A well made wck history video from china

[Hendrik]

This is a great video !


http://youtu.be/JsDR5oH-4Y4

[BPWT..]

This is a great video! http://youtu.be/JsDR5oH-4Y4

I saw in the credits Rene Richie's name mentioned. Is that for work he's contributed in the past, or did he help out recently? I still find myself picking up his Complete Wing Chun book.

[zuti car]

There is nothing about Wing Chun in this video ( aside wrong and incomplete interpretation ). I will make some wing chun "history" when I find some time to visit couple of old temples and museums here

[Hendrik]

I saw in the credits Rene Richie's name mentioned. Is that for work he's contributed in the past, or did he help out recently? I still find myself picking up his Complete Wing Chun book.

It is part based on Rene, Robert, and mine article decades ago.

Around 2000, now many wcners have went to china to search out and bring the infor to us.


The following video is the connection to yik kam of red boat and Wck in 1848,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VV72hr3Lmcs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Hendrik]

Kleber style is very similar to Rene. He is a great researcher.


The following is his post in Facebook this morning



"The reason why I created this series of videos is because many people are guessing the history based on their own ideas. I thought was nice to base our history on the fact and documents we know as today Hendrik, cause I love the art and I also know that is easy to be led on the wrong direction, especially when it comes to Chinese kung fu, cause all the styles base their history on legends or fairytales, or try to link their origins to famous or fictional characters.

We know for a fact nowadays that Wing Chun come from Fujian White Crane and Emei 12 zhuang, and video documentation to prove this is coming very soon "

[Hendrik]

Btw,

The Taiping heavenly kingdom army was train by Choy Lee Fut.

Yik kam and The Cho family involved with the taiping uprising , Choy Lee Fut , and the anti Qing heaven and earth association.


The kuit of the half point of the six point half pole of the yik kam Wck of cho family says:

Half point center line pole settle the TaiPing.



Which is echo to the last kuit of the SLT or the salutation which says

Sword finger bong elbow presents to the Hero




We do know what exist will leave a trace.

Thus, thanks for the Cho family ancestors to protect and keep these data, it is a very important data points of 1848 for Wck history and DNA.

[deejaye72]

documentation... interesting. does someone have a video tape of someone performing wing chun in 1850? 1848, 1890?

[deejaye72]

i need to turn on my snake engine, and wiggle my snake lol

[deejaye72]

i watched the history channel the other day, and now i know what technique george washington used to chop down the cherry tree! oh wait...that story was made up!

[Paddington]

Thanks for the links Hendrik.

[Paddington]

[said some stuff]

Look, there is just no need for posts such as the ones you provide. They do your character a disservice. If you don't agree with Hendrik just say so and leave it at, no need for the jibes.

[deejaye72]

Look, there is just no need for posts such as the ones you provide. They do your character a disservice. If you don't agree with Hendrik just say so and leave it at, no need for the jibes.

but okay for him to do it to me. thats different. are you a student? do you have video footage of this wing chun from the 1800's?

[Hendrik]

Thanks for the links Hendrik.

You are welcome!

More will come, many indepent researchers have done research from different location .

Kleber is from WSL , Wan Kam Leung lineage, working with many party of wcners including Wing Chun illustrate.

It is great that he brough us to different locations in china to show us.

[KPM]

This is a great video !


http://youtu.be/JsDR5oH-4Y4

Cool video about the Taiping rebellion! Thanks for sharing! Doesn't really say anything about Wing Chun though.

[Hendrik]

Cool video about the Taiping rebellion! Thanks for sharing! Doesn't really say anything about Wing Chun though.


IMHO,

One can see what happen on that era, weapon such as the long pole they use and the scope of the war, also how red boat involve with all of these.

As above, we know from yik kam data point, red boat Wck is involve with taiping.

So, there is no shao Lin in that era but anti qing.



As in the Map, From red boat opera Lee Man Mau is the leader at the national level.
Lee man mau is from Hok San or ku lo area.
In one of the hung mun book found, Leung LAN Kwai name was address, as nick name NG Mui. Later fleet after the uprising lost. We know Leung LAN Kwai is hung mun member , and these people are from kulo area.

With the following evidence
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67571-A-well-made-wck-history-video-from-china&p=1266671#post1266671

We can see what is likely to happen.

This is also a way of verify the yik kam kuit documents . To see does things match up


There is no tan sau NG or other name mention .

[KPM]

Interesting! So the implication is that Leung Lan Kwai was likely the guy that was responsible for teaching the "Red Boat" version of Wing Chun as we have come to know it through Yip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, Pin Sun, and Yik Kam lineages? "Ng Mui" was a codename for him, implying that he was the one that "formulated" or "developed" Wing Chun? So any stories prior to LLK is the stuff of myths and legends? Would Leung Lan Kwai have been Leung Jan's teacher? Or Wong Wah Bo? How is the current theory shaping up?

[Hendrik]

Interesting! So the implication is that Leung Lan Kwai was likely the guy that was responsible for teaching the "Red Boat" version of Wing Chun as we have come to know it through Yip Man, Yuen Kay Shan, Pin Sun, and Yik Kam lineages?

