Taiwanese Wing Chun

[zuti car]

A year ago , friend of mine knowing that I practice Wing Chun , asked me have I ever heard about "Taiwanese" Wing Chun . I said yes , Lo Man Kam's system is often called "Taiwanese" . The friend of mine said that he does not know who Lo Man Kam is ,but his neighbor is practicing "Taiwanese" Wing Chun and he is willing to introduce me with him if I want . I had no interest at the time because I thought it is just one of the many schools opened after the "Yip Man" movies and i soon forget about the whole thing . Couple of weeks later friend told me that he spoke with his neighbor and he would like to meet me. I said ok and next Saturday I went to visit “Taiwanese” wing chun club . Like I said, I was expecting Yip Man’s style but I was wrong . Taiwanese style is really unique and very different from anything I have ever seen before . There are 12 empty hand forms in the style but non of them even remotely look like classical wing chun forms . There is no butterfly knives in the system , instead of that they are using two short steel bars . Besides that there is a wide variety of classical Chinese weapons . There is no Chi Sao of any kind . Body structure superficially looks like White Crane structure , but it is different . There are “short” bridge and “long” bridge techniques . Fighting strategies and footwork are almost identical to classical Wing Chun . About history , they trace their origin to Ng Mui , but they claim that style arrived on Taiwan with Koshinga’s war against Portuguese 1660- 1662 . Since that time , style was preserved among anti Ching secret societies . Style is definitely southern , but I would never called it Wing Chun if I didn’t know its name .They are closed group , as I understood , you can join the club only if with an invitation. They also preserve some documents that can support their claims about history .Also a lot of training is concentrated on fights , every Saturday night is "fight night" , of course they are using protective gear , but thy are fighting seriously .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WWexwh02Ro

[hunt1]

It is Yong Chong White crane. White crane from Wing Chun county . Not wing chun from the red boats. That is why it doesnt look like wing chun. It's not its white crane.

[zuti car]

It is Yong Chong White crane. White crane from Wing Chun county . Not wing chun from the red boats. That is why it doesnt look like wing chun. It's not its white crane.

They were clear they are not white crane style or anything else but Wing Chun . They call wing chun from the red boats "female" style , while theirs is "male" style. Anyway , I do not have much experience with other southern styles besides Taiwanese white crane , and the video is to short to see what they are actually doing. It would be good if someone can shed more light on this matter .

[Hendrik]

1. The San gung is southern long fist. Not even fujian white crane of Taiwan . No way can be ancient short strike art wing chun famous with close body and inch power.

2. They use high bong sau which is a modern signature. Ancient Red boat art in 1848 era or pre 1848 , be it weng chun or wing chun doesn't use high bong sau

3. Wing chun is the art of the hung mun triad red boat opera sect. Not the accord to their claim of Ming army brought to Taiwan late 1600.

4. Wck core on SLT and SLT is a emei 12 zhuang based engine art to develop short strike San gung with inch power a Never southern fist .



Technology DNA not matched.
As the signatures shown , the utube show a modern coin art .

[dfl]

I don't know where this came from (and I am not passing judgement on whether it is good or bad, effective or not, etc.), but the video says it went to Taiwan when Zheng Chenggong took over the island at the beginning of the Qing dynasty (1644-1911). So presumably it puts "Ng Mui" before that time frame, since she had to invent the thing. Unfortunately, the character Ng Nui was invented in the novel Man Nin Ching set during the reign of emperor Qian Long (1735-1796), so unless she perfected time travel, it would be an impossible feat.
Would be historians are reminded once again while everyone enjoys a tall tale, the mastery of simple arithmetic is a prerequisite.

[Hendrik]

I don't know where this came from (and I am not passing judgement on whether it is good or bad, effective or not, etc.), but the video says it went to Taiwan when Zheng Chenggong took over the island at the beginning of the Qing dynasty (1644-1911). So presumably it puts "Ng Mui" before that time frame, since she had to invent the thing. Unfortunately, the character Ng Nui was invented in the novel Man Nin Ching set during the reign of emperor Qian Long (1711-1799), so unless she perfected time travel, it would be an impossible feat.
Would be historians are reminded once again while everyone enjoys a tall tale, the mastery of simple arithmetic is a prerequisite.

