Leung Ting, Knife Form

[LFJ]

:D:D:D


http://youtu.be/bmftLF6QbWA

[Minghequan]

Really??? :D:D:D

[BPWT..]

Different to yours, I take it?

[LFJ]

Oh yeah. Same as yours? :D

[BPWT..]

No problem for me if there's differences. :) Take it up with Yip Man. :D

I'm not familiar with the WSL set, to be honest with you, so I'm not sure how you do yours.

But years ago Robert Chu (who has seen most YM WCK knife sets, including WSL's of course, as well as sets from outside of the YM line) said this about the LT Wing Tsun knife work:

"I saw Leung Ting's set demonstrated and taught to me by Allan Fong, his East Coast representative many years ago. It is a very good set. But of course, Allan Fong is no longer part of his organisation" and then, "Before you judge me too quickly, I am not an instructor of Wing Tsun - Leung Ting system. I feel I have every right to explain that clearly and don't dare to misrepresent myself. And I am correct in saying so - the WT system has a very good set passed down from Yip Man to Leung Ting."

[Graham H]

Oh yeah. Same as yours? :D

That has to be the worse show of knives I've seen. Even Ip Chun's is better than that. Everything completely wrong and most of all dangerous to the user.

[BPWT..]

Yes, Graham, it's not a video of PB. :D

[Graham H]

Yes, Graham, it's not a video of PB. :D

It makes no difference who's in the video. My comment was based on my observation of his usage of the blades. They are wrong. Simple as that. If you think they are correct and representitive of Yip Man that's fine. We disagree. No biggie.

[BPWT..]

Yes - that's what I meant. Wrong from a PBVT perspective.

LT would say right from a YM perspective, as that's who he learnt it from. :)

So agreed, no biggie. Your method, my method, different things and that's all good, IMO.

[Graham H]

Yes - that's what I meant. Wrong from a PBVT perspective.

LT would say right from a YM perspective, as that's who he learnt it from. :)

So agreed, no biggie. Your method, my method, different things and that's all good, IMO.

Dude LT learnt hardly anything from Yip Man. I guess if he told you he was your Dad you would believe him. What LT is good at is marketing himself and as he's quite well off I take my hat off to him. The validity of his Kung Fu has always been in question and in many circles he is considered a joke. Really nobody can be bothered with him. Many just are amazed at how many people flock to his door but like I said he is a mass marketer and obviously good at it.

If LT's Kung Fu is a representation of Yip Man then I would have to say YM was BS as well. We all know he wasn't so the buck has to end with LT.

I admire your loyalty but you really don't know too much about anything but I can see you like the internet fighting. You are good at that although you seem to be more a punch bag these days rather than offer anybody any credible information.

No more from me. Ciao

[tc101]

Dude LT learnt hardly anything from Yip Man. I guess if he told you he was your Dad you would believe him. What LT is good at is marketing himself and as he's quite well off I take my hat off to him. The validity of his Kung Fu has always been in question and in many circles he is considered a joke. Really nobody can be bothered with him. Many just are amazed at how many people flock to his door but like I said he is a mass marketer and obviously good at it.

If LT's Kung Fu is a representation of Yip Man then I would have to say YM was BS as well. We all know he wasn't so the buck has to end with LT.

I admire your loyalty but you really don't know too much about anything but I can see you like the internet fighting. You are good at that although you seem to be more a punch bag these days rather than offer anybody any credible information.

No more from me. Ciao

What does it matter how much he directly learned from Yip Man? Yes he was very good set marketing himself. He is not alone in wing chun circles there. I do not know what you mean by validity of his gung fu. He has produced some good people. Some of them might be able to easily wipe the floor with you. What does that mean? He knows wing chun, he is a scoundrel at making money, he promotes himself and makes little of others, many of his followers thinks the sun shines out his arse and so forth. That describes him and many others also including you know who. I am sure some in wing chun consider him a joke but that could be said of just about anyone including you know who. The old your teacher is a bum and my teacher is the real deal is a little boy folly.

Its just a form nothing more.

[Graham H]

What does it matter how much he directly learned from Yip Man?.

