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Jim Roselando
05-12-2014, 07:04 PM
Wing Chun & Emei Qigong Report

Boston, USA 2014

As most already know this has been a busy week up here in Boston and its still going! Truly an incredible few days of learning, sharing and friendship cultivating. This will be a small write up on the past few days!

*Wing Chun practitioners started arriving on Wed.. The first to arrive was my good friend Delroi Flood. Delroi flew in from Bermuda. I picked Delroi up at the airport and brought him back to his hotel. Shortly after that Phil Romero arrived from New Mexico and Danny Horgan (host of Wing Chun Blast) picked him up. Later that night we all met in the lobby of their hotel and headed off for training. We went to my office/whse which was right down the street and began! After a brief discussion about the body and breathing we started training Yik Kam's Siu Lin Tau for a few hours and we finished the last thirty minutes by practicing Dr. Leung Jan's 1st Chi Sao set.

*On Thu Jeff Kehler arrived from Philadelphia and right after I finished work we met up and headed over to the BMAC which is where I teach Pin Sun Wing Chun on Tue & Thu night. We started off by reviewing Dr. Leung Jan's half body/turning Kim Yeung Ma as well as our Triangle Steps. From there we moved on to the two man training for the Small & Big sets, continued to practice the 1st Chi Sao set and then worked on some sealing concepts from the Pin Sun art. We finished the night off with more Yik Kam SLT and then headed to eat a Sichuan feast.

*Friday was another busy day for Wing Chun. Phil, Jeff & Delroi were picked up in the a.m. by Danny and then they headed to the Boston Commons to film an episode for the Wing Chun Blast Youtube show. The guys filmed for most of the afternoon and then went back to their hotel which was when I picked them up for more Wing Chun! We headed back to the BMAC and began training. We started off with a review of Dr. Leung Jan's turning/footwork and warmed up with Pin Sun solo training. From there we moved right back to training the Small, Big & Chi Sao sets... Over and over we repeated these actions burning in the details. We trained for three hours, went for Mexican food and then it was back to the hotel for some R&R. A few hours later I picked the guys up at the hotel and we spent another thirty minutes reviewing anything that had any questions. (We actually took over a room in the lobby of the hotel. Move the tables and started practicing!) We also reviewed a couple of the sealing actions we worked on and briefly discussed Pin Sun Wing Chun's close body concepts. Next stop! Dinner at a Brazilian Steak House with Grandmaster Fu and then back to the hotel.

*Sat a.m we all met bright and early at the BMAC for Grandmaster Fu's Emei event. Training began with Emei's "Heavy Pounding" Breathing (level one). After we learned the breathing GM Fu then had everyone practice a thirty minute warm up with the Heavy Pounding Breath. Next we began the 1st of the 12 Zhuang's. The Tian Zi Zhuang or Heaven set. Move by move and with great details GM Fu went thru every section of this set. Truly Incredible. Other than a one hour lunch break I would say about six hours of the 8 hour seminar was devoted to the learning and practice of the Heaven set. After the seminar finished everyone went back to their hotels and a few hours later it was another feast with GM Fu but this time it was at an Indian Bistro. This night we had only 10 people having dinner with GM Fu and all were Wing Chun family!

*Sun a.m. we started at the same time. We began with thirty minutes of Heavy Pounding breath and then more practice of the Heaven set. Then GM Fu began to explain the subtle differences between the Heaven and the Earth set so we spent time reviewing and practicing the 2nd Zhuang of the Emei system. Phil & Jeff left about half way thru day two but before they left I left them film me doing the YK SLT so they could have it as a study guide. GM Fu continued by explained in great detail the next two important aspects of the Heaven & Earth set; Breathing & Mind Intention. Section by section we went thru the entire set and reviewed all the fine details. 1st we ran thru for the breathing and second we ran thru for the mind intention. We continued the practice by performing the Heaven & Earth set over and over.... During the last hour of the seminar we reviewed the Heavy Pounding (level two) which GM Fu taught us but specifically asked everyone not to practice unless they complete two 50 day cycles of level one. GM Fu finished the day with an open Q&A and my only question to him was; Will You Come Back Next Year???

As a short summary; Wed/Thu/Fri we trained 8 hours of Wing Chun. Sat & Sun we trained close to 14 hours of Emei Qigong. Truly an incredible week!

A big thank you to my Wing Chun friends, my MIT Qigong friends and all the Emei Qigong practitioners that made this a real success. We all came to study this sacred system directly with the gatekeeper. Grandmaster Fu is not only a gifted practitioner but also a gifted teacher! I regard GM Fu as a living treasure and recommend anyone who has the opportunity to train with him to not think twice about it and go train with him!

Respect to Grandmaster Fu!

***

A few memories from this historic weekend!

To see a photo of the Emei Qigong Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong reviewing the Siu Lin Tao Kuen Kuit just visit my Facebook site!

The picture is from yesterday (5/11/14). This was the second time over the weekend that I asked Grandmaster Fu to review the SLT Kuen Kuit and see if there were any elements from his Emei Qigong art contained within the poetry?

(This time I brought a yellow highlighter with me so there could be no confusion later.)

Grandmaster Fu went thru the writing line by line and page after page highlighting what he felt were from Emei or similar to Emei. Grandmaster Fu felt a large portion of part one comes directly from Emei and scattered throughout parts two, three & four were Emei signatures woven into the SLT KK. Grandmaster Fu then signed and dated the last page making this truly historic!

I know this was an important moment for the Wing Chun art as we have the gatekeeper of the Emei tradition stating many elements of our SLT ancient writing was from or similar to their writing. Combine that with numerous physical similarities that are/were just too similar to be a 'coincidence', you can only come up with one logical conclusion. We are related, or an offspring, of the Emei art.

