Is Siu Lim Tao enough?

[Minghequan]

There has been a lot of discussion here about Siu Nim Tao (小練頭; xiǎo liàn tóu) on the forum lately.

As a bit of an outsider looking in I wonder if the Siu Lim Tao Form is enough?

Do you really need the other forms or is Siu Nim Tao enough to truly master Wing Chun?

Should the form be done at great speed and strength (like some forms of Wing Chun) or should it be softer, fluid (like Snake Crane Wing Chun for example)?

Which is better in your opinion and why?

In my Zhenlan Minghequan, we follow the adage of "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fluid & Fast" (慢是光滑，光滑是流體和快速)

[Graham H]

As a bit of an outsider looking in I wonder if the Siu Lim Tao Form is enough?

Do you really need the other forms or is Siu Nim Tao enough to truly master Wing Chun?



Siu Lim Tao on its own is not enough. In fact SLT only forms the very basic fundamentals of the system. Not only physical but also mentally SLT acts as the foundation form.
The form consists of actions and ideas that have been dismantled and separated so that the student can learn the core elements. Translated as “the small (or young) idea” it begins the process of growth. Certain basic strategic concepts such as facing square to the opponent, the central line idea and force generation are all inside. Basic co-ordination and synchronized actions teach the student how to move the arms but only in a one dimensional context.

Fundamental simplification of human actions and error correction.

Without Chum Kiu, SLT actually makes no sense because we are not rotating or moving the stance in any way. Just training the structure of it. The integration of the hip/elbow force rotation has not yet been introduced. How we can control our actions through abrupt stopping and starting has not been introduced. Balance, mobility, kicking, footwork ideas and punching concepts are added in CK but now in a three dimensional way so that the student can learn how to apply Ving Tsun correctly using simple and direct methods.

As well as SLT, Chum Kiu movements and ideas are abstract. They are learning tools broken down for individual needs. The cycle of chi sau – gwoh sau – sparring we learn to apply these ideas.

So the answer to your question in my opinion is NO! SLT is pointless without the rest of the system. People that think SLT is a fighting form in which one can survive a fight using it's methods have very basic and misinterpreted understanding of the system. People that do not have a sound understanding of the rest will obviously over indulge in SLT and this is incorrect. You can see the problem everywhere. People trying to chain blast up the middle fighting from YJKYM position.

No wonder the system gets so much bad press these days.

You only have to read through Hendriks posts to see what problems we have out there in the big wide world. Snake worm engine theories, or whatever, for fighting are for people that live in clouds.

Troll over xx

[KPM]

Good post Graham! One "unofficial" kuen kuit I've heard is "Chum Kiu puts wheels on your Siu Lim Tao." :)


Siu Lim Tao on its own is not enough. In fact SLT only forms the very basic fundamentals of the system. Not only physical but also mentally SLT acts as the foundation form.
The form consists of actions and ideas that have been dismantled and separated so that the student can learn the core elements. Translated as “the small (or young) idea” it begins the process of growth. Certain basic strategic concepts such as facing square to the opponent, the central line idea and force generation are all inside. Basic co-ordination and synchronized actions teach the student how to move the arms but only in a one dimensional context.

Fundamental simplification of human actions and error correction.

Without Chum Kiu, SLT actually makes no sense because we are not rotating or moving the stance in any way. Just training the structure of it. The integration of the hip/elbow force rotation has not yet been introduced. How we can control our actions through abrupt stopping and starting has not been introduced. Balance, mobility, kicking, footwork ideas and punching concepts are added in CK but now in a three dimensional way so that the student can learn how to apply Ving Tsun correctly using simple and direct methods.

As well as SLT, Chum Kiu movements and ideas are abstract. They are learning tools broken down for individual needs. The cycle of chi sau – gwoh sau – sparring we learn to apply these ideas.