Oh dear! The idiot disease is spreading. :rolleyes:

[Frost]

Oh dear! The idiot disease is spreading. :rolleyes:

its a valid question, how much does lineage matter

i mean we all saw how well a direct student of PB (WSLs long term direct student who was in turn one of yip mans longest serving students) did against someone whose lineage wasnt that close to Yip man, he got his ass handed to him in a friendly chi sao match :) So how much does lineage matter :)

[tc101]

its a valid question, how much does lineage matter

i mean we all saw how well a direct student of PB (WSLs long term direct student who was in turn one of yip mans longest serving students) did against someone whose lineage wasnt that close to Yip man, he got his ass handed to him in a friendly chi sao match :) So how much does lineage matter :)

Some people love lineage because they like the comfort of thinking my teacher is the real deal and giving me the good stuff while his teacher is a fraud or incompetent leading him down the garden path. That makes me feel superior knowing that I have the true understanding lol.

[BPWT..]

Dude LT learnt hardly anything from Yip Man.

That's a pretty bold statement, considering that you weren't there and, in fact, YM had died before you'd even heard of Wing Chun. Did PB tell you this (he was there?); or WSL told you this (he was there at those private lessons too?); or are you claiming that YM himself told WSL this, who in turn told PB, who then told you?

If you, Graham, had learnt most of the WSL system from a teacher, and then you met PB and had the chance to have a private lesson with him each and every week... for about a year and a half... and in addition, each time you visited you also later grabbed a coffee with the man and spend a couple of hours talking WCK and asking all and any questions you liked... are you saying you'd have "learn't hardly anything" from PB during that year and a half?

You've actually been visiting PB for a good few years. How often do you visit? How many hours of personal one-to-one tuition have you had?



What LT is good at is marketing himself and as he's quite well off I take my hat off to him.

Yes, he is - and as a result he pi$$ed off quite a few WCK guys in Hong Kong who had been learning far longer, and had far fewer students. LT was interviewed by magazines, appeared on TV, etc. Some felt a little left out.



The validity of his Kung Fu has always been in question and in many circles he is considered a joke.

See above.

Plus, YM himself didn't seem to question LT's Kung Fu. So who did... yes, other teachers from the YM line. Surprise surprise. (Edit: it is no coincidence, I think, that LT's critics only started that criticism after Yip Man died. Strangely, none of them voiced these opinions when YM was alive to respond to them. I wonder why.)



yadda yadda ... rather than offer anybody any credible information.

What credible information are you after?

Look, I know where this comes from - whenever you decide to post. It always leads to the LT bashing. LT's WT is very different to PB's approach to the system. Because you see PB's approach as being right, you convince yourself that all other approaches are wrong.

Your above arguments are very silly indeed. You don't live in Germany and so I doubt very much that you visit PB on a weekly basis... yet you seem to take issue with LT's learning from Yip Man (about a year and a half with him), even though - of course - your teacher himself never met Yip Man once.

If you like learning from PB, that's great. He looks very talented. But when you say things like "Dude LT learnt hardly anything from Yip Man", I would ask you something you've just thrown up as a weird criticism of me... where is your credible information to support this silly statement?

[LFJ]

its a valid question, how much does lineage matter

i mean we all saw how well a direct student of PB (WSLs long term direct student who was in turn one of yip mans longest serving students) did against someone whose lineage wasnt that close to Yip man, he got his ass handed to him in a friendly chi sao match :) So how much does lineage matter :)

Graham's comment wasn't about lineage. It isn't whether or not he learned from Yip Man, but how much he learned that is the question.

It's the same issue with Kevin apparently. Unconfirmed or denied, but it was mentioned that he only met and trained with PB twice in 7 years.

[LFJ]

I do not know what you mean by validity of his gung fu. He has produced some good people.

Such as Kernschlecht?

It's interesting you harp on people not training realistically on here all the time, but that video didn't make you laugh out loud?

[Frost]

Graham's comment wasn't about lineage. It isn't whether or not he learned from Yip Man, but how much he learned that is the question.