A little background. In 2007 I visited Grandmaster Fu to study and interview him. The article I published after that meeting was translated into Chinese and published on Grandmaster Fu's own webpage. I will once again be writing a detailed article on this weekends research which I will publish in my Wing Chun Illustrated column...

Btw: We recorded everything! The entire event was filmed and we will be releasing a short highlight clip soon!

What an incredible weekend!!!

Respect to Grandmaster Fu and the Emei tradition!

Hendrik
05-12-2014, 07:17 PM
Per Jim's request to post this. His computer cannot downnload

Minghequan
05-12-2014, 07:23 PM
Cool! So at the end of the day is it Wing Chun or is it Emei?

Jim Roselando
05-12-2014, 07:36 PM
Full report coming soon!

:-)

Firehawk4
05-12-2014, 08:08 PM
They have a Heaven and Earth Chi Gung with Breathing in Ngo Cho Kun Kung Fu in there forms i mean Ngo Cho Kun has forms for Heaven and Earth .

Minghequan
05-12-2014, 08:18 PM
Maybe Ngo Cho Kun is the real Wing Chun???:D

LFJ
05-12-2014, 11:32 PM
According to Sergio, GM Fu said he recognized some similarities between Emei and Hendrik's YK SLT form. So that's proof positive Wing Chun's mother art is from Emei, right? Quality research. Seems legit! :):rolleyes:

theo
05-12-2014, 11:54 PM
Did you read what Jim wrote? From Jim's comment:

Grandmaster Fu went thru the writing line by line and page after page highlighting what he felt were from Emei or similar to Emei. Grandmaster Fu felt a large portion of part one comes directly from Emei and scattered throughout parts two, three & four were Emei signatures woven into the SLT KK. Grandmaster Fu then signed and dated the last page making this truly historic!

I know this was an important moment for the Wing Chun art as we have the gatekeeper of the Emei tradition stating many elements of our SLT ancient writing was from or similar to their writing. Combine that with numerous physical similarities that are/were just too similar to be a 'coincidence', you can only come up with one logical conclusion. We are related, or an offspring, of the Emei art.





According to Sergio, GM Fu said he recognized some similarities between Emei and Hendrik's YK SLT form. So that's proof positive Wing Chun's mother art is from Emei, right? Quality research. Seems legit! :):rolleyes:

LFJ
05-13-2014, 12:17 AM
Yeah. The same can be said about most TCMA. They're almost all interrelated in some way. Until you get names and dates showing the spread of an art from one area to another and how it developed and evolved, you're just filling gaps with wishful thinking. As certain as you may like to be, it's dishonest to make that sort of declaration. But there is that desire to be "the ones" who discovered Wing Chun's roots.

GlennR
05-13-2014, 12:30 AM
According to Sergio, GM Fu said he recognized some similarities between Emei and Hendrik's YK SLT form. So that's proof positive Wing Chun's mother art is from Emei, right? Quality research. Seems legit! :):rolleyes:

Honestly, the "outcome" of this is already predetermined........... save us the wait and announce the joyous news now!!!

FWIW, down here in Australia weve had an Aboriginal Elder look at the SLT ,and he recognises some traces of the kangaroo form in it...... ergo; the Mother art OF WC is Kangaroo Style!!

So put that in your pipe and smoke it YKSLT - 1848 - Emei - Transform - snake - Stylists!!!

GlennR
05-13-2014, 12:31 AM
Yeah. The same can be said about most TCMA. They're almost all interrelated in some way. Until you get names and dates showing the spread of an art from one area to another and how it developed and evolved, you're just filling gaps with wishful thinking. As certain as you may like to be, it's dishonest to make that sort of declaration. But there is that desire to be "the ones" who discovered Wing Chun's roots.

Nicely put

Minghequan
05-13-2014, 12:31 AM
Seems to me a part of a larger agenda to push the Snake and Emei aspects to the known world even though factually Hendrik has been caught out so many times that the holes in his arguments has holes!

I'm getting a vibe that a "New Wing Chun Group" will soon be announced with these rather one-sided people at the helm and of course, selling the one and only real "Wing Chun" to all comers.

As for Fu Wei Zhong, I see an opportunist who will say whatever they want to hear if it will lead to more recognition for him, his teachings and marketability to the West!

Minghequan
05-13-2014, 01:04 AM
Its all making sense now, its all coming together ... Hendrik's incessant posting, then the Sergio vids, KPM's defence of an illogical Hendrik and now Robert Chu and Jim jumping on a bandwagon .... yeah they are going to make an announcement fairly soon I'm betting!

theo
05-13-2014, 01:59 AM
GM Fu here is referring to the similarities between the 1848 version of SLT, and not the general SNT that is more common today.

Things have changed since then obviously as evolution occurred. What this proves is that at the time of 1848 Red Boats, the practice of SLT was done with the Emei technology

My reading of this is:

1. The SLT kuit is preserved from the Red Boat era. The kuit describes SLT content and practice at that time.
2. GM Fu has gone through it line by line and found to a large degree it matches almost word for word the same as his own writing.
3. As a result, SLT practice at the time of 1848 on the Red Boats contains Emei technology






Yeah. The same can be said about most TCMA. They're almost all interrelated in some way. Until you get names and dates showing the spread of an art from one area to another and how it developed and evolved, you're just filling gaps with wishful thinking. As certain as you may like to be, it's dishonest to make that sort of declaration. But there is that desire to be "the ones" who discovered Wing Chun's roots.

LFJ
05-13-2014, 04:05 AM
What this proves is that at the time of 1848 Red Boats, the practice of SLT was done with the Emei technology

No, it doesn't. There are similarities in most TCMA, in their actions and writings because they are all interrelated, but it takes more than that to determine which ones are directly related and how.

