View Full Version : Pure Chan wah shun wck linage footage
kung fu fighter
05-11-2014, 10:15 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3tnLnhsD00
Very interesting! Thanks Navin! If this is what Yip Man learned from Chan Wah Shun and Ng Chun So, then some major changes were made in Yip Man's Wing Chun! I think Yip Man's WCK looks more like Yuen Kay Shan's WCK than it does the WCK in this video. Which again suggests what Robert Chu and others have already said.....Yuen Kay Shan was likely a huge influence on Yip Man.
JPinAZ
05-11-2014, 01:02 PM
Very interesting! Thanks Navin! If this is what Yip Man learned from Chan Wah Shun and Ng Chun So, then some major changes were made in Yip Man's Wing Chun! I think Yip Man's WCK looks more like Yuen Kay Shan's WCK than it does the WCK in this video. Which again suggests what Robert Chu and others have already said.....Yuen Kay Shan was likely a huge influence on Yip Man.
OOOOoorrrrr, we believe Yip Man's story and Leung Bik was the 'other influence'. :)
tc101
05-11-2014, 02:10 PM
OOOOoorrrrr, we believe Yip Man's story and Leung Bik was the 'other influence'. :)
Or we don't buy into that this was what CWS taught. I am sorry to break it to you all but just because it is on YouTube does not make it true.
Vajramusti
05-11-2014, 03:56 PM
Very interesting! Thanks Navin! If this is what Yip Man learned from Chan Wah Shun and Ng Chun So, then some major changes were made in Yip Man's Wing Chun! I think Yip Man's WCK looks more like Yuen Kay Shan's WCK than it does the WCK in this video. Which again suggests what Robert Chu and others have already said.....Yuen Kay Shan was likely a huge influence on Yip Man.
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I don't think so.
Or we don't buy into that this was what CWS taught. I am sorry to break it to you all but just because it is on YouTube does not make it true.
Yes. I think this is the more likely case.
zuti car
05-11-2014, 07:56 PM
This is what Tam Won Biu teaching today , he is a student of Chan Gar Lim, son of Chan Yiu Min , who is Chan Wah Shun's son .
Neither this CWS lineage nor YKS have jam-sau in their SNT form.
Yip Man originally only taught jam-sau, which came from Leung Bik.
zuti car
05-11-2014, 11:38 PM
Neither this CWS lineage nor YKS have jam-sau in their SNT form.
Yip Man originally only taught jam-sau, which came from Leung Bik.
According to Yip Man and his followers . CWS and YKS lineage may have different stories
This is what Tam Won Biu teaching today , he is a student of Chan Gar Lim, son of Chan Yiu Min , who is Chan Wah Shun's son .
Ah! Then Navin may have been a little overly enthusiastic to call this "pure" CWS WCK lineage footage. I have always suspected that Chan Yiu Min added in a lot things to his Wing Chun.
tc101
05-12-2014, 03:30 AM
Ah! Then Navin may have been a little overly enthusiastic to call this "pure" CWS WCK lineage footage. I have always suspected that Chan Yiu Min added in a lot things to his Wing Chun.
I heard also that at least at some time CYM was calling his art weng chun. I also heard he added some local southern fist into his art.
tc101
05-12-2014, 03:31 AM
Neither this CWS lineage nor YKS have jam-sau in their SNT form.
Yip Man originally only taught jam-sau, which came from Leung Bik.
You are kidding right?
zuti car
05-12-2014, 03:52 AM
Ah! Then Navin may have been a little overly enthusiastic to call this "pure" CWS WCK lineage footage. I have always suspected that Chan Yiu Min added in a lot things to his Wing Chun.
I don't know about " a lot" but Hung Gar influence is obvious .
You are kidding right?
About? ....
chusauli
05-12-2014, 10:46 AM
YKS Jum Sao in SNT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dKAcCvL8ZE
There's no Gaun Sao.
chusauli
05-12-2014, 12:11 PM
I think Tam Wing Biu's lineage has added a lot of Southern Fist and may not be truly representative of what Chan Wah Shun taught.
As for Yuen Kay Shan, it is known that he and Yip were longtime friends. A look at their sets, and you can see the resemblance. Yip Man's early version in HK looks very much like YKS' system.
As for Leung Bik, I personally doubt the whole story of Yip Man learning from him. That does not mean that others cannot have a different opinion.
No one has all the facts.
YKS Jum Sao in SNT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1dKAcCvL8ZE
There's no Gaun Sao.
What? :confused:
What is that @1:32? I don't know what you call it if it isn't gaang-sau, but it's certainly not jam-sau.
LoneTiger108
05-13-2014, 08:21 AM
No one has all the facts.