So the answer to your question in my opinion is NO! SLT is pointless without the rest of the system. People that think SLT is a fighting form in which one can survive a fight using it's methods have very basic and misinterpreted understanding of the system. People that do not have a sound understanding of the rest will obviously over indulge in SLT and this is incorrect. You can see the problem everywhere. People trying to chain blast up the middle fighting from YJKYM position.

No wonder the system gets so much bad press these days.

You only have to read through Hendriks posts to see what problems we have out there in the big wide world. Snake worm engine theories, or whatever, for fighting are for people that live in clouds.

Troll over xx

[deejaye72]

"unofficial" kuen kuit I've heard is "Chum Kiu puts wheels on your Siu Lim Tao."

i've heard that one to keith, i always liked it. my sigung always says the two most important forms in the wing chun system are
siu nim tao and chum kiu.

[Graham H]

Good post Graham! One "unofficial" kuen kuit I've heard is "Chum Kiu puts wheels on your Siu Lim Tao." :)

Very true Keith. Some people can't see the wood for the trees and all of a sudden SLT becomes something it was never meant to be (IMO). Every system needs a foundation and start point. SLT is like the alphabet. I could not have a conversation with you in letters. We have to form sentences then conversations and SLT cannot do that alone.

SLT is very important and should be continually practiced through-out the practitioners life time of Ving Tsun.

As for the "kuen kuit" everybody is entitled to their own opinion on it.

I personally don't like it............

[Graham H]

i've heard that one to keith, i always liked it. my sigung always says the two most important forms in the wing chun system are
siu nim tao and chum kiu.

Not true (IMO)

They are all as important as each other. It is a complete system and only dismantled for learning purposes.

[Ali. R]

Sli Lum Tao is more than enough, with the teacher.


Take care,

[deejaye72]

Not true (IMO)

They are all as important as each other. It is a complete system and only dismantled for learning purposes.

true i agree. i think he is just trying to emphasize how important the first steps are.

[Graham H]

true i agree. i think he is just trying to emphasize how important the first steps are.

In that context I agree ;)

[Graham H]

Sli Lum Tao is more than enough, with the teacher.


Take care,

For you perhaps but then you are the guy that thinks things take 20 years to master. You and your students may agree but I do not! Ving Tsun is a very simple, clear and precise system. The students hard work and willingemss to apply determines their proficiency. Sure skill comes from time spent practicing but that is where it ends otherwise maybe we can't become good at Vt until we have checked into the old people's home! :D

[sanjuro_ronin]

No one "needs" any form, no forms are actually "needed" any any MA system.
That said, when used properly and for what they were designed for by those that developed them, they certainly help.

[Ali. R]

Good one.


For you perhaps but then you are the guy that thinks things take 20 years to master. You and your students may agree but I do not! Ving Tsun is a very simple, clear and precise system. The students hard work and willingemss to apply determines their proficiency. Sure skill comes from time spent practicing but that is where it ends otherwise maybe we can't become good at Vt until we have checked into the old people's home! :D


No one said anything about not being good in what you do, that has nothing to do with it. It’s not how good you are, but how good you can be. Master your SLT (fundamentals) and don’t worry about the other stuff before its time.


Take care,

[Graham H]

No one "needs" any form, no forms are actually "needed" any any MA system.
That said, when used properly and for what they were designed for by those that developed them, they certainly help.

How can you say that? It seems slight contradictive to me. :confused:

That's like saying that a young child does not need a Teacher or to learn their ABC's. Sound learning processes are not just to do with Ving Tsun. It is a necessity of life and all humans need it otherwise the world would be a very different place.

The evolution of Ving Tsun has adopted a method of learning and we do that via the forms and interim drills. Humans have been fighting way before any MA doctrines were invented but they needed to create, learn, preserve and maintain the system.That's the way it is.

No need for it?????????????????????

[Graham H]

Good one.




No one said anything about not being good in what you do, that has nothing to do with it. It’s not how good you are, but how good you can be. Master your SLT (fundamentals) and don’t worry about the other stuff before its time.