What's to say it's not the other way around, that this "Emei technology" was actually the offspring? You have no names, no events, nothing that shows the art's spread from one area to another and from whom to whom. What you have is the answer you guys already made up for the question you want to ask. You have yet to ask the right questions.

KPM
05-13-2014, 04:06 AM
Its all making sense now, its all coming together ... Hendrik's incessant posting, then the Sergio vids, KPM's defence of an illogical Hendrik and now Robert Chu and Jim jumping on a bandwagon .... yeah they are going to make an announcement fairly soon I'm betting!

I don't know. Maybe you're right! Maybe there is some kind of project in the works. But believe me when I say....I'm not in on it! I'll say this about my "defense of an illogical Hendrik." Hendrik has been illogical at times. But the only thing I have defended are the illogical attacks on Hendrik, and I would do the same for you Ron. Like I've said, I just "call 'em like I see 'em."

KPM
05-13-2014, 04:44 AM
Thanks for the report Jim! Looking forward to reading more and seeing the highlight clip!


Wing Chun & Emei Qigong Report

Boston, USA 2014

As most already know this has been a busy week up here in Boston and its still going! Truly an incredible few days of learning, sharing and friendship cultivating. This will be a small write up on the past few days!

*Wing Chun practitioners started arriving on Wed.. The first to arrive was my good friend Delroi Flood. Delroi flew in from Bermuda. I picked Delroi up at the airport and brought him back to his hotel. Shortly after that Phil Romero arrived from New Mexico and Danny Horgan (host of Wing Chun Blast) picked him up. Later that night we all met in the lobby of their hotel and headed off for training. We went to my office/whse which was right down the street and began! After a brief discussion about the body and breathing we started training Yik Kam's Siu Lin Tau for a few hours and we finished the last thirty minutes by practicing Dr. Leung Jan's 1st Chi Sao set.

*On Thu Jeff Kehler arrived from Philadelphia and right after I finished work we met up and headed over to the BMAC which is where I teach Pin Sun Wing Chun on Tue & Thu night. We started off by reviewing Dr. Leung Jan's half body/turning Kim Yeung Ma as well as our Triangle Steps. From there we moved on to the two man training for the Small & Big sets, continued to practice the 1st Chi Sao set and then worked on some sealing concepts from the Pin Sun art. We finished the night off with more Yik Kam SLT and then headed to eat a Sichuan feast.

*Friday was another busy day for Wing Chun. Phil, Jeff & Delroi were picked up in the a.m. by Danny and then they headed to the Boston Commons to film an episode for the Wing Chun Blast Youtube show. The guys filmed for most of the afternoon and then went back to their hotel which was when I picked them up for more Wing Chun! We headed back to the BMAC and began training. We started off with a review of Dr. Leung Jan's turning/footwork and warmed up with Pin Sun solo training. From there we moved right back to training the Small, Big & Chi Sao sets... Over and over we repeated these actions burning in the details. We trained for three hours, went for Mexican food and then it was back to the hotel for some R&R. A few hours later I picked the guys up at the hotel and we spent another thirty minutes reviewing anything that had any questions. (We actually took over a room in the lobby of the hotel. Move the tables and started practicing!) We also reviewed a couple of the sealing actions we worked on and briefly discussed Pin Sun Wing Chun's close body concepts. Next stop! Dinner at a Brazilian Steak House with Grandmaster Fu and then back to the hotel.

*Sat a.m we all met bright and early at the BMAC for Grandmaster Fu's Emei event. Training began with Emei's "Heavy Pounding" Breathing (level one). After we learned the breathing GM Fu then had everyone practice a thirty minute warm up with the Heavy Pounding Breath. Next we began the 1st of the 12 Zhuang's. The Tian Zi Zhuang or Heaven set. Move by move and with great details GM Fu went thru every section of this set. Truly Incredible. Other than a one hour lunch break I would say about six hours of the 8 hour seminar was devoted to the learning and practice of the Heaven set. After the seminar finished everyone went back to their hotels and a few hours later it was another feast with GM Fu but this time it was at an Indian Bistro. This night we had only 10 people having dinner with GM Fu and all were Wing Chun family!

*Sun a.m. we started at the same time. We began with thirty minutes of Heavy Pounding breath and then more practice of the Heaven set. Then GM Fu began to explain the subtle differences between the Heaven and the Earth set so we spent time reviewing and practicing the 2nd Zhuang of the Emei system. Phil & Jeff left about half way thru day two but before they left I left them film me doing the YK SLT so they could have it as a study guide. GM Fu continued by explained in great detail the next two important aspects of the Heaven & Earth set; Breathing & Mind Intention. Section by section we went thru the entire set and reviewed all the fine details. 1st we ran thru for the breathing and second we ran thru for the mind intention. We continued the practice by performing the Heaven & Earth set over and over.... During the last hour of the seminar we reviewed the Heavy Pounding (level two) which GM Fu taught us but specifically asked everyone not to practice unless they complete two 50 day cycles of level one. GM Fu finished the day with an open Q&A and my only question to him was; Will You Come Back Next Year???

As a short summary; Wed/Thu/Fri we trained 8 hours of Wing Chun. Sat & Sun we trained close to 14 hours of Emei Qigong. Truly an incredible week!

A big thank you to my Wing Chun friends, my MIT Qigong friends and all the Emei Qigong practitioners that made this a real success. We all came to study this sacred system directly with the gatekeeper. Grandmaster Fu is not only a gifted practitioner but also a gifted teacher! I regard GM Fu as a living treasure and recommend anyone who has the opportunity to train with him to not think twice about it and go train with him!

Respect to Grandmaster Fu!

***

A few memories from this historic weekend!

To see a photo of the Emei Qigong Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong reviewing the Siu Lin Tao Kuen Kuit just visit my Facebook site!

