Remind you of anything?

[chusauli]

The set beginning at 08:21, remind you of anything? Open your mind a little... just remove some White Crane-isms, imagine the set without stepping, but stationary... perhaps its juxtaposed a bit... and then it looks like... ? :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qhBEc6ZF7jY#t=535

[LFJ]

Yes, several TCMAs, particularly southern but northern arts as well. No coincidence.

[KPM]

Hey Robert!

See this thread:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67623-More-White-Crane

I pointed out exactly the same thing. You can see some of the responses I received!

[chusauli]

Although their comments are about White Crane Fist and Southern Fist in general, I am referring to the set at 08:21 on the link. The pattern is too close to be coincidence, IMO.

I've studied Southern Fist all my life, so certainly notice similarities.

But this pattern...

[PalmStriker]

Yes. Old White Crane /Master Lee Kong family set that may be the precursor to the development of WingChun Siu Lim Tao. Let's you see what some of the earliest incorporated content may have looked like, such as Fook Sao, which changes my thoughts on how techniques may have not been as soft or hard or even used in the same manner/purpose in the 1800's development of the art. Glad to see your imput on this, Sifu Chu, we may see a bigger picture unfolding. ***

Minghequan

Join Date
Jun 2006
Posts
697

RE: White Crane and Lee Kong as presented in the Vid posted ........

The last set shown has many similarities to Siu Nim Tao of the Snake Crane lineage.

Master Lee Kong confirms that this is very Old White Crane, not the same as other 5 crane styles. This set we cannot find in today's 5 White Crane lineages.

Out of respect for Master Lee Kong, I will not name this set nor say any more about it. It is a family form.

I can say that it was said that:

[PalmStriker]

:) "You like to learn and to take as much as possible. What Shing did in the video, it is very similar to your fa jin video as you do your form"

[PalmStriker]

:) After the "salute" , notice arrival of TAN SAO as presented in some of the legendary documentation of the Red Boat originators of WingChun style.

[PalmStriker]

Thanks dlcox! Quote: :) The name of the set is Shier Jie Dao Quan (Loosely translated as, 12 Joints Power Fist). It has much in common with Ba Shou Sanzhan Quan (8 Hands 3 Conflicts Fist). Both forms strike a remarkable resemblance to Tensho of Goju Ryu. The Hua Shou (Flower Hands) section of Yong Chun's (Wing Chun) Xiao Lian Tou (Siu Lin Tau) set is well represented by both of these forms. The branches of Yong Chun that have a walking method of Xiao Lian Tou will no doubt find even greater similarity. 7 Bows (7 Stars), 6 Coordination's, 12 Bridges, 5 Elements etc. all play a part. The movements and patterns of Snake and Crane are often blurred and intermingled. Snake represents energy Crane represents sinew. Together they are the representation and manifestation of Liqi or Jin. The Naga (Snake/Dragon) and the Garuda (Crane/Eagle), this union dates back to the beginning of recorded history and has a much deeper meaning than many realize. I could elaborate much, much further but think it best for anyone interested to investigate this for themselves. If you do, you just may be amazed at what you find.

[tc101]

Although their comments are about White Crane Fist and Southern Fist in general, I am referring to the set at 08:21 on the link. The pattern is too close to be coincidence, IMO.

I've studied Southern Fist all my life, so certainly notice similarities.

But this pattern...

Do you also think it a coincidence that the rest of the form does not share any similarities? Are we only counting hits and not misses? That is the Hendrik approach I thought.

[chusauli]

Do you also think it a coincidence that the rest of the form does not share any similarities? Are we only counting hits and not misses? That is the Hendrik approach I thought.

Why not just take it for what it is? :)

[Hendrik]

Why not just take it for what it is? :)

Because this is wing chun for him.
His ancestors who taught the red boat opera actors how to anti Qing!

[Hendrik]

Thanks dlcox! Quote: :) The name of the set is Shier Jie Dao Quan (Loosely translated as, 12 Joints Power Fist). It has much in common with Ba Shou Sanzhan Quan (8 Hands 3 Conflicts Fist). Both forms strike a remarkable resemblance to Tensho of Goju Ryu. The Hua Shou (Flower Hands) section of Yong Chun's (Wing Chun) Xiao Lian Tou (Siu Lin Tau) set is well represented by both of these forms. The branches of Yong Chun that have a walking method of Xiao Lian Tou will no doubt find even greater similarity



. 7 Bows (7 Stars)


, 6 Coordination's, 12 Bridges, 5 Elements etc. all play a part. The movements and patterns of Snake and Crane are often blurred and intermingled. Snake represents energy Crane represents sinew. Together they are the representation and manifestation of Liqi or Jin. The Naga (Snake/Dragon) and the Garuda (Crane/Eagle), this union dates back to the beginning of recorded history and has a much deeper meaning than many realize. I could elaborate much, much further but think it best for anyone interested to investigate this for themselves. If you do, you just may be amazed at what you find.



You must be kidding!

7 bows is a term I created in 2012 in California USA. How is that 7 Stars?

[Minghequan]

Because like everything else you have created something else already exists to describe exactly the same thing.

Thanks David.

Hendrik no matter how you try to spread it or how thin you spread it, if its Bulls#%t its always going to be Bulls#%t!

Why rename something already existing? So you can lay claim for its "inventions"

[Paddington]

You must be kidding!

7 bows is a term I created in 2012 in California USA. How is that 7 Stars?

I agree with David, you are wrong on this point across all directions but a re-naming and re-branding. As I have repeatedly stated the idea of 'bows' or major joints, that is a model of the human body, is present in a number of lineages including those over at the VTAA.

[Hendrik]

I agree with David, you are wrong on this point across all directions but a re-naming and re-branding. As I have repeatedly stated the idea of 'bows' or major joints, that is a model of the human body, is present in a number of lineages including those over at the VTAA.



7 bows has a specific meaning .

It is my creation.

Others only refer to six bows or five bows.

Not 7 bows. There is a specific reason why it is 7 not six.

7 bows is not 7 major joints.

And,
7 bows is not 7 Stars . Those are different things.


Go ahead call up all VTAA record documents since VTAA Form. See is there a seven bows term.

[Hendrik]

Because like everything else you have created something else already exsists to describe exactly the same thing.



Not the term seven bows.


Go trace the history of wck in passed 100 years. See who uses the term 7 bows beside me. And what is the definition of the seven bows means.


What is seven bows means for you?

[Hendrik]

You are using different terminology to describe the same thing. If you're not describing the same thing and you made this up, how is it Emei "technology" or even TCMA "technology"? How does it then fit in with this whole grand scheme? One that is based on Emei, but if you made it up it obviously isn't ancient "DNA" of Emei is it? Your boat is leaking Hendrik, lies cannot plug the holes. What will you do to save your ship?

So,

Please tell me what is seven bows?

I coin the seven bows term in California 2012 as a summary to make it simple for others to study emei 12 zhuang and fujian white crane mother arts.

[Hendrik]

In this Yik Kam transform ebook is the first time in the history of wck that the term seven bows were made public

It was a summary of the YKSLT basic handling. It is more then body major joints . It is a dominant handling of body mechanics
A summary to make it simple for others to study emei 12 zhuang and fujian white crane mother arts basic handling

This is the first time the feet bow were open to public. Instead of decades of unsettle argument of k1 and heel.

http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/121501202?width=1280



Today , many adapted to it, make use of it to get a good coupling. But they do not give credit to the Emei and Fujian mothers of YKSLT, instead claiming as " we have it too"



I encourage you to come out a prior art document to prove me wrong.

[Hendrik]

It is not that I care for credit, it is one needs to know what is the term means before made equivalent.

[Hendrik]

No need for me to explain it. Your diagram clearly illustrates the 7 Stars Methodolgy. Put it in any kind of wrapping you want that is what it is. The 7 Stars Methodology has long been a part of White Crane teachings, it also applies to specific footwork patterns that utilize said body dynamics and structure.

You need to bail quicker your boat is sinking.

As I put it above.

Present a prior art evidence on the term seven bows and it's definition .
Show us is 7 stars the same with seven bows?


If this is in a patent court, you have already lost.


Ps. Sorry , seven bows got nothing to do with footwork. You off again.

[KPM]

Although their comments are about White Crane Fist and Southern Fist in general, I am referring to the set at 08:21 on the link. The pattern is too close to be coincidence, IMO.

I've studied Southern Fist all my life, so certainly notice similarities.

But this pattern...