Take care,

Yes and that time is when a student is ready. Depending on the student with dilligent training then 3-6 months is no problem otherwise it will in fact cause errors. SLT then becomes a maintenance form. No need for any other ideas.

i don't want a sparring match with you. Our systems could not be more different. I prefer other ideas.

[LFJ]

How can you say that? It seems slight contradictive to me. :confused:

That's like saying that a young child does not need a Teacher or to learn their ABC's. Sound learning processes are not just to do with Ving Tsun. It is a necessity of life and all humans need it otherwise the world would be a very different place.

The evolution of Ving Tsun has adopted a method of learning and we do that via the forms and interim drills. Humans have been fighting way before any MA doctrines were invented but they needed to create, learn, preserve and maintain the system.That's the way it is.

No need for it?????????????????????

I agree, but, I knew a guy who trained for 4 years just doing chi-sau and serious sparring on a regular basis. His teacher never taught him the forms. He wiped the floor with a group of guys boasting 10+ years in their CMAs.

[Graham H]

I agree, but, I knew a guy who trained for 4 years just doing chi-sau and serious sparring on a regular basis. His teacher never taught him the forms. He wiped the floor with a group of guys boasting 10+ years in their CMAs.

People don't need Martial Arts in order to be able to fight. It's an evolutionary thing that we are all capable of. Some people are better than others. That's life. If the forms weren't so important generally then why have them at all?

Most systems of Ving Tsun descend into BS frenzied kick boxing at best. Put two people together and tell them to punch and kick each for a year and they will be good fighters. In that case no need for Ving Tsun.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1267451]There has been a lot of discussion here about Siu Nim Tao (小練頭; xiǎo liàn tóu) on the forum lately.

As a bit of an outsider looking in I wonder if the Siu Lim Tao Form is enough?

(((SLT is the most important fundamental text book for those who are interested in an Ip Man approach to kung fu training. SLT has different sections- each with principles built into them while developing structure strength. I have been doing wing chun since 1976- except for three days I have done slt every day sometimes more than once a day.
When done right slt has breathing principles. The first section when done slowly trains the fundamental tan, bong(wu), fok families of motions and the huen.

The chum kiu builds principles of full body motion on top pf the structure developed in slt.
You never finish mastering wing chun if you are serious about the wing chun way. There are other ways and depending on the competence of the teaching
and the practice and the experience- there are diversities in wing chun training..))Joy

[Hendrik]

Combat is based on momentum and force flow.
There are two core handling needed to handle momentum and force flow, and they are receiving and sending


Thus, in the wck core kuit, it says, come Receive, goes Send.
SNT is to develop the foundation of Receiving and sending.


emei snake engine is the core design and embedded in SNT to
develop the short strike art receiving and sending.
Simple, sophisticated, elegance, and complete.


Similar to yin and yang , receiving and sending manifest to millions of things
That is called

Ten thousand things source from the small area.

in the emei 12 zhuang kuit.



Those who has developed the receiving and sending ability stays in peace,
no matter how the momentum changes.
For there is only two handling needed------ receiving and sending


If one don't know this summary of wck, and SNT to develop it, what does one train and expert it?


Without the six core elements and seven bows handling, how can one master receiving and sending?


such a simple thing open under the public, but ignored by most in the past 160 years.

Wck is simple, sophisticated, and elegance.
Like water, it only do receiving and sending in the direct, roundabout, and return to origin momentum.



SNT is enough for the core. No need to patch up with other stuffs while don't know it's purpose and goal.
Missing this above is totally missing the key of wck .

[Graham H]

The first section when done slowly trains the fundamental tan, bong(wu), fok families of motions and the huen.



So in your ways what does Tan, Fook and Bong specifically train in SLT? What is it's purpose? Why practice them repetetively and slowly? Especially fook sau.

[Ali. R]

So in your ways what does Tan, Fook and Bong specifically train in SLT? What is it's purpose? Why practice them repetetively and slowly? Especially fook sau.