"Ng Mui" was a codename for him, implying that he was the one that "formulated" or "developed" Wing Chun?

So any stories prior to LLK is the stuff of myths and legends? Would Leung Lan Kwai have been Leung Jan's teacher? Or Wong Wah Bo? How is the current theory shaping up?



If we view Late GM Fung chun video on LLK release from Jim Rosalendo. It matches with the Chinese history in that era.

We can see extreme likely LLK is the chief who taught in the red boat.

So, extreme likely red boat wing chun 1848 is LLK wing chun.


From the history of that era, we know yik kam is under Lee man mau. WWB would be in the same generation as in Gm Fung Chun video on LLK and WWB.

Leung jan really doesn't appear in the radar screen. Also, Leung jan king of kungfu title will not hold in the era of costing 20 millions Chinese life from both Qing and anti Qing side. The era I named it as " the battle of hundred of generals" as you can see the name listed in the map in the above video. No one is king at that era , the war zone spread out with handred of generals battle in different locations. With CLF is the major player. It is a bloody war and people just carry out their specific mission. Leung jan is the later generation. Very likely Not involve in this battle.


We know at that era every anti qing is lying, no one will tell the true identify, thus, they use nick name and shao Lin....etc however, we do know any evolution of Wck from pre 1848 got to be the design of LLK. Because no one is as advance as him at that era. Yik kam is junior compare with LLK in term of Wck skill. One can verify this with Gm Fung chun story from kulo side too.


We know today, giving those era and the education of the people, Wck post 1848 evolve into a tool for specific mission. There is no time to train. No one has time to get into six core elements or seven bows or force flow like us today who live in peaceful era.

As in the above video, the anti Qing red boat opera is gone after 1855. At around 1870 a new red boat opera started, but these people are Qing support are not the same as the pre 1855, who has lost life or fleet away. Ie. If you look at the history of Fung siu Ching, he time line is abovious not relate to the pre 1855.


IMHO,
As for prio to LLK, my view is the Art of Wck is from Yim family and Leung family related to kulo. We don't know the name real name of wing chun, but she existed.

Wing chun as the Shang hai Dien chun or pointing spring are just anti Qing naming.

Some guy from emei , fuse emei and fujian white crane created the art of SLT which looks like pre 1800 fujian white crane And later passed to leung family of kulo, LLK took it to red boat and that is the beginning of Wck. Before that the art is named SLT . Our break though today is we found the released of the emei documents which matches the YKSLT kuit. Otherwise no one will know what is going on. And still we don't know who in emei did it eventhough we know today, just showing the set to an unknown emei sifu, they will jump saying this is related to us. And this type of incident have already happen.

[deejaye72]

they can match up any document they want. nobody can know for sure what that art looked like in application. unless, of course they have video footage to prove it. every single art changes. we have video evidence of boxing from the 1800's..it barely looks like the same art in comparison. everything changes. the only thing constant is change. god's law, jehovah's law, buddha's law..whatever you want to call it. even if he or one of his students beat me up tomorrow, it still wouldn't prove anything, because they could have learned the skills from another martial art. how would you know?? an ancient document? one of those documents he's accused of stealing, mind you!

go out, learn other styles, compare notes, get the sh!t beat out of you! there are no secrets, the secret is your body, you already have it.

[Hendrik]

Wing chun is forsure not her real name.

The anti Qing using the term chun or spring all over the place. As in eternal spring hall...etc

Attached is the Dien chun hall of Shang hai small knive society. Kleber will bring you there in his next video.


Chun means play or opera.

Wing chun kuen is simply means the the martial art of those who sing the play or opera from the red boat.

[Hendrik]

Mark are the Chinese history on lee man mau uprising and involve with a person from the Cho family resident area.



Thus,

With the CLF information, the Hung Mun information, the Chinese history record converges, we know Cho family is extremely likely to involve in the uprising. The Cho and Yik kam belongs to the opera and living in the area.

This means the content in the YKSLT kuit is real. Which means the mother of SLT at 1848
is indeed Emei and fujian white crane.

[Paddington]

I've really enjoyed reading and watching people talk about mid 19th century China. Am I correct in saying that those rising up against the Qing were from poorer backgrounds?

1848 in particular is know as the year of revolutions and any student of European history (Karl Marx in particular) will see a lot of parallels and relationships with what happened in China over that period as well as in the south American continent too. I think the links are stronger given some of the masonic symbology I've seen from that period in China and the role of Christianity, in terms of ideology and motivating beliefs. It is such a shame that European academia has not traditionally included China when teaching undergraduates about the revolutionary period of the mid 19th century. Personally, I see another period of such global upheaval being on the cards in my own lifetime.

[Hendrik]

I've really enjoyed reading and watching people talk about mid 19th century China. Am I correct in saying that those rising up against the Qing were from poorer backgrounds?

1848 in particular is know as the year of revolutions and any student of European history (Karl Marx in particular) will see a lot of parallels and relationships with what happened in China over that period as well as in the south American continent too. I think the links are stronger given some of the masonic symbology I've seen from that period in China and the role of Christianity, in terms of ideology and motivating beliefs. It is such a shame that European academia has not traditionally included China when teaching undergraduates about the revolutionary period of the mid 19th century. Personally, I see another period of such global upheaval being on the cards in my own lifetime.


