More White Crane

[KPM]

Here is another video of White Crane that I came across on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhBEc6ZF7jY

The sticky hands rolling is similar to what we do in PSWCK. It is the more generic "huen sao" roll that I mentioned in a previous thread as being used in many southern CMAs. Also note the form demonstrated near the end of the clip. Lots of very "snake-like" motions. You will see many Biu Gee's as well as the "waving hands" from the YMWCK Biu Gee form or the YKSWCK SNT form that is often referred to as "snake hands". I personally didn't realize that White Crane had these "snakey" motions. It would be easy to conclude that WCK is descended directly from White Crane with no hybridization with anything else needed. Or, if White Crane was the base, any snake system added would fit in quite well since White Crane already had a "snakey" aspect. But this is all pure conjecture and not meant to incite another round of comments from "you know who." I just thought others might find this video interesting. So please, no more lectures on Emei.

Although.....if Jim Roselando is around and has some feedback from the Emei seminar in Boston this past weekend (and hopefully some video) I'd love to see it!

[tc101]

Here is another video of White Crane that I came across on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhBEc6ZF7jY

The sticky hands rolling is similar to what we do in PSWCK. It is the more generic "huen sao" roll that I mentioned in a previous thread as being used in many southern CMAs. Also note the form demonstrated near the end of the clip. Lots of very "snake-like" motions. You will see many Biu Gee's as well as the "waving hands" from the YMWCK Biu Gee form or the YKSWCK SNT form that is often referred to as "snake hands". I personally didn't realize that White Crane had these "snakey" motions. It would be easy to conclude that WCK is descended directly from White Crane with no hybridization with anything else needed. Or, if White Crane was the base, any snake system added would fit in quite well since White Crane already had a "snakey" aspect. But this is all pure conjecture and not meant to incite another round of comments from "you know who." I just thought others might find this video interesting. So please, no more lectures on Emei.

Although.....if Jim Roselando is around and has some feedback from the Emei seminar in Boston this past weekend (and hopefully some video) I'd love to see it!

Most southern fist has very similar movements so it is not surprising to see similarities when you compare any two.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A few believe that all southern hands have a common system.
I agree.

[KPM]

While "southern" systems have common elements that enables them to be classified as "southern", the similarities I keep seeing between White Crane and Wing Chun seem stronger than between Wing Chun and Hung Ga or even Wing Chun and Southern Mantis or Wing Chun and Pak Mei, etc.

[kung fu fighter]

Here is another video of White Crane that I came across on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhBEc6ZF7jY

The sticky hands rolling is similar to what we do in PSWCK. It is the more generic "huen sao" roll that I mentioned in a previous thread as being used in many southern CMAs. Also note the form demonstrated near the end of the clip. Lots of very "snake-like" motions. You will see many Biu Gee's as well as the "waving hands" from the YMWCK Biu Gee form or the YKSWCK SNT form that is often referred to as "snake hands". I personally didn't realize that White Crane had these "snakey" motions. It would be easy to conclude that WCK is descended directly from White Crane with no hybridization with anything else needed. Or, if White Crane was the base, any snake system added would fit in quite well since White Crane already had a "snakey" aspect. But this is all pure conjecture and not meant to incite another round of comments from "you know who." I just thought others might find this video interesting. So please, no more lectures on Emei.

Although.....if Jim Roselando is around and has some feedback from the Emei seminar in Boston this past weekend (and hopefully some video) I'd love to see it!

Here are some Applications of the yong chun white crane system. I liked the teacup training of master Su Yinghan, it reminded me of the move drunken master lol. Their training Looks very traditional, they also have a two man sticky supt jee sao training that I liked http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-OTHCGNs7o

[JPinAZ]

While "southern" systems have common elements that enables them to be classified as "southern", the similarities I keep seeing between White Crane and Wing Chun seem stronger than between Wing Chun and Hung Ga or even Wing Chun and Southern Mantis or Wing Chun and Pak Mei, etc.

I've noticed that people 'looking' for similarities between different arts will tend to see all sorts of things. While sure, there are similar hand shapes (as in a lot of southern arts) the differences I see in mechanics, root, power generation and function in application between white crane & wing chun far outweigh any similarities one may 'see' in surface level things like a few techniques.

In the end, what does it matter? I don't mean to sound snarky with this question by any means, but Wing Chun is Wing Chun, White Crane is White Crane. One has very VERY little to do with the other at this point, if they even ever did much at all. I guess I just don't understand why there is this constant quest to link 2 arts that, while sharing a few similar looking hand shapes, are so different in the real meat of things (application, mechanics, etc and most importantly - concept & principle).

[KPM]

I've noticed that people 'looking' for similarities between different arts will tend to see all sorts of things.

And I've noticed that people that really down-play the existence of similarities between different arts tend to miss all kinds of things that seem pretty obvious to others.


In the end, what does it matter?

It only matters to people interested in history.