That's exactly what I was referring to as well. And you'll see my comment about the similarities seeming like more than a coincidence. But evidently some people don't see it, and the rest of us must just be only seeing it out of wishful thinking! :rolleyes:

[KPM]

Do you also think it a coincidence that the rest of the form does not share any similarities? Are we only counting hits and not misses? That is the Hendrik approach I thought.

I'll refer you to that whole long thread on TWC and HFY were I talked about similarities between groups being what suggests relationships. That's not the "Hendrik approach." That's the approach used in lots of historical and sociological research. But don't turn it into an argument here. Go back and read the other thread if you really want to know what I think.

[Hendrik]

There is no prior art evidence of the terms 7 Bows because you admittedly made up the term in 2012, just like you have made up everything else. Tidbits from here and there based on older concepts redressed in new verbage and interpretation and all packaged up nicely in a shiny new wrapper labeld "Emei Snake Gong".

I don't need to show that 7 Stars is 7 Bows you already did. I have fed you enough cheese as it is, don't look to me for any more tidbits. There are plenty of other White Crane people on this forum ask them if you don't believe me. Actually ask anyone the concept is found in many arts. You just want it to be something new when in actuality it is a very old concept.

Quick now your boat is filling up.


Empty talk.

[Minghequan]

No need for me to explain it. Your diagram clearly illustrates the 7 Stars Methodolgy. Put it in any kind of wrapping you want that is what it is. The 7 Stars Methodology has long been a part of White Crane teachings, it also applies to specific footwork patterns that utilize said body dynamics and structure.

You need to bail quicker your boat is sinking.

Thanks for that David.

The Seven Stars as you mentioned above has long been a part of Fujian White Crane. In fact within the Minghe lineage I am of their is an advanced form known specifically as "7 Splendid".

[Hendrik]

Thanks for that David.

The Seven Stars as you mentioned above has long been a part of Fujian White Crane. In fact within the Minghe lineage I am of their is an advanced form known specifically as "7 Splendid".

Simple , just post up the seven stars definition .

[tc101]

I'll refer you to that whole long thread on TWC and HFY were I talked about similarities between groups being what suggests relationships. That's not the "Hendrik approach." That's the approach used in lots of historical and sociological research. But don't turn it into an argument here. Go back and read the other thread if you really want to know what I think.

The Hendrik approach is to only count evidence that supports your agenda and ignore all the evidence to the contrary.

[tc101]

Why not just take it for what it is? :)

I am sorry but I think it is you who are suggesting it be taken for more than it is sir.

[Minghequan]

Hendrik wrote:

Simple , just post up the seven stars definition .

You'd like that wouldn't you Hendrik! Some extra information that you most likely don't have or know of. You would love to know what it means wouldn't you Hendrik ...that's why your so quick and for once, concise in asking for that information ... because you don't know it! Then you could pull and tear at it, twist and turn it until you can state here that it is "Your Concept & Understanding" .... perhaps even give it one of your trade mark monikers!

Why would or should I share with you, a person of no real consequence to White Crane (nor Wing Chun most likely) my teacher's teachings? Why would I give you information on the third most important form of the Minghe tradition? (The first being 方七娘手 Fang Qiniang Shou, the second 三戰 八仙掌 SanZhan Ba Xian Zhang Three Battles Eight Immortals Palm). Things like Flipping ~ Zhen Chi 振翅, Pushing ~ Puyiu 撲翼, Shaking ~ Dou lingyu 抖令羽，Quivering ~ Liang yu 晾羽, Extending / Wrapping ~ Chan Pi 纏脾 and Gunshen Mingjiao 滚身鳴叫 Lian huang chuang xing zhang 连环穿心掌 (Interlink Penetrate-Heart Palms) to name but a few.

Sorry Hendo old boy but why should I share anything with you? Who in the "Blue Hell" are you to me anyway? What have you really done for your art other than to cause great and most likely long lasting divisions within the many forms of Wing Chun. All you have done is muddy the waters upon which your sinking ship now descends.


Dlcox wrote:

No cheese for you little mouse! Not until you earn it, and you can start by admitting your deciet.

Exactly my little 詠春鼠标, you'll get nothing from me because you are deceitful and you fail to answer basic, simple and easily comprehensible questions put to you!

Meanwhile those of us who know will continue, secure in our knowledge and understanding and not grasping for tidbits of info to justify ourselves or our "His-Story".

[Hendrik]

You'd like that wouldn't you Hendrik! Some extra information that you most likely don't have or know of. You would love to know what it means wouldn't you Hendrik ...that's why your so quick and for once, concise in asking for that information ... because you don't know it! Then you could pull and tear at it, twist and turn it until you can state here that it is "Your Concept & Understanding" .... perhaps even give it one of your trade mark monikers!

Sorry Hendo old boy but why should I share anything with you? Who in the "Blue Hell" are you to me anyway? What have you really done for your art other than to cause great and most likely long lasting divisions within the many forms of Wing Chun. All you have done is muddy the waters upon which your sinking ship now descends.



Exactly my little 詠春鼠标, you'll get nothing from me because you are deceitful and you fail to answer basic, simple and easily comprehensible questions put to you!

Meanwhile those of us who know will continue, secure in our knowledge and understanding and not grasping for tidbits of info to justify ourselves or our "His-Story".


You are wrong.

I have post mine information with dated.
http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67634-Remind-you-of-anything&p=1268221#post1268221


Now it is your time to post your so called seven stars, to see are they the same.

Ball is in your court.




Who cares about your information, I have plenty advance information from emei and white crane the mother arts of YKSLT.

who is the guy harrassed me because I don't want to give him information, isnt that you Ron?

[Hendrik]

No cheese for you little mouse! Not until you earn it, and you can start by admitting your deciet.

Ball is in your court.

Go ahead proof

Seven stars is the term seven bows I have coined here.


http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67634-Remind-you-of-anything&p=1268221#post1268221

[Hendrik]

The following are my seven bows definition using today's language to made simple the handling force flow of the 1848 YKSLT with emei 12 zhuang and fujian white crane mother arts.

These have been shown in many of my videos and face book groups around the world.


So,

Go a head, bring up your seven stars or Any others record. To see if this has been shared this way in the past .

[Hendrik]

How difficult is to post a so called seven stars definition and compare with my seven bows description here?

[Minghequan]

Hendrik old chap, now you just seem desperate to know what I know!!! It's painfully obvious your "hanging out" to know more of the "Seven Splendid" of the Minghe tradition and lineage!!!

I'll tell you again:


"Lee Kong said you are a mouse, who likes to take things from others and that you should be ignored completely"

Why would or should I share with you, a person of no real consequence to White Crane (nor Wing Chun most likely) my teacher's teachings? Why would I give you information on the third most important form of the Minghe tradition? (The first being 方七娘手 Fang Qiniang Shou, the second 三戰 八仙掌 SanZhan Ba Xian Zhang Three Battles Eight Immortals Palm). Things like Flipping ~ Zhen Chi 振翅, Pushing ~ Puyiu 撲翼, Shaking ~ Dou lingyu 抖令羽，Quivering ~ Liang yu 晾羽, Extending / Wrapping ~ Chan Pi 纏脾 and Gunshen Mingjiao 滚身鳴叫 Lian huang chuang xing zhang 连环穿心掌 (Interlink Penetrate-Heart Palms) to name but a few.

Sorry Hendo old boy but why should I share anything with you? Who in the "Blue Hell" are you to me anyway? What have you really done for your art other than to cause great and most likely long lasting divisions within the many forms of Wing Chun. All you have done is muddy the waters upon which your sinking ship now descends.

Again Hendrik "Lee Kong said you are a mouse, who likes to take things from others and that you should be ignored completely" so why shouldn't I ignore you completely? Lee Kong says your of no consequence and that your just a "taker", a "user" and not worth the time nor energy!

Hendrik you say you answer questions. Okay lets see you answer directly these questions:

Two questions:

1/. Did Robert approve your post quoting Lee Kong?

2/. Did Lee Kong approve your post quoting him?

Remember, Lee Kong said:

"Lee Kong said you are a mouse, who likes to take things from others and that you should be ignored completely"

[Hendrik]

You post lots of writing but not answer to my question.

Where is the seven stars definition?

Too bad my friend is going to visit Gm Lee Kong soon. Disregard of your false qouting Gm Lee.



Hendrik old chap, now you just seem desperate to know what I know!!! It's painfully obvious your "hanging out" to know more of the "Seven Splendid" of the Minghe tradition and lineage!!!