That’s for you to find out within three to six months of SLT training. :D


Take care,

[Graham H]

That’s for you to find out within three to six months of SLT training. :D


Take care,

I know exactly why "i" practice these things but the reasons why across the lineages mostly contradict each other. maybe you could offer your opinion as well as Joy. After all they are most important and maybe we could benefit from your years of mastery! :D

[Hendrik]

So in your ways what does Tan, Fook and Bong specifically train in SLT? What is it's purpose? Why practice them repetetively and slowly? Especially fook sau.

Tan , bong, Fook, and kei Are the basic four motion to cover the receiving and sending handling of the x y z axis or + in front of one's center line. Train slowly to buildup force flow path and force flow in and out from the ground. Fook or any move, train Gradually is to make sure the handling of receivng and sending is even, effecient, and continous.
The emei snake slide worm move technology of joints handling is core of making this happen.


A great crystal clear top down designed, when see it as it is .

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1267479]So in your ways what does Tan, Fook and Bong specifically train in SLT? What is it's purpose? Why practice them repetetively and slowly? Especially fook sau.[/QUOTE
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Repetition helps in the embedding of the skills. Doing the first section slowly helps develop CONTROL over every aspect of the motions.
The transitions from tan, fok and bong helps control the flow of hand motions around you in protecting the body and mounting the attacks.
Of course there is much more to this.


Sure one can fight without knowing forms but the forms are the gates to the wing chun way of doing it.

[Graham H]

Tan , bong, Fook, and kei Are the basic four motion to cover the receiving and sending handling of the x y z axis or + in front of one's center line. Train slowly to buildup force flow path and force flow in and out from the ground. Gradually is to make sure the handling of receivng and sending is even effecient, and continous.
The emei snake slide worm move technology of joints handling is core of making this happen.


A great crystal clear top down designed, when see it as it is .

What do they send and receive? You are saying that Bong, Tan and Fook receive oncoming punches? Really? :confused:

So why only one Tan and three Fook in the beginning? Fook recieves more punches?! :confused::eek::D

[Graham H]

The transitions from tan, fok and bong helps control the flow of hand motions around you in protecting the body and mounting the attacks.
Of course there is much more to this.

So in your way they are for blocking punches?

[Hendrik]

So in your way they are for blocking punches?

Wck receive and send, block punch are not primary alternative

[Hendrik]

What do they send and receive? You are saying that Bong, Tan and Fook receive oncoming punches? Really? :confused:

So why only one Tan and three Fook in the beginning? Fook recieves more punches?! :confused::eek::D



Read Gm Ipman interview on his description of wck .
The same wck him or me,
I am only filling the gap on how to get there with emei 12 zhuang technology in the SNT design.

[Ali. R]

So in your way they are for blocking punches?


Not just blocking punches, but; “Yut Fook Yee” or “Da”.


Take care,

[KPM]

How can you say that? It seems slight contradictive to me. :confused:

That's like saying that a young child does not need a Teacher or to learn their ABC's. Sound learning processes are not just to do with Ving Tsun. It is a necessity of life and all humans need it otherwise the world would be a very different place.

The evolution of Ving Tsun has adopted a method of learning and we do that via the forms and interim drills. Humans have been fighting way before any MA doctrines were invented but they needed to create, learn, preserve and maintain the system.That's the way it is.

No need for it?????????????????????

I agree with Graham. Even boxing has "forms" to an extent. IMHO, western boxing trains forms in a San Sik format. Every time a boxer drills a combination of 3 movements that is essentially a San Sik. They learn the basic combos like "jab, cross, hook" and then work it on the pads, against the heavy bag, and with a partner.

[sanjuro_ronin]

How can you say that? It seems slight contradictive to me. :confused:

That's like saying that a young child does not need a Teacher or to learn their ABC's. Sound learning processes are not just to do with Ving Tsun. It is a necessity of life and all humans need it otherwise the world would be a very different place.

The evolution of Ving Tsun has adopted a method of learning and we do that via the forms and interim drills. Humans have been fighting way before any MA doctrines were invented but they needed to create, learn, preserve and maintain the system.That's the way it is.