[Grumblegeezer]

I've noticed that people 'looking' for similarities between different arts will tend to see all sorts of things.

And I've noticed that people that really down-play the existence of similarities between different arts tend to miss all kinds of things that seem pretty obvious to others.


In the end, what does it matter?

It only matters to people interested in history.

I don't know if they miss those things. I think it's more about what you are looking for. Some folks focus on the leaves of the tree, others take in the whole forest. Both contribute to the total body of knowledge.

Personally, I'm the type that looks broadly at the forest. Accordingly, I miss a lot of important details. But on the other hand, I really enjoy finding those big connections. It's all good....

[JPinAZ]

I've noticed that people 'looking' for similarities between different arts will tend to see all sorts of things.

And I've noticed that people that really down-play the existence of similarities between different arts tend to miss all kinds of things that seem pretty obvious to others.

In the end, what does it matter?

It only matters to people interested in history.

I'm not downplaying or missing anything. If one looks hard enough, I bet they can find technique & shape similarities to those found in wing chun in a lot of arts, some not even from southern China. But that doesn't mean they have any connection to wing chun what-so-ever. My understanding of Wing Chun is that's it isn't defined by the techniques or shapes we see - it's defined by it's principle-based concepts that drive what we do. Since White Crane clearly doesn't operate under these same ideas, seeing some similar techniques doesn't really mean a whole lot, historically or otherwise.

But I guess those looking for what they want to see applies to forum posts as well... since you only cherry-picked a few 'leaves' in my post to reply too, you obviously missed the whole 'tree' (point), let alone the forest. Ahh well. :rolleyes:

[KPM]

I'm not downplaying or missing anything. If one looks hard enough, I bet they can find technique & shape similarities to those found in wing chun in a lot of arts, some not even from southern China. But that doesn't mean they have any connection to wing chun what-so-ever. My understanding of Wing Chun is that's it isn't defined by the techniques or shapes we see - it's defined by it's principle-based concepts that drive what we do. Since White Crane clearly doesn't operate under these same ideas, seeing some similar techniques doesn't really mean a whole lot, historically or otherwise.

But I guess those looking for what they want to see applies to forum posts as well... since you only cherry-picked a few 'leaves' in my post to reply too, you obviously missed the whole 'tree' (point), let alone the forest. Ahh well. :rolleyes:

Yeah, whatever JP. Did you even bother to watch the video? And keep in mind that the Wing Chun reference I am using is the older "Red Boat" versions from mainland China. Your mileage may vary since you don't do anything like that.

[Minghequan]

Interesting ... a post about White Crane ... by Keith no less ... and I do White Crane ...... hmmm

The people in this vid are those of Sifu Lee Kong.

Snake-like? ... sorry don't see it myself.

Connection to Wing Chun? Maybe in a few cursory movements and appearance.

But we are not looking at the external rather in internal.


I'm not downplaying or missing anything. If one looks hard enough, I bet they can find technique & shape similarities to those found in wing chun in a lot of arts, some not even from southern China. But that doesn't mean they have any connection to wing chun what-so-ever. My understanding of Wing Chun is that's it isn't defined by the techniques or shapes we see - it's defined by it's principle-based concepts that drive what we do. Since White Crane clearly doesn't operate under these same ideas, seeing some similar techniques doesn't really mean a whole lot, historically or otherwise.

But I guess those looking for what they want to see applies to forum posts as well... since you only cherry-picked a few 'leaves' in my post to reply too, you obviously missed the whole 'tree' (point), let alone the forest. Ahh well.

Agreed, sadly many will "tack on" a connection to suit their own purposes here ... at least that's what I am guessing from this post. Maybe an attempt to have a sly dig and also to back-up some of that which Hendrik has written ... who knows the motivations and means of others.

Pretty much betting my post will also be cherry-picked to pieces too!!!

Wing Chun is Wing Chun, White Crane is White Crane. If only people would leave it at that then these arts would grow far more than they appear to have on this forum. Stop looking for a "magic bullet" or "Holy Grail' ... as Master Huang Xingxian use to say "Learn less, practice more".

Training Baihequan develops the ability to bring a powerful surge of energy up from the ground, through the trunk and out of the extremities. This can speed
up development of jin (elastic-force) in students at an early stage of their practice. The reason is that training to produce the surge of energy up through the body does teach people to connect effectively to the ground, but that connection comes from a co-ordinated contraction of a chain of extensor muscles.
This hydraulic-like expansion, often accompanied by a spiral movement, can be used to hit or throw people efficiently and strongly and be used to absorb and return opponents energy.

How many people know that a stretching muscle is up to 10 times stronger than a contracting muscle? How many utilise or even understand the information that the force produced by a contracting muscle decreases with the increasing speed of the contraction while the force produced by a stretching muscle increases as the speed of stretching increases? Who can claim to train the White Crane in such a way that the jin passes rhythmically through the body in waves of stretching muscles and who, under the stress of an aggressive force, can be so internally relaxed that every muscle in their body elongates and actively stretches under the pressure, rather than contracts and shortens (or holds - unchanged) in a tense resistance? But these interesting questions barely touch on the matter. he basis of the White Crane is just this: jin is motivated by the Yi, energised by the Qi, issued from the Root and transmitted through the body in a wave of stretching muscles.