Sure, Poverty is a big factor.

[KPM]

So if we believe story #1 it can only be correct to assume that Liang Lan Gui (Leung Lan Kwai) was in fact the monk Jinbo Liu Tou in story #2 and the teacher in story #3.

Not necessarily. If Ng Mui was a popular fictional character, then it was also likely a popular codename used amongst different groups.


How does this fit in with Emei Shier Zhuang?

That's a good question! And I don't know anything about Tibetan White Crane. A Kundalini Yoga link sounds very interesting though!

[Hendrik]

This goes back to my original argument that YKWC is the only line to contain Emei Shier Zhuang material, and it was not an original or integral part of WC's development collectively as the founder would not have traded one engine (Snake) for another (Tiger).


The above is a speculation.

Fact is,
WCK lineages such as yks, Ipman, kulo ...YK....ec has the snake of emei embedded in the SNT set. It is a common denominator of these lineages.

Snake of emei and crane of fujian are all. Nothing else . If the common denominator of SNT is not based on orginal Wck design what is?

[Hendrik]

No you are the one speculating. I'll speak for YMWC, YCWWC and NCSWC as these are the methods I've studied. There is absolutely no reference or documentation of Emei Shier Zhuang in these traditions. The only one that even comes close to a "Snake Gong" reference is the Yuan Chai Wan (Ruan Ji Yun) tradition and he never called it snake style that is what others called it, if anything his line went the way of the 5 Animals.

What you suggest is an insult to every line of Crane that exists, saying OK you're Crane style but you run on the engine of a snake. As I have stated before, and I will state yet again, this may be true for YKWC but is not for WC collectively, despite whatever famous individuals agree with you. There is no evidence outside of Cho Family documentation!!!!!!!! Have you ever studied Snake style? I have studied Southern Snake and the link to WC is not overly apparent outside of a few hand position, funny thing is these same hand positions are found in Crane. I've already pointed out that if we are to believe the legends, "Snake Gong" could not have entered WC until third generation. I'm not saying it's not the "Engine" for YKWC, but it is not the "Engine" for my branch(s), our legends clearly state where we came from. As more and more information is uncovered I see nothing that refutes the original claims found within the legends. Everything that you have uncovered only leads back to Cho Family, nothing earlier or to anyone else. As far as Kuen Kuit, the comparison to Emei Shier Zhuang is very interpretative. I could just as easily compare the Kuen Kuit to that of Taijiquan and make claims that the now extinct Southern School of Taijiquan evolved into Wing Chun and that Zhang San Feng was the founder! It's all interpretive, biased and directed to fit into a history that agrees with your ideology only. You may speak for Cho Family WC but you will not speak for me or my line. I do not care what you say Rene Ritchie, Sergio Iderola, Jim Roselando or Robert Chu think. I will form my own opinion based on the evidence presented and research that I've done. My Wing Chun isn't broken, quit suggesting that it is. As I stated before if you think that Ermei Shier Zhuang is the root and power source of WC, fantastic, just remember it only applies to Cho Family. Now I have a question I think you need to ask yourself. If Emei Shier Zhuang is be all end all "Holy Grail" of WC mechanics and theory, why don't you just give up WC altogether and Bei Shi to Fu Wei Zhong?


1. No you don't speak for lineages, you only speak for yourself.

2. From YM lineage , to yks, to yk to kulo, all has share common denominator of snake from emei.
Only yik kam is lucky to preserve the indepth document which link back to emei 12 zhuang mother art.

3. How is it an insult since legend of older Wck always point out it is a snake and crane art?

4. No one talk about holly grail, none, not me. It is just facts presented.

5. A simple thing, not complicated at all. Why made it so complex?
SNT = Emei 12 zhuang + Fujian White crane.
By evidence.


6. The kuit is inteprative for you because you are trying to compare the taste of Chinese noodle and Italian spegetti by looking at photos , but have never taste both.


7. You are free to have your opinion, as you like. I present what is found and not expect anyone to buy in.





Btw

we are to believe the legends, "Snake Gong" could not have entered WC until third generation.


This is fortune telling. Also it doesn't make sense totally. Wck is a short strike art since beginning of time, stick close and short Jin. How is Wck suppose as it is without the snake engine?

[Hendrik]

1. If I don't how can you?

2. And there it is from you own mouth: Only yik kam is lucky to preserve the indepth document which link back to emei 12 zhuang mother art I've been saying this all along, it is only found in YKWC, therefore exclusive to YKWC.



1. I Don't speak for anyone but myself,

I just present facts.


2. The fact in YKWC document is a fact. Disregard of who present it. Others of me, it doesn't matter.



3. The following is late Gm Fung chun practice with emei 12 zhuang signature in it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmXWjKPYIts&feature=youtube_gdata

Jim Rosalendo who is Gm Fung decendent had confirm with Gm Fu of emei 12 zhuang.


