Us vs them mentality . These have constant need to defend their believes along with a need to present and convince others to accept their believes the way they do. When outsiders do not comply they will attack them on personal level or ignore them completely .
-Lack of critical thinking . First , no one in this groups will question their believes . Second , all the evidence against their believes will be ignored .
-Specific terminology , not understandable for outsiders . Even a common and usual things will have unusual names and different , complicated definitions .
These are some of the most obvious and most common cult features that can be found among Wing Chun groups . My question is , how a well educated person , who will without second thought, escort for example Jehovah witnesses out of his property , falls easily under the influence of such wing chun groups .

Zuti, you left one important item off your list of cult traits. That would be how the cult members will turn on their own and ostracize or "excommunicate" any member who comes to question or doubt the belief system. It happened to me. I did bai-si to and was part of the "inner circle" of a well known sifu for many years, going back to 1980. But the fact that I would often ask annoying questions, would not give over my entire life (and life savings) and would not completely give up cross-training eventually marginalized me with regards to the group. For many years I just drifted away and out of the picture.

Then when back in 2007 I made the decision to train again with a talented former top member of the group who had broken away, I was made persona non-grata. One si-hing who I had considered a personal friend since 1979 simply cut all communication and hasn't spoken to me since. Rather pathetic, really.

As far as why apparently intelligent people follow such cults, well much has been written about that. It's a sad fact that bright and otherwise logical people can fall into this trap. Maybe it's partly a need to feel special, to be appreciated, to have a sense of belonging and value? I'm sure a shrink could address that better than I.

But whatever the reason, it's not the sort of thing you'll see successful competitors falling into. Real competition tends to strip away a lot of illusions ...and delusions. That's why, in spite of the oft cited limitations of sporting or competitive martial arts, I've always felt that WC would better off with more competition and sparring. That's why my hat's off to guys like Alan Orr ...whatever their fighters might "look like" to an old traditionalist like me.

[PalmStriker]

:) It has become a very cultist style since so many white peoples joined. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQsXd12c408

[Grumblegeezer]

:) It has become a very cultist style since so many white peoples joined. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQsXd12c408

Ha! Blame the poor clueless gwai-lo. So true. Now on the other hand, I were Asian, instead of being a follower, I could run the darned cult! LOL. (Now please don't take me seriously)

[PalmStriker]

Yes, I mean, "No Master" ! :)

[kentchang]

Originally Posted by zuti car
because TWC people from Serbia stalking me for a long time and caused me a lot of trouble in the past when i talked openly about people i work with .

Some angry students and some unhappy teachers and some stories!!!


Originally Posted by VT Andy
This information helps to understand there is differences when student does baisee as it is no longer about fighting and the physical things. Wu De must be a very big role for those willing to profess loyalty and ethics align with morality of martial way. This loyalty and betrayal issues with Sifu Yung reminds me of this story I read on this one blog, antoher instance where a student takes advantage of the Sifu and try to stole the lineage. Here is the linx.
http://protectingrealshaolin.wordpre...sim-successor/

[Mutant]

But whatever the reason, it's not the sort of thing you'll see successful competitors falling into. Real competition tends to strip away a lot of illusions ...and delusions. That's why, in spite of the oft cited limitations of sporting or competitive martial arts, I've always felt that WC would better off with more competition and sparring. That's why my hat's off to guys like Alan Orr ...whatever their fighters might "look like" to an old traditionalist like me.
Mostly true but sport fighting is not immune to this either... Just look at the Team Lloyd Irvin debacle. One of the biggest cults in modern day martial arts, although some of the traditional martial arts sure give him a run for his money.

[anerlich]

Mostly true but sport fighting is not immune to this either... Just look at the Team Lloyd Irvin debacle. One of the biggest cults in modern day martial arts, although some of the traditional martial arts sure give him a run for his money.

True - never sign up with anyone who calls themselves a master, as in "Master Lloyd".

"Bai si" ing and all that is about as applicable to the modern world as slavery or burning witches IMO. Be a student, yes, a disciple, f**k no. If you think this guy is "the only one that can teach you the true secrets", check your wallet pronto because you are about to be robbed if it isn't already too late.

Any discipline that pushes up against religion and more esoteric practices - Kung Fu, Yoga, meditation - especially those with exotic connotations will find its share of woo-peddlars, manipulators and charlatans ready to take advantage of those who feel something is missing from their lives.

Lloyd's spiel was more about multilevel marketing than enlightenment, though the methods were the same. The cultish practice that he invoked which is inaccessible to many in WC was setting up living quarters for his top students, making it extremely competitive to get in and then having all the guys live together, so that the only people they saw were the Master and the fellow disciples.

WC is no worse in this regard than many and in my opinion better than most. IMO WC is more about rampant egos, entitlement issues and the like. Most of the guilty aren't smart or sophisticated enough to pass themselves off as messiahs, though have no problem making it as tyrants.

The closest I ever came to a cult leader was an Anglo Taiji/Xingyi/BaGua guy I trained with in the 1980s. The less impressive Asian Sifus I've met have been too interested in money, women, and insulting other Sifus to worry about brainwashing disciples.

[Grumblegeezer]

The less impressive Asian Sifus I've met have been too interested in money, women, and insulting other Sifus to worry about brainwashing disciples.

Sounds like we've run into some of the same, or at least very similar people!