White Crane Gongfu works quietly on producing waves of movement through the body as a refinement of and a natural progression from the more commonly taught ”whole-body-moves * as-one” co-ordination. "All fluids move in waves”，and, "Forces pass through fluids by the production of waves". the impulse to move beginning at the feet and the effects of inertia and momentum as this travels through the body. Thus, a light initial elastic-wave like movement of the body being followed by a potentially elastic-wave as the body settles on to ground and the outer momentum is absorbed. The forces are stronger within this second the distance and time of absorption is much smaller than corresponding factors during the initial impulse - so the forces proportionately greater. This second wave can also absorb the opponents, increasing its power even further.

It is usual for students to wish to control the process of their learning. If this is allowed then most will just choose those elements of the teaching which fit with their superficial idea of White Crane and themselves, protecting the superficial structure of their ego and inhibiting their deep inner contact. This is incorrect teaching and incorrect learning, the responsibility for it resting with the teacher, not the naive students. During that initial time the only hope for the students to escape themselves lies with following exactly what the system prescribes, rather than their own 'bright ideas'.

Master Huang Xingxian taught that:


There are no hidden secrets in White Crane - just things too small to be readily seen by those not looking"

[KPM]

Interesting ... a post about White Crane ... by Keith no less ... and I do White Crane ...... hmmm

But you don't do Wing Chun......hmmmmm.



Snake-like? ... sorry don't see it myself.

Refer to above comment.



Connection to Wing Chun? Maybe in a few cursory movements and appearance.


Again. It only matters if you are interesting in history. If you aren't interested in history then feel free to ignore what I said.



Agreed, sadly many will "tack on" a connection to suit their own purposes here ... at least that's what I am guessing from this post. Maybe an attempt to have a sly dig and also to back-up some of that which Hendrik has written ... who knows the motivations and means of others.

Nope. No agenda. Again, I posted the video because I thougt others might find it interesting. If you or JP don't find it interesting, then you can choose to ignore it. And have you even been reading what "you know who" has been writing? Its been all about an Emei connection, not White Crane.



Pretty much betting my post will also be cherry-picked to pieces too!!!


Not Cherry picking. I just respond to what needs responding to, just like in any normal conversation. I'm not required to respond to every single thing you post.


Wing Chun is Wing Chun, White Crane is White Crane. If only people would leave it at that then these arts would grow far more than they appear to have on this forum.

Again, if you aren't interested in history and possible historical connections then please feel free to ignore any posts on the topic.




Training Baihequan develops the ability to bring a powerful surge of energy up from the ground, through the trunk and out of the extremities. This can speed
up development of jin (elastic-force) in students at an early stage of their practice. The reason is that training to produce the surge of energy up through the body does teach people to connect effectively to the ground, but that connection comes from a co-ordinated contraction of a chain of extensor muscles.
This hydraulic-like expansion, often accompanied by a spiral movement, can be used to hit or throw people efficiently and strongly and be used to absorb and return opponents energy.

Good description! But it has nothing to do with what I've written or why I started this thread, so would I be "cherry picking" if I had ignored this portion of your post?

[PalmStriker]

:) Have to agree with KPM about the last set in the video. No need to consider "snake fist" when the SLT Crane version is clearly being demonstrated. The Hung Kuen version looks more like Yip Man SLT. Snake must have been added into some lineages as time allowed, more so in Pan Nam or in a different expression, Yui Choi. Snakes in the Grass seem to be part of that evolution also.

[Hendrik]

:)

Snake must have been added into some lineages as time allowed, more so in Pan Nam or in a different expression, Yui Choi. Snakes in the Grass seem to be part of that evolution also.



Snake of emei has to be there to set up the platform , otherwise, there is not SNT and Biu Jee set. Biu Jee set is practically in effective without snake engine from emei.

[Vajramusti]

Snake of emei has to be there to set up the platform , otherwise, there is not SNT and Biu Jee set. Biu Jee set is practically in effective without snake engine from emei.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps for what you du.

[JPinAZ]

Yeah, whatever JP. Did you even bother to watch the video?

That is a stupid question. Of course I watched it, how could I comment on something I've never seen?
It's clear why you ask me this: since I can't see the 'glaring' connections you see, I must not have watched!:rolleyes:

I can see it's hard for you to grasp, but I can look beyond some techniques/shapes and see what's really going on in the video (mechanics, rooting & stance, power generation, whether or not WC concept/principle is there, etc). And from what I see, little shown has much to do with any Wing Chun I've learned. There isn't much you can say to change that, get over it.