I would tend to agree with that. Although I would also add that whatever Chan Wah Shun was teaching, Ip Man was not authorised in the 'public' sense to carry on the school that Chan Wah Shun set up. Ng Jung So was the inheritor and he worked extensively with Chan Wah Shuns son Chan Yiu Min according to what I have read.
I also thought it was 'common knowledge' that Ip Man stripped many of the older traditions away, adjusting what he had been taught and inventing a 'New Method' that he alone taught in Hong Kong. So on reflection, maybe NOTHING was added to Chan Wah Shuns original curriculum by his sons or Ng Jung So?!! Maybe it was Ip Man that removed EVERYTHING! And so in looking for an original template of Wing Chun we will always find similarities to other Southern and Shaolin based Systems? Or are we to take the Taost Emei approach to find our answers? Or Yong Chun White Crane??
Each to their own, but at least understand that it's all simply speculation for now...
I also thought it was 'common knowledge' that Ip Man stripped many of the older traditions away, adjusting what he had been taught and inventing a 'New Method' that he alone taught in Hong Kong. So on reflection, maybe NOTHING was added to Chan Wah Shuns original curriculum by his sons or Ng Jung So?!! Maybe it was Ip Man that removed EVERYTHING! ...
If that was true, then you would have to admit that Yuen Kay Shan pretty much stripped away almost exactly the same elements and material! That still suggests a pretty close relationship and collaboration between Yip Man and Yuen Kay Shan, don't you think?
chusauli
05-13-2014, 10:14 AM
If that was true, then you would have to admit that Yuen Kay Shan pretty much stripped away almost exactly the same elements and material! That still suggests a pretty close relationship and collaboration between Yip Man and Yuen Kay Shan, don't you think?
Since the internet is available, people can see the closeness of the 2 systems. YKS kept the sets as he learned them from Fok Bo Chuen.
GlennR
05-13-2014, 03:38 PM
What? :confused:
What is that @1:32? I don't know what you call it if it isn't gaang-sau, but it's certainly not jam-sau.
Looked like gan-sau to me
GlennR
05-13-2014, 03:39 PM
I would tend to agree with that. Although I would also add that whatever Chan Wah Shun was teaching, Ip Man was not authorised in the 'public' sense to carry on the school that Chan Wah Shun set up. Ng Jung So was the inheritor and he worked extensively with Chan Wah Shuns son Chan Yiu Min according to what I have read.
I also thought it was 'common knowledge' that Ip Man stripped many of the older traditions away, adjusting what he had been taught and inventing a 'New Method' that he alone taught in Hong Kong. So on reflection, maybe NOTHING was added to Chan Wah Shuns original curriculum by his sons or Ng Jung So?!! Maybe it was Ip Man that removed EVERYTHING! And so in looking for an original template of Wing Chun we will always find similarities to other Southern and Shaolin based Systems? Or are we to take the Taost Emei approach to find our answers? Or Yong Chun White Crane??
Each to their own, but at least understand that it's all simply speculation for now...
Exactly Soencer, enjoy the stories by all maens but it is, as you say, all speculation
tc101
05-14-2014, 05:00 AM
About? ....
About YKS not having jum sau in their forms. Dr. Chu already showed it does. Also one of the Cheung Bo 12 San Sik in YKS wing chun system is the single sinking bridge or jum sau.
These stories like Leung Bik and so forth cannot be trusted.
About YKS not having jum sau in their forms. Dr. Chu already showed it does.
In SNT? All he did was post another clip of SNT and said it had jam-sau and no gaang-sau, but I saw exactly the opposite. Unless you're calling something else jam-sau, you'll have to point the exact action out to me in the clip.
chusauli
05-14-2014, 09:48 AM
In SNT? All he did was post another clip of SNT and said it had jam-sau and no gaang-sau, but I saw exactly the opposite. Unless you're calling something else jam-sau, you'll have to point the exact action out to me in the clip.
Perhaps that's what you saw.
In learning the YKS SLT set, I learned it with no Gaang Sau (Gaun Sao), but Jum Sao.
In Rene Ritchie's book on Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun, his Sifu demonstrates the same set with a Jum Sao, not Gaun Sao.
From what I know and have learned, there is no Gaun Sao.
Dr. Cheung Yung in HK (who learned from Sum Nung, YKS' disciple), also does not do the Gaun Sao:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDpx5juWHX0
Hope this helps.
Perhaps that's what you saw.
Uh, yeah...
Dr. Cheung Yung in HK (who learned from Sum Nung, YKS' disciple), also does not do the Gaun Sao:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDpx5juWHX0
Hope this helps.