The picture is from yesterday (5/11/14). This was the second time over the weekend that I asked Grandmaster Fu to review the SLT Kuen Kuit and see if there were any elements from his Emei Qigong art contained within the poetry?

(This time I brought a yellow highlighter with me so there could be no confusion later.)

Grandmaster Fu went thru the writing line by line and page after page highlighting what he felt were from Emei or similar to Emei. Grandmaster Fu felt a large portion of part one comes directly from Emei and scattered throughout parts two, three & four were Emei signatures woven into the SLT KK. Grandmaster Fu then signed and dated the last page making this truly historic!

I know this was an important moment for the Wing Chun art as we have the gatekeeper of the Emei tradition stating many elements of our SLT ancient writing was from or similar to their writing. Combine that with numerous physical similarities that are/were just too similar to be a 'coincidence', you can only come up with one logical conclusion. We are related, or an offspring, of the Emei art.

A little background. In 2007 I visited Grandmaster Fu to study and interview him. The article I published after that meeting was translated into Chinese and published on Grandmaster Fu's own webpage. I will once again be writing a detailed article on this weekends research which I will publish in my Wing Chun Illustrated column...

Btw: We recorded everything! The entire event was filmed and we will be releasing a short highlight clip soon!

What an incredible weekend!!!

Respect to Grandmaster Fu and the Emei tradition!

Hendrik
05-13-2014, 07:10 AM
Thanks for the report Jim! Looking forward to reading more and seeing the highlight clip!


1.
With the third party wcners meeting with Emei 12 zhuang gatekeeper , it is an objective evaluation.

I have never meet Gm Fu, beside Jim and one other wcners, I have never meet the team.


A,
With Gm Fu find a big part of the 1848 Yik Kam SLT part 1 kuit can be tracked to emei 12 zhuang , and the set indeed has many of the Emei 12 zhuang unique signatures.

We do know now , a big part of this 1848 red boat Wck data point from Yik kam SLT and its Kuit is indeed Emei 12 zhuang based. The gate keeper of Emei 12 zhuang willing to sign his name on it.



B,
Based on how the team benefit on their Wck from this meeting significantly , We know the emei technology can be examine by any wcners and let them make up their own conclusion based on facts.

It is up to any individual to take or leave the Emei 12 zhuang connection finding and verification.

Ie: from those who were in the meeting

It is the other half to wing chun. After this week with Sifu Fu . you don't need half a brain to connect the dots. It a huge undertaking to train it most won't and will give up on it.



Some may feel that WC is a quick fast easy to learn system. If you do your research you will see that after 1850 the body of the art was stripped out so that it only focused on the application of the art. This was to get short term fighters out there. This has some how become our standard. It has also come at a price. Qigong is not being added. It's being put back as it was originally intended. Believe me I did not know or understand this myself at first. ..


Yes there are too many things that were not just very similar but virtually the same between Emei and WCK for this to be a coincidence at this point. I went in with an open mind to the connection but was really quite blown away.




2.

As for the Emei 12 zhuang connection on Yik Kam WCK within the Cho Family ancestors WCK which I have inherit from my sifu, now verified , confirm , and signed by the Gate keeper of Emei 12 zhuang; it is a proven facts.

Others Cho family lineages are free to have their view and believe on their own lineages which I respect.
I only presenting the part of inheritance from my lineage.


3.

This inheritance from my sifu , Late Gm Cho Hung Choy , which has been verified above by the Emei 12 zhuang Gatekerper Gm Fu , is now placed under the Yik kam and Cho family Wck intangible culture heritage position. It is a data point of 1848 red boat Wck.

LFJ
05-13-2014, 07:35 AM
Some may feel that WC is a quick fast easy to learn system. If you do your research you will see that after 1850 the body of the art was stripped out so that it only focused on the application of the art. This was to get short term fighters out there. This has some how become our standard.

For shame!! :(

Let's re-add all the superstitious bullsh!t so students focus on something other than application and it takes years to become any sort of useful fighter, if ever!

Hendrik
05-13-2014, 07:41 AM
For shame!! :(

Let's re-add all the superstitious bullsh!t so students focus on something other than application and it takes years to become any sort of useful fighter, if ever!


Anyone can have their opinion based on their experience . You can have yours.




For me, the following is a waste of time and developing bad habit . I rather go learn western boxing where all effort and training is applicable in fighting .


Originally Posted by LFJ
The training stance and shapes aren't used in fighting application. That would be a terrible misinterpretation.
.

HybridWarrior
05-13-2014, 07:42 AM
the body of the art was stripped out so that it only focused on the application of the art.


Hmmmm....and here I thought the 'body' of the art WAS & IS focused towards application. I thought this was always the focus.

Hendrik
05-13-2014, 07:46 AM
Hmmmm....and here I thought the 'body' of the art WAS & IS focused towards application. I thought this was always the focus.

Body or the art and application of the art are two wings of the bird.

One rely on the others

LFJ
05-13-2014, 07:50 AM
For me, the following is a waste of time and developing bad habit . I rather go learn western boxing where all effort and training is applicable in fighting .


Originally Posted by LFJ
The training stance and shapes aren't used in fighting application. That would be a terrible misinterpretation.
.

That's because you have no idea how the system works. Embarrassing after decades of "research".

Hendrik
05-13-2014, 07:53 AM
Again,

I am not trying to sell you anything or join my club or convert you.


I just share

This data point of 1848 red boat Wck exist and verified. It is a cultural heritage of Wck .


That's all.

The rest is your freedom to take it or leave it or ignore it....etc. Up to you.

Hendrik
05-13-2014, 07:56 AM
That's because you have no idea how the system works. Embarrassing after decades of "research".