And keep in mind that the Wing Chun reference I am using is the older "Red Boat" versions from mainland China. Your mileage may vary since you don't do anything like that.

What do you mean by "older "Red Boat" versions from mainland China"? By older are you meaning 'more original'?
So, unless someone's wing chun looks like this white crane video, they aren't doing the 'older' "Red Boat" version of wing chun? Maybe that is why you 'see' the things you want to see - to connect yourself to something 'older' or 'more original'? ;)
Sounds similar to what Hendrik constantly tries to do here...

FWIW, there is no 'older' version of wing chun. All wing chun comes from the same source. While I agree, some have clearly had things added/subtracted thru the years which makes them 'less wing chun' in present day IMO (mostly starting around the time of the split of 1850's), this video you linked to has little to do with either lineage I have studied - one coming from the Red Boats and one from Boxer Societies.

[KPM]

That is a stupid question. Of course I watched it, how could I comment on something I've never seen?
It's clear why you ask me this: since I can't see the 'glaring' connections you see, I must not have watched!:rolleyes:

Its not a stupid question. You're initial comment was rather general. It didn't reference this particular video.

And from what I see, little shown has much to do with any Wing Chun I've learned. There isn't much you can say to change that, get over it.

I have nothing to "get over." I freely admit that it doesn't look a lot like what little HFY I've seen. That's why I noted "Red Boat" Wing Chun. Because I think it does look a bit like Pin Sun WCK and Yuen Kay Shan WCK. More than just due to chance. There isn't much you can say to change that either.



What do you mean by "older "Red Boat" versions from mainland China"? By older are you meaning 'more original'?


No, I just mean older than some of the modern interpretations. Older than the Yip man version for instance.


So, unless someone's wing chun looks like this white crane video, they aren't doing the 'older' "Red Boat" version of wing chun? Maybe that is why you 'see' the things you want to see - to connect yourself to something 'older' or 'more original'? ;)
Sounds similar to what Hendrik constantly tries to do here...

Putting words in my mouth now? Are you just looking for some nefarious plot or agenda? What's up with you guys always trying to stir the pot??? Take a look to your right and flick that huge chip off of your shoulder.

[JPinAZ]

Keith, I sometimes think you either only 'see' what you want to or you just like to argue, because ALL of my comments were directly in relation to the video. I made this very clear. And, I didn't put words in your mouth - sure I made a guess to your intentions based on your cherry picking and snarky comments, but I asked you questions to allow you to clarify so I wasn't just assmuing.

Speaking of such, I have no idea who this "you guys" are - I speak for myself and base my opinions on my own experiences as I have been very clear in every post on this thread. Bottom line, it's clear you have issue with me and some 'group' you think I belong too. You really need to let that go already, because it appears to cloud your ability to read plain english and understand my simple and direct posts when others seem to have no issue in do so.

[Hendrik]

Sounds similar to what Hendrik constantly tries to do here...





I have present my case with specific details

1848 red boat Wck has traceable Fujian white crane , Emei 12 z , and anti Qing signatures.

Goes as far as having the gatekeeper of a Emei 12z verify the elements and put his signature on it.




Why don't you do the same?

Didn't all claim has to be back up by details and evidence?

If your Wck is from shaolin, get the chief monk of shaolin in china to verify the exact DNA of the art, sign for you , and shows us here.

[kung fu fighter]

I think it does look a bit like Pin Sun WCK and Yuen Kay Shan WCK.

I agree with Keith on this one.

[JPinAZ]

Snake-like? ... sorry don't see it myself.

I didn't either. Although, I don't have direct experience in crane or snake systems, I have spent time thru the years reading, watching videos and listening to what their practitioners have to see. Which is why I'm glad you are here to give you view on some of these topics!


Connection to Wing Chun? Maybe in a few cursory movements and appearance.

Glad I'm not the only one that sees this. But then, I don't have a dog in the fight. I just look at everything presented with an open mind, relate it back to my own experience and then cross-reference it to videos presented and what others like you have to share.


Agreed, sadly many will "tack on" a connection to suit their own purposes here ... at least that's what I am guessing from this post. Maybe an attempt to have a sly dig and also to back-up some of that which Hendrik has written ... who knows the motivations and means of others.

Pretty much betting my post will also be cherry-picked to pieces too!!!

Wing Chun is Wing Chun, White Crane is White Crane. If only people would leave it at that then these arts would grow far more than they appear to have on this forum. Stop looking for a "magic bullet" or "Holy Grail' ... as Master Huang Xingxian use to say "Learn less, practice more".

While it's not really fair to make this assumption about Keith's initial intentions, this was my impression as well given the nature of a multitude of threads on this forum lately. And his 'behavior' in his following replies by not reading what people write, cherry picking replies, snarky comments, etc didn't help change my initial thinking.
I try to be open to others views & experiences, even if I don't necessarily agree with them. IMO, some here could learn to try to be more that way themselves.