Well, no. It doesn't help one bit. You post a clip which shows the exact opposite of what you're saying it shows.
What exactly are you referring to as "jum sao" in these clips? What time mark are we looking at? It very clearly shows "gaun sao", unless you've flipped the terminology.
tc101
05-15-2014, 03:22 AM
Uh, yeah...
Well, no. It doesn't help one bit. You post a clip which shows the exact opposite of what you're saying it shows.
What exactly are you referring to as "jum sao" in these clips? What time mark are we looking at? It very clearly shows "gaun sao", unless you've flipped the terminology.
The jum sau precedes the guan sau.
The jum sau precedes the guan sau.
Oh, you mean the one "he doesn't do"?
He's going so fast he almost looks sloppy. But to me, it looks like Tan/Jum/Tan/Got Gan. He does the Jum Sao quite low so it almost looks like a Gan Sao. The "Got Gan" or "cutting Gan" is the hooking action back towards the waist. Maybe they don't consider that to be a true Gan Sao in YKSWCK?
He's going so fast he almost looks sloppy. But to me, it looks like Tan/Jum/Tan/Got Gan. He does the Jum Sao quite low so it almost looks like a Gan Sao.
Seriously? That's what they're calling "jum sao"? His arm goes down almost straight. Anyhow...
Everyone is familiar with the WSL version, right? It has two clear sections of taan/jam/taan and taan/gaang/taan.
The jam-sau is just a subtle action contracting the elbow. This doesn't appear in either the CWS or YKS lineages' SNT form. What they do appears to be the equivalent of the gaang-sau section, whatever they call it.
This jam-sau is what was referred to when Yip Man said he got it from Leung Bik. It clearly didn't come from CWS or YKS.
zuti car
05-15-2014, 04:23 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfCsuKc0BHs
tc101
05-15-2014, 04:32 AM
Seriously? That's what they're calling "jum sao"? His arm goes down almost straight. Anyhow...
Everyone is familiar with the WSL version, right? It has two clear sections of taan/jam/taan and taan/gaang/taan.
The jam-sau is just a subtle action contracting the elbow. This doesn't appear in either the CWS or YKS lineages' SNT form. What they do appears to be the equivalent of the gaang-sau section, whatever they call it.
This jam-sau is what was referred to when Yip Man said he got it from Leung Bik. It clearly didn't come from CWS or YKS.
Yes the WSL form makes it very distinct and so does the LT form. In YKS the second half of the SLT form is supposed to be performed as quickly as you can move so speed is emphasized and thus movements blend together and appear less sharp but the action is there. That's how I learned it with a very distinct jum sau flowing into a guan sau. Jum or chum means sinking it is the same character in Chinese. As I told you before the action is also part of our Cheung Bo 12 San Sik and is called the single sinking bridge.
This jam-sau is what was referred to when Yip Man said he got it from Leung Bik. It clearly didn't come from CWS or YKS.
The story I remember reading was that Yip Man taught the Tan/Jum/Tan version in SNT. Then WSL was in a "Bei Mo" and took a low punch when his Jum Sao didn't quite stop it well enough. So he started doing the Tan/Gan/Tan version in his own SNT and Yip Man gave his approval. Prior to that the Gan didn't really show up utnil the dummy form. Tan/Jum/Tan is clearly in YSKWCK, even if you don't agree with how they do their Jum Sao. So I wouldn't put much into this Leung Bik story.
In YKS the second half of the SLT form is supposed to be performed as quickly as you can move so speed is emphasized and thus movements blend together and appear less sharp but the action is there. That's how I learned it with a very distinct jum sau flowing into a guan sau.
Okay, but Robert just finished saying they don't do a gaang-sau, and whatever is being called jam-sau is not what I recognize by that term.
The story I remember reading was that Yip Man taught the Tan/Jum/Tan version in SNT. Then WSL was in a "Bei Mo" and took a low punch when his Jum Sao didn't quite stop it well enough. So he started doing the Tan/Gan/Tan version in his own SNT and Yip Man gave his approval.
Yeah, but of course WSL kept the jam-sau section too, while most others following the event dropped the "old" technique for the "new" one and only have the gaang-sau section.
Tan/Jum/Tan is clearly in YSKWCK, even if you don't agree with how they do their Jum Sao. So I wouldn't put much into this Leung Bik story.
It's not so clear from my perspective. Whatever they call it and however they do it, it is certainly not the same action done in WSLVT.
tc101
05-15-2014, 05:15 AM
Okay, but Robert just finished saying they don't do a gaang-sau, and whatever is being called jam-sau is not what I recognize by that term.