It's the same issue with Kevin apparently. Unconfirmed or denied, but it was mentioned that he only met and trained with PB twice in 7 years.

actually it was, the whole lineage thing comes down to BOTH long you trained with someone, and who that someone was, like i said does it really matter since those who trained directly with WSL for a long time havent shown us they can fight, and when kevin was claiming to be the senior of PB and the one turning everyone here on to him no one questioned that, all the rest of the PB crowd and the WSL crowd here were happy to ride his coattails and PB was happy to allow him to do that, to allow him to set up seminars etc
It was only after we saw how badly he handled Sean that we suddenly get unconfirmed reports of how long he trained or didnt train etc

[BPWT..]

How much is enough? How little is not enough?

Leung Ting gave a Wing Tsun Kung-fu demonstration at the Baptist College. Yip Man, who had been teaching Leung Ting privately, attended the event to lend support. Soon after, Yip Man recommended that Leung Ting take the post of chief-instructor at the Ving Tsun Athletic Association.

I guess YM thought that LT had "learn't enough."

Graham, in his wisdom, obviously knows better than Yip Man. :rolleyes:

[LFJ]

@Beatrice,

Since there's a PBVT school in your current city it's really an opportunity to see firsthand how their system works and differs from LTWT. You really should take the time to cross the street. Then you might understand their point of view. I'm sure the school would be open to having you by.

[LFJ]

actually it was, the whole lineage thing comes down to BOTH long you trained with someone, and who that someone was,

He only commented on the amount of learning, and you commented on the person. You're talking about two different things.


those who trained directly with WSL for a long time havent shown us they can fight,

Waddle into one of their schools and test them then.

[BPWT..]

@Beatrice, Since there's a PBVT school in your current city it's really an opportunity to see firsthand how their system works and differs from LTWT. You really should take the time to cross the street. Then you might understand their point of view. I'm sure the school would be open to having you by.

When I'm in town for more than 4 or 5 days at a time, I probably will visit them to say hello, train with them if they're happy to let me, and get some first hand experience. These days I barely have time to wash clothes before I'm packing again and heading back to the airport. :(

But how will that help me with Graham's nonsensical statement that LT hardly learnt anything from Yip Man?

I'm sure the PBVT guys train hard and have skill, and I'm sure that their approach will be different to mine - no, I know it will be. It will be great to experience it first-hand, but I already know there are differences. Whatever their skill level (or mine for that matter) we know that we'll both think our systems are different.

How will it help me understand what LT did or did not learn? All it can show me is what those guys learn from PB.

Graham's statement is, simply, him once again bashing LT and asserting something he cannot possibly know anything about. The way he talks, you'd think PB (Graham gets these silly ideas from PB?) attended those private lessons between Yip Man and Leung Ting.

Graham doesn't like the LT knife form. Fair enough.
But people like Robert Chu, someone outside of the WT system, has experienced it and says that its a good form and that he believes it came from Yip Man to LT.

Graham (from previous threads) has indicated that he doesn't like LT's pole form either. Fair enough.
But LT has video footage of Yip Man (I think recorded about 6 or 7 years before Yip Man's death) performing the form. I've not seen it myself, but I know a few people who have - people who are not connected - and they all say that LT's form is the same.

Graham claims that LT didn't learn much from Yip Man. How can he possibly know?
What we do know is that YM said himself that he was teaching LT. We know from Kwok Keung that these lessons took place, and indeed Kwok Keung took photos of YM teaching LT. We know that YM started by first correcting LT's wooden dummy form. We also know that YM wanted LT to teach at the VTAA - this was essentially YM's organisation - and that's a strange thing for YM to ask if he hadn't taught LT anything. We also know that YM attended various WT events that LT taught at and demo'd at - again, a strange thing to do, to lend your support to someone, if that someone is not teaching what you'd taught them.


Where we know for certain that Graham is correct, is in his opinion that LTWT is different to PBVT. No arguments from me there. They are surely different interpretations.