[KPM]

Keith, I sometimes think you either only 'see' what you want to or you just like to argue,

And I could say the EXACT same thing about you! As far as "snarky comments", lets examine your very first post on this particular thread, shall we?

I've noticed that people 'looking' for similarities between different arts will tend to see all sorts of things.

That seems kind of "snarky" to me, given that all I had done was post a video and note that I saw some things that looked similar to Wing Chun in my opinion.

I had even qualified my statements with:

But this is all pure conjecture and not meant to incite another round of comments from "you know who." I just thought others might find this video interesting.

So to use your own snarky words....get over it. If you don't find the video interesting, fine, move on.


- sure I made a guess to your intentions based on your cherry picking and snarky comments,

So you have joined the ranks of Wing Chun mind-readers? The comments I made about "cherry picking" to Ron apply equally to you. I responded to what I felt needed responding to, just like any normal conversation. I'm not required to respond to everything you post.



Speaking of such, I have no idea who this "you guys" are - I speak for myself and base my opinions on my own experiences

Ok. I apologize for that one. I was grouping you with the "naysayers" just like Ron has been grouping me with the "Hendrik supporters." That's not fair to either one of us.

[JPinAZ]

1848 red boat Wck has traceable Fujian white crane , Emei 12 z , and anti Qing signatures.

Like has been said here before, the above statement is only true for your incomplete mish mash version of wing chun. Even the members of your own lineage don't recognize you as anything more than a mouse nibbling on cheese.


Why don't you do the same?
Didn't all claim has to be back up by details and evidence?

That is a weak attempt to change the subject and make it about something it isn't. Has nothing to do with me - I have never made ANY claims here.

As for evidence or me to backing something up to you, I have been more than willing to do so. I offered to meet with you on several occasions to give you the same fair chance. Instead, you chose to cry like a baby threatening to whine to FBI, law enforcement, etc. Unless you are really interested, I have nothing more to say to cry babies that run and tell the principle every time they stub their toe on the playground.

[Hendrik]

Like has been said here before, the above statement is only true for your incomplete mish mash version of wing chun.
.


I present the verifiable multiple historic source signatures and the signature of the Emei 12 zhuang gate keeper on paper.

That is what count.


Until you can come up with the same amount and level of solid evidence. What you have is just a story.

[JPinAZ]

I present the verifiable multiple historic source signatures and the signature of the Emei 12 zhuang gate keeper on paper.

That is what count.

LOL, you have a piece of paper? Wow.....
Even people from your own lineage calls you names, isn't that enough proof you don't know what you're talking about 'mouse' boy? I have nothing more to say to you and you are a waste of time. Go cry to FBI and tell them I am not interested in your BS baby nonsense.

[GlennR]

I present the verifiable multiple historic source signatures and the signature of the Emei 12 zhuang gate keeper on paper.

That is what count.


Until you can come up with the same amount and level of solid evidence. What you have is just a story.

Bwahahahahaha.............. a piece of paper!

Yeh, and i have the deeds for the Statue of Liberty............ Bwahahahah

[Minghequan]

Keith,

Why is it you reference me when responding to others? Am I that important? Stop using me in your attempts to justify your position.

[KPM]

Keith,

Why is it you reference me when responding to others? Am I that important? Stop using me in your attempts to justify your position.

Wow! You think pretty highly of yourself don't you Ron? :rolleyes: I referenced you because YOU made the same comment about "cherry picking" that JP made. So I gave him the same response I gave YOU. Clear enough?

[Minghequan]

:rolleyes: Man talk about "touchy!" :rolleyes:

Get out of the wrong side of bed this morning Keith:confused:

It's no big deal and certainly not to the level you are making it so don't sweat the small stuff! Just funnin' with Ya is all!;) Interesting though to see your reaction (or "over-reaction” :confused: )

Think highly of myself? No not really but I do believe in what I do and what I consider to be right just like any other person on this rotating blue ball.

Chill brother!

[zuti car]

I present the verifiable multiple historic source signatures and the signature of the Emei 12 zhuang gate keeper on paper.

That is what count.


Until you can come up with the same amount and level of solid evidence. What you have is just a story.

Give me the address of that museum we talked about , verify your source

[PalmStriker]

:) Quote Originally Posted by Minghequan View Post
Connection to Wing Chun? Maybe in a few cursory movements and appearance. :) Would be a great service to myself and others if Sifu Ron could ask Sifu Lee Kong about the last set in the video. He may just have the missing link information about this set that establishes the particular origin of the SLT set. I would think this set is of White Crane origin, perhaps a very old set and not vice-versa where a Crane lineage took on the SLT set as part of their repertoire from WingChun as have some other Southern lineages. The material looks too White Crane-like to have modified a version of WingChun SLT. Either way, maybe Sifu Lee Kong may know of this.