4. You are free to have your view.

[deejaye72]

7 bows=tai chi
robert chu study tai chi
robert chu's sifu hawkins cheung practice tai chi
add a little qigong
add a little old documents
add a little chinese noodle for pie in the sky attainment
add a little dont answer questions directly, talk like fortune cookie

[Hendrik]

Believe what you like. I am ok with it.

I don't deal with believe, I present facts. And you don't have to take it.



1. You keep trying to speak for me, irregardless I what I tell you, you say I'm wrong and that Emei Shier Zhuang is present in my WC and that if it isn't it should be. :mad:

2. It's a document that supports Cho Family heritage only, it does not speak for or represent any other line.

3. Those exact same techniques and movements are found in Hongjia. Is Hongjia infused with Emei Shier Zhuang, is it's the "Engine" of Hongjia?

4. I don't care what Jim thinks, if you want to believe something hard enough you will. He is free to think what he wants, but just because him and the rest of the "League of Extraordinary Gentleman" believe it doesn't mean I have to buy into it.

When I learned WC I learned it all, questions were asked and answered with explanation. Nothing was left out. I don't want your "Snake Engine" technology, my WC works just fine without it. Quit trying to convince me I'm wrong when you can't even answer one question I've posed. You assume that my WC is incomplete and that I lack understanding because of what the Cho Family ancestors say in a document? Horsesh!t, this is all some big ruse that you and the rest of the "League of Extraordinary Gentleman" are trying to pull off. What a new book coming out? Trying to chum the waters before it's release? I'm not buying into any of this BULLSH!T! Not one shred of tangible evidence has been put forth that I haven't already refuted. You want me to fall in line? All you or anyone else has to do is answer my GODD@MN questions and convince me! So far what I've laid out on the table has not even been acknowledged let alone responded to. As far as this mysterious Fu Wei Zhong character is concerned, why wouldn't he claim that Emei Shier Zhuang is the root of WC it's good publicity for him. You want to settle this matter have him produce a document stating that someone from the Wing Chun line inherited this art. He is the Grand Master after all, and only a few of the 12 posts have been taught to the public since it's inception. They have a lineage chart don't they, claiming who is qualified to pass on the material and who they taught it to?

[FongSung]

1. If I don't how can you?

2. And there it is from you own mouth: Only yik kam is lucky to preserve the indepth document which link back to emei 12 zhuang mother art I've been saying this all along, it is only found in YKWC, therefore exclusive to YKWC.

As H.Santo has clarified he speaks for himself not on behalf of Ban Chung Wing Chun as past on by the Cho Family.

I have been learning from the Cho Family inheritors in SEA and Ng Wu, China for 8 years and nobody has acknowledged or heard it been said that there is any connection to Ermei. The only reference I have heard is to Siu Lam hence the old name to represent all old opera / red boat kung fu .. Ban Chung Siu Lam.

I do find it strange that after all these years of so called research and going back to China that H. Santo has never been back to Ng Wu to pay his respects and do research into the family names he uses so freely? I assure you both the Cho and Yik families are still around!

The fact is, as he has stated, he has found his own way and interpretation based on his own research into the other arts he has learnt .

[KPM]

1. You keep trying to speak for me, irregardless I what I tell you, you say I'm wrong and that Emei Shier Zhuang is present in my WC and that if it isn't it should be. :mad:

2. It's a document that supports Cho Family heritage only, it does not speak for or represent any other line.

3. Those exact same techniques and movements are found in Hongjia. Is Hongjia infused with Emei Shier Zhuang, is it's the "Engine" of Hongjia?

4. I don't care what Jim thinks, if you want to believe something hard enough you will. He is free to think what he wants, but just because him and the rest of the "League of Extraordinary Gentleman" believe it doesn't mean I have to buy into it.

When I learned WC I learned it all, questions were asked and answered with explanation. Nothing was left out. I don't want your "Snake Engine" technology, my WC works just fine without it. Quit trying to convince me I'm wrong when you can't even answer one question I've posed. You assume that my WC is incomplete and that I lack understanding because of what the Cho Family ancestors say in a document? Horsesh!t, this is all some big ruse that you and the rest of the "League of Extraordinary Gentleman" are trying to pull off. What a new book coming out? Trying to chum the waters before it's release? I'm not buying into any of this BULLSH!T! Not one shred of tangible evidence has been put forth that I haven't already refuted. You want me to fall in line? All you or anyone else has to do is answer my GODD@MN questions and convince me! So far what I've laid out on the table has not even been acknowledged let alone responded to. As far as this mysterious Fu Wei Zhong character is concerned, why wouldn't he claim that Emei Shier Zhuang is the root of WC it's good publicity for him. You want to settle this matter have him produce a document stating that someone from the Wing Chun line inherited this art. He is the Grand Master after all, and only a few of the 12 posts have been taught to the public since it's inception. They have a lineage chart don't they, claiming who is qualified to pass on the material and who they taught it to?

Uh, no offense Dave. But I think this qualifies as a "heightened emotional state". ;)

[deejaye72]

Uh, no offense Dave. But I think this qualifies as a "heightened emotional state". ;)

i'm the calmest guy you ever met! hendrik's avoiding questions is like dealing with a two year old. i feel like homer simpson when he grabs bart by the neck! he answers questions with his snake engine, slithers them away!