I'll tell you again:


"Lee Kong said you are a mouse, who likes to take things from others and that you should be ignored completely"

Why would or should I share with you, a person of no real consequence to White Crane (nor Wing Chun most likely) my teacher's teachings? Why would I give you information on the third most important form of the Minghe tradition? (The first being 方七娘手 Fang Qiniang Shou, the second 三戰 八仙掌 SanZhan Ba Xian Zhang Three Battles Eight Immortals Palm). Things like Flipping ~ Zhen Chi 振翅, Pushing ~ Puyiu 撲翼, Shaking ~ Dou lingyu 抖令羽，Quivering ~ Liang yu 晾羽, Extending / Wrapping ~ Chan Pi 纏脾 and Gunshen Mingjiao 滚身鳴叫 Lian huang chuang xing zhang 连环穿心掌 (Interlink Penetrate-Heart Palms) to name but a few.

Sorry Hendo old boy but why should I share anything with you? Who in the "Blue Hell" are you to me anyway? What have you really done for your art other than to cause great and most likely long lasting divisions within the many forms of Wing Chun. All you have done is muddy the waters upon which your sinking ship now descends.

Again Hendrik "Lee Kong said you are a mouse, who likes to take things from others and that you should be ignored completely" so why shouldn't I ignore you completely? Lee Kong says your of no consequence and that your just a "taker", a "user" and not worth the time nor energy!

Hendrik you say you answer questions. Okay lets see you answer directly these questions:

Two questions:

1/. Did Robert approve your post quoting Lee Kong?

2/. Did Lee Kong approve your post quoting him?

Remember, Lee Kong said:

"Lee Kong said you are a mouse, who likes to take things from others and that you should be ignored completely"

[Hendrik]

Don't go off topic,

Post your seven stars definition and let others compare with my seven bows term to see is it the same as you claim.

As I says, if this is Silicon Valley patent law court, you have lost big time. Unless you can show prior art. Up to now, your based is empty but words.


You can't shows it, because there is no such seven bows combination as I have coined in the past, to explain force flow handling.

To combine the ancient emei and white crane teaching of the six major joints with feet as the seven bows is my signature of 2012.


In fact you don't even understand what is the seven bows.


Maybe so but your information is incomplete! If you have plenty of advanced information on White Crane as you say then you should have detailed information on 7 Stars. Seeing how you don't and want it put up suggests that the information you do have was cherry picked and incomplete. I will not contribute information for you to distort and decieve with. If you truely want the information then perhaps you should legitimately study under a qualified Shifu of White Crane who would be willing to impart that knowledge.

Your incomplete 7 Bows also contains snippets of another White Crane concept, San Jiao Fa. Nothing more than a mish mash of little bits of this and that cherry picked, re-worded and packaged to sell the uneducated on your version of Yong Chun history and theory.

Bail faster Hendrik, the current is taking you towards deeper waters.

[Kellen Bassette]

That's exactly what I was referring to as well. And you'll see my comment about the similarities seeming like more than a coincidence. But evidently some people don't see it, and the rest of us must just be only seeing it out of wishful thinking! :rolleyes:

Funny how the "experts" can't see such glaringly obvious similarities...no you must have some sort of agenda to state such an outrageous claim! :rolleyes:
But only the grandmaster is allowed to comment on the art, all other peons are unqualified....;)

[Minghequan]

Hendrik you just wrote:


Don't go off topic,

Okay, I won't.

Two questions:

1/. Did Robert approve your post quoting Lee Kong?

2/. Did Lee Kong approve your post quoting him?

Remember, Lee Kong said:

"Lee Kong said you are a mouse, who likes to take things from others and that you should be ignored completely"

Give my regards to 王明中

As David has said:


Maybe so but your information is incomplete! If you have plenty of advanced information on White Crane as you say then you should have detailed information on 7 Stars. Seeing how you don't and want it put up suggests that the information you do have was cherry picked and incomplete. I will not contribute information for you to distort and decieve with. If you truely want the information then perhaps you should legitimately study under a qualified Shifu of White Crane who would be willing to impart that knowledge.

Your incomplete 7 Bows also contains snippets of another White Crane concept, San Jiao Fa. Nothing more than a mish mash of little bits of this and that cherry picked, re-worded and packaged to sell the uneducated on your version of Yong Chun history and theory.

Bail faster Hendrik, the current is taking you towards deeper waters.

See Hendrik, People have worked out what you and your buddies do! I have worked our very early that you Hendrik and your mates pour through every post seeking to rip-off information and say it is their own. That is why I don't share too much. I recently posted about Minghe's "Seven Splendid" and straight away you Hendrik jumps on on the forum asking, almost demanding that I explain it .... all so you can steal it and rename it as your own!

Try Wikipedia to "cherry-pick" your info from. You'll get no such help from me you "user!"

[Hendrik]

You can't think straight don't you?






Hendrik you just wrote:



Okay, I won't.

Two questions:

1/. Did Robert approve your post quoting Lee Kong?

2/. Did Lee Kong approve your post quoting him?

Remember, Lee Kong said:

"Lee Kong said you are a mouse, who likes to take things from others and that you should be ignored completely"

Give my regards to 王明中

As David has said:



See Hendrik, People have worked out what you and your buddies do! I have worked our very early that you Hendrik and your mates pour through every post seeking to rip-off information and say it is their own. That is why I don't share too much. I recently posted about Minghe's "Seven Splendid" and straight away you Hendrik jumps on on the forum asking, almost demanding that I explain it .... all so you can steal it and rename it as your own!

Try Wikipedia to "cherry-pick" your info from. You'll get no such help from me you "user!"

[PalmStriker]

Thing about the "soft style" arts that were pre-pugilistic domination of fighting using fists, they were developed during historic times in China where the killing arts, military or otherwise were priority one. WingChun's use of fists(boxing fists) is a fairly modern pastime development, the Crane base in the video was developed without red boats or revolutionaries in mind, to borrow heavily from an existing TCMA style catalog like Southern White Crane says more for the effectiveness of this long time existing system of fighting, the developers of Wing Chun were no strangers to the form set demonstrated in the vid, fact. Some of the other techniques that are hidden in the Red Boat SLT are not part of the White Crane set in question. Some of those techniques are also hidden to the point of mere gesture or non-evident in many of today's lineage demonstrations of SLT. Fact.

[Minghequan]

You can't think straight don't you?

Hendrik, Dude! Seriously what the F#%k are you on??? What in God's good English does "You can't think straight don't you?" even mean???

If your going to try to insult me then at the very least try a bit harder than that and get your wording correct! Just another in a long line of your standard f$#k-ups and word misdirection!

Really Hendrik, I mean ...... Really??? :confused::rolleyes:

Hendrik, if you really want to get under our skin, to upset us, to finish us then simply answer the questions put to you by myself, David, Zuticar and the rest ....

It's now up to you?

[zuti car]

What he has now are insults only . His story crumbled , his lies becoming more obvious every second and he is nervous . At first ,I felt sorry for him, but now... I don't know . If he really believes in this emei bull**** , that would be really sad ,but if doesn't , that would be completely different story

[Minghequan]

Yes he is getting worried and frustrated with himself. He wants so desperately to know what David and I know about "Seven Splendid" as that shows so painfully clear in his responses .... it's something he knows he doesn't know so we wants this so badly it hurts him!

Hendrik cannot answer the questions put to him so he takes the cowards way out. He resorts to base level insults of others always trying to justify himself, his view and his existence on this forum. This is the last act of the desperate!

Hendrik knows that his views, his writings, his "His-Story" is so shot full of holes that even the holes have holes or as David puts it, his ship is sinking at a rapid rate, so fast that he has to try to use insults and twist what people have asked him instead of bailing himself out of his sinking ship with the truth!

[LFJ]

Exactly my little 詠春鼠标,

Ha! I love how you used Wing Chun mouse (computing) instead of mouse (animal), because that's more like what he does. Copy, paste, edit, save, publish! :D

[Minghequan]

This is the only source of a workout he gets!

[Daniel Fong]

Ha! I love how you used Wing Chun mouse (computing) instead of mouse (animal), because that's more like what he does. Copy, paste, edit, save, publish! :D


Exactly! Good to use Silicon Valley terms to describe what a man done in Wck from Silicon Valley.

Ron, he said he has plenty of White Crane information more than you. He is not a White Crane people, and how can he collect a lot of White Crane information. I think what he collects from others in White Crane, like the way he collects from SCWC.

How he collect the information ? Sifu Wayne yung had pointed out that he like to open a facebook group, inviting people there, discussing, asking them to show, then finally closing. Then another group is being started. Similar actions had always been done in KFO here too. The more he asks you to show, the more he can collects. Be careful guys!