No need for it?????????????????????

Nope, no need for forms.
There are many MA that don't use forms like SLT in their development and training and their practitioners do quitter well for themselves.
To suggest that WC needs any form is to suggest that it is inferior to any MA that doesn't require them.
I am sure WC was WC before SLT came to be, I don't think that the creator(s) of WC developed SLT or any form and THEN developed WC.

That said, like I mentioned, if a form that was developed for a system is use din the way that it was intended, then it will be beneficial for that system.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree with Graham. Even boxing has "forms" to an extent. IMHO, western boxing trains forms in a San Sik format. Every time a boxer drills a combination of 3 movements that is essentially a San Sik. They learn the basic combos like "jab, cross, hook" and then work it on the pads, against the heavy bag, and with a partner.

SLT, or any prearranged/pre-choreographed form is nothing like the "forms" in boxing and you know that.
What makes boxing "shadow boxing forms" beneficial to boxers is that they are NOT prearranged or prechoreagraphed BUT that they flow from the fighter without any set predetermined sequence.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Graham H;1267485]So in your way they are for blocking punches?[/QUOTE-----------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not just blocking punches...for hand structures and their applications for wing chun approach to martial development.

Hands have to be coordinated with body structure and footwork embedded in chum kiu, biu jee, mok jong, kwan
and bot jam do. Its all put together for development- and put into dan chi sao, poon sao, luk sao, lop sao, gor sao.
lat sao, man sao and related two person timing drills. All this for development. It is not fighting itself.
If you have to fight- you fight

[kung fu fighter]

There has been a lot of discussion here about Siu Nim Tao (小練頭; xiǎo liàn tóu) on the forum lately.

As a bit of an outsider looking in I wonder if the Siu Lim Tao Form is enough?

Do you really need the other forms or is Siu Nim Tao enough to truly master Wing Chun?

Depends on which linage you are speaking about, in the Yik Kam linage it is because the concepts and ideas of all 3 empty hands sets are imbeded in their SLT set. In the 3 set system, no it's only the foundation form.


Should the form be done at great speed and strength (like some forms of Wing Chun) or should it be softer, fluid (like Snake Crane Wing Chun for example)?

Which is better in your opinion and why?

In my Zhenlan Minghequan, we follow the adage of "Slow is Smooth, Smooth is Fluid & Fast" (慢是光滑，光滑是流體和快速)

Besides what Hendrik already mentioned, I have seen the form done with different emphasis.

I remember Ho Kam Ming teaching the form with dynamic tension to re-enforce structure.
Fung Keung does it smooth and slow with a soft emphasis to cultivate chi
And others do it with Ging with a fighting emphasis.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=kung fu fighter;1267501]Depends on which linage you are speaking about, in the Yik Kam linage it is because the concepts and ideas of all 3 empty hands sets are imbeded in their SLT set. In the 3 set system, no it's only the foundation form.



Besides what Hendrik already mentioned, I have seen the form done with different emphasis.

I remember Ho Kam Ming teaching the form with dynamic tension to re-enforce structure.

Navin: ((Not really. Dynamic tension is not the right description.. Correct and balanced movement IMO))Joy

[KPM]

SLT, or any prearranged/pre-choreographed form is nothing like the "forms" in boxing and you know that.
What makes boxing "shadow boxing forms" beneficial to boxers is that they are NOT prearranged or prechoreagraphed BUT that they flow from the fighter without any set predetermined sequence.

Are you saying that combinations of 3 moves are not "predetermined?" If a fighter has a series of combo's to work on like Jab/Cross/Hook, Jab/Jab/Cross, or Hook/Cross/Hook are those not "predetermined"? Maybe you are unaware of what makes a San Sik. But in the Wing Chun I train there is no long SLT form. There are San Siks of approximately 3 moves each. They are trained much like boxing combinations and are considered short "forms."

