Wing Chun instructor wants me to teach him ground fighting

[KnightSabre]

A wing chun instructor came into my school last night and said that he would like to learn groundfighting.

I said thats great and then proceded to take him through the basics.
He kept interrupting me saying that I must teach him more advanced techniques.
He also said that grappling only works in the ring.
Almost every position I showed him he would say this or that is wrong with it.
I don't think I'm going to train him anymore.
what do you guys think?
If he thinks that groundfighting is so useless why does he want to learn it

It's the same if a Tae Kwon Do guy walks into a praying mantis school and says I wanna learn your style but as soon as you start teaching him he just tells you how weak your stances are etc.

He's been doing wing chun for 10 years.
He has his own school and told me he has 150 students.
On the back window of his car in white is written WingTsun Kung Fu and his telephone number.

"You're Good Kid Real Good,But As Long As I'm Arround You'll Always Be Second Best See".

[Sharky]

Don't listen to anything watchman says, he's just teasing.

=================================
What we really need is chicks with a whole new kinda orifice - Fish

Sharky, I should expect this level of immaturity from you after seeing your post titled "Hm." regarding the woman that lives next door to you. I think everyone who unfortuneatly read that post is a bit more ignorant now for doing so. - Spectre

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Repulsive Monkey]

Without being rude t him I would ask him why he wants to learn groundwork from you and is he serious about the actual learning bit. IT seems like he may be picking holes in everyhting you do because his seriousness for being a student to you is not that legitimate.

[Sharky]

Doesn't surprise me though. Most wing chun people i've met are real *******s.

Yes, i do wing chun.

=================================
What we really need is chicks with a whole new kinda orifice - Fish

Sharky, I should expect this level of immaturity from you after seeing your post titled "Hm." regarding the woman that lives next door to you. I think everyone who unfortuneatly read that post is a bit more ignorant now for doing so. - Spectre

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.

[Merryprankster]

Knight, try this:

Say "look, it's obvious to me, from what you are saying, that you don't believe grappling is effective in a real fight. I don't want to teach somebody who doesn't think this stuff will work. I propose we spar, full contact, using headgear. This is as close as we can come to an actual one on one fight with a reasonably minimum risk of injury. I've done Muay Thai, so I am used to taking shots to the leg and knee area, so they are fair game. We will do this as many times as you feel necessary. If you still are not convinced that this stuff has its place, then we can go our seperate ways."

How's that?

[KnightSabre]

Prankster...I hear you.
It's a good idea,the only thing is I didn't want to turn it into a this style is better argument.
Also I don't want my students to think that I'm arrogant and egotistical by challenging him in front of everyone.

"You're Good Kid Real Good,But As Long As I'm Arround You'll Always Be Second Best See".

[Merryprankster]

Don't do it in front of everyone then. Arrange a private lesson. Tell him it's part of a package deal. One free private!

Alternately, you can say "ok everyone, today we're sparring full contact with headgear." Make it part of the class. Make sure you go with him enough so he gets the idea.

The only way it becomes style vs style is if HE makes it that way. Don't get sucked into saying one is better than the other. Just point out that it has its applications, if for no other reason, than getting off the ground faster.

[Dave Farmer]

If you go to someone for advice and start opening up your mouth, you have no class.

I train with other martial artists regularly, but we make comparisons and work without 'critique', a sort of 'pool of experience'.

Just give the guy a slap or 2.

If some one came to my class and picked fault with my teaching, he's going to have to put it on the line.

Regards

Dave F

'wing chun men do it with sticky hands'

[shaolinboxer]

It seems to me that he does not want to learn ground fighting. Rather, his goal is to be able to say to his students that question him "yeah, I've done ground fighting and my technique is superior".

Becareful sparring him, his quest for superiority (if I am correct) may make him go a bit to far.

[KnightSabre]

Prankster,I think I will do just that.

What bothers me is that he wants to learn groundfighting and then teach it at his school.He won't tell them where he learnt it or give the style any credit.His students will think they are learning ground wing chun.

"You're Good Kid Real Good,But As Long As I'm Arround You'll Always Be Second Best See".

[JWTAYLOR]

He wants to teach BJJ. That's the reason he wants you to show him advanced techniqeus. He just wants to use it as a money maker.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[KnightSabre]

It happenned to me before.
This guy had a black belt in Ninjitsu and had about 1 or 2 years in Judo.

Well everytime I would show a technique to the class he would have this smirk on his face.
Then when I had them drill the techs with a partner I would see him teaching them variations that "worked better".

He was also very agressive when he grappled my begginers and would try to hurt them.He was quite a big chap +- 210 and would be especialy rough with the smaller guys.

On saturdays we have an open grappling class where we roll for about an hour,no techs are taught we just roll.
Anywayz he rocked up and started rolling with one of my beggineres who weighs about 132.He was dominating the little guy and made a point to look at me everytime he got him in a hold.

I was getting cross,I have a long fuse and am not agressive.
The time came for us to grapple,immediately I could see in his eyes that he was gonna "go" for me,this just made me even more cross.
As soon as we started he came at me full force,I redirected his force and took side control,went to 69/north south and then to mount.
I din't even attempt to tap him but just put alot of pressure on him.He tried everything to get me off but couldn't.Eventually he started complaining that his leg was cramping and I got off him.I never saw that guy again.

"You're Good Kid Real Good,But As Long As I'm Arround You'll Always Be Second Best See".

[Rolling Elbow]

Yes i guess we like wing chunners can be a pain in the ass sometimes too... :)

What have I learned? Never box a boxer, never grapple a grappler. If this guy wants to learn grappling then tell him to allow himself to be taught. We've had people come to us wanting to learn "just" this or that rather than start from the ground up..such people will waste your and your students time. Who cares about what he says he wants to learn because he obviously is not interested in learning it right.

Tell him to hit the road...

On a side note, i went out with some pals the other day and one of my friends brought along this gold sash wing chunner...super nice guy BUT really loud and drew allot of attention to himself. What is with Wing Chun and the cockiness? Man, when I go out I am super low key....ninja tricks or just common sense?

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

[Tainan Mantis]

KnightSabre,
I can see where you are coming from. Teaching in Taiwan I don't often have complete beginners join the class.
The first point that the expert student has to understand is that they are here to learn not to impress the teacher or spout their own point of view. Here the types of quotes I use, maybe they'll stimulate your creative juices.

"Oh , you want to learn the advanced techniques? First learn these basics so you can practice with the beginners to help them improve."

"You think it is only for the ring? I Actually used this in a real fight and do you know what happened?"
"What?"
"I'll tell you later, this is workout time not story time."

"This is the real (insert your styles name). So don't be going back to your WC school and saying this is WC ground fighting"

[Water Dragon]

Rolling Elbow, it appears as if Ashida has taught you well.

[BeiKongHui]

My experience has been that the more sh.t a WC guy talks the less experience he has. Too many fall into the trap of never realistically testing their skills (only Chi Saoing instead) so they become egotistical. I would just tell him to look else where for training unless he's willing to empty his cup. I train first & foremost WC but I do other stuff as well and no matter what I think of what I'm being taught I keep my mouth closed out of respect for the instructor just like any student should.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

[Rolling Elbow]

Ashida is indeed the darkest of all masters and the one I have sworn an allegiance to. For the dragon rests within and the beasts emerges only when daunted by over confident frat boys or Kung Fu Forum bullies!

Hatsumi MUST be a fraud because Ashida taught me the REAL stuff.! :cool:

p.s- anyone want to fight me for 30,000$? You pay it of course..i just show up with a mask on.

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

[Water Dragon]

LOL. and much respect to the Bujinkan.

[MaFuYee]

k-night,

what if the wc guy is right?
what if all the stuff you are showing, is all 'ka-ka'?

nahhhh.... couldn't be...

could it?

ohmygod! - maybe you too, should go and bow before the shrine to emin boztepe... (no, the other way.)

- neque mibi quisquam Judaeorum fabulas objiciat.

[Merryprankster]

You're kidding Ma Fu Ye, right?

[Ryu]

Knightsabre,

That's annoying. I've had the same kind of thing happen to me in a BJJ dojo (though I'm not a teacher) Some martial artist came in with his female manager or something! :confused: and began going all out with students. He actually asked me before we sparred if he could attack my eyes! LOL
When we fought, he just went crazy, I took my time, got him in a crossbody pin, then mounted him. He ran out of gas and said "I'm too tired to continue..." so I let him up. :)

I'd say that if you want to spar with him go ahead and do it. However becareful of him trying to seriously hurt you. It's never good when one wants to spar and the other wants to "fight".
You've got to be ready for that.
If you don't want to fight, (I probably would not fight him) just tell him that you don't think he really wants to learn it, and he should go elsewhere because he hasn't even mastered the basics.

If he teaches it to his students, .....well all that goes around comes around.

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[tnwingtsun]

Ask him to show you his Wingtsun passport,that will show you what level he is,150 students?
If he's a Tech.level he must be having a big brain **** coming to your place(or any ground fighting school).
I could see a low level student grade wandering
into a ground fighting school to see a compairison
to what he's being taught,but a tech level??


Weird,ask him for his WT papers(passport)


"If you haven't got a plan, you're part of somebody else's plan"

[Shaolindynasty]

It's your school right? If he starts manhandleing your students and being disrespectful tell him to get out. School owners tend to let people get away with things that they shouldn't cause they need the $$ to pay rent. Just think if your other students don't want this guy treating them like crap they will quit and that will cost you more $$. A dojo or kwoon is a place of learning and brotherhood so if he keeps it up I say cut his @ss loose.


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[Excession]

One wouldn't expect that type of behaviour from a beginner much less an instructor, so it doesn't sound like he wants to learn anything.

Surely he should have enough respect to trust your teaching techniques and sufficient tact to politely query your style? Especially considering how gracious you were in agreeing to instruct him.

I'm impressed you haven't sent him on his way already, very understanding of you!But my humble opinion would be to distance yourself from him... quickly.

[PaleDragon]

that if he knows so much about groundfighting(your styles' weaknesses etc.) to just go teach it himself. Or ask him why a WC master like himself needs to know groundfighting...i hear they even sleep standing up. Actually nevermind my rambling, it just upsets me someone would act like that. When i go to crosstrain in groundfighting(couple years from now) I will make sure to be much more respectful.

[gazza99]

Tell him, he will learn it your way without question or he wont learn at all. We all need to realize if we start another art no matter our prior experiance we should start from scratch and not question the instructor, once we have learned quite a bit, then we can adapt it as we see fit. But if its not to your liking you shouldnt begin it in the first place.

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[fightfan]

If he gets rowdy with the beginners feed him to the advanced students every day!
He'll eventually get tired of getting tossed like a little girl and eventually hell want to learn how he gets schooled every day!
At my school it happens often. We get "tough guys" that want to prove something and they are the ones that usually never come back.

[Knifefighter]

================================================
what if the wc guy is right?
what if all the stuff you are showing, is all 'ka-ka'?
==================================================

There's always the chance that that is true. Nobody has the exclusive rights to what works. You never know what someone else has. That is why KnightSabreshould mix it up with him… in front of the students (ask him to bring some of his students also). Whatever rules he wants. If the wing chun guy is right, KnightSabre and his students can learn from the guy. If not, KnightSabre will probably get some new students, as some of the wing chun guy's students will probably sign up. Additionally, KnightSabre's students will have the chance to see how effective the stuff they are learning is. Students love to see that kind of stuff.

[Xebsball]

Tell him to empty the **** cup for gods sake!!!!

----------------------------
Friday evening / The blood still on my hands
To think that she would leave me now / For that ungrateful man

Sole survivor / No witness to the crime
I must act fast to cover up / I think that there's still time

He'd seem hopeless and lost with this note / They'll buy into the words that I wrote

"This feeling inside me
Finally found my love, I've finally broke free
No longer torn in two
I'd take my own life before losing you"

[Kung Lek]

xebsball, that was your satan post! ahhhhhhh,

Knightsabre quit trolling us with your stories ;)

hahahahahaha

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[rubthebuddha]

does anyone here disagree with the notion that anyone who walks into a school claiming intent to learn what the teacher has to say but behaves like this wing chun guy is a jacka**?

personally, i'd avoid the whole idea of having him come in on you to teach him a lesson. it's probably going to set up a challenge atmosphere and i would agree with the earlier mention that it can easily get out of hand, especially with someone who has shown this much arrogance. you may be of the mindset of showing for his own benefit, but he may be of the mindset, or have his quickly turn into one, of competition.

honestly, you're the boss. it's your decision as to what you want to teach, and what someone who doesn't know as much as you thinks is right isn't important, especially when that opinion comes more from arrogance than anything.

one quick question: do you pay respects to your instructors at the beginning and end of classes? i'd guess so, and by the same token, so should he, so forget this "not going to tell where he learned it" garbage and either set him straight or boot his bum to the curb.

there. now i'm two cents poorer. hope it was worth it. ;)

-rtb

[Wongsifu]

the way i see it is wing chun has this clause in it that states siu lim tao cultivates the ego not the energy. Ive never met a wing chunner in real life who doesnt think that he is gods gift to kung fu, except for one guy and he doesnt do wing chun anymore, i think that the guy has come simply like jwt says to say hmmm wing chun is street effective , yours works only in the ring , and so he can go back to his students to say , i kicked his ass.

My 5 cents is , let him join the class and put him with your best student and tell your no1 to give him a hard time, see how long the guy lasts. to put a bit more pressure on those arm locks , sit on him a bit harder in the mount (if thats what its called)
etc etc

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

[rubthebuddha]

i'm not sure if you guys mind me getting too far afield here, but i'll comment on wongsifu's last postie:

wing chun was originally designed as a way to maximize efficiency in combat while minimizing risk. the story goes that yim wing chun caught the eye of a rather stout village bully, was taught to fight by ng mui, and defeated the bully and sent him packing.

true or not, the basis for an attitude of efficiency and practicality is instilled early on. students are taught the effectiveness of techniques, and the logic behind them, very early on.

this can go a few ways -- students can realize this and just practice their bums off, or they can adopt an aura of superiority. the bad thing? most students never truly test themselves. now if you've never been clocked by a good elbow or sent home limping by a good roundkick, you may not have learned the lessons of humility learned by many teachers.

that's some of my take, and i know that it's an attitude that students of any style can adopt. it's sad, but it's life. :(

-rtb

[rubthebuddha]

that's not a rip on wing chun. happily, i study one flavor of it (WT) and i will probably until my arms fall off (then i'll learn sticky shoulders to replace my chi sau). but i wanted to share a perspective that i thought might offer some insight.

as far as the arrogance? i think it's despicable and contrary to what we're supposed to be striving for.

-rtb

[NorthernMantis]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> He also said that grappling only works in the ring.
Almost every position I showed him he would say this or that is wrong with it.
[/quote]

Now you know how it is when a wiseguy [insert system here] stylist comes into anyones school under the guise of learning something.

http://www.channel1.com/users/wahlum/wahlum.gif

"Always be ready"

"right, that's it!you've insulted me, and you've insulted the shaolin temple!"-Fish of Furry

[jimmy23]

well, you just need to spar or roll with the guy. And, Ive seen the "Im tired " excuse before, Do NOT let them quit at this point, or let them up, tell the fool (and its true) that youve got to get in "grappling shape", and make em keep going. Dominate him, hand him his a$$, because if you dont he s going to go back to his school and tell them he whooped you.

Seriously, if hes a jerk (and it seems he is), do him a favor and teach him humility


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[old jong]

The guy had a really bad attitude and do not deserve to be teached anything. Once,a tai-chi guy asked me to teach him some wing chun. He had the same problem...Everything he knew was better than what I tried to teach him! He wanted to jump in the advanced stuff right away! I told him to forget it because he could not learn anything if he thought he knew everything already. Where is the humility martial arts are supposed to teach ?...Hard to find these days.

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[KnightSabre]

Thanks for all the posts guys.

Last night I told my instructor about the guy.
He told me that this guy had also been at his school and he overheard him speaking to one of my senior class mates.The guy was saying that ground fighting is innefective in a real fight and that Emin Boztepe's Wing Tsun style is anti grappling.
The senior then asked him why he was training with us then.
My instructor then decided to do free grappling the entire lesson and manhandled the guy,he must have tapped him out painfully about 30 times.
Obviously the guy didn't come back and now he's at my school.

My instructor is different to me in that he doesn't take any nonsence and has a far more direct approach in his teaching and attitude.

My school has only been open since March so I'm still learning as I go along.

If he comes again tonight I'm gonna tell him that he must look elsewhere for instruction.

"You're Good Kid Real Good,But As Long As I'm Arround You'll Always Be Second Best See".

[fightfan]

Jimmy23, I couldnt agree with you more!

Old Jong, " I told him to forget it because he could not learn anything if he thought he knew everything already."
You are very wise! You mind If I use that one someday?=)

Knightsabre, refer him back to your instructor for further beatings! Good luck man!

[Ryu]

Sounds like the best thing, KnightSabre.
Good luck! :)

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[Merryprankster]

Oh, c'mon!

At least get some pleasure out of it... have him worked over first by one of your less experienced students. :D

[Sam Wiley]

I tend to agree with Knifefighter on this one. But I say you tap him a couple of times and then choke him out for good measure, all in front of his students and yours both. What a jerk. Maybe if you send him away with a limp, just like your teacher, he'll finally learn some manners. If he's going to learn anything from your art, it's going to have to be some manners first, with a healthy dose of humility thrown in for good measure. Otherwise, he's not going to learn anything.

*********

[Nichiren]

Quote: The guy was saying that ground fighting is innefective in a real fight and that Emin Boztepe's Wing Tsun style is anti grappling.

Thats funny because the Boztepe anti grappling uses fundamental BJJ groundwork; mount, side mount, guard positioning, usage of feet, elbows and knees etc. They punch instead of applying locks. :rolleyes:

[Ryu]

Nicheren, what's the significance of your screen name?? :)

Are you a Nicheren Buddhist?

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[fmann]

Just to clarify WT, there are several effective WT "anti-grapplers" out there -- mostly people who trained for real in grappling and integrated alot of it in to the WT curriculum by breaking it down to the basic principles. Anti-grappling merely means being able to defend yourself on the ground against holds, armbars, etc. and turning the tides to get back up in to stand-up fighting. This by definition requires real grappling experience and rolling on mats.

The fact is that once you're past a basic level, most styles whether it be grappling or stand-up fighting share many of the same principles.

This guy obviously is too low a level of WT to really appreciate the truth in martial arts.

[NorthernMantis]

Hey KnightSabre if you think this is bad wait till the weirdos come to your school and try to make a name for themseves by

a)Claiming that they know more than you and that you're a fake

b)Mix it with some style and call it a goofy name

c)Use you to give them a more creditable rep than they have and/or deserve


d)Make an underground super secret society of deadly of Native Ameriva sambo jitsu ninjas that only fight in astral space
:D

"Always be ready"

"right, that's it!you've insulted me, and you've insulted the shaolin temple!"-Fish of Furry

[This message was edited by NorthernMantis on 11-22-01 at 11:17 AM.]

[Ralek]

Knight Sabre. Don't be a puss y. Put him unconcious. Mount him then start beotch slapping him. Video tape it and make hundreds of copies and distribute them throughout Africa.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

[rubthebuddha]

a little bit about boztepe's stuff (which is just basic WT theory):

think about kernspecht's quote of "never grapple a grappler" and what it means. if i want to learn how to deal with a grappler, should i add those same grappling studies to my own, and spend just as much time learning grappling as this hypothetical opponent? or should i learn how to apply principles i already know to a different circumstance? i already know the techniques. applying them in a different case would be easier than learning something new to apply then.

example: using a gum sau to press an opponent's arm into their body to clear the way for a strike and trap their other arm - pretty rudimentary stuff. now use that same gum sau to dissolve the force from a shoulder lock. also pretty simple. or yap gerk - bringing your front leg up in chamber for a kick. yap gerk also works when dealing with some trying to put an ankle lock on you.

completely different circumstances, but the techniques are the same.

now to the antigrappling. if you put me on the mat with someone who's been training in bjj for as long as i've done wt and i tried to grapple with him, i'd be praying to any god i could that this guy will let me tap out. the problem with doing this is i'd be playing his game - a game he knows better than me. do i try to beat bobby fischer at chess, or do i challenge him to a game of pictionary? (for those who don't get it, i suck at chess but doodle better than almost anyone). so that's where the punching comes in, and that's just the beginning, if someone's in mount, my chi sau still works, and so do my chain punches. my only goal is to get this assailant off me so i can go home and eat ice cream. punching him out will do it. if punching doesn't work, i try other techniques i know to get him off as soon as i can for two reasons:

1. the longer i grapple with him, the longer i wait until i can eat ice cream
2. the more likely it will be that i can get injured on a curb/bumper/bottle/anything on the ground, and the more likely that one of his bandito amigos can join the party. i could have my opponent in the greatest arm bar in history, a split second from breaking it, but if his cohort comes up to apply a blunt object to the back of my head while i'm still rolling in the asphalt with my first opponent, i'm wide open for a second attacker.

this is not to say that bjj or jjj or any other grappling art is bad. i'd be hard pressed to accept a fight with anyone who knows their stuff from any of these camps. but all i care about is that ice cream - it's the light at the end of my tunnel, and by grappling with an opponent on a sidewalk when i don't know two of his closest friends aren't around the corner for me isn't the most effective way to get home to said ice cream.

oh, and if you must ask, i prefer ben and jerry's chocolate fudge brownie. anyone who's had it knows why it's so important.

-rtb

[Nichiren]

Ryu: Nah, I'm not a Nichiren buddhist. I read a Eric Lustbader book "Jian" at the same time as I joined the forum and I needed a UserName. ;)

[Ryu]

Ah I see. :)
Just checkin.

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[KnightSabre]

It seems to me that some people think that grapplers only go for chokes or joint minipulations when on the ground.Far from it,we practice our striking from there as well.So who would have the advantage,the wing tsun guy at the bottom chain punching or the grappler striking from the mount?

"You're Good Kid Real Good,But As Long As I'm Arround You'll Always Be Second Best See".

[Ryu]

Just for the record, I spar occasionally with a big guy (friend of mine) and he has taken some MA before that involved trapping so to speak, but I'm not going to say he was a good 'wing chun" guy because it is obvious he isn't. (no offense to him :) ) But he always tried to punch me and do sticky hands when I mounted and punched down at him. .......afterwards he said he was going to have some words with his instructor :D

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[Nichiren]

I have the same experience coming to JJ from WT when mounted. our WT instructor said; Use your Chisao and punch back. RRRIGHT!!! If mounted by an experienced grappler its game over. In probably 8 times of 10 this is also true between grapplers.

The only lessons are; never give up your back or let anyone mount you. A warning now to kungfu practitioners who run down to the kwoon and try mounting and escape techniques on each other. There is a big difference between being mounted by a grappler and e.g. a karateka!

[KnightSabre]

Ryu,Nichiren....I'm glad that you guys are on the same wave length as me,I think the only way for someone to actualy understand what were talking about it to experience it first hand.

"You're Good Kid Real Good,But As Long As I'm Arround You'll Always Be Second Best See".

[Wongsifu]

man wt guys are a joke practising grappling , ive seen my first teacher ever since william cheung hit the deck by accident they have slowly introduced ground fightign into theyre sillabus, it basically involves rolling around trying to grope each other , with no concept of what an armbar is let alone all that complex passing the guard stuff !!!!

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

[Nichiren]

Wongsifu: I don't agree. The WT strategy is to never grapple with a grappler. This means no locks period (pushing and pulling is ok). What they use is the fundamental positions as in BJJ. With this I mean the guard, sidemount, mount etc. and strategies like never surrendering the back, push with feet on hips etc. It works ok but if mounted it is still game over. The main objective is of course to never end up on the ground.

I use WC when I'm grappling during my JJ classes but I never use JJ when I go the WC kwoon. The WC concepts integrate really good with JJ. I do not train WT anymore and I think it is better to cross-train JJ than train anti-grappling during my WC classes.

Confusing?? Summary: WT anti-grappling is ok but I would rather cross-train the real thing.

[Eddie]

Knightsabre,
I know the guy you are talking about. I know him fairly well, and NO he does not have 150 students. He shares a school out North (Midrand) with 2 other guys. Him and I also had a fall out recently. Its always, WT this and WT that, but when we ask to proove it in a ring (San Shou, MThai or any other rules) they are quick to change their tune (we had this big argument about how the King of the Ring and UFSA rules limit their fighting range). I went with a friend to the last UFSA, and he was also there. The whole **** night I had to sit and listen to his remarks about the fighters and how bad they are.

I can take allot, but I too get pretty ticked of when people start insulting other Martial Arts without being able to proove their statements. I am pretty neutral when it comes to allot of these simple political arguments we have in our beloved country - the style vs style thing, but one can only take so much.

BTW- You and I must get together sometime and do some training if you like (just for the fun of Martial Arts - nothing more). I think we are pretty close to each other. You are in Northcliff right? Is it that school on DF M drive next to Lifestyle?
Im in Wilropark, close to Westgate. Im free most of the time during the day. I can use a new training partner.
later
ed

[Nichiren]

Quote:
"zees guys are all wussies. GM Kernspricht will do ziz and zat...." etc etc etc.

LOL... :D

[Eddie]

nichiren
lol.... your to quick for me. I had to change the post though :) Didn't want this to turn into those usual topics

[KnightSabre]

Hi Eddie

Are you coming to Pride and Honor at Carnival City tomorrow night?
5 of our guys will be fighting as well as 2 guys from Matt Thorntons straightblast gym in the USA.
I train under Rodney King,I'm sure you've heard of him.The school you saw next to lifestyle is actually one of my class mates,he will be fighting tomorrow night against a Vale Tudo fighter from Ireland.My school is close to Northcliff corner.
where do you train?

"You're Good Kid Real Good,But As Long As I'm Arround You'll Always Be Second Best See".

[Merryprankster]

Rubthebuddha,

I understand what you are saying, but there is a little more to it.

First, the ground is not standing. The ground makes things different.... there are pivot points, pressure in different places, different ways of moving completely. The biggest problem facing new grapplers is NOT learning the techniques. It's learning "mat sense..." The strange and wonderful way of moving that keeps you where you want to be.

Secondly, the above comment flows into the second: You CANNOT use the same techniques. Certain concepts transfer over, others do not. The ground changes your power generation and the way you have to execute in order to keep yourself out of danger.

Thirdly, to "anti-grapple," you have to know ESCAPES, TAKEDOWN DEFENSES, and SWEEPS. You don't need to learn all the locks and hold downs. You don't even have to learn a ton of transitions. One or two solidly practiced escapes from every major hold-down, a couple of sweeps, and a couple of solid takedown defenses and you are in the game. So you won't be practicing grappling as much as the grappler because you have limited what you need to chase. You aren't "grappling with the grappler," you are now dictating the range of the fight, which is the ONLY way to avoid grappling a grappler.

A prime example of this is Mo Smith. The man avoids takedowns and knows how to get back up and has foiled more than one grappler because of this. He knows enough to stand back up, and that's his gameplan.

[old jong]

I believe this makes lots of sense! Wing Chun or any other striking arts don't work on the ground.They are made to beat an opponent while standing up and they can do the job but there is always the "IF"... You go down for some reason,you need to know some escapes down there.I don't believe in chi-sau while mounted. What are the best things to learn first?

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[Merryprankster]

The first four things to work on, in my opinion are:

1. The Bridge and Roll.
2. The Elbow Escape.
3. The scissor sweep from the Closed Guard.
4. Sprawling.

The first two will help you get out of mount. The third will help put you on TOP, so you can stand back up. The fourth will help keep you from getting taken down.

[old jong]

Hey thanks.
I know about the sprawll and I have some notions about the elbow escape.I'm not sure about the others.Is the bridge roll the "umpa" and the scissor sweep???. Do you have any links about these techniques?

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[Ryu]

The Upa is the bridge and roll, yes.

The scissors sweep is done when you open your guard, straighten your body, and then fall into a position where your knee is braced against the opponents stomach while the other is braced along the side of his leg or sometimes your foot can be on his knee. You usually have control of the collar, but can also control the neck with your hand, and with your other hand you control his base arm. You "scissor" him down with your legs, while pulling him forward a bit with your arms.
Done right this will put you in mount.

It's best to find a pic though, because this one is really hard for me to explain just with text.
Plus I just woke up and am kinda groggy... :D

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[old jong]

Hey thanks Ryu, I think I get the idea!...Talk about a time to get up!...It's the afternoon here in Montreal! ;) :D

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[anerlich]

My WC teacher, Rick Spain, took up BJJ about 2.5 years ago, with the Machado organisation in Oz under John Will.

He put on a white belt and just ate it up, loves the stuff. We're doing it at least a couple of times a week now as an affiliate school.

Next time some WC guy comes to your school and tries to put grappling down, you might just mention this to him.

I beleive some of Francis Fong's students are purple belts in BJJ, also.

[Merryprankster]

Good to know Ab man :)

[rubthebuddha]

no argument here. i'm not saying that learning grappling is bad. i'd be up sh1t creek without the proverbial paddle if i wasn't familiar enough with techniques to recognize when they're being used on me. i've learned more judo, jujitsu and other such stuff in my wing tsun classes than anywhere else, and that was simply for two reasons: 1. so we could feed it to a partner, and 2. so we'd be familiar with the technique in practice and NOT just in theory.

-rtb

[Merryprankster]

hey, fair enough bud!

Washington State or Washington DC?

[Wongsifu]

btw rick spain used to be one of william cheungs top no1 instructors, but i guess he got sick of willies modern wing chueng ground fighting , and him charging an arm and a leg for everything . :D Now he isnt affiliated with william cheung any more :D :D

btw anyone who says anytihng about doign chi sao in the guard must have severe brain damage, it would be easier to catch bullets with your teeth .

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

[fmann]

It's not about doing chi-sao from the guard, mind you. One of the WT anti-grappling principles is to use the chi-sao principles of tactile response and feeling what your opponent is doing to execute your action.

It's not linking up hands and playing with a guy mounting you for an arm bar. It's not about chain-punching a guy off you -- punches would only be used as a momentary interruption and distraction. It's about noticing the slight shift in weight due to your distraction and being able to use that to your advantage to get out of grappling and back up to standing.

Like I said, grapplers feel for the same kind of things. All of the same principles are just referred to by different names.

[tnwingtsun]

>If the wing chun guy is right, KnightSabre and his students can learn from the guy.<


Learn??How bout the MMA leaving for the WT school??

>If not, KnightSabre will probably get some new students, as some of the wing chun guy's students will probably sign up.<


Geeze Knife,what a double standard!! :rolleyes:


22 year old Wongsifu with no clue :rolleyes:

[qeySuS]

Ryu dont you have to secure his arm and foot on the side your rolling him to before doing the scissor? (mind you i've never done it i just bought the Renzo/Royler book a few weeks ago and i've been working my way slowly through it :D ). Now like i said i aint no master but it would seem that the point of that would be so he couldnt balance off with his hands and/or feet to avoid the rol

Free thinkers are dangerous!

[Wongsifu]

listen tnwingtsun dont have a grudge against me becasue you are learning from the single sh1ttest lineage of the most *******ized modern art after karate.
I think you should change youre name to BoztepesB1tch.

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

[Merryprankster]

tnwingtsun;

Fortunately, we don't really have to worry about that scenario. The bottom line is that in order to "counter grapple," you have to learn to grab, twist, move around like a grappler. If not, you're toast. Sorry, but that's the way it works. Countergrappling IS grappling, regardless of what name you put to it.

qeysus,

For the scissor sweep, if you are sweeping to your left, secure their right arm on the back of the tricep. With your right hand, grab the back of their neck. Now, turn your hips so you are laying on your left side. Put your right leg across their midsection. Your right shin should be buried in their tummy, with your right foot hooked on their left hip. The left leg is on the ground, as low as possible.

Pull forward and down with your right hand (the one on the neck), and pull forward and down with your left. Cut with your left leg as low to the ground as possible, and cut with your right leg. Turn the opponent over and come up into mount.

No need to secure the foot. In fact, you usually won't get the sweep if you get that left leg tangled up.

[Ryu]

Yep.
I thought I mentioned it in my post when I said take control of the base arm. You always have to break the opponent's base before you can move him.
MerryPrankster's description is very good, so I don't think I have to post a description again.

It would be much easier with pics.

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg


"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[qeySuS]

it's ok i have very good pics in the book :D

**** i gotta start readnig it again, i read like 1/4 of it when i was in USA (just after i bought it) and havent touched it since. Mostly because of a lot of school work.

Free thinkers are dangerous!

[rubthebuddha]

i'm about as far from you as i can get in the continental 48, unless i went to la push on the olympic peninsula. i'm in washington state, in the upperleft corner about 30 minutes from the canadian border. the city? bellngham, named for some nobby british explorer or something. :D

-rtb

[Eddie]

Knightsabre,
Howzit man. I do know Rodney. Unfortunatly I missed the Carnival city thing. I had 2 meetings scheduled for Saturday, a Chinese MA meeting and the WPKA kickboxing meeting. After that I was way to tired.

I teach Choy Lay Fut in Wilropark. We also do allot of San Shou (I/m not sure if you went to the last YFMG San Shou challenge that was held at Booysens?). We did invite Rondey previously (do you know Bruce K' who now lives in Canada?)but I think that you guys are more into the BJJ stuff right?.
E-mail me sometime. I will send you my phone number. mail@martialarts.co.za

[KnightSabre]

Hi Eddie

I know Bruce well,he is a good friend of mine and keeps me in touch with the happennings in Canada.

The Carnival City competition went very well.We won all out fights with either KO or submission.The two Straightblast fighters from the USA Rory and Forrest also won there fights convincingly.

"You're Good Kid Real Good,But As Long As I'm Arround You'll Always Be Second Best See".

[nobody]

inquiring minds want to know :cool:

[Eddie]

Knightsabre,
congratsulations on your schools victory.

Where exactly in Northcliff is your school? Would you mind if I come visit?
Cya
ed

[KnightSabre]

Hi Eddie - Thanks.
If you are coming along Df Malan (Beyers Naude) from Cresta you turn right at the Northcliff corner,I think the road is called Milner.
You then take the 2nd road right again.
It will be the 3rd house on the left.We park in the Jaguar clubs parking next door,you will see the gate is open and all the cars inside.We train Tuesdays and Thursdays from 19:30 to 21:00 you are more than welcome to come and visit.

I haven't heard from the Wing Chun guy since last week,I will tell him that I'm not interested in teaching him since he thinks my style is no good.

"You're Good Kid Real Good,But As Long As I'm Arround You'll Always Be Second Best See".

[rubthebuddha]

kudos to you for even throwing the idear out in the forum in the first place. it was nice to have you open for a bit of feedback from us. i hope we gave you something to work with, and i hope you get no more troubles from us evil WT/WC folkses. ;)

-rtb

[Knifefighter]

If the wing chun guy is right, KnightSabre and his students can learn from the guy.<
Learn??How bout the MMA leaving for the WT school??
==================================================
That's what I meant. If KnightSabre gets schooled by the WC guy, he and his students can go to the WC school to take some classes there

[tnwingtsun]

Knifefighter-my misunderstanding,what works,works
no argument there.

Wongsifu-"Ive never met a wing chunner in real life who doesnt think that he is gods gift to kung fu, except for one guy and he doesnt do wing chun anymore"

So you are saying that you've met every "wing-chunner"

Also you said.........."man wt guys are a joke practising grappling"

You sound like a joke downing other systems,calling yourself "Sifu" a 22 year old Sifu,far from it.

"listen tnwingtsun dont have a grudge against me"

I don't have a grudge against you,you made a stupid remark,I called you clueless for your brain ****,you're the one making an arse out of yourself.

" you are learning from the single sh1ttest lineage of the most *******ized modern art after karate."

Another clueless statment,you read that I have studied under Emin Bozstepe and you have no idea
what kind of combat training I have had,weather
it be stand-up,groundfighting,CQB,Sniper,SERE,Pathfinder,
Masterjumper,LRSU training to name a few,you have no clue grasshopper.


"I think you should change youre name to BoztepesB1tch"

Kind of hard to talk after you've stuck your foot so far up your mouth.

"This is because THC is not an alkaloid"

I'm amazed at your knowledge of THC,maybe thats whats causing you to make clueless stupid remarks.

I won't move if you don't move,you moved first,
thats why I called you clueless.

I'm old enough to let this go,or you can dig your hole deeper.
:rolleyes:

[tnwingtsun]

"The bottom line is that in order to "counter grapple," you have to learn to grab, twist, move around like a grappler. If not, you're toast. Sorry, but that's the way it works. Countergrappling IS grappling, regardless of what name you put to it."

I agree!!
;)