[KPM]

I don't know anything about the Emei Snake system. But I have seen some good Southern White Crane. I think there is no doubt that Wing Chun's ancestor art was White Crane. The founding myth of Wing Chun talks about a combination of Snake and Crane. There is often a kernel of truth in old myths and legends. So to me, it seems logical that Wing Chun diverged from its White Crane roots when Snake aspects were included. When that happened, and the source of that Snake influence is not exactly clear. But given that certain motions that are "snake-like" in a lot of Wing Chun lineages seem to be very similar to the Emei Snake that Hendrik has shown pictures of, it seems logical to me. So until a better explanation comes along, I'm willing to go with this. I don't know about a "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen", but I have trained with Jim Roselando and respect his opinion on things. If he has actually spent time with a Emei Sifu and says that he sees lots of commonalities with Wing Chun, then I believe him.

[Hendrik]

I don't know anything about the Emei Snake system. But I have seen some good Southern White Crane. I think there is no doubt that Wing Chun's ancestor art was White Crane. The founding myth of Wing Chun talks about a combination of Snake and Crane. There is often a kernel of truth in old myths and legends. So to me, it seems logical that Wing Chun diverged from its White Crane roots when Snake aspects were included. When that happened, and the source of that Snake influence is not exactly clear. But given that certain motions that are "snake-like" in a lot of Wing Chun lineages seem to be very similar to the Emei Snake that Hendrik has shown pictures of, it seems logical to me. So until a better explanation comes along, I'm willing to go with this. I don't know about a "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen", but I have trained with Jim Roselando and respect his opinion on things. If he has actually spent time with a Emei Sifu and says that he sees lots of commonalities with Wing Chun, then I believe him.


Emei is first there and then the founder fuse with fujian white crane to create SNT.

Trying to avoid emei in SNT is like buying a BMW all wheel drive and trying to get rid of the BMW engine.


Technical speaking, I can understand , many people, including myself, are some times more concern on our face and title then wanting to see what the original face of the a SNT is like.

Jim is having an Emei 12 zhuang seminal with Gm Fu and many wcners in Boston in about two weeks time. Many wcners have tested the evoke of emei engine in thier SNT and they are not turning back.

[KPM]

i'm the calmest guy you ever met! hendrik's avoiding questions is like dealing with a two year old. i feel like homer simpson when he grabs bart by the neck! he answers questions with his snake engine, slithers them away!

Can I offer a little friendly advice Eddie? Drop the "chasing Hendrik" thing. Go back and read through that "best Wing Chun KO in MMA" thread. Maybe some of it will seem familiar, because the way you have been going after Hendrik certainly seems familiar to me! ;) On that thread Alan Orr wouldn't tell me what I wanted to hear and wouldn't give me any credit for the points I was trying to make. I'm stubborn and hard-headed. So I just kept pushing it until I managed to annoy and p!ss off a man I admire and respect for the work he has done. If you don't like what Hendrik has to say or how he says it, that's fine. Just drop it. There are lots of other things to post about and discuss.

[Hendrik]

This is what Jim report in the Fung Chun video

Tracing the Taiji Circle

In the lineages of Fung, Cho, Yuen and others there is a common Sao Kuen/Sik (Fist or Section Closing Sequence) often referred to as Lop Sao, which is also popular in most south fist traditions.


The Taiji Circle is “O”-shape and an older, symbolic term for the line the fingers follow when performing the action.


Fung Chun, head of the Fung family of Wing Chun, can be seen performing this on his son’s web site when demonstrating some basics of his art.

During lunch with Grandmaster Fu Wei Zong, I pulled out some Kuen Kuit notes which originated with Wing Chun ancestor Yik Kam (of the Red Junk opera) and passed down through the Cho family. Grandmaster Fu asked me to read them to him. At first I don’t think he realized what they were but when I told him they were notes from Miao Shun he stopped me. “This is your poetry?” he asked. “Yes”, I answered and continued to read on.

Grandmaster Fu stopped me again a number of times with questions about this or that note, but the one time that really stood out was when I read the term Taiji Circle. Grandmaster Fu asked me to show him what this was and after I showed him he said: “Yes! That is our Tracing the Taiji Circle!”

http://www.w1ng.com/mystery-of-the-snake-and-crane-emei-connection/


Gm Fung chun video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmXWjKPYIts&feature=youtube_gdata





So, the question is, do you think Jim, with his relationship with Gm Fung chun and PinSan is as stupid as me put his credential on line in 2007 when he wrote the above article and after years , two weeks later in May 2014, having Fu lead a seminal on emei in Boston with the wcners?

[deejaye72]

Can I offer a little friendly advice Eddie? Drop the "chasing Hendrik" thing. Go back and read through that "best Wing Chun KO in MMA" thread. Maybe some of it will seem familiar, because the way you have been going after Hendrik certainly seems familiar to me! ;) On that thread Alan Orr wouldn't tell me what I wanted to hear and wouldn't give me any credit for the points I was trying to make. I'm stubborn and hard-headed. So I just kept pushing it until I managed to annoy and p!ss off a man I admire and respect for the work he has done. If you don't like what Hendrik has to say or how he says it, that's fine. Just drop it. There are lots of other things to post about and discuss.

i dont respect or admire him, big difference. every single thing he talks about or that is shown, its rehashed internal arts i have seen in other arts. he doesnt hold a monopoly as he claims. if you grew up around it all your life you would understand. but, thats fine i'll let other people get a turn. i dont care what you think about me being hard headed ...its not nice to decieve people. if him and his students leave me alone, i'll leave him alone. fair enough

[GlennR]

Emei is first there and then the founder fuse with fujian white crane to create SNT.