[Vajramusti]

Depends on which linage you are speaking about, in the Yik Kam linage it is because the concepts and ideas of all 3 empty hands sets are imbeded in their SLT set. In the 3 set system, no it's only the foundation form.



Besides what Hendrik already mentioned, I have seen the form done with different emphasis.

I remember Ho Kam Ming teaching the form with dynamic tension to re-enforce structure.
Fung Keung does it smooth and slow with a soft emphasis to cultivate chi
And others do it with Ging with a fighting emphasis.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Ho Kam ming does not do Charles Atlas dynamic tension- just controlled motion and structure.

No comment on YKor Fung. There are many lineages. Each to his own.

[Vajramusti]

Are you saying that combinations of 3 moves are not "predetermined?" If a fighter has a series of combo's to work on like Jab/Cross/Hook, Jab/Jab/Cross, or Hook/Cross/Hook are those not "predetermined"? Maybe you are unaware of what makes a San Sik. But in the Wing Chun I train there is no long SLT form. There are San Siks of approximately 3 moves each. They are trained much like boxing combinations and are considered short "forms."
-----------------------------------
I try- don't always succeed in discussing labels and definitions or atleasst arguing about them.
Boxing has combinations of techniques-- not really forms. But jabs, hooks, cross, uppercuts
result in many permutations and combinations of punches- within refereed rules.

In what I do there are single hand and double hand san sik motions...in varying possible sequences.
I dont call them forms.

[Hendrik]

Traditional way or one own intepletation way


http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67606-A-question-on-Sanshi-Sansik&p=1267507#post1267507

[kung fu fighter]

Navin: ((Not really. Dynamic tension is not the right description.. Correct and balanced movement IMO)) Ho Kam ming does not do Charles Atlas dynamic tension- just controlled motion and structure.

I agree joy, dynamic tension was the closest discription I could think of to explain the tension used to maintain controlled motion structure.

[Hendrik]

I agree joy, dynamic tension was the closest discription I could think of to explain the tension used to maintain controlled motion in the structure.

Actually, dynamic tension to describe SNT practice is not accurate if I may picky.


Once there is tension, there is local tensing. It will lost the adaptability .

Dynamic muscle handling is what I think accurate .

[sanjuro_ronin]

-----------------------------------
I try- don't always succeed in discussing labels and definitions or atleasst arguing about them.
Boxing has combinations of techniques-- not really forms. But jabs, hooks, cross, uppercuts
result in many permutations and combinations of punches- within refereed rules.

In what I do there are single hand and double hand san sik motions...in varying possible sequences.
I dont call them forms.

This.
Forms are predetermined AND choreographed moves that the probationer must follow in sequence.
SLT is a form.
Doing combinations in whatever manner you decide is NOT a form.

[tc101]

Are you saying that combinations of 3 moves are not "predetermined?" If a fighter has a series of combo's to work on like Jab/Cross/Hook, Jab/Jab/Cross, or Hook/Cross/Hook are those not "predetermined"? Maybe you are unaware of what makes a San Sik. But in the Wing Chun I train there is no long SLT form. There are San Siks of approximately 3 moves each. They are trained much like boxing combinations and are considered short "forms."

Here's the thing boxers took combinations they found were actually occurring when they sparred and fought and then practice them on the bags mitts and so on. I can show you or you can find videos of these combos in sparring or fighting very easily.

Can you show me any videos of wing chun sparring where you or anyone are using your San Sik with any regularity?

That is why boxing combinations are not forms and your San Sik is.

[Minghequan]

Thanks for the discussion. It's good to hear! Thank you all for sharing .... yes even you Hendrik ("Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice!" ... its a joke!;) )

I think SNT is for Wing Chun what SanZhan is for White Crane ... a pivotal form of some importance because it encapsulates the main concepts and principles of the respective arts.

[GlennR]

So in your way they are for blocking punches?

Princess Graham.......... youre back!

[Graham H]

Princess Graham.......... youre back!

It was a pit stop and one I wish I hadn't made, sweety! xx

Ciao