Could you please share what is THE IDEA of --
The training stance and shapes aren't used in fighting application. --- As you have present?



For me, I rather go study western boxing or kyokushin instead of training stance or shapes aren't use in fighting application. Because i have limited time and energy.

zuti car
05-13-2014, 07:57 AM
This data point of 1848 red boat Wck exist and verified. It is a cultural heritage of Wck .


.

Does not exist anywhere beyond your mind and it is not verified , I showed that clearly , and whole story does not have anything with cultural heritage of anything

Hendrik
05-13-2014, 08:01 AM
Does not exist anywhere beyond your mind and it is not verified , I showed that clearly , and whole story does not have anything with cultural heritage of anything



The following is post in this forum by a wcners I have not meet but testing the Emei 12 zhuang Technology I have shared.



Just to pass a general note on the standing practice (as you have shown me Hendrik) and how it has impacted my wing chun; mainly fluidity and an ability to really ground myself. People I have chi saued with have particularly noted the change in my grounding to the extent that I got a phone call from one of them that weighs 96kg, asking me why he couldn't move me when I weighed just 64 KG (at the time) when we rolled quite vigorously.

Hendrik
05-13-2014, 08:07 AM
Its all making sense now, its all coming together ... Hendrik's incessant posting, then the Sergio vids, KPM's defence of an illogical Hendrik and now Robert Chu and Jim jumping on a bandwagon .... yeah they are going to make an announcement fairly soon I'm betting!


You will be a top grandmaster of Fortune Telling of our Era. Please consider to switch your job

LoneTiger108
05-13-2014, 08:36 AM
It always seems like there is a big 'for and against' anything new (or old!) that comes along in the Wing Chun mainstream, but I have found all the banter quite boring at times!! From ALL parties too!!!

Why can't people simply congratulate someone on their article, event and findings as I am sure Jim has only shared this stuff as he is enthusiastic as ever to connect the dots that make sense to him. And this is what we all should be looking at doing isn't it?? Making sense of what we have rather than relying on what everyone else says?!

I have a lot of time for people who really put in the hard work and effort to uncover connections to our past Wing Chun influences, but I too am a sceptic because I have seen it all before, story after story, claim after claim. And where are all these people now?? What are they doing for Wing Chun now???

So do your own research, ask your Sifu the right questions (if you still have one!) and follow your hearts. What feels right for some will not be the same for everyone else, as I for one do not need any Emei/Crane Arts to make my Forms come alive, but I respect and understand maybe some of the reasons that others feel differently.

Then again, I wave Flags and train for a performance objective, so I am deluded according to some!

Wayfaring
05-13-2014, 08:55 AM
GM Fu here is referring to the similarities between the 1848 version of SLT, and not the general SNT that is more common today.

Things have changed since then obviously as evolution occurred. What this proves is that at the time of 1848 Red Boats, the practice of SLT was done with the Emei technology

My reading of this is:

1. The SLT kuit is preserved from the Red Boat era. The kuit describes SLT content and practice at that time.
2. GM Fu has gone through it line by line and found to a large degree it matches almost word for word the same as his own writing.
3. As a result, SLT practice at the time of 1848 on the Red Boats contains Emei technology

"the 1848 version of SLT"

Actually to me it's the THE that kind of overreaches there.

zuti car
05-13-2014, 08:56 AM
The following is post in this forum by a wcners I have not meet but testing the Emei 12 zhuang Technology I have shared.



Just to pass a general note on the standing practice (as you have shown me Hendrik) and how it has impacted my wing chun; mainly fluidity and an ability to really ground myself. People I have chi saued with have particularly noted the change in my grounding to the extent that I got a phone call from one of them that weighs 96kg, asking me why he couldn't move me when I weighed just 64 KG (at the time) when we rolled quite vigorously.

Same thing you can achieve with tai chi , ba gua, hsing i , feeding crane ...ect. That emei stuff is just borrowed material from real internal kung fu styles , older ones . There isn't any emei technology , actually , there is today , but there wasn't any in 19th Century

Hendrik
05-13-2014, 09:55 AM
Same thing you can achieve with tai chi , ba gua, hsing i , feeding crane ...ect. That emei stuff is just borrowed material from real internal kung fu styles , older ones . There isn't any emei technology , actually , there is today , but there wasn't any in 19th Century

Sorry,

The gate keeper of Emei 12 zhuang , verify and signed his name.

Hendrik
05-13-2014, 10:00 AM
"the 1848 version of SLT"

Actually to me it's the THE that kind of overreaches there.



You certainly are free to have you view.


1848 version SLT ---- is back up by traceable multiple sources.
from:
Yik kam's existing,
Ancient Chinese martial art DNA,
Chinese opera signature ,
Anti Qing signature ,
CLF signature ....etc
of that era.

zuti car
05-13-2014, 10:29 AM
Sorry,

The gate keeper of Emei 12 zhuang , verify and signed his name.

Sorry , not even one single evidence

theo
05-13-2014, 10:33 AM
i think on one hand, you've got the people making up theories and speculating while on the other, there are actual documents and multiple sources including the Emei lineage holder himself confirming the connection.

The 1848 writing of SLT kuit has been verified by the Emei GM to have Emei, almost word for word in several of the kuits. He sees Emei signatures in that version of the SLT as well.

Are people saying here that they know what is and isn't Emei and the Emei lineage holder doesn't know what he's talking about? :rolleyes:




"the 1848 version of SLT"

Actually to me it's the THE that kind of overreaches there.

Wayfaring
05-13-2014, 03:22 PM
You certainly are free to have you view.


1848 version SLT ---- is back up by traceable multiple sources.
from:
Yik kam's existing,
Ancient Chinese martial art DNA,
Chinese opera signature ,
Anti Qing signature ,
CLF signature ....etc
of that era.