[KPM]

:rolleyes: Man talk about "touchy!" :rolleyes:

Get out of the wrong side of bed this morning Keith:confused:

It's no big deal and certainly not to the level you are making it so don't sweat the small stuff! Just funnin' with Ya is all!;) Interesting though to see your reaction (or "over-reaction” :confused: )

Think highly of myself? No not really but I do believe in what I do and what I consider to be right just like any other person on this rotating blue ball.

Chill brother!

Chill brother? You make snarky comments and directives like "stop using me in your attempts to justify your position." And when its pointed out to you how far off you are you justify it by saying "Just funnin' with Ya is all"??? If your tone and intention is not clear, and your words are rather rude, you are going to get a similar response. You you were "just funnin" when you told me to stop using you to "justify my position"?? :rolleyes: Your post certainly didn't seem to me like you were "just funnin."

[Minghequan]

Man! It's just an internet forum. For F#@k Sake stop being so sensitive!

[KPM]

Man! It's just an internet forum. For F#@k Sake stop being so sensitive!

Ah shucks! I was just funnin' with ya Ron! ;) :rolleyes:

[Minghequan]

Yeah me too baby. Good to see you can take a joke ....look in the mirror ... just funnin' with ya:D

[Minghequan]

RE: White Crane and Lee Kong as presented in the Vid posted ........

The last set shown has many similarities to Siu Nim Tao of the Snake Crane lineage.

Master Lee Kong confirms that this is very Old White Crane, not the same as other 5 crane styles. This set we cannot find in today's 5 White Crane lineages.

Out of respect for Master Lee Kong, I will not name this set nor say any more about it. It is a family form.

I can say that it was said that:


"You like to learn and to take as much as possible. What Shing did in the video, it is very similar to your fa jin video as you do your form"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBKHYb90lBw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bq_brh6zas

I hope this helps in some small way.

[KPM]

Ron wrote initially:

Snake-like? ... sorry don't see it myself.

Connection to Wing Chun? Maybe in a few cursory movements and appearance.


Ron says now:

The last set shown has many similarities to Siu Nim Tao of the Snake Crane lineage.


So I'm confused. Have you changed your mind and are now agreeing with me when I wrote in my first post:

Also note the form demonstrated near the end of the clip. Lots of very "snake-like" motions. You will see many Biu Gee's as well as the "waving hands" from the YMWCK Biu Gee form or the YKSWCK SNT form that is often referred to as "snake hands". I personally didn't realize that White Crane had these "snakey" motions.

[LFJ]

You will see many Biu Gee's as well as the "waving hands" from the YMWCK Biu Gee form or the YKSWCK SNT form that is often referred to as "snake hands".

"Waving hands" is a good name for it. WSL used to say that's them waving goodbye just before they die. :D
It's not done like that in our BJ form from YM.

[Minghequan]

Keith ..... really?

Did you even read my post. I said (slowly so you will understand!):


The last set shown has many similarities to Siu Nim Tao of the Snake Crane lineage.
Have you seen the Snake Crane Wing Chun Siu Nim Tao as performed by Master yung's people?

Yes it has similarities more so for me in the White Crane and less for the Snake (Doh! I'm a White Crane stylist, not a "Snake" stylist). Can I make that any clearer for you???

I don't see any connection to what Hendrik is touting from his end or his "snake" .... got it?

Interesting that you cherry piuck my statements to death ad-nausea yet Hendrik who is the master of un-clear and rather undefined statements gets no treatment from you?

Hendrik fails to answer the most direct and simple question yet you remain silent?

Hendrik says its his right to change his mind and yet you say nothing!

I attempt to clarify my view and off you go!

Hmmm maybe, just maybe you are showing signs of an agenda?

That's okay though as I can see where your headed and why. It doesn't matter as I'll keep posting my views and if this is all you have to contribute to the discussions well I think I'll just ignore you .... breaking up is so hard to do:D

[KPM]

I gave up on trying to make sense out of Hendrik long ago. But you're right. I guess I should just give up on trying to make any sense out of you as well. As much as you would hate to admit it, you too seem to be cut from a similar cloth. ;)

[PalmStriker]

RE: White Crane and Lee Kong as presented in the Vid posted ........

The last set shown has many similarities to Siu Nim Tao of the Snake Crane lineage.

Master Lee Kong confirms that this is very Old White Crane, not the same as other 5 crane styles. This set we cannot find in today's 5 White Crane lineages.

Out of respect for Master Lee Kong, I will not name this set nor say any more about it. It is a family form.

I can say that it was said that:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBKHYb90lBw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bq_brh6zas

I hope this helps in some small way. :):):) That is what I was hoping to here about the set which is the missing link to the WingChun/White Crane development origin. Many thanks to yourself and Master Lee Kong for this information, and of course the performer of the set.