[Minghequan]

Yes Hendrik is a "Computer Mouse Warrior!"

He steals from everyone that is why he was so desperate for myself and David to tell him about the "Seven Splendid" concept of White Crane!

I have seen some of his Facebook groups, all he does is ask for others to give of their knowledge then he quietly slinks away like a snake in the grass and reappears later saying that he discovered this knowledge!

Here is Davids post which describes the acts of this despicable and desperate Wannabe:


Prostitution of Wing Chun

Hendrik you and your associates are nothing more than a band of diseased self serving WH0RES who prostitute Wing Chun in an attempt to secure a legacy. You should hang your heads in shame for the disgrace you cause. Hendrik you have taken and recieved bits of information from here and there and re-wrote them to coincide with your understanding. Formulated a "new" theory based upon already exsisting and legitimate ones only to claim it as your own. Presented yourself as a humble historian all the while leading the misguided and uneducated down a path of your design. You are the soul engineer of this whole charade and have used mis-information and suggestion to propagate your understanding of Wing Chun to the ignorant. You have spoon fed and stroked the egos of of those who are willing to support your claims simply so that they can exploit the uneducated and elevate their status. For many years you haved touted this theory with the fervor of a religious zealot in the hopes that if this lie is repeated enough times it will be recieved as truth and you will be remembered in Wing Chun history as the one who revealed it's lost secret past. You have manipulated and reinterpreted ancestral documents and historical legends to suit your needs. With the deft hand of a magician you have used misdirection as a means to keep everyone from looking up your sleeve. There are a few of us left who will not let you and your associates ruin what little bit of dignity is left in Wing Chun. You and your associates have sullied the good reputation of Wing Chun with your flagrant disregard of others traditions and beliefs. You and your kind offer nothing of use to the art you only take away. Deciet and lies reveal your intentions to secure a legacy that you and your associates do not deserve. Your behavior bellies your education in the art of Wing Chun. It is clear that neither you or your associates have learned Wing Chun in any depth. This is why you go outside the art and make tenuous links to secrect skills, forgotton knowledge and lost history. You have burned bridges, urinated on tradition and spit in the faces of all the ancestors that have suffered in order to pass on their methods to the next generation with your propaganda. There is no lost aspect no missing piece as much as you may want to believe. You and anyone who supports your agenda are ignorant oppertunists who do nothing but cause confusion and dissention. You offer nothing of value to the art of Wing Chun you only degrade it.

[Paddington]

7 bows has a specific meaning .

It is my creation.

Others only refer to six bows or five bows.

Not 7 bows. There is a specific reason why it is 7 not six.

7 bows is not 7 major joints.

And,
7 bows is not 7 Stars . Those are different things.


Go ahead call up all VTAA record documents since VTAA Form. See is there a seven bows term.

What I have placed in bold evidences a contradiction. Given that you state others refer to six or five bows then how can these five or six, how they are talked about, be of your own creation? For my part I have trained through those Sifus who are members of the VTAA and I was told about these six points or bows, granted more in passing, a long time before you coined the term in 2012. You are free to believe what you like Hendrik but claiming the mantle of a creator is a little self indulgent and self aggrandizing.

I am most of the way through Vol. 8 of the Shurangama Sutra, with comments and interpretations by someone you recommended I read. It seems that you should revisit some of the lessons and wisdom held within that document and engage in introspection with respects to which demons or ghosts you are in convalescence with. I will stop short of citing specific sutras and that text beyond four of the eight guidelines.

1. A volunteer must free him/herself from the motives of personal fame and profit.
2. A volunteer must cultivate a respectful and sincere attitude free from arrogance and conceit.
3. A volunteer must refrain from aggrandizing his/her work and denigrating that of others.
4. A volunteer must not establish him/herself as the standard of correctness and suppress the work of others with his or
her fault-finding.

Hendrik I do see a lot of merit in what you have done and the work you have produced, I think it enriches the wing chun community. However, I offer up the above comments as a caution and perhaps to nudge you in a direction to understand why you receive the hostility you do and why you are in danger of achieving the opposite from what you initially set out to do.

[KPM]

Yes he is getting worried and frustrated with himself. He wants so desperately to know what David and I know about "Seven Splendid" as that shows so painfully clear in his responses .... it's something he knows he doesn't know so we wants this so badly it hurts him!

!

Now hold on a minute. Like I have said in the past...I am not necessarily in the "Hendrik Supportor" group. But I call 'em like I see 'em! You guys said that White Crane's Seven Stars was the same thing as Hendrik's Seven Bows. He said "no they are not!" You said "yes they are!" So Hendrik explained what he meant by Seven Bows and then asked you guys to explain what you meant by Seven Stars so we could all see whether they are the same thing or not. Now you guys are refusing to say what you mean by Seven Stars? That's not on Hendrik! That's on you!

[Minghequan]

And you are what to this whole thing?

Hey KPM, keep to your word. You said several times your were done with this but yet here you are ...... again!

[KPM]

And you are what to this whole thing?

Hey KPM, keep to your word. You said several times your were done with this but yet here you are ...... again!

Ron. I said I was giving up on trying to make sense out of you. Can't you even read? As far as a what this whole thing is to me....I've told you several times already. I call 'em like I see 'em. You guys demanded an explanation of Hendrik's Seven Bows and he gave it. He asked for an explanation of your Seven Stars in return for comparison so everyone here could actually see whether they are the same thing or not and you refused. Even if I didn't know Hendrik at all or what has gone on before that would strike me as a bit unfair. Simple as that!

[Minghequan]

You know you really don't mask your Hendrik agenda all that well.

Whatever Keith. I've grown tired of your dribble.

Just for you ... well, because your "special"


Prostitution of Wing Chun

Hendrik you and your associates are nothing more than a band of diseased self serving WH0RES who prostitute Wing Chun in an attempt to secure a legacy. You should hang your heads in shame for the disgrace you cause. Hendrik you have taken and recieved bits of information from here and there and re-wrote them to coincide with your understanding. Formulated a "new" theory based upon already exsisting and legitimate ones only to claim it as your own. Presented yourself as a humble historian all the while leading the misguided and uneducated down a path of your design. You are the soul engineer of this whole charade and have used mis-information and suggestion to propagate your understanding of Wing Chun to the ignorant. You have spoon fed and stroked the egos of of those who are willing to support your claims simply so that they can exploit the uneducated and elevate their status. For many years you haved touted this theory with the fervor of a religious zealot in the hopes that if this lie is repeated enough times it will be recieved as truth and you will be remembered in Wing Chun history as the one who revealed it's lost secret past. You have manipulated and reinterpreted ancestral documents and historical legends to suit your needs. With the deft hand of a magician you have used misdirection as a means to keep everyone from looking up your sleeve. There are a few of us left who will not let you and your associates ruin what little bit of dignity is left in Wing Chun. You and your associates have sullied the good reputation of Wing Chun with your flagrant disregard of others traditions and beliefs. You and your kind offer nothing of use to the art you only take away. Deciet and lies reveal your intentions to secure a legacy that you and your associates do not deserve. Your behavior bellies your education in the art of Wing Chun. It is clear that neither you or your associates have learned Wing Chun in any depth. This is why you go outside the art and make tenuous links to secrect skills, forgotton knowledge and lost history. You have burned bridges, urinated on tradition and spit in the faces of all the ancestors that have suffered in order to pass on their methods to the next generation with your propaganda. There is no lost aspect no missing piece as much as you may want to believe. You and anyone who supports your agenda are ignorant oppertunists who do nothing but cause confusion and dissention. You offer nothing of value to the art of Wing Chun you only degrade it.

Moving on ...............

[tc101]

Ron. I said I was giving up on trying to make sense out of you. Can't you even read? As far as a what this whole thing is to me....I've told you several times already. I call 'em like I see 'em. You guys demanded an explanation of Hendrik's Seven Bows and he gave it. He asked for an explanation of your Seven Stars in return for comparison so everyone here could actually see whether they are the same thing or not and you refused. Even if I didn't know Hendrik at all or what has gone on before that would strike me as a bit unfair. Simple as that!

I do not care about 7 bows or 5 or stars or any of that. It's all meaningless. Boxers and other fighters don't have any bows or stars and yet develop into very good fighters unlike the guys with the stars or bows. Doesn't that tell you something really important?

[Minghequan]

Yeah it tells me that Hendrik and KPM are hung up on this stuff and don't actually use their arts in an practical way nor would it seem have they had any real world experiences! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[KPM]

I do not care about 7 bows or 5 or stars or any of that. It's all meaningless. Boxers and other fighters don't have any bows or stars and yet develop into very good fighters unlike the guys with the stars or bows. Doesn't that tell you something really important?