Trying to avoid emei in SNT is like buying a BMW all wheel drive and trying to get rid of the BMW engine.


Oh will you **** off with your useless analogies!
You lunge for them everytime you cant answer questions......... which is all the time


Technical speaking, I can understand , many people, including myself, are some times more concern on our face and title then wanting to see what the original face of the a SNT is like.

No, people just dont buy nonsense ,which is what you peddle


Jim is having an Emei 12 zhuang seminal with Gm Fu and many wcners in Boston in about two weeks time. Many wcners have tested the evoke of emei engine in thier SNT and they are not turning back.

And most arent..... ive asked before and ill ask again, show me the FIGHTERS that have benefited from your ideas and im all ears......... otherwise go write a book on martial masturbation which im sure you have a degree in

[Hendrik]

Oh will you **** off with your useless analogies!
You lunge for them everytime you cant answer questions......... which is all the time



No, people just dont buy nonsense ,which is what you peddle

.

And most arent..... ive asked before and ill ask again, show me the FIGHTERS that have benefited from your ideas and im all ears......... otherwise go write a book on martial masturbation which im sure you have a degree in



You Carry your hatre on me don't you? Lol

[zuti car]

i dont respect or admire him, big difference. every single thing he talks about or that is shown, its rehashed internal arts i have seen in other arts. he doesnt hold a monopoly as he claims. if you grew up around it all your life you would understand. but, thats fine i'll let other people get a turn. i dont care what you think about me being hard headed ...its not nice to decieve people. if him and his students leave me alone, i'll leave him alone. fair enough

You are wrong in one thing , he is not deceiving people , he truly believes in all that emei stuff . Although , as many people pointed out his "research" in not really that , but rather collecting every piece of information , twisting things and pulling it out of the original context just to fit his believes . Poor man brainwashed him self and now , he is trying to catch some more believers for his martial cult . I have seen this kind of behavior so many times , classical Jehovah witness's behavior. When you press them down with real evidence they will avoid to answer directly and attack you personally or ignore you completely . Same thing here with him and some other" holders of holy truth of wing chun"

[GlennR]

You Carry your hatre on me don't you? Lol

No, i just dont tolerate fools

[zuti car]

Hendrik says how can I know SNT if I don't practice Emei Shier Zhuang, I say how does Fu Wei Zhong know SNT if he doesn't practice Wing Chun?

Hendrik knows and that Fu guy knows , you don't , now you have to learn to live with that :D

[GlennR]

Ha! You couldn't wait to throw that back at me. :) Hendrik is just getting under my skin a bit. The thing is he hasn't answered one question that I posed to him, just cherry picked my posts and avoided the subject by trying to turn things around again. On this thread and another I posted some very vailid questions concerning this whole Emei matter. Everyone of them was avoided. I even brought up some points on the oral traditions of several Crane lineages that were ignored as well. Now, he has been pointed out by an individual of his own lineage ascertaining to the fact that he has lied about Cho Family documents containing information linking Emei Shier Zhuang and YKWC.

I've stated it over and over again, that just because there is some simularities in movements and gestures doesn't mean that Emei Shier Zhuang is the "Snake Engine" of Wing Chun. I can reproduce the same results with a number of Qigong methods, not that they are needed to begin with. If Hendrik, Jim, Sergio, Robert and whomever else wants to add Emei Shier Zhuang to their Wing Chun practice because they believe that it "Turns" something on for them, good for them, I have no problem with it.

I will not kowtow to any of them and accept that my art is lacking simply on their word that Emei Shier Zhuang is the "Missing Link". I do not care who they are, whom they represent or how large a following they may have. There has been absolutely no "Proof" presented that I haven't been able to counter with a very logical viewpoint. This constant push to shove this Emei thing onto everyone reaks of a devious bigger agenda. It would be interesting if that would come to light, because I know I'm not the only one who thinks there is a bigger story here.

One doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to see that a side by side comparison of the two is tenuious at best. If someone wants to make the leap to connect the two, by all means go right ahead. Just don't try to convince me by misinterpreting oral traditions, producing sketchy documents out of thin air, outright lying, showing documents that make ambiguious statements and interpreting that as evidence because you think it to be related etc. Then claim it all to be truth.

I've tried to be fair about all of this and look at it with an open mind, but when I asked very relevant and important questions and got responses like I did, It makes me even more skeptical of it's validity. Best part is not one other person who supports the Emei Shier Zhuang / Wing Chun connection has come to his defense and answered any of my questions either.

There is absolutely no proof what-so-ever outside of the fake documentation presented to support the claims. Hendrik says Fu Wei Zhong told Jim Roselando that there is a link, I say the burden of proof lies with Fu Wei Zhong to prove it.