[KPM]

The name of the set is Shier Jie Dao Quan (Loosely translated as, 12 Joints Power Fist). It has much in common with Ba Shou Sanzhan Quan (8 Hands 3 Conflicts Fist). Both forms strike a remarkable resemblance to Tensho of Goju Ryu. The Hua Shou (Flower Hands) section of Yong Chun's (Wing Chun) Xiao Lian Tou (Siu Lin Tau) set is well represented by both of these forms. The branches of Yong Chun that have a walking method of Xiao Lian Tou will no doubt find even greater similarity. 7 Bows (7 Stars), 6 Coordination's, 12 Bridges, 5 Elements etc. all play a part. The movements and patterns of Snake and Crane are often blurred and intermingled. Snake represents energy Crane represents sinew. Together they are the representation and manifestation of Liqi or Jin. The Naga (Snake/Dragon) and the Garuda (Crane/Eagle), this union dates back to the beginning of recorded history and has a much deeper meaning than many realize. I could elaborate much, much further but think it best for anyone interested to investigate this for themselves. If you do, you just may be amazed at what you find.

Very interesting! Thanks for the info Dave!

[Hendrik]

The name of the set is Shier Jie Dao Quan (Loosely translated as, 12 Joints Power Fist). It has much in common with Ba Shou Sanzhan Quan (8 Hands 3 Conflicts Fist). Both forms strike a remarkable resemblance to Tensho of Goju Ryu. The Hua Shou (Flower Hands) section of Yong Chun's (Wing Chun) Xiao Lian Tou (Siu Lin Tau) set is well represented by both of these forms. The branches of Yong Chun that have a walking method of Xiao Lian Tou will no doubt find even greater similarity. 7 Bows (7 Stars), 6 Coordination's, 12 Bridges, 5 Elements etc. all play a part. The movements and patterns of Snake and Crane are often blurred and intermingled. Snake represents energy Crane represents sinew. Together they are the representation and manifestation of Liqi or Jin. The Naga (Snake/Dragon) and the Garuda (Crane/Eagle), this union dates back to the beginning of recorded history and has a much deeper meaning than many realize. I could elaborate much, much further but think it best for anyone interested to investigate this for themselves. If you do, you just may be amazed at what you find.

Seven stars is not 7 bows I refer to. Different things.


Garuda is not crane.

Wing chun kuen Xiao lian Tou is a short strike art not a long fist art .

Fujian White crane even the Gm Lee Kong set doesnt develop the fingers details nd medirians similar to 1848 YKSLT which based its technolgy in the e mm ei 12 zhuang 20 medirians system. That differentiated Fujian white crane we with WCK

The key is in the details

[JPinAZ]

Wing Chun is a concept and is not bound by range.

Worth repeating! Since Hendrik doesn't train with partners or use his wing chun beyond doing forms, he can't and will never understand this.

[Minghequan]

KPM

I gave up on trying to make sense out of Hendrik long ago. But you're right. I guess I should just give up on trying to make any sense out of you as well. As much as you would hate to admit it, you too seem to be cut from a similar cloth.

Interesting. You state in black and white that you "gave up on trying to make sense out of Hendrik long ago" yet you rush to his defence at just about every opportunity? Very strange behaviour for one who admits that he can't make sense of Hendrik's writings. Oh well, martial arts is full of the strange and the wonderful.

So your giving up on me to Keith? Breaking my heart man! :( And here I was thinking you and I had something truly "special".:confused: Oh well at least we will be able to talk White Crane / Wing Chun without your distractions. I'm going to miss you buddy!:D

As for comparisons between me and Hendrik ... Lol the ramblings of a desperate man (You not Hendrik!). I am vastly different from Hendrik and I suspect you in a great many ways far to many to list here so I'll mention but a few:

1/. I actually train.
2/. I actually apply my art.
3/. I have used my art many, many times over the past 22 years as a Security Operative.
4/. I have direct links and lineage to China proper.
5/. I teach others five classes per week.

Anyhow. it has been interesting but I prefer discussing things with Palmstriker and David etc. They discuss the subject matter and not the personalities.

Best wishes Keith!

[KPM]

Here is another data point for anyone that may be interested. If you aren't interested in history, then please just ignore it. I pulled out my copy of "The Essence of Shaolin White Crane: Martial Power and Qigong" by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming. Dr. Yang says this on page 97:

Yongchun Quan was derived from Southern White Crane during the Qing Qian Long period (1736-1796). There is a saying that Yongchun Quan was started by the lady Yan, Yong-Chun who learned Southern White Crane techniques from the Buddhist nun Wumei in the mountains of Yunnan Province. Wumei's original name was Lu, Si-Niang. Later Yong-Chun brought the techniques back to Canton, where they became the Yongchun Fist.

Now, I'm not saying that this proves anything just because Dr. Yang wrote it in a book. I note this just to illustrate that here is one well known White Crane master that supported a Wing Chun & White Crane connection at least as far back as 1996.