If its all meaningless to you and you don't care.....then why are you reading along and posting? Ignore it.


Look, I don't do this "seven bows" or "seven stars" stuff either. At least not consciously according to Hendrik's definition of it all. But within PSWCK there is more use of the body and development of "short power" than in some other lineages of WCK and so I suspect I am already doing some of what Hendrik talks about. But I am not in the "Hendrik camp." Remember....I study PSWCK. PSWCK is San Sik based. So according to Hendrik what I am doing is "incomplete" because it does not have the SNT form, and there is no way I can ever develop any "gong" because you can't develop "gong" in San Sik training. So does it sound like I would be a big Hendrik follower? No. I don't agree with a lot of what the guy says. If anyone cares to go back and look through this forum's archives you'll see that I've gone at Hendrik in the past just as Dave and Ron are having a go at him now. Did it change anything? No. It just got my blood pressure up!

But...as I have said multiple times now in this forum...I call 'em like I see 'em. If someone is making unfair judgements and attacks on someone else, then I tend to speak up and say something. Whether the person being unfairly treated is Hendrik, or Kelly, or Robert, or Twen, or Ron. That's just me. I have a hard time just standing by and saying nothing. I have a big mouth. I admit it! :D

[tc101]

If its all meaningless to you and you don't care.....then why are you reading along and posting? Ignore it.


Look, I don't do this "seven bows" or "seven stars" stuff either. At least not consciously according to Hendrik's definition of it all. But within PSWCK there is more use of the body and development of "short power" than in some other lineages of WCK and so I suspect I am already doing some of what Hendrik talks about. But I am not in the "Hendrik camp." Remember....I study PSWCK. PSWCK is San Sik based. So according to Hendrik what I am doing is "incomplete" because it does not have the SNT form, and there is no way I can ever develop any "gong" because you can't develop "gong" in San Sik training. So does it sound like I would be a big Hendrik follower? No. I don't agree with a lot of what the guy says. If anyone cares to go back and look through this forum's archives you'll see that I've gone at Hendrik in the past just as Dave and Ron are having a go at him now. Did it change anything? No. It just got my blood pressure up!

But...as I have said multiple times now in this forum...I call 'em like I see 'em. If someone is making unfair judgements and attacks on someone else, then I tend to speak up and say something. Whether the person being unfairly treated is Hendrik, or Kelly, or Robert, or Twen, or Ron. That's just me. I have a hard time just standing by and saying nothing. I have a big mouth. I admit it! :D

No offense meant to you. I think you are being very fair in your comments. I was just trying to add to the discussion another perspective which was the regardless of whether you think Hendrik stole this idea or made it up or whatever the idea itself and the label is meaningless stuff like so much of Hendrik's stuff.

[Hendrik]

No offense meant to you. I think you are being very fair in your comments. I was just trying to add to the discussion another perspective which was the regardless of whether you think Hendrik stole this idea or made it up or whatever the idea itself and the label is meaningless stuff like so much of Hendrik's stuff.



When one doesn't have my Wck technology one accuse me of release their secret information .

When one doesn't know my Wck inheritance one accuse me late sifu is not indoor student.

When one is cluless on the force flow mechanics of Wck one accuse me on stolen or made up.


Always the same. Blame Hendrik on what one doesn't know.

[Hendrik]

It is just a simple case of

Is

The term Seven bows and feet bow are Hendrik released?

A non personal technical question, who responsible for what.



For some is obvious,
for some is very difficult to admit the facts.






What I have placed in bold evidences a contradiction. Given that you state others refer to six or five bows then how can these five or six, how they are talked about, be of your own creation? For my part I have trained through those Sifus who are members of the VTAA and I was told about these six points or bows, granted more in passing, a long time before you coined the term in 2012. You are free to believe what you like Hendrik but claiming the mantle of a creator is a little self indulgent and self aggrandizing.

I am most of the way through Vol. 8 of the Shurangama Sutra, with comments and interpretations by someone you recommended I read. It seems that you should revisit some of the lessons and wisdom held within that document and engage in introspection with respects to which demons or ghosts you are in convalescence with. I will stop short of citing specific sutras and that text beyond four of the eight guidelines.

1. A volunteer must free him/herself from the motives of personal fame and profit.
2. A volunteer must cultivate a respectful and sincere attitude free from arrogance and conceit.
3. A volunteer must refrain from aggrandizing his/her work and denigrating that of others.
4. A volunteer must not establish him/herself as the standard of correctness and suppress the work of others with his or
her fault-finding.

Hendrik I do see a lot of merit in what you have done and the work you have produced, I think it enriches the wing chun community. However, I offer up the above comments as a caution and perhaps to nudge you in a direction to understand why you receive the hostility you do and why you are in danger of achieving the opposite from what you initially set out to do.

[Hendrik]

Ron,


Stop using Gm Lee Kong for your convenient lie.


This is what Gm Lee kong's view on my Yik Kam SLT while viewing my form and Kuen kuit. With his photo too.
More details will resale as to public in the future.


http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67638-Sergio-Fujian-White-Crane-report&p=1268301#post1268301


What do you have? Beside joining the Hendrik smearing team ?


Hendrik old chap, now you just seem desperate to know what I know!!! It's painfully obvious your "hanging out" to know more of the "Seven Splendid" of the Minghe tradition and lineage!!!

I'll tell you again:


"Lee Kong said you are a mouse, who likes to take things from others and that you should be ignored completely"

Why would or should I share with you, a person of no real consequence to White Crane (nor Wing Chun most likely) my teacher's teachings? Why would I give you information on the third most important form of the Minghe tradition? (The first being 方七娘手 Fang Qiniang Shou, the second 三戰 八仙掌 SanZhan Ba Xian Zhang Three Battles Eight Immortals Palm). Things like Flipping ~ Zhen Chi 振翅, Pushing ~ Puyiu 撲翼, Shaking ~ Dou lingyu 抖令羽，Quivering ~ Liang yu 晾羽, Extending / Wrapping ~ Chan Pi 纏脾 and Gunshen Mingjiao 滚身鳴叫 Lian huang chuang xing zhang 连环穿心掌 (Interlink Penetrate-Heart Palms) to name but a few.

Sorry Hendo old boy but why should I share anything with you? Who in the "Blue Hell" are you to me anyway? What have you really done for your art other than to cause great and most likely long lasting divisions within the many forms of Wing Chun. All you have done is muddy the waters upon which your sinking ship now descends.

Again Hendrik "Lee Kong said you are a mouse, who likes to take things from others and that you should be ignored completely" so why shouldn't I ignore you completely? Lee Kong says your of no consequence and that your just a "taker", a "user" and not worth the time nor energy!

Hendrik you say you answer questions. Okay lets see you answer directly these questions:

Two questions:

1/. Did Robert approve your post quoting Lee Kong?

2/. Did Lee Kong approve your post quoting him?

Remember, Lee Kong said:

"Lee Kong said you are a mouse, who likes to take things from others and that you should be ignored completely"

[JPinAZ]

HAahahaha, this Henrik mouse is really sinking in his ship isn't he?

This is the same old thing with the mouse thief that's been going on for years - always trying to learn his kung fu from books, online, from forums, videos, etc and steal it where ever he can so he can repackage it for his made-up wing chun. And always getting caught in the same mouse trap by more and more people, going off the deep end, leaving, coming back, making new accounts, etc.


I coin the seven bows term in California 2012 as a summary to make it simple for others to study emei 12 zhuang and fujian white crane mother arts.

So, Henrik's made-up wing chun is so incomplete you have still to learn 2 other arts!! :eek: LOL, doesnt sound simple to me.
If his WC is complete, why does he have to make up stuff and learn/mix-in 2 other arts?!? And then after all of this made-up mish-mash kung fu chop suey-ery, there still isn't one single bit of proof that it helps make you a better fighter by even 1%! what a friggin clown...

[chusauli]

If its all meaningless to you and you don't care.....then why are you reading along and posting? Ignore it.


Look, I don't do this "seven bows" or "seven stars" stuff either. At least not consciously according to Hendrik's definition of it all. But within PSWCK there is more use of the body and development of "short power" than in some other lineages of WCK and so I suspect I am already doing some of what Hendrik talks about. But I am not in the "Hendrik camp." Remember....I study PSWCK. PSWCK is San Sik based. So according to Hendrik what I am doing is "incomplete" because it does not have the SNT form, and there is no way I can ever develop any "gong" because you can't develop "gong" in San Sik training. So does it sound like I would be a big Hendrik follower? No. I don't agree with a lot of what the guy says. If anyone cares to go back and look through this forum's archives you'll see that I've gone at Hendrik in the past just as Dave and Ron are having a go at him now. Did it change anything? No. It just got my blood pressure up!

But...as I have said multiple times now in this forum...I call 'em like I see 'em. If someone is making unfair judgements and attacks on someone else, then I tend to speak up and say something. Whether the person being unfairly treated is Hendrik, or Kelly, or Robert, or Twen, or Ron. That's just me. I have a hard time just standing by and saying nothing. I have a big mouth. I admit it! :D

KPM,

Just to add my opinion here.

I'll use some analogies for "Lian Gong". For anything to be of Lian Gong, it must be done for a prescribed amount of time. For example, yoga is "San Sik" and each posture must be held for at least 6 breaths (about 2 minutes). If we do 10 asanas in a practice, we have done about 40 minutes of exercise (assuming certain asanas to be bilateral).

Old Qi Gong (Nei Gong, Dao Yin, etc.) exercises like Ba Duan Jin (8 Brocade) require you to do a training of 8 reps, per set. Yi Jin Jing, some postures are held for a minute, until the set is completed, so you might have about 20 minutes of training. Yang Tai Ji Quan can be done too slowly, but as I was taught it, 1 posture was for 1 full breath (Inhale, pause, exhale, Pause through the nose.) You can do the math for 108 postures... or 37 postures, etc.

Siu Nim Tao, or the old Siu Lien Tao, is roughly one inhale or exhale per move, so therefore, for each move out, it is exhale, for each move in, would be inhale. That also defines an amount of time to "Lian Gong"...

As a Gu Lao WCK practitioner myself, how long does it take to do, for example, Duk Lung Chuie individually?

This is what Hendrik means about developing "gong" in San Sik training...

If Yoga was not done for 6 breaths to hold posture - how much benefit would it be to jump through a series of asanas?

And its not an insult, its just recognizing a method of training that a form based practice and a San Sik practice may vary.

Hope this helps.

[KPM]

Good points Robert. But the San Sik in PSWCK are not meant to be practiced with just one repetition each. When I practice them solo I will do multiple repetitions of each at various speeds before moving on to the next one. They can also be practiced as each flowing seamlessly into the next one, just like any other longer form. I pointed this out to Hendrik on multiple occasions in the past. If the SNT form as essentially multiple San Siks in sequence develops "gong", why wouldn't those same sequences broken out individually and practiced as I described not also develop "gong"? But Hendrik would hear none of that.

[Hendrik]

Good points Robert. But the San Sik in PSWCK are not meant to be practiced with just one repetition each. When I practice them solo I will do multiple repetitions of each at various speeds before moving on to the next one. They can also be practiced as each flowing seamlessly into the next one, just like any other longer form. I pointed this out to Hendrik on multiple occasions in the past. If the SNT form as essentially multiple San Siks in sequence develops "gong", why wouldn't those same sequences broken out individually and practiced as I described not also develop "gong"? But Hendrik would hear none of that.



OK , to the point technically on gong,


1, why is it one can not accept the chinese definition of sanSik is strictly means application scenario? And have to redefine SanSik ?
Such as a cup is called a plate because one likes it?

2. Have you ever seen anyone who practice sanSik enter into the level 1 of SNTgong? Or equivalent?
Not talking advance gong, just level 1of SNTgong.

[chusauli]

Good points Robert. But the San Sik in PSWCK are not meant to be practiced with just one repetition each. When I practice them solo I will do multiple repetitions of each at various speeds before moving on to the next one. They can also be practiced as each flowing seamlessly into the next one, just like any other longer form. I pointed this out to Hendrik on multiple occasions in the past. If the SNT form as essentially multiple San Siks in sequence develops "gong", why wouldn't those same sequences broken out individually and practiced as I described not also develop "gong"? But Hendrik would hear none of that.

Keith,

If you strung them together, they would be a form, and not "San Sik". The sequence allows a certain flow and timing, not quite the same as what you are saying.

Look at Hatha Yoga with individual asanas vs. Viniyasa Yoga flow sets. In the synergism of the asanas in Viniyasa, they're not quite the same as individual asanas. Its like individual herbs vs. a Rx of Herbs.

Hope this helps.

[Minghequan]

Hendrik, You post a link to a post stating that Sifu Lee Kong said this and that and a nice little photo. Great! But let's examine who you attribute that quote to ... Sergio!!!

Sergio who it has been proven beyond a doubt has made so many twists and turns in his own "Wing Chun" journey that he doesn't know if he's coming or going! Remember his Weng Chun days, his "Black Flag" is the one statements! And you Hendrik want me to believe he's telling the truth??? Good God Hendrik ... if this is the best you can come up with then your just as gullible as Sergio thinks the rest of the world is!

I'm not interested in your hearsay. What Sifu Lee Kong has said about you is straight down the line .... that my lost little buddy is something you can't refute or deny! Sifu Lee Kong is known as WuLam Iron Pen" 武林鐵筆 meaning he deals with facts not fantasy like You and Sergio!

You do know that Sergio has been trying to distance himself from you since you started posting his Youtube vids don't you? Ask why he has not posted a "True Wing Chun History Part 3".

Hendrik all you are doing is "blowing water 吹水"

Just so one such as even you can grasp this, once again.........................


"Lee Kong said you are a mouse, who likes to take things from others and that you should be ignored completely"


Originally Posted by dlcox View Post
[B][COLOR="#FF0000"]Hendrik you and your associates are nothing more than a band of diseased self serving WH0RES who prostitute Wing Chun in an attempt to secure a legacy. You should hang your heads in shame for the disgrace you cause. Hendrik you have taken and recieved bits of information from here and there and re-wrote them to coincide with your understanding. Formulated a "new" theory based upon already exsisting and legitimate ones only to claim it as your own. Presented yourself as a humble historian all the while leading the misguided and uneducated down a path of your design. You are the soul engineer of this whole charade and have used mis-information and suggestion to propagate your understanding of Wing Chun to the ignorant. You have spoon fed and stroked the egos of of those who are willing to support your claims simply so that they can exploit the uneducated and elevate their status. For many years you haved touted this theory with the fervor of a religious zealot in the hopes that if this lie is repeated enough times it will be recieved as truth and you will be remembered in Wing Chun history as the one who revealed it's lost secret past. You have manipulated and reinterpreted ancestral documents and historical legends to suit your needs. With the deft hand of a magician you have used misdirection as a means to keep everyone from looking up your sleeve. There are a few of us left who will not let you and your associates ruin what little bit of dignity is left in Wing Chun. You and your associates have sullied the good reputation of Wing Chun with your flagrant disregard of others traditions and beliefs. You and your kind offer nothing of use to the art you only take away. Deciet and lies reveal your intentions to secure a legacy that you and your associates do not deserve. Your behavior bellies your education in the art of Wing Chun. It is clear that neither you or your associates have learned Wing Chun in any depth. This is why you go outside the art and make tenuous links to secrect skills, forgotton knowledge and lost history. You have burned bridges, urinated on tradition and spit in the faces of all the ancestors that have suffered in order to pass on their methods to the next generation with your propaganda. There is no lost aspect no missing piece as much as you may want to believe. You and anyone who supports your agenda are ignorant oppertunists who do nothing but cause confusion and dissention. You offer nothing of value to the art of Wing Chun you only degrade it.

[KPM]

Keith,

If you strung them together, they would be a form, and not "San Sik". The sequence allows a certain flow and timing, not quite the same as what you are saying.

Look at Hatha Yoga with individual asanas vs. Viniyasa Yoga flow sets. In the synergism of the asanas in Viniyasa, they're not quite the same as individual asanas. Its like individual herbs vs. a Rx of Herbs.

Hope this helps.

I do see what you are saying Robert. Yet in the SLT form, each section is punctuated and separated by bringing both hands back chambered at the chest with a slight pause. How does that affect the flow and timing? To me, that seems to separate out the sections just as if you were practicing them as an individual San Sik. On the other hand, as I pointed out, in PSWCK one way to practice the San Sik is too string them together in a continuous sequence. So again, maybe I am missing something, but I still fail to see how what we do in PSWCK is any different.....how what we do is "incomplete", and how what we do does not develop any "gong."

[KPM]

1, why is it one can not accept the chinese definition of sanSik is strictly means application scenario? And have to redefine SanSik ?
Such as a cup is called a plate because one likes it?


Maybe you are right Hendrik. Maybe "San Sik" is not the proper term. Henry Mui doesn't seem to like that term. But the terminology is irrelevant. I've described how we train in PSWCK in a fair amount of detail on multiple occasions here.

[zuti car]

I do see what you are saying Robert. Yet in the SLT form, each section is punctuated and separated by bringing both hands back chambered at the chest with a slight pause. How does that affect the flow and timing? To me, that seems to separate out the sections just as if you were practicing them as an individual San Sik. On the other hand, as I pointed out, in PSWCK one way to practice the San Sik is too string them together in a continuous sequence. So again, maybe I am missing something, but I still fail to see how what we do in PSWCK is any different.....how what we do is "incomplete", and how what we do does not develop any "gong."

There is nothing wrong with your style . About gong ,depends what definition of gong you are using . If gong refers to some mystical energy that suppose to give super powers , in that case you will not develop anything , if not , you have it .

[deejaye72]

I do see what you are saying Robert. Yet in the SLT form, each section is punctuated and separated by bringing both hands back chambered at the chest with a slight pause. How does that affect the flow and timing? To me, that seems to separate out the sections just as if you were practicing them as an individual San Sik. On the other hand, as I pointed out, in PSWCK one way to practice the San Sik is too string them together in a continuous sequence. So again, maybe I am missing something, but I still fail to see how what we do in PSWCK is any different.....how what we do is "incomplete", and how what we do does not develop any "gong."



you made a good point!

[Hendrik]

I do see what you are saying Robert. Yet in the SLT form, each section is punctuated and separated by bringing both hands back chambered at the chest with a slight pause. How does that affect the flow and timing? To me, that seems to separate out the sections just as if you were practicing them as an individual San Sik. On the other hand, as I pointed out, in PSWCK one way to practice the San Sik is too string them together in a continuous sequence. So again, maybe I am missing something, but I still fail to see how what we do in PSWCK is any different.....how what we do is "incomplete", and how what we do does not develop any "gong."

It is actually very simple,

Find out what is the training which lead one into the equivalent of SNT gong level one development


That is the gong practice . Here on, call it gong, dont call it san sik because it is a wrong naming.




Gong is a conditioning set. Not a fighting scenario set. Gong set has its sequence , say there are the arms conditioning, leg conditioning, the seven bows conditioning. It is not a link of different San sik but a holistic design to go through every part of the body intended to be develop.



A simple example

from hung gar, the iron wire is gong set , not San sik . It has its design in different elements .
Not a set make up by linking fighting scenerio.


Another simple example from Chen taiji,

The reel silk set is the gong set. Not San sik, not a set make up by linking fighting scenerios.

It has its design , sequence, focus on different part of body or limbs condition and force handling , but not fighting scenerio .



Wck gong set is SNT. The reason and big deal on why the white crane and emei mother arts finding is to make sure one fulling know the design to develop Wck type of gong to support its San sik.

[Hendrik]

Gong is the biomechanics development drill which tailor to support a specific style

San sik is the fighting scenario or example of a specific style , which concern on technics and timing with an assumption of having the Gong to support its biomechanics needs.


As the famous saying

Practice Fist ( San sik) not practice Gong, when one age, one becomes an empty based.
(Because at young age one can effort brute force supporting the execution of the San sik's even if it is very in efficient use of biomechanics at old age one doesn't have that luxury )

Traditional Chinese martial art system all comes with both. Other wise it is incomplete .


It is known in ancient Chinese tradition that Gong is only taught to inner circle to purposely to control the art. Those who doesn't have the required biomechanics develop will either has low effective in their San sik or cannot operate the San sik effectively.


It is general in traditional Chinese martial art that. It is
A simple thing, if one is looking to understand how things work, however,
it will become a complex thing if one is trying to protect ones ego on an incomplete art with lots of or un ended arguements.

For example , As we can see many external Chinese martial art stylist argue with taiji people saying they have fajing too. Which every train eyes know , their biomechanics cannot deliver the type of Jin the taiji reel silk gong develop. Because the external art guys doesn't have the gong , even worse, sometimes they not aware of such biomechanics conditioning exist.



So, what is the big deal I keep bring up snake slide technology of emei? Because the advance inner art players can read gong signature. Or how the sequence of the seven bows operate. They know if one is cheating. And also, Wck needs the snake slide high acceleration short distance power to support its inner gate center line capture San sik.

One can see, as soon as one lost the high acceleration short distance power, one will not be able to play inner gate center line capture but force out. Or one cannot play zheng San . One needs the snt to develop the inner gate play power, And within snt the technology is the emei snake slide joints handling . This simple .

[Minghequan]

Hendrik wrote:

More details will resale as to public in the future.


http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...01#post1268301


What do you have? Beside joining the Hendrik smearing team ?

You wrote: "More details will RESALE as to public in the future" WTF? Is that a Freudian slip Hendrick??? "RE$ALE" to the public!

I have the truth Hendrik and you know I do hence you trying to put me down unsuccessfully.

Secondly I have White Crane Gongfu ..... you don't!

Hendrik can Sergio and Sunny CERTIFY the claims that they have attributed to Sifu Lee Kong??? I mean real and factual claims not some stunt photo???

By this I don't mean "Sunny told me that Sergio told me that Sifu Lee Kong said" Rubbish! I mean the actual real and verifiable Facts!

I ask this of you now Hendrik and I await your reply!!!

[Minghequan]

Again for all to see ...............


Originally Posted by dlcox View Post
[B][COLOR="#FF0000"]Hendrik you and your associates are nothing more than a band of diseased self serving WH0RES who prostitute Wing Chun in an attempt to secure a legacy. You should hang your heads in shame for the disgrace you cause. Hendrik you have taken and recieved bits of information from here and there and re-wrote them to coincide with your understanding. Formulated a "new" theory based upon already exsisting and legitimate ones only to claim it as your own. Presented yourself as a humble historian all the while leading the misguided and uneducated down a path of your design. You are the soul engineer of this whole charade and have used mis-information and suggestion to propagate your understanding of Wing Chun to the ignorant. You have spoon fed and stroked the egos of of those who are willing to support your claims simply so that they can exploit the uneducated and elevate their status. For many years you haved touted this theory with the fervor of a religious zealot in the hopes that if this lie is repeated enough times it will be recieved as truth and you will be remembered in Wing Chun history as the one who revealed it's lost secret past. You have manipulated and reinterpreted ancestral documents and historical legends to suit your needs. With the deft hand of a magician you have used misdirection as a means to keep everyone from looking up your sleeve. There are a few of us left who will not let you and your associates ruin what little bit of dignity is left in Wing Chun. You and your associates have sullied the good reputation of Wing Chun with your flagrant disregard of others traditions and beliefs. You and your kind offer nothing of use to the art you only take away. Deciet and lies reveal your intentions to secure a legacy that you and your associates do not deserve. Your behavior bellies your education in the art of Wing Chun. It is clear that neither you or your associates have learned Wing Chun in any depth. This is why you go outside the art and make tenuous links to secrect skills, forgotton knowledge and lost history. You have burned bridges, urinated on tradition and spit in the faces of all the ancestors that have suffered in order to pass on their methods to the next generation with your propaganda. There is no lost aspect no missing piece as much as you may want to believe. You and anyone who supports your agenda are ignorant oppertunists who do nothing but cause confusion and dissention. You offer nothing of value to the art of Wing Chun you only degrade it.

[KPM]

Wck gong set is SNT. The reason and big deal on why the white crane and emei mother arts finding is to make sure one fulling know the design to develop Wck type of gong to support its San sik.

So Hendrik, are you saying that Leung Jan didn't know about gong development when he retired to Ku Lo village and chose to teach Wing Chun in the format he did (whether you call it San Sik or not) rather than teach the SNT form as a whole?

[Vajramusti]

So Hendrik, are you saying that Leung Jan didn't know about gong development when he retired to Ku Lo village and chose to teach Wing Chun in the format he did (whether you call it San Sik or not) rather than teach the SNT form as a whole?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not think that Hendrik said anything about Dr. Leung Jan not knowing about gong development.
His comments were limited to the meaning of san sik and that san sik and gong development are
not the same thing.

[KPM]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I do not think that Hendrik said anything about Dr. Leung Jan not knowing about gong development.
His comments were limited to the meaning of san sik and that san sik and gong development are
not the same thing.

He may not have said it. But that is the clear implication. But he won't admit to that either. He has said that PSWCK is incomplete because it does not train the full SNT form. He has said that without the full SNT form one cannot develop gong. Leung Jan did not teach the full SNT form when he retired to Ku Lo village. But he did teach Wing Chun! So...... what are we left to conclude by Hendrik's reasoning? Hendrik is suggesting that what Leung Jan taught when he retired to Ku Lo is incomplete and lacks in any gong training. Do you reach a different conclusion Joy?