Dan,

That is why now a day, I focus in DNA mostly. Hung mun is great only if there is a solid link.

The rest is just too many his - storians and too many experts who is either very creative or off mark.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1266044] 2. They use high bong sau which is a modern signature. Ancient Red boat art in 1848 era or pre 1848 , be it weng chun or wing chun doesn't use high bong sau

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I agree on "Taiwanese" wing chun not really being from the wing chun art.

But on the bong sao- you depending on your own YK lineage story and calling it history.Yip man lineages do not emphasize "stories"
but IM's wing chun is traceable via Leung Jan's legacy and the balancing of bong with other things and in IM's chi sao
bong is very much there. YK and your SNT des not seem to emphasize bong sao- your position sounds like a lineage related rationalization.

[Grumblegeezer]

Unfortunately, the character Ng Nui was invented in the novel Man Nin Ching set during the reign of emperor Qian Long (1711-1799), so unless she perfected time travel, it would be an impossible feat.
Would be historians are reminded once again while everyone enjoys a tall tale, the mastery of simple arithmetic is a prerequisite.

I've seen several articles presented by historical researchers that try to move the origin of the Ng Mui story up to dates as late as the 1930s, or point out the the first written appearance of the character of Ng Mui in literature dates to the late 19th Century. This in no way proves that the stories of Ng Mui and Wing chun weren't already well established in the esoteric origin lore passed down privately in martial arts circles in the Guandong region.

Regardless of the late date of Ng Mui's first appearance in the written record in a fictional book, IMO it seems far more likely that these characters were a mid-19th Century re-imagining of earlier figures found in arts like Yonchun White Crane that may have been one of the ancesters of Wing Chun. Personally I am not all that concerned one way or the other, although I sometimes wonder what is behind the argument for a comaparatively late date for the emergence of these figures.

[KPM]

A year ago , friend of mine knowing that I practice Wing Chun , asked me have I ever heard about "Taiwanese" Wing Chun .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WWexwh02Ro

Very interesting! Thanks for posting that Zuti! Portions of it certainly look more like Wing Chun than White Crane to me. The dummy looks like Wing Chun and some of the solo hand sets shown are Wing Chun. Overall it strikes me like Cho Ga or one of the other lineages that have taken a Wing Chun base and added a bunch of other stuff to it. I have to agree with Hendrik that what Wing Chun portion that is shown looks a bit "modern" to me and doesn't have the "old school" feel like you have in some of the mainland WCK styles. But then, the video doesn't give much to go on. And no Chi Sao? That is strange!

[zuti car]

Very interesting! Thanks for posting that Zuti! Portions of it certainly look more like Wing Chun than White Crane to me. The dummy looks like Wing Chun and some of the solo hand sets shown are Wing Chun. Overall it strikes me like Cho Ga or one of the other lineages that have taken a Wing Chun base and added a bunch of other stuff to it. I have to agree with Hendrik that what Wing Chun portion that is shown looks a bit "modern" to me and doesn't have the "old school" feel like you have in some of the mainland WCK styles. But then, the video doesn't give much to go on. And no Chi Sao? That is strange!

They have something instead of chi sao but I really do not know how to explain it . It starts as an interception of the various punches and than turns into attempt to control opponents structure and balance , but it starts from the distance and after the attempt of control ,successful or not , the contact is broken and they start again , no "sticking hands" more than a moment , just enough to establish control or fail in attempt to do that . Their dummy form has no sections and it is not "symmetrical" , there is no repeating of the same movements on the left and right side . Looking just at the forms , it doesn't look like Wing Chun , but in principles and application it is wing chun for sure , at last for the most part of it . About their history , I do no not believe in their story , not for a moment , especially not in Ng Mui part . On the other hand , although it is highly improbable it is possible that style or some older version of it came in 1660s during Koxinga's campaign . As I have heard there are several "Taiwanese" wing chun styles , but for now it is not possible to contact them . I hope , in the future someone will find the way to contact these people and give us some insight in their practice and stories .