[KPM]

Only for those that are interested. Sifu Lee Kong doing some Fukien White Crane:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5BXGjYQ7EU

[PalmStriker]

Great to see this form (SLT origins) performed by Sifu Lee Kong. Thanks for posting. :) In my own, personal research for lineage roots I am interested in this form as a reference to some of the techniques used in Wing Chun SLT so that I may further understand their intended use. I like to combine both YongChun and WingChun in my practice but also have much appreciation for the embodiment of many styles. * Note how Fook Sao is extended only once (right/Left) and not a repetition of 3 times as in WC SLT. This makes sense to me, anyway. My lineage nicknamed Fook Sao "Little Cannon" many years ago in Hong Kong and the SLT video demonstration by Hung Kuen Master Lam Yan shows Fook Sao used in this way, even though my own lineage does not show such emphasis when SLT form is demonstrated. On the other-hand, the Fook Sao demonstrated by Master Lee Kong shows a flowing "Push-Hands" application which also makes as much sense, combat-wise. I like to use Fook Sao more as a push hand to allow for wrist rotation one inch palmstrike technique, but still like the idea of using the Fook Sao as a battering ram, I do practice Kuk Sool wrist nerve conditioning exercises that would allow me to use it in this way without too much harm. Even to use Fook Sao as a pushing technique you would want to deaden those nerves a bit to prevent sprain if applied. * Exercise: Fook Sao hand position close to body, push with open palm on back of Fook Sao hand. Then, push with open palm on same hand palm to force wrist in opposite direction. If nerves do not bother you, not to worry.

[Vajramusti]

Only for those that are interested. Sifu Lee Kong doing some Fukien White Crane:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5BXGjYQ7EU
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An interesting and good looking form. And ofcourse crane style and snake style influences
are likely to have been historically there in wing chun.

However some wing chun syntheses have gone far beyond the snake and crane
via fighting on the red boats, Leung Jan's fights, Ip Man's fights and some of his students and grandstudents
fights and analyses.IMO of course.
-

[PalmStriker]

:) Agreed. WingChun is now very much a pugilistic style, maybe even before it got off the boats.

[Vajramusti]

:) Agreed. WingChun is now very much a pugilistic style, maybe even before it got off the boats.
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The wing chun that I do is more than just puglism. It has its own way of coordinating the body
and issuing power for piercing, throwing, seizing and hurting......

[sanjuro_ronin]

Systems either evolve or they die ( or get steamed rolled).
While it is great to know some history, it is what they system is NOW that matters. What YOU can DO with it NOW that is crucial.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1269110]Systems either evolve or they die ( or get steamed rolled).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe in some cases they are not properly learned in the first place.

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1269110]Systems either evolve or they die ( or get steamed rolled).

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe in some cases they are not properly learned in the first place.

That is always a possibility.
That said, we see progression/evolution in every MA that is geared towards actual fighting.
Maybe not in all styles of course, but that is their loss.
Look at boxing, look what it was 100 years ago and look at it now ( technique and training wise) the principles are still there of course BUT it has adapted and evolved beyond what it was ( pros and cons of course).
In MA, the rise of grappling and then/now MMA has presented the opportunity for growth in MA and the best systems will be those that can adapt to the changes and survive.
It is important to NOT forget where we come from ( it keeps us humble and open to change since change is what drove ever new MA to be developed) BUT we must never be stagnate in our MA growth.
Doing so would be a dishonor to that developed of our chosen MA(s).

[PalmStriker]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------




The wing chun that I do is more than just puglism. It has its own way of coordinating the body
and issuing power for piercing, throwing, seizing and hurting......
:) Would like to see it remain so.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1269112]

That is always a possibility.
That said, we see progression/evolution in every MA that is geared towards actual fighting.
Maybe not in all styles of course, but that is their loss.
Look at boxing, look what it was 100 years ago and look at it now ( technique and training wise) the principles are still there of course BUT it has adapted and evolved beyond what it was ( pros and cons of course).
In MA, the rise of grappling and then/now MMA has presented the opportunity for growth in MA and the best systems will be those that can adapt to the changes and survive.
It is important to NOT forget where we come from ( it keeps us humble and open to change since change is what drove ever new MA to be developed) BUT we must never be stagnate in our MA growth.
Doing so would be a dishonor to that developed of our chosen MA(s).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some similarities and differences in views,
1. Yes- boxing, grappling keeps on evolving for the better. And. kung fu stylists have to learn how to deal with them.

2. However- a controversial issue- there are differences between sportfighting and fighting when lives can be at stake.
Some paths point towards the latter. Most to the former because of the evolution of civil societies. Depending on where
in this world one lives there are broken turfs even in civil societies.

[Wayfaring]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1269113]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some similarities and differences in views,
1. Yes- boxing, grappling keeps on evolving for the better. And. kung fu stylists have to learn how to deal with them.

2. However- a controversial issue- there are differences between sportfighting and fighting when lives can be at stake.
Some paths point towards the latter. Most to the former because of the evolution of civil societies. Depending on where
in this world one lives there are broken turfs even in civil societies.

This is the struggle of every martial art. Connect to the past to remain authentic, connect to the future to remain relevant, all while only being able to affect the present.