My view is that your family's YKS lineage and facts or evidence regarding it cannot be extended to represent ALL of the WCK present in that time period. But I have no issues with you tracing the history of your own family WCK back through your ancestry.

JPinAZ
05-13-2014, 03:23 PM
GM Fu here is referring to the similarities between the 1848 version of SLT, and not the general SNT that is more common today.

Things have changed since then obviously as evolution occurred. What this proves is that at the time of 1848 Red Boats, the practice of SLT was done with the Emei technology

My reading of this is:

1. The SLT kuit is preserved from the Red Boat era. The kuit describes SLT content and practice at that time.
2. GM Fu has gone through it line by line and found to a large degree it matches almost word for word the same as his own writing.
3. As a result, SLT practice at the time of 1848 on the Red Boats contains Emei technology


A,
With Gm Fu find a big part of the 1848 Yik Kam SLT part 1 kuit can be tracked to emei 12 zhuang , and the set indeed has many of the Emei 12 zhuang unique signatures.

We do know now , a big part of this 1848 red boat Wck data point from Yik kam SLT and its Kuit is indeed Emei 12 zhuang based. The gate keeper of Emei 12 zhuang willing to sign his name on it.

Ok, so now it's perfectly clear, and what Wayfaring is saying is correct. What the above says about what might have been 'proven' is that sometime in the past Emei and YIK KAM's personal wing chun may have crossed paths and some stuff may have been mixed/shared one way or the other (or both). Nothing more than that and only to do with Yik Kam's wing chun.

GlennR
05-13-2014, 03:25 PM
Just to pass a general note on the standing practice (as you have shown me Hendrik) and how it has impacted my wing chun; mainly fluidity and an ability to really ground myself. People I have chi saued with have particularly noted the change in my grounding to the extent that I got a phone call from one of them that weighs 96kg, asking me why he couldn't move me when I weighed just 64 KG (at the time) when we rolled quite vigorously.

[/QUOTE]

PLENTY of WC people can do that, your old favourite TST is brilliant at it it yet you say he "is doing it wrong"

Please explain numbnuts?

Firehawk4
05-13-2014, 04:08 PM
Pak Mei Kung Fu is supossed to have Emei in it does Pak Me Kung Fu Have the Emei 12 Zhuang in It ?

Minghequan
05-13-2014, 05:13 PM
Hendrik wrote:

I just share

Hendrik, That's great to hear!!!

Can you please "share" regarding the following:

1/. Did Robert approve your post quoting Lee Kong?

2/. Did Lee Kong approve your post quoting him?

Remember, Lee Kong said:

"Lee Kong said you are a mouse, who likes to take things from others and that you should be ignored completely"

KPM
05-13-2014, 05:51 PM
Ok, so now it's perfectly clear, and what Wayfaring is saying is correct. What the above says about what might have been 'proven' is that sometime in the past Emei and YIK KAM's personal wing chun may have crossed paths and some stuff may have been mixed/shared one way or the other (or both). Nothing more than that and only to do with Yik Kam's wing chun.

Now this is the most common sense statement that has been made so far! ;)

zuti car
05-13-2014, 06:41 PM
Ok, so now it's perfectly clear, and what Wayfaring is saying is correct. What the above says about what might have been 'proven' is that sometime in the past Emei and YIK KAM's personal wing chun may have crossed paths and some stuff may have been mixed/shared one way or the other (or both). Nothing more than that and only to do with Yik Kam's wing chun.

That happened only in Hendrik's head , true lineage holders know nothing about mixing with emei styles

LFJ
05-13-2014, 09:08 PM
Could you please share what is THE IDEA of --
The training stance and shapes aren't used in fighting application. --- As you have present?



For me, I rather go study western boxing or kyokushin instead of training stance or shapes aren't use in fighting application. Because i have limited time and energy.

Seriously? This is day 1 knowledge for any Wing Chun practitioner. :confused:

The skills developed by the training stance and actions are directly applicable. The stance itself and the shapes are not meant to be applied literally.

The fact that you're not doing Western Boxing or Kyokushin now tell me you must think you can fight standing in a SNT pose? I would love to have seen Hoffmann drop you on your ass.

anerlich
05-14-2014, 12:35 AM
the Emei lineage holder doesn't know what he's talking about?

The probability of that is not zero, especially if you look at the new company he's elected to keep.

Paddington
05-14-2014, 01:20 AM
Same thing you can achieve with tai chi , ba gua, hsing i , feeding crane ...ect. That emei stuff is just borrowed material from real internal kung fu styles , older ones . There isn't any emei technology , actually , there is today , but there wasn't any in 19th Century

How old is Emei zuti car? Do you know? I don't.

Those who have spent time with members of VTAA, including WSL, should know that qigong has been practiced as a part of wing chun for a very long time within that association. Nearly all of the sifus and masters during the VTAA early period have mentioned and shown qigong practices to train and use alongside their wing chun. Likewise it is a similar situation with respects to the idea of the bows where the only difference I can spot with respects to what Hendrik has said, is the highlighting of the 7th (or first depending where you start your count) bow, namely the foot's connection with the ground.

LFJ
05-14-2014, 01:49 AM
i think on one hand, you've got the people making up theories and speculating while on the other, there are actual documents and multiple sources including the Emei lineage holder himself confirming the connection.

This is just one hand belonging to the same person/people!

Almost all TCMA are interrelated in both writings and techniques. But you actually have no historical documents stating the connection between Emei and Wing Chun, how they are related, how the arts spread from one area to another, when, from whom to whom, etc..

A guy in 2014 looking at your material and saying 'hey, that's similar to what we do' is not a confirmation of anything beyond similarity. Understand? There's a lot more work ahead of you guys if you wish to make the declarations you're trying now.

zuti car
05-14-2014, 03:58 AM
How old is Emei zuti car? Do you know? I don't.

Those who have spent time with members of VTAA, including WSL, should know that qigong has been practiced as a part of wing chun for a very long time within that association. Nearly all of the sifus and masters during the VTAA early period have mentioned and shown qigong practices to train and use alongside their wing chun. Likewise it is a similar situation with respects to the idea of the bows where the only difference I can spot with respects to what Hendrik has said, is the highlighting of the 7th (or first depending where you start your count) bow, namely the foot's connection with the ground.

I don't know , what I do know is that there is no evidence of emei snake in 19th and early 20th Century , no documents , no stone carvings , no wooden plates , nothing , just a lot of legends( marketing) and all that can be traced to the late republican period and pulp fiction novels . Real historical research is not what "researchers" like hendrik&co are doing, colleting old people's stories and picking what ever they find on the web to fit in their idea of history . There is something called SCIENTIFIC METHOD , and it is very well known and there are standards which should be applied to any scientific research . Now , people can play researchers , like some of them here are doing for a long time for various reasons but outcome will be nothing more than fiction and personal desires mixed in a fairy tale ,or they can rely on science in order to get the truth .

theo
05-14-2014, 04:19 AM
LFJ, in this case though, it's not someone just looking and saying it looks similar. GM Fu has gone through the writing from 1848 SLT and the Emei match up. Unless you're saying that he doesn't recognize his own Emei content?


This is just one hand belonging to the same person/people!

Almost all TCMA are interrelated in both writings and techniques. But you actually have no historical documents stating the connection between Emei and Wing Chun, how they are related, how the arts spread from one area to another, when, from whom to whom, etc..

A guy in 2014 looking at your material and saying 'hey, that's similar to what we do' is not a confirmation of anything beyond similarity. Understand? There's a lot more work ahead of you guys if you wish to make the declarations you're trying now.

LFJ
05-14-2014, 04:27 AM
LFJ, in this case though, it's not someone just looking and saying it looks similar. GM Fu has gone through the writing from 1848 SLT and the Emei match up. Unless you're saying that he doesn't recognize his own Emei content?

Anyone who has done TCMA research will know many TCMAs share similar or matching verses and different expressions of the same body of techniques. That's because they are interrelated, but it doesn't tell us anything about how, when, where, who...

You're all basically taking a giant leap from 'hey, these are similar/matching' to 'we have now confirmed the origin of Wing Chun', but you completely lack any amount of definitive historical information answering the essential questions.

tc101
05-14-2014, 05:22 AM
Anyone who has done TCMA research will know many TCMAs share similar or matching verses and different expressions of the same body of techniques. That's because they are interrelated, but it doesn't tell us anything about how, when, where, who...

You're all basically taking a giant leap from 'hey, these are similar/matching' to 'we have now confirmed the origin of Wing Chun', but you completely lack any amount of definitive historical information answering the essential questions.

Yes that is very true. Also as others point out that perhaps the case can be made that ermei and Hendrik's lineage of wing chun are related some how but since other branches of wing chun do not have his kuit which is the so called link there is no evidence they are related. All we can say is Hendrik's branch adopted the ermei stuff at some point.

The thing I find interesting in all this is how none of the people doing this so called research have ever ever ever demonstrated the least martial skill.

HybridWarrior
05-14-2014, 05:30 AM
...and Hendrik's lineage of wing chun...

Exactly!!


All we can say is Hendrik's branch adopted the ermei stuff at some point.

Yup!!!

I think the problem with all this dumb-assery (technical term! haha) is that HS comes across on this forum that it's not only his WC but ALL of WC that is missing the secret sauce and that we all suck without it.

zuti car
05-14-2014, 08:24 PM
Fools! You will all rue the day when Hendrik is proven correct by the Wing Chun 'historians'. Convert now you godless heathens!

I admit , I was wrong , how can I repent for my sins , how can I be forgiven ?????????

Hendrik
05-14-2014, 08:33 PM
Fools! You will all rue the day when Hendrik is proven correct by the Wing Chun 'historians'. Convert now you godless heathens!



One wants to keep spinning the mind draining energy

or

Learning the four ways of develop SLT and
Attain the level within the nine level of attainment .


That is ones free choice.

zuti car
05-14-2014, 08:59 PM
Heathen! You will only be forgiven if you can snatch the cheese from the trap. Once this is done carry the cheese to the mouse king and beg for forgiveness. :D

But,but , but, won't I be caught in the trap ? Mouse in a trap is dead mouse ,you are asking for too much fate from this little mouse .

zuti car
05-14-2014, 09:09 PM
Is it not better for you to make such a sacrifice lest your lord the mouse king be caught? Do your duty without question or fail serf or it'll be the stocks for you! :eek:

Poor little me , I don't know what to do, I don't know what to do ....

zuti car
05-14-2014, 09:17 PM
Snatch the cheese. Do not eat the cheese. Drink the kool aid.

I...am...so... afraid...brrrrrrrrr

zuti car
05-14-2014, 09:51 PM
No need to be afraid. Jim Jones made the kool aid himself. :D

Really ? Really, really ? So I can really do it ?

zuti car
05-15-2014, 01:20 AM
Absolutely, you only have to be willing to compromise your dignity, swallow your pride, ignore all reason and logical thought, sell your soul and urinate on the traditions taught to you. Once you do this you are ready to don the cloak of shame and pledge your unwaivering loyalty to the prince of lies as you trudge down the garden path.

But , will I have all the answers? Will I ever have a need to use my brain at all ? Without that I will not engage such thing , I want ultimate answers and 0 brain usage .

wtxs
05-15-2014, 10:29 AM
Exactly!!



Yup!!!

I think the problem with all this dumb-assery (technical term! haha) is that HS comes across on this forum that it's not only his WC but ALL of WC that is missing the secret sauce and that we all suck without it.


I admit , I was wrong , how can I repent for my sins , how can I be forgiven ?????????

On your knees boy!!! You must slow crawl to 1000 Taco Bells, beg for and suck down 1000 packs of their sauce!:p

kentchang
05-15-2014, 11:30 AM
Seriously? This is day 1 knowledge for any Wing Chun practitioner. :confused:

The skills developed by the training stance and actions are directly applicable. The stance itself and the shapes are not meant to be applied literally.

The fact that you're not doing Western Boxing or Kyokushin now tell me you must think you can fight standing in a SNT pose? I would love to have seen Hoffmann drop you on your ass.


Is this the same Hoffman in this link?
http://protectingrealshaolin.wordpress.com

kentchang
05-15-2014, 11:35 AM
Sorry,

The gate keeper of Emei 12 zhuang , verify and signed his name.



This story about the authentication of your "proof" at master Fu's last workshop, sounds very similar to Kenneth Lin's attempt to fabricate his black flag/5 flag Wing Chun story. Lin convinced his Sifu Tio to authenticate HKB Black Flag WC and later admitted via Sergio's video the story was all false.

The funny thing about this soap opera of Ermei 12 Zheung, both Lin and you went to ask Sergio to promote you as a legit WC researcher. My question to you is why do you choose Sergio to sing your song and promote your fabricated history of YKWC as the mother and the origin of all Wing Chun? Most people consider Sergio as nothing more than an airhead that would take anybody's story to promote his internet channel to make money. Base on the past history, nothing legit, only fabrication of history, cherry picking stories from Sergio's channel. With that kind of reputation, you still want to choose Sergio as the promoter for your own story. You should either be ashamed of yourself for taking advantage of Sergio's inexperience in WC or for thinking the rest of us so gullible.

zuti car
05-15-2014, 07:32 PM
About that gm Fu guy, doesn't he suppose to be a monk ? What kind of monk traveling the world and taking peoples money on seminars ? I think this kind of "monk" will tell you anything you want hear for proper amount of $$$.

LFJ
05-15-2014, 10:21 PM
Is this the same Hoffman in this link?
http://protectingrealshaolin.wordpress.com

Yes, I believe so, which makes it all the more hilarious. :p

anerlich
05-16-2014, 01:00 AM
What kind of monk traveling the world and taking peoples money on seminars ?

Um, the Dalai Lama?

You might be overreaching here with this generalisation about monks.

zuti car
05-16-2014, 01:40 AM
Um, the Dalai Lama?

You might be overreaching here with this generalisation about monks.

Monk is a monk, Dalai lama is not a real monk .To be honest , I cannot stand Tibetan Buddhism as much as i cannot stand Fascism but this is not proper place for political discussion

anerlich
05-16-2014, 06:02 AM
Monk is a monk, Dalai lama is not a real monk .To be honest , I cannot stand Tibetan Buddhism as much as i cannot stand Fascism but this is not proper place for political discussion

Repeat: You might be overreaching here with this generalisation about monks. How about Matthieu Ricard?

If the Dalai Lama isn't a monk, what is he?

Most monks rely on donations from the populace in any case, right up to the Pope.

The whole thread and several others on the same subject have been a political discussion, so I guess you're on the wrong forum.

I'm glad to hear you're not a Fascist. I hope your posts remain consistent with that.

Vajramusti
05-16-2014, 06:45 AM
Monk is a monk, Dalai lama is not a real monk .To be honest , I cannot stand Tibetan Buddhism as much as i cannot stand Fascism but this is not proper place for political discussion\------------------------------------


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Your definition of a "real" monk and whether you can "stand" Tibetan Buddhism is contextually irrelevant.

zuti car
05-16-2014, 06:57 AM
I know some real monks , guy who is holding seminars for money is not one . About Tibetan Buddhism , their connection to Fascism, why China really invaded Tibet , and what is the role of Tibetan monk order in all that is a matter of real historical research ,( German school of history , which is prevalent in western world today is not recommended , I suggest all available sources ).

Vajramusti
05-16-2014, 07:00 AM
I know some real monks , guy who is holding seminars for money is not one . About Tibetan Buddhism , their connection to Fascism, why China really invaded Tibet , and what is the role of Tibetan monk order in all that is a matter of real historical research ,( German school of history , which is prevalent in western world today is not recommended , I suggest all available sources ).
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Wow-a run on non sequitur-s

Paddington
05-16-2014, 08:19 AM
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Wow-a run on non sequitur-s

Booooooo, hisssss!

Were you wearing a red Fez Tarboosh hat when you penned that line?

zuti car
05-16-2014, 09:20 AM
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Wow-a run on non sequitur-s

It is always easier to make accusation than to question personal believes . I am sorry if I made anyone uncomfortable , I will not return to this matter again.

Vajramusti
05-16-2014, 09:43 AM
It is always easier to make accusation than to question personal believes . I am sorry if I made anyone uncomfortable , I will not return to this matter again.
-----------------------------------------
Appreciate your comments on wing chun.

I could be wrong -I believe that you asked about wing chun and close quarters work.

With good structure and balance IMO wing chun can be very effective
against grabbing.

FongSung
05-16-2014, 04:51 PM
-----------------------------------------
Appreciate your comments on wing chun.

I could be wrong -I believe that you asked about wing chun and close quarters work.

With good structure and balance IMO wing chun can be very effective
against grabbing.

I was told that in Guondung WC was banned for a while for this reason. The police and army trained extensively in grabbing and locking. WC exponents would go bare chested if confronted by police so they could more easily escape because if they wore stout clothes once they were grabbed it was very hard to break the grip on jackets etc.