Edit: We know that PB was taught by WSL. We also know that David Peterson was taught by WSL. From comments on this forum, we can also see that people who train the WSL method don't view PB's system as being exactly the same as DP's. Who teaches a system closest to WSL's? Ask a PB student and they'll say PB. Ask a DP student and they'll say DP. Heck, Gary Lam's from WSL too and his interpretation looks different to PB's and DP's, and he studied with WSL in Hong Kong for 15 years. I wouldn't say any of them are doing things wrong, or that any of them 'hardly learned anything' from WSL.

Is it really so strange that PBVT and LTWT don't look the same? The only strange thing is Graham's mission to pour scorn at any method that doesn't match his own.

[LFJ]

LT's experience aside, everyone will think what they've learned is great until they've learned something that makes more sense and shows where the errors are with the previous ideas. Not saying that will necessarily be your experience, although it has been for numerous others, it'd be interesting to get your honest opinion after experiencing it.

[BPWT..]

LT's experience aside, everyone will think what they've learned is great until they've learned something that makes more sense and shows where the errors are with the previous ideas.

It is absolutely true that I like what I learn. But to be honest, there will always be someone out there who can use their method in a way to exploit yours. But yes, if I get the chance to visit in the near future I'll happily give my impressions. And I'm sure they will be impressive - people who train hard usually are.

But let's be honest - you're being a little bit cheeky. :D You're suggesting I go visit because you think these guys will be able to show me errors in what I do. And maybe they can/will :) And if I come here and honestly post about it and say, "Wow, they give me a schooling," then you'll say, "Yes, that's because the PBVT system makes more sense than the LTWT system."

:)

But what if someone much better than me, from the LTWT system visited them? What if he showed them how he could use his system to expose their errors? If that person where to come here and post that experience, would you then say, "Okay, that shows that the LTWT system makes more sense than the PBVT system"?


Not saying that will necessarily be your experience, although it has been for numerous others, it'd be interesting to get your honest opinion after experiencing it.

I think there are lots of people who have been impressed with the WSL method. And lots who have been impressed with the PBVT method specifically. I really don't have a problem with that.

Though I've been waiting for maybe 9 months or more for Graham to get back to me with the names of the people he claims learned the LTWT method as it is taught in Hong Kong, who then converted to the PBVT method. ;) He's been kinda slow getting those names (namely because the guys he's referring to are actually ex-EWTO guys and not people who learned the method as it is taught in HK).

[deejaye72]

anyone have the whole lueng ting knife form on video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxDU4ePKRgE here is randy williams knife form. looks pretty well rounded.

[LFJ]

@Beatrice,

Sure anyone with greater ability can potentially beat someone else regardless of style. But there are objective aspects of the systems that can be compared and if one is more sound than another it should make anyone a better fighter if they adopt this method and develop the skill than if they stick with the one that makes less sense. People come to realize how little sense it makes once they've experienced a more sound approach. Before the experience they are none the wiser. Then come the doubts regarding the origins of the method they previous followed, and the bitterness for lost time. That's the common story, anyhow.

[BPWT..]

@LFJ

Sure - I had a similar experience in the past. Actually, I had it twice. Once, discovering LTWT over something else, then a second time (more recently), discovering something else within the LTWT system, as it were. Of all the WCK lineages, LT's is one with the most confusion and misunderstandings; some small, some big. It's some rabbit hole, Alice.

As WT is just a hobby (for me), it's all just a learning experience as far as I'm concerned.

To add, I know someone who has experienced pretty much every line of WCK from YM, and a few WCK branches outside of the YM line too over the last 20+ years. He doesn't study the LT system anymore, but he still has very good things to say about it - and he also had exposure to someone who was a direct student of WSL. He doesn't, today, study the WSL method either. ;) He enjoyed getting the exposure to the WSL method, but it wasn't such that he thought it worth studying over the LT method.

Different people see things differently. For some people, PB is the be all and end all. If they're happy, then it's all cool. :cool:

[LFJ]

I had a similar experience in the past. Actually, I had it twice. Once, discovering LTWT over something else, then a second time (more recently), discovering something else within the LTWT system, as it were.

Same for me (and Graham) within WSLVT. The spectrum of practically useless to outstanding exists in probably most lineages. But that's because certain people who probably shouldn't be teaching manage to get names for themselves somehow. Riding coattails and all that... :rolleyes: