Something to discuss... Pole students check this out!

[LoneTiger108]

I rarely post here these days, especially since the current trends seem to be dividing the Wing Chun community rather than attempting to unite any of us!

Has anyone experience of using anything like this Weaponry Dummy?? Would be good to keep on topic but of course... this is KFO!!!!

https://www.facebook.com/#!/115538511812391/photos/a.231167940249447.63357.115538511812391/767070916659144/?type=1&theater

[LFJ]

I don't see the usefulness. These poles don't move, change angle, present challenge or give useful response. Better to train with a partner or more live apparatuses for solo training, such as: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e55HCijb3SM

[KPM]

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?66738-The-Pole-Dummy-or-quot-Kwun-Jong-quot

[LoneTiger108]

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?66738-The-Pole-Dummy-or-quot-Kwun-Jong-quot

Seriously? I understand you started a thread about this Kwun Jong subject but I found the whole thread full of derailments about whether or not Leung Bik existed lol!?!

Not interested in that. I'm interested in anyone here who has trained on this type of equipment.

[KPM]

Seriously? I understand you started a thread about this Kwun Jong subject but I found the whole thread full of derailments about whether or not Leung Bik existed lol!?!

Not interested in that. I'm interested in anyone here who has trained on this type of equipment.

Seriously Spencer? LFJ said: These poles don't move, change angle, present challenge or give useful response.

I provided a link to a thread that showed the Kwun Jong being used, showing that the poles do move and change angle. I provided a link to a thread that gave some background history on the Kwun Jong and some cool video footage of the Tang Yik pole form. If you aren't interested in the rest of that thread, then don't read it!

You say:
since the current trends seem to be dividing the Wing Chun community rather than attempting to unite any of us!

And then turn around and make snarky divisive comments of your own! :rolleyes:

Sorry for trying to contribute to the discussion you started! Please carry on without me!

[deejaye72]

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?66738-The-Pole-Dummy-or-quot-Kwun-Jong-quot

great post keith, i enjoyed the footage of michael tang, and tang yik.

[LFJ]

Seriously Spencer? LFJ said: These poles don't move, change angle, present challenge or give useful response.

I provided a link to a thread that showed the Kwun Jong being used, showing that the poles do move and change angle.

No, they don't. They stick straight out parallel with the floor and stay there. They don't turn, lift, or lower in angle. When you whack them they just go boing-yoing-yoing, which is not a realistic/useful response. There's no accuracy or power training with it either. It's pretty dead training. Not something I find useful at all. Better to train power and accuracy solo, then get a partner for more live training.

[Minghequan]

Have to go with LFJ on this one. Far better and certainly more "alive" ways to practice and advance then this. Using a partner will always stand heads and shoulders about "dead in the water" training!

[FongSung]

Ron & LFJ that goes without saying but the same thing can be said for any training aid including the Muk Yan Jong. A training partner is also first choice. I see it would have its uses and the poles do give a certain amount of limited feed back being flexible and at different angle. Solo training also hasits benifits of course. It all down to the individual.

[anerlich]

Dummies are for when training partners get tired, sick, or have real world stuff to do. Which is to say, they have their uses.

[LFJ]

Ron & LFJ that goes without saying but the same thing can be said for any training aid including the Muk Yan Jong. A training partner is also first choice.

For me, solo pole training and MYJ have their place in development. They aren't just second choices.

In my first post I linked to a video of what I find to be more useful solo training for the pole. For solo training, I think power and accuracy should be the focus.

What they try to reproduce with this pole dummy just doesn't do it. It's best to leave that type of thing for when you have a partner who can actually hold their pole firmly and move it and/or themselves around.

Also, for the time, material, and space it would take to build this thing, or the money it would cost to buy and ship one, it's value is far less than just hanging some 2x4's from a tree.


I see it would have its uses and the poles do give a certain amount of limited feed back being flexible and at different angle.

I don't know what definition of "angle" you guys are using, but they aren't at different angles. They're at different heights. And the response is nothing like whacking a pole held firmly by a human, which makes it a useless response, imo.

[LoneTiger108]

... I provided a link to a thread that showed the Kwun Jong being used, showing that the poles do move and change angle. I provided a link to a thread that gave some background history on the Kwun Jong and some cool video footage of the Tang Yik pole form. If you aren't interested in the rest of that thread, then don't read it!

You say:
since the current trends seem to be dividing the Wing Chun community rather than attempting to unite any of us!

And then turn around and make snarky divisive comments of your own! :rolleyes:

Sorry for trying to contribute to the discussion you started! Please carry on without me!

Sorry you feel that way and have some sort of preconceived idea about my interest in this subject and 'sarky' attitude?! FWIW I totally enjoyed your post and the information you have shared there too, but it is something I and probably many others have already seen before. The photo I shared, on the other hand, I feel is new and what I really was looking for here was examples or clips and stories from people who have actually been taught this stuff or at least tried it out for themselves.

For the purpose of keeping the peace, I should have simply copied and pasted your opening post, so here it is...



The Pole Dummy or "Kwun Jong"

I want one of these! When I have a place big enough to accommodate it I plan to build one. It looks like it would be easy enough.

This is the “pole dummy” from Tang Yik Weng Chun. It is a large frame that holds 7 poles that the practitioner trains against. At one point there was only maybe only 1 or 2 of these in existence. You’ll see below that Sergio says there are 3 and Derek says there are 5 and I found video of someone with at least 1 more. So as people see this on youtube there will likely be more of them showing up in schools and backyards.

Why is it not more well known, like Wing Chun’s Wooden Dummy you might ask? Well, according to Sifu Sergio’s research, Yip Man did quite a bit of cross-training with friends at the Dai Dak Lan when he lived in Hong Kong. From what I understand, the Dai Dak Lan was a warehouse in the fish market area. In China the wooden dummy or Mook Yan Jong was sunk into the ground like a post. In Hong Kong at the Dai Dak Lan is where it is believed that the first wall-mounted dummy was invented. Yip Man saw this, took some measurements, and had Koo Sang make one for him. Yip Man trained with Tang Yik at the Dai Dak Lan and is said to have refined the pole that he already knew and learned a bit more from Tang Yik. But Yip Man never saw the Kwun Jong because Tang Yik kept it on the roof of his apartment building rather than at the Dai Dak Lan. Who knows? If Yip Man had seen and trained on Tang Yik’s Kwun Jong, it would probably be a regular part of Wing Chun today!

Here Sifu Sergio gives us an introduction and background to the Kwun Jong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rEZD2dyVgU

Derek Rozanski (VingDragon) was a regular active member of this forum at one time. But like a lot of the older guys with good things to say, he either got tired of the nonsense that goes on here, or was just plain driven away. He started out with Andreas Hoffman and became rather disillusioned with what Hoffman was saying and doing. So he sought out some of the original Weng Chun people and has studied Michael Tang (Tang Yik’s descendent) as well as others. Derek built the first Kwun Jong in the US. Here he is talking about it and demo’ing:

Kwun Jong 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lLZbXxbG8I

Kwun Jong 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2utDXKelxo

Michael Tang demo’ing on the Kwun Jong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCK06...FTvbWv-y6_Jy7A

Finally, someone in the states that has made one for themself just based on photos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTquJeHrqms

Derek has also built a smaller 3 pole version based on the original:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz8hB3eSbUg

I’d be remiss if I did not re-post the footage of Tang Yik himself doing the pole. I know many have seen it already, but it’s worth repeating just because the man was so impressive with the pole!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBic0U0_M0M

So has anyone else built one of these yet and given it a go?

[LoneTiger108]

For me, solo pole training and MYJ have their place in development. They aren't just second choices.

In my first post I linked to a video of what I find to be more useful solo training for the pole. For solo training, I think power and accuracy should be the focus.

What they try to reproduce with this pole dummy just doesn't do it. It's best to leave that type of thing for when you have a partner who can actually hold their pole firmly and move it and/or themselves around.

Good points.

Just in addition you mention power and accuracy being the focus? What part of learning how to hit a stationary object does not help build your power and accuracy? Like using the wooden man as an example here, we were probably all taught ideas like "remember, this is a dummy! It's dead and doesn't move!! So you must put in extra work" and I see this Pole Dummy no differently. It can be used to build your confidence slowly before moving onto live interactive drills with a partner/s simply because it doesn't move. The more skilled drills you shared are all part of this progression too.

A boxers heavy bag doesn't move like a person either, nor does their speed ball, but should we discount the benefits it has on the overall development of the boxer?

Ultimately I think all the solo training with apparatus like this is designed to prepare the student for 'impact' and to build your level of applying and receiving such impact. A key to developing your Art prior to any attempt to use it all for real...

[LFJ]

Just in addition you mention power and accuracy being the focus? What part of learning how to hit a stationary object does not help build your power and accuracy?

Whacking one of those flimsy sticks won't build power, and if you ever miss one of them you're hopeless. :p

I didn't watch all the clips through, but I never see them doing thrusting or striking with it. They just whack the sticks as if deflecting, and I think there are better exercises/apparatuses to use for that.


Like using the wooden man as an example here, we were probably all taught ideas like "remember, this is a dummy! It's dead and doesn't move!! So you must put in extra work" and I see this Pole Dummy no differently.

For me, with the MYJ the main idea is the training of certain attributes, not imagining an opponent. That's what solo pole training should be as well, imo. Attribute training. Power and accuracy in the case of the pole. That's not achieved with this pole dummy, and I personally don't see much benefit in dancing around in front of this thing whacking its flimsy sticks.


It can be used to build your confidence slowly before moving onto live interactive drills with a partner/s simply because it doesn't move. The more skilled drills you shared are all part of this progression too.

Partner work with the pole doesn't have to be sparring or anything that requires more advanced skill. A partner can hold their pole and allow you to develop your deflections on it as a sort of solo practice but with a more live response. Being that a human is holding the pole, the effect will be the same as in real application when you hit their pole. It'll therefore be better for power training too, as you can really whack 'em against live resistance.

[LoneTiger108]

Whacking one of those flimsy sticks won't build power, and if you ever miss one of them you're hopeless. :p

All in good time! The sticks that go into these frames can be whatever type you ant them to be, so you can build your power bit by bit.


For me, with the MYJ the main idea is the training of certain attributes, not imagining an opponent. That's what solo pole training should be as well, imo. Attribute training. Power and accuracy in the case of the pole. That's not achieved with this pole dummy, and I personally don't see much benefit in dancing around in front of this thing whacking its flimsy sticks.

This is where I disagree. The attributes you describe are exactly what is gained from both weaponry and empty hand wooden dummies?


Partner work with the pole doesn't have to be sparring or anything that requires more advanced skill. A partner can hold their pole and allow you to develop your deflections on it as a sort of solo practice but with a more live response. Being that a human is holding the pole, the effect will be the same as in real application when you hit their pole. It'll therefore be better for power training too, as you can really whack 'em against live resistance.

Again, what you are describing here is what the dummies provide, all except a follow up advance or live partner?? Is it me or am I seeing things?

It would be good to hear from others too who have used weaponry dummies. I have used similar apparatus and of course it doesn't replace a live person, but they do provide excellent things to hit and practice set drills, advancing and retreating stepping work, stances and every single part of the six point and half pole can be trained safely (without hurting a partner) and if you have a mind for weaponry, your knives too can be trained in this exact same manner.

[LFJ]

Again, what you are describing here is what the dummies provide, all except a follow up advance or live partner??

The dummy provides live resistance and response when you hit its poles, like a pole held by an actual human?

[LoneTiger108]

The dummy provides live resistance and response when you hit its poles, like a pole held by an actual human?

No I was trying to suggest that the other attributes like power and angling can be beneficial before moving onto live partner training. If a partner is standing there and allowing you to develop, I see it as no different than using a dummy. It's only when they then begin possible advances or reactive movements that it becomes alive, and yes that training is required too!

As an example, I hadn't trained with a person in a while and when I did my power had increased so much they simply couldn't even hold onto the pole when I started to move into them. This was because of my solo power drills on apparatus like this pole dummy. That 'Wing Chun pole only makes one sound' really does exist.

[LFJ]

If a partner is standing there and allowing you to develop, I see it as no different than using a dummy. It's only when they then begin possible advances or reactive movements that it becomes alive,

What I meant by "live response" was not that it's an alive drill, but that hitting the flimsy sticks on this pole dummy will not give you a human response, and if you put really thick, solid poles on it, you aren't going to get much of a response at all. If all that's being trained on this dummy are deflections, I can't find it that useful without a more realistic response from the pole.

I like Gary Lam's cross wok dummy, because it can have some weight to it, but it actually moves when you hit the arms or thrust to the body. I find that more useful than a static apparatus that you can only work deflections on and the poles don't even get deflected.

[LoneTiger108]

I like Gary Lam's cross wok dummy, because it can have some weight to it, but it actually moves when you hit the arms or thrust to the body. I find that more useful than a static apparatus that you can only work deflections on and the poles don't even get deflected.

FME using such things the poles do get deflected if you have them mounted in such ways. I have always preferred the white wax wood sticks to the softer bamboo type but both have their qualities. There are also other types of dummies too, like the Gary Lam one you mention, so it's worthwhile to have a look around or even design your own especially if you are on your own for any length of time and unable to train with partners.

Still, I will always agree with you when it comes to using partners to train with! They are irreplaceable, and perhaps this is why these dummies exist too?