Hendrik says how can I know SNT if I don't practice Emei Shier Zhuang, I say how does Fu Wei Zhong know SNT if he doesn't practice Wing Chun?

Ahhhhh Dave
I feel your pain. Ive been arguing with this twit for years on this forum, for all the same reasons that you have.
He cherry picks what information he likes to suit his case and drops names like JR, RC ,and even poor old Rene Richie, to bolster his agenda filled claims.......... hes truly pathetic

And youre right, there is no proof, he just jumbled stuff together to suit his required outcomes, he has no peer examination of what he reports.
And whats his standard response.......... "i just deliver the facts"

As i said in a thread a little while ago, he basically spams the forum.

My only real concern is this though, that some poor unsuspecting folk buy his nonsense and start to follow "his way" of WC which i believe is a dead end to say the least.
I guess i like the idea that people like you (and me) call him on his nonsense and ,hopefully, help people avoid going down his path of martial masturbation

[Firehawk4]

But where did he learn the Emei Zhuang from ?

[GlennR]

Thank you. Sad thing is he does uncover some good historical information, unfortunately he twists it around to fit into his "Theory" on "Snake Engine" and how it has to be true because his brainwashed followers believe him. Him and his "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" can keep their sh!tty "Spiritual Gong" (cause that's what it is) I don't want anything to do with their cult. He should have his own forum like the Shaolin Do people where he and his croonies can wiggle their snakes and get their "Gong" on.

I meant to comment on your description "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen".......... bloody hilarious

And youre right, the sad thing is that he does have plenty to offer but he is convinced that 1 + 1 = 3 if i can put it that way

[Paddington]

As H.Santo has clarified he speaks for himself not on behalf of Ban Chung Wing Chun as past on by the Cho Family.

I have been learning from the Cho Family inheritors in SEA and Ng Wu, China for 8 years and nobody has acknowledged or heard it been said that there is any connection to Ermei. The only reference I have heard is to Siu Lam hence the old name to represent all old opera / red boat kung fu .. Ban Chung Siu Lam.

I do find it strange that after all these years of so called research and going back to China that H. Santo has never been back to Ng Wu to pay his respects and do research into the family names he uses so freely? I assure you both the Cho and Yik families are still around!

The fact is, as he has stated, he has found his own way and interpretation based on his own research into the other arts he has learnt .

I think you all need to back up a bit and ask Hendrik to address this post or perhaps encourage Hendrik and FongSung to converse without the distractions of other debates.

[GlennR]

I think you all need to back up a bit and ask Hendrik to address this post or perhaps encourage Hendrik and FongSung to converse without the distractions of other debates.

Really?
Im over trying to converse with the guy.... he cherry picks conversation just like history

[GlennR]

But where did he learn the Emei Zhuang from ?

Good question!!

[KPM]

Emei is first there and then the founder fuse with fujian white crane to create SNT.

.

But don't most lineage's Ng Mui legends say that she was a White Crane master before developing Wing Chun? Going with the "kernal of truth" idea, it seems to me that the legend would imply that White Crane was the root art from which Wing Chun developed. Given the strong similarities with Southern White Crane this makes sense. So what evidence is there that Emei was the root art to which White Crane was added rather than the other way around?

[KPM]

Ha! You couldn't wait to throw that back at me. :)

:p

Hendrik is just getting under my skin a bit. The thing is he hasn't answered one question that I posed to him, just cherry picked my posts and avoided the subject by trying to turn things around again. On this thread and another I posted some very vailid questions concerning this whole Emei matter. Everyone of them was avoided.

While you do have good points here, I would also like to take the opportunity to point out that your perspective here isn't too different from my perspective on that "best Wing Chun KO knockout" thread. I also asked what I saw as valid questions that were avoided. It sure seemed to me that people were trying to "turn things around" to make me the "disrespectful" one. I pretty much got reamed for expressing my opinion. I'm not saying you don't have good points or that there is a straight-up comparison here. I'm just saying take a good look at where you're coming from.


I will not kowtow to any of them and accept that my art is lacking simply on their word that Emei Shier Zhuang is the "Missing Link". I do not care who they are, whom they represent or how large a following they may have.

Again, consider. It was alright in the other thread to say "that's Wing Chun because Alan says it is....." But here you won't accept anyone else's opinion on this. Just seems a little off to me.


This constant push to shove this Emei thing onto everyone reaks of a devious bigger agenda. It would be interesting if that would come to light, because I know I'm not the only one who thinks there is a bigger story here.

Here you go with your paranoid "agenda" thing again. Just what "devious bigger agenda" might they have? No one is making any money off of this. Maybe someone is writing a book? Do you think they are going to get many sales in such a niche market? Is the "League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" planning a traveling roadshow of seminars? Not that I know of. Even if they did, again....not a big money maker. If anything, I see Hendrik's "agenda" as rather straight-forward. He thinks he has found something that is important for Wing Chun, he believes in it, he wants to share it because the more people that also believe it the better his discovery and theories are validated. Simple ego. Everyone wants to feel good about their work and feel like their ideas are appreciated and validated.