As I do YKS wing chun I think I know what it is I'm doing. YKS as I learned it has both a guan sau and chum or jum sau action. In the SLT the actions are there. In the San Sik it is sometimes taught with a guan sau and sometimes a single sinking bridge.
chusauli
05-15-2014, 09:14 AM
I'll just say I learned the YKS SLT set with a Jum Sao, not a Gaun Sao. As for the 1st video I posted, admittedly, the guy is a little sloppy, perhaps causing confusion?
In Cheung Yung's video, he is doing it from what a Yip Man lineage person's perspective would be a Jum Sao...
otherwise, I need my reading glasses.
And guys, really? Its not worth arguing over. :confused:
And guys, really? Its not worth arguing over. :confused:
Well sure, my point was more to do with Leung Bik's influence on Yip Man than the action itself, but regarding the action, it plays an important role in WSLVT and seems under-appreciated by many others, particularly in the execution of it being a subtle contraction of the elbow in the way we do it. I don't see this in other lineages. Many do it by dropping the wrist which changes everything.
chusauli
05-15-2014, 10:08 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfCsuKc0BHs
Great! That's how I learned it.
And tc101, I agree in the San Sao.
tc101
05-15-2014, 10:44 AM
Well sure, my point was more to do with Leung Bik's influence on Yip Man than the action itself, but regarding the action, it plays an important role in WSLVT and seems under-appreciated by many others, particularly in the execution of it being a subtle contraction of the elbow in the way we do it. I don't see this in other lineages. Many do it by dropping the wrist which changes everything.
That's all model level stuff and has nothing to do with application.
That's all model level stuff and has nothing to do with application.
No. Application is exactly what I'm talking about.
tc101
05-16-2014, 03:18 AM
No. Application is exactly what I'm talking about.
Can you point me to a video clip of some one sparring or fighting non wing chun guys using this remarkable subtle elbow contraction jum sau that comes from Leung Bik? No? Then it isn't application. Application is actually sparring or fighting that's when you are really applying wing chun.
Can you point me to a video clip of some one sparring or fighting non wing chun guys using this remarkable subtle elbow contraction jum sau that comes from Leung Bik? No? Then it isn't application.
If you don't see a clip of it, it's not application? And who the hell are you?
Application is actually sparring or fighting that's when you are really applying wing chun.
No sh!t, fool. For a guy who harps on this in every posts, no matter the topic or the comment it's in response to, you have a remarkably empty Youtube account.
tc101
05-16-2014, 04:30 AM
If you don't see a clip of it, it's not application? And who the hell are you?
No sh!t, fool. For a guy who harps on this in every posts, no matter the topic or the comment it's in response to, you have a remarkably empty Youtube account.
I don't claim to be any one just a guy that does't swallow things he's told but only believes what he sees. Application is really using your wing chun it's not how you think it will work or what you think you will do that is only the model but what you are really doing. My asking for a clip is my way of saying you are not seeing it really used in sparring or fighting like that it is just how you think things should work. That's why it is model level wing chun. There's nothing wrong with that.
If you want clips of wing chun fighters you can look at the Orr guys. Do you see the jum sau with your subtle elbow movement used? No and there is a reason.
The thing about really sparring or fighting is much of the time you cannot do the things you want but need to deal with what your opponent is doing and giving you. Most opponents will not give you the kinds of shots that your subtle elbow action jum sau can deal with. The model is not application it's not how things really work. Here's the other thing I can't tell you how to apply your wing chun. No one can. You have to work that out for yourself through sparring. It's the same in boxing. But I can tell you what sorts of things will not work and you can get a good idea for yourself by looking at fights. If you don't see it there is usually a very good reason.
Yes, I do see the Orr guys using the elbow in much the same way as it is done in my lineage. You have no idea what I'm even talking about. All you can do is repeat your "mantra". It's your standard response to any post regardless of the topic.
tc101
05-16-2014, 05:11 AM
Yes, I do see the Orr guys using the elbow in much the same way as it is done in my lineage. You have no idea what I'm even talking about. All you can do is repeat your "mantra". It's your standard response to any post regardless of the topic.
Really? Can you point me to a specific clip and time so that I can better see what you are talking about?
Really? Can you point me to a specific clip and time so that I can better see what you are talking about?
He breaks it down in his DVD series. It's a subtlety that's not given as much attention in other lineages, or simply doesn't exist because they're all hand and wristy. Once you know what to look for you can see it being used by all his fighters.
I think an "excluding" or "cutting" punch from the outside essentially is a Jum Sao continuing on to hit with the fist. Or at least it uses the subtle sinking with the elbow that I think LFJ is talking about. Alan shows this alot in his videos.
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