[Hendrik]

He may not have said it. But that is the clear implication. But he won't admit to that either. He has said that PSWCK is incomplete because it does not train the full SNT form. He has said that without the full SNT form one cannot develop gong. Leung Jan did not teach the full SNT form when he retired to Ku Lo village. But he did teach Wing Chun! So...... what are we left to conclude by Hendrik's reasoning? Hendrik is suggesting that what Leung Jan taught when he retired to Ku Lo is incomplete and lacks in any gong training. Do you reach a different conclusion Joy?

I don't imply I tell you straight .

I have been asking you to visit Jim Rosalendo who has the system to see the kulo system.

Why guessing?

Also, argue is not going to make a incomplete sysyem complete. And purposely discount it is not going to make a complete system in complete.

[Minghequan]

Hendrik:

I don't imply I tell you straight .


Both me and Sifu Sunny So have been training White Crane intensively and it's curriculum is now with the agreement of GM Lee Kong an official part of the IWKA technician and master programms.

Fact: At no time does Sifu Lee Kong ENDORSE Sergio's Wing Chun nor Sergio's IWKA for teaching Sifu Lee Kong's White Crane as Sergio (and you Hendrik by posting it here) falsely implied in the post here!!! That is hardly the act or words of the honourable!!!

after disrespectfully using Sifu Lee Kong's name you post the following statement by Sergio:


Stated by Sergio & Posted here by Hendrik ( * Still trying to use Sifu Lee Kong's name for their political agenda ... have you guys no honour!!!)

the last thing we want is to drag respectable grandmasters like GM FU of Emei or GM Lee Kong of Fujian White Crane into a political issue.

Really Hendrik??? Then why are you and Sergio continuing to attempt to using your own words "drag respectable grandmasters like GM FU of Emei or GM Lee Kong of Fujian White Crane into a political issue":confused:

Even now you continue to use Sifu Lee Kong's name well after Sifu Lee Kong himself has totally refuted your use of him in connection to your agenda!

Hendrik I put it to you plainly, clearly and factually ... have you no honor? have you no respect for Sifu Lee Kong? Have you no self-respect?

So in keeping with your mate Sergio's post, you Hendrick should apologise on a public level to Sifu Lee Kong for using his name for your political agenda.

Again Hendrik:


Remember, Lee Kong said:

"Lee Kong said you are a mouse, who likes to take things from others

[KPM]

I don't imply I tell you straight .

Tell me what straight? So are you saying "straight" that Leung Jan taught an incomplete system in Ku Lo village and didn't transmit any "gong" training?

I have been asking you to visit Jim Rosalendo who has the system to see the kulo system.

And I have told you that I have and do study the Ku Lo system. You haven't. You don't seem to actually know much about it. We established that here already in the past threads. Jim was actually the one that pointed that out.

Why guessing?

Guessing about what? You aren't making any sense.

Also, argue is not going to make a incomplete sysyem complete. .

So you ARE saying Pin Sun Ku Lo Wing Chun is incomplete because it does not do the SNT form as a whole. You are saying that Leung Jan taught an incomplete system, meaning substandard, not good.

And purposely discount it is not going to make a complete system in complete

And just what the heck does that mean???

You still have not explained how the Yip Man or Yuen Kay Shan SNT form develops "gong"....even though each section is separated from the others and punctuated by drawing both hands back to the chest with a brief pause....any differently than if the same sections were broken out and practiced individually. Robert has mentioned the flow and transition between sections. But again, there is a brief pause as you return to "neutral" with the fists at the chest. So I am not seeing how there is any meaningful flow or transition there.

And you haven't demonstrated what this special "gong" you are referring to brings to the mix. People have asked you multiple times. Does it make one a better fighter? Does it make your Wing Chun more effective?

And while we are at it, Zuti was asking a very simple and legitimate question. Why can't you tell him which museum holds that Emei book that you have referred to so often? I doubt Jim will be crushed if you mention this before he does. It is a legitimate question.

I have been with you speaking out against unfair attacks and an obvious smear campaign. But you are starting to "push my buttons" again as well.

[zuti car]

I don't imply I tell you straight .

And you haven't demonstrated what this special "gong" you are referring to brings to the mix. People have asked you multiple times. Does it make one a better fighter? Does it make your Wing Chun more effective?

And while we are at it, Zuti was asking a very simple and legitimate question. Why can't you tell him which museum holds that Emei book that you have referred to so often? I doubt Jim will be crushed if you mention this before he does. It is a legitimate question.
l.

There isn't any special "gong" , he just want to be important , to let people believe he posses some kind of "secret" , "special" knowledge . Every time he was asked about it , he would not answer or give typical cult like response ,"if one don't experience it , one will not know " .
About the book. He would be happy to give the answer , if he had it , but he doesn't know . The fact is , such a book does not exist ,but he doesn't want to admit that because his whole construction will crumble (it is going down even without that ) . I wouldn't pay too much attention on what he is saying about other styles , he obviously never practiced anything beyond his Yik Kam's style and even that is questionable , how much he really knows , and did he ever practiced anything seriously .

[TenTigers]

not to derail the cat fight..but in answer to the original query, My first thought was Tensho.
I didn't post, because I thought maybe it was too shallow...but after wading through the last several pages, I guess it's alright after all.:p

[Minghequan]

Finally and courtesy of Hendrik/Sergio Enterprises comes the most telling secret of all!!!

Hendrik & Sergio's Secret Hand positioning from their Siu Nim Tao finally revealed here for the very first time for all to see!!!

8489

[zuti car]

Finally and courtesy of Hendrik/Sergio Enterprises comes the most telling secret of all!!!

Hendrik & Sergio's Secret Hand positioning from their Siu Nim Tao finally revealed here for the very first time for all to see!!!

8489

Good one , that is their basic hand position

[Minghequan]

Yeah ... how could we mere mortals not seen this wonderful far-reaching Hendrick/Sergio Wing Chun Secret before now? Have we really been that blind?:eek:

8492

[Daniel Fong]

Ha! I love how you used Wing Chun mouse (computing) instead of mouse (animal), because that's more like what he does. Copy, paste, edit, save, publish! :D

Wow! In WCK history, there is a new term 'Wing Chun Mouse' created.

A good example here. Borrow, paste, edit, save, publish.

8503

[Hendrik]

Get the full system and things will be clear for you.





I don't imply I tell you straight .

Tell me what straight? So are you saying "straight" that Leung Jan taught an incomplete system in Ku Lo village and didn't transmit any "gong" training?

I have been asking you to visit Jim Rosalendo who has the system to see the kulo system.

And I have told you that I have and do study the Ku Lo system. You haven't. You don't seem to actually know much about it. We established that here already in the past threads. Jim was actually the one that pointed that out.

Why guessing?

Guessing about what? You aren't making any sense.

Also, argue is not going to make a incomplete sysyem complete. .

So you ARE saying Pin Sun Ku Lo Wing Chun is incomplete because it does not do the SNT form as a whole. You are saying that Leung Jan taught an incomplete system, meaning substandard, not good.

And purposely discount it is not going to make a complete system in complete

And just what the heck does that mean???

You still have not explained how the Yip Man or Yuen Kay Shan SNT form develops "gong"....even though each section is separated from the others and punctuated by drawing both hands back to the chest with a brief pause....any differently than if the same sections were broken out and practiced individually. Robert has mentioned the flow and transition between sections. But again, there is a brief pause as you return to "neutral" with the fists at the chest. So I am not seeing how there is any meaningful flow or transition there.

And you haven't demonstrated what this special "gong" you are referring to brings to the mix. People have asked you multiple times. Does it make one a better fighter? Does it make your Wing Chun more effective?

And while we are at it, Zuti was asking a very simple and legitimate question. Why can't you tell him which museum holds that Emei book that you have referred to so often? I doubt Jim will be crushed if you mention this before he does. It is a legitimate question.

I have been with you speaking out against unfair attacks and an obvious smear campaign. But you are starting to "push my buttons" again as well.

[KPM]

Get the full system and things will be clear for you.

Which "full system" are you referring to?

[zuti car]

Get the full system and things will be clear for you.

I can teach you full system and you don't have to pay much

[Minghequan]

Which "full system" are you referring to?

Wow a question of Hendrik by KPM!!!

Hendrik's and Sergio's Full System of course as no other mere mortal has it!