Hendrik says how can I know SNT if I don't practice Emei Shier Zhuang, I say how does Fu Wei Zhong know SNT if he doesn't practice Wing Chun?

Now THAT is a good point! ;)

[tc101]

But don't most lineage's Ng Mui legends say that she was a White Crane master before developing Wing Chun? Going with the "kernal of truth" idea, it seems to me that the legend would imply that White Crane was the root art from which Wing Chun developed. Given the strong similarities with Southern White Crane this makes sense. So what evidence is there that Emei was the root art to which White Crane was added rather than the other way around?

Ng Mui is a myth and is part of dozens of various styles history. The legends were taken and used over and over that is no kernel of truth.

Martial arts are not like paint where you can blend two paints. MMA is a perfect example. You are not combining bjj and boxing or combining boxing and mt or whatever. You cross train to develop different skills. You do not do what Hendrik thinks and learn white crane techniques and then use some other arts body mechanics lol. The techniques and the body mechanics are one unit not two separate things or to put it another way you cannot separate the two.

Hendrik's hang up is his lineage and his lineage ONLY adopted the ermei kuit some time in the past. He wants to believe that his is the original wing chun.

Yes there are similarities between wing chun and white crane but this is true of all southern fist so any similarities does not prove anything.

[Hendrik]

If anything, I see Hendrik's "agenda" as rather straight-forward. He thinks he has found something that is important for Wing Chun, he believes in it, he wants to share it because the more people that also believe it the better his discovery and theories are validated. Simple ego. Everyone wants to feel good about their work and feel like their ideas are appreciated and validated.


Nope, that is not my agenda. I careless on my ego


My agenda is


If Wck doesn't put back the emei core, SNT the core of Wck will be wipe out in 30 years or one generation.
All wcners deserve to know this and I don't force anyone to take what I present.



The future Wck historian will write about this.
Let see what happen 30 years from today, am I being proven right or I am nuts and full of it. That simple.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik says how can I know SNT if I don't practice Emei Shier Zhuang, I say how does Fu Wei Zhong know SNT if he doesn't practice Wing Chun?



I say :
if you don't know the emei 12 zhuang technology you will not be able to activate the part of SNT.

Fu wei Zhong doesn't have to know SNT to know emei 12 zhuang because he is the grand master of it.



Have a clear mind, otherwise, you are twisting things around. It will make you looks very very bad in the years to come if I was prove correct by other wcner researchers.

[Hendrik]

You long-time regulars on this forum all seem very knowledgeable about TCMA and names/places/events etc. But, based on what I have read and basing my opinion on my own upbringing in wing chun, my stance is this:

I'm with Dave on this whole weirdness.

Don't know any of you from adam...but personally I agree with Dave's view on his own WC... I don't think anything is missing from any of my "engines" or "DNA" or whatever you want to call them. Just my .02. Well done Dave.


I'd have to physically experience the 'ancient' stuff and then compare it to my stuff. But as some have pointed out, what's the use/point if it (aka the 'secret') doesn't / can't / won't lend itself to the dynamics of hand-to-hand combatives in a live situation(?)



May be I am trying to bring education the wcners similar to trying to tell everyone the planet earth is round?


As for
But as some have pointed out, what's the use/point if it (aka the 'secret') doesn't / can't / won't lend itself to the dynamics of hand-to-hand combatives in a live situation(?)

Ask those who has the skill before making conclusion.

[Hendrik]

If it's missing it must have been taken out for a reason, or maybe it was never there in the first place. Either way, why wait 30 years? Let those who want it take it. Then go jump off a bridge into oncoming traffic so the rest of us can go back to practicing our watered down Wing Chun.

No one prohibit you to practice what you like.

In the opposite, why get so emotional on opposition of ideas?

[LFJ]

I'd have to physically experience the 'ancient' stuff and then compare it to my stuff. But as some have pointed out, what's the use/point if it (aka the 'secret') doesn't / can't / won't lend itself to the dynamics of hand-to-hand combatives in a live situation(?)

That's where I'm at too. No one has demonstrated its martial value at all, much less its supposed superior martial value. So leave the "martial masturbation" to the "researchers" until they start showing something interesting.

[LFJ]

As for
But as some have pointed out, what's the use/point if it (aka the 'secret') doesn't / can't / won't lend itself to the dynamics of hand-to-hand combatives in a live situation(?)

Ask those who has the skill before making conclusion.

Who and where are they exactly?

[HybridWarrior]

May be I am trying to bring education the wcners similar to trying to tell everyone the planet earth is round?

Perhaps....jury's still out...



Ask those who has the skill before making conclusion.


I shall ask, if I ever meet one. Thx.

[GlennR]

No one prohibit you to practice what you like.

In the opposite, why get so emotional on opposition of ideas?

Youre the one who says "you hate me dont you" all the time


Why get so emotional??

[GlennR]

That's where I'm at too. No one has demonstrated its martial value at all, much less its supposed superior martial value. So leave the "martial masturbation" to the "researchers" until they start showing something interesting.

Yep, thats the elephant in the room he avoids

[Wayfaring]

Call me crazy but I coulda swore I saw a picture of Hung Gun Biu in that video. :eek: