Natural or not?

[Minghequan]

Hi all,

As I'm not a Wing Chunner, I'd like to ask your honest opinions and views on these images.

Are they sound from a "Natural" point of view? Do you think they are natural?

What's good about them?

What's bad about them?

Are they feasible in a real life fighting application?

8446

8447

[Firehawk4]

You could try these stances and poses in Ultimate Fighting and see if they work .

[LFJ]

The training stance and shapes aren't used in fighting application. That would be a terrible misinterpretation.

Natural is overrated. Speaking only for my VT, it's not a natural skill, otherwise we'd not need to train. The method goes against our natural movements, flaring the elbows and doing everything with our hands. Although unnatural, it's an intelligent and effective method. That's why we train to develop our fighting habits and reactions.

[Paddington]

Hi all,
[...]
Are they sound from a "Natural" point of view? Do you think they are natural?

What's good about them?

What's bad about them?
[...]


On the latter two questions what is the measuring stick? Wing chun as some of us know it?

I've always thought that when people say wing chun uses 'natural' positions and movements they are being a little bit disingenuous. It is usually a word used in the marketing material. Take, for example, the idea of keeping your elbow down. Yes, the elbow down position itself is a comfortable position for the body. However, for most people in their every day tasks the elbow is not down and it takes time for people to learn to keep it down.

[Kellen Bassette]

I'd like to ask your honest opinions and views on these images.

Are they sound from a "Natural" point of view? Do you think they are natural?



"Natural technique" consists of haymaker, shove, flailing hands and bear hug. This is the instinctive way untrained, (or non pressure tested) people fight.
Some martial arts refine those natural movements into proper fighting technique, others consider them poor form and abandon them.

The vast majority of all martial arts material is not "natural technique," at least from an instinctive point of view. As we all know, the efficiency of these non-natural movements varies greatly, art to art, fighter to fighter, technique to technique; and is a subject of much contention. :cool:

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Minghequan;1267902]Hi all,

As I'm not a Wing Chunner, I'd like to ask your honest opinions and views on these images.

Are they sound from a "Natural" point of view? Do you think they are natural?

What's good about them?

What's bad about them?

Are they feasible in a real life fighting application?

------------------------------------------------------------
KFO is NOT a good source of info. The pictures shown are unsound and not natural.
Natural does not mean that you just do what you feel. Right context and right motions
are important in being natural. YGKYM is not a fighting stance- it's developmental.

[Hendrik]

The training stance and shapes aren't used in fighting application. That would be a terrible misinterpretation.
.

Doesn't make any sense at all.
And
You buy that?

[Hendrik]

YGKYM is not a fighting stance- it's developmental.

What do one develop?

[Vajramusti]

What do one develop?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

On yee gee kim yeung ma--
Only Words! You don't develop it via kfo xxxx chat

Long story it would take a book; a very very short list

1. developing a coordinated and balanced body structure

2 breathing naturally- no sanchin breathing

3 fundamentals of controlled hand motions and dynamics of
the hand.

4 coordination of joints and ligaments

5 strengthening focused intent- for wing chun purposes

[HybridWarrior]

What do one develop?

Why....the horse of course!!!

:D

8448

[deejaye72]

[QUOTE]"Natural technique" consists of haymaker, shove, flailing hands and bear hug. This is the instinctive way untrained, (or non pressure tested) people fight.
Some martial arts refine those natural movements into proper fighting technique, others consider them poor form and abandon them.[QUOTE]

yeah your right, this is what some of the combatives crowd, develop. they feel that its a natural reponse, and under pressure you revert to gross motor skills.

[deejaye72]

Why....the horse of course!!!

:D

8448

hahaha! :)

[LFJ]

Doesn't make any sense at all.
And
You buy that?

Of course it doesn't make sense to you!

Buy what? You try to fight standing in SNT positions? :D

[GlennR]

Of course it doesn't make sense to you!

Buy what? You try to fight standing in SNT positions? :D

Dont laugh, yoga balls live in constant fear of Hendrick in YKJM!

[Minghequan]

Where's KPM's point of view? He posts on just about everything else I mention?

Hendrik, so you would fight and use these postures/positions in personal Life Protection?

What I am asking here is do you guys think that these postures are natural for the body, practical in terms of the positioning of the limbs, elbows, shoulders, stance etc or hare they of detriment to the body and the aim in using this in a functional life-protection manner?

[YouKnowWho]

do you guys think that these postures are natural for the body, ...

A good combat stance is a stance that you can "spring from it". If you spring from your inward horse stance, your

- right side body will try to move 45 degree to your left.
- left side body will try to move 45 degree to your right.

Your body will go to nowhere but fall down right on your face.

[KPM]

Where's KPM's point of view? He posts on just about everything else I mention?

Hendrik, so you would fight and use these postures/positions in personal Life Protection?

What I am asking here is do you guys think that these postures are natural for the body, practical in terms of the positioning of the limbs, elbows, shoulders, stance etc or hare they of detriment to the body and the aim in using this in a functional life-protection manner?

Are you asking me directly Ron? The YSKWCK Sifu in the photos you posted is from Australia. Why don't you ask him if he feels like these are "natural" postures or not? ;)

[tc101]

The training stance and shapes aren't used in fighting application. That would be a terrible misinterpretation.

Natural is overrated. Speaking only for my VT, it's not a natural skill, otherwise we'd not need to train. The method goes against our natural movements, flaring the elbows and doing everything with our hands. Although unnatural, it's an intelligent and effective method. That's why we train to develop our fighting habits and reactions.

I do not agree with your ideas or wing chun not being natural. I think any fighting method to really work must use the so called natural movement of the body. You build on that. Our body is designed to only get maximum using how it is designed to move so if you do something different you are short changing yourself. Our natural reactions or what I call hard wiring cannot ever be over written so you also build on that.

The idea that if it was natural you would not need to train is obviously wrong. Lots of martial arts take for example wrestling is very natural yet takes lots and lots of training to develop high levels of skill.

I do agree that the model or form is not the substance.

[LFJ]

I do not agree with your ideas or wing chun not being natural. I think any fighting method to really work must use the so called natural movement of the body.

Well, just look what happens to anyone when the pressure is too high. The elbows pop out and they lose structure. They revert to what's natural for them. But this isn't effective against someone with greater speed or strength, and Wing Chun is the opposite. It works with proper structure and elbow use. But it's not what people do naturally. That's not a bad thing. It just takes training to develop the skill.

In fact, what is "natural movement" in regards to fighting? I would perhaps argue that fighting each other hand-to-hand is not natural. Have archeologists found any evidence of early hunter-gatherer types attacking each other?

[Grumblegeezer]

In fact, what is "natural movement" in regards to fighting? I would perhaps argue that fighting each other hand-to-hand is not natural. Have archeologists found any evidence of early hunter-gatherer types attacking each other?

Well there's this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wstIBq2H0z8

That looks natural to me. But then I also practice Eskrima.

[deejaye72]

Well there's this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wstIBq2H0z8

That looks natural to me. But then I also practice Eskrima.

that looked natural to me!! :D

[tc101]

Well, just look what happens to anyone when the pressure is too high. The elbows pop out and they lose structure. They revert to what's natural for them. But this isn't effective against someone with greater speed or strength, and Wing Chun is the opposite. It works with proper structure and elbow use. But it's not what people do naturally. That's not a bad thing. It just takes training to develop the skill.

In fact, what is "natural movement" in regards to fighting? I would perhaps argue that fighting each other hand-to-hand is not natural. Have archeologists found any evidence of early hunter-gatherer types attacking each other?

It depends on what you are doing when the pressure goes up not just the pressure. Wrestlers go all out in competition and keep their elbows in and down.

Little kids play fight. It's natural.

Native Americans were early hunter gatherers living in Stone Age and did ok in the fighting department. Human beings are naturally aggressive and fighting has always been around. Human nature.

[tc101]

Well there's this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wstIBq2H0z8

That looks natural to me. But then I also practice Eskrima.

http://youtu.be/a7XuXi3mqYM

There are also examples of real chimps using sticks as weapons.

[LFJ]

It depends on what you are doing when the pressure goes up not just the pressure. Wrestlers go all out in competition and keep their elbows in and down.

Yeah, they aren't getting punched in the face.


Native Americans were early hunter gatherers living in Stone Age and did ok in the fighting department. Human beings are naturally aggressive and fighting has always been around. Human nature.

I was thinking more ancestral, like Neanderthal rather than modern humans. They appear to have been quite nice and caring toward one another (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/neanderthals-had-sense-of-compassion-2098270.html). There is hardly any evidence of interpersonal violence among them.

[tc101]

Yeah, they aren't getting punched in the face.


No they are not except when they go into mma and they still use their wrestling skills. :)

I think effective martial arts take natural actions that have proved effective in fighting in certain situations and then sharpen them refine them and streamline them. I find that many so called unnatural actions are unnatural because they are attempted in a different foreign situation than what the action is meant for. That's just my experience though. Maybe what you do is very unnatural.

[LFJ]

I'm mainly talking about the use of the elbow. When people are taking hard shots to the face and body their elbows pop up as they flinch, flail, and try to cover. That's a panic reaction and one that is "natural", but also what we train to override through reflex training and incremental stressing so that a more effective habit will develop and come out when we need it to.