Wing Chun culture -loyalty

[zuti car]

Several times in last couple of days people are talking about wing chun culture , loyalty included . Now , wing chun culture is basically Chinese culture . My question is ,should that culture be accepted and followed by non Chinese , especially because that is expected from Chinese instructors? On the other hand , attitude toward people who are trying to follow Chinese tradition is negative , I know that first hand how local people here feel about wannabe Chinese . And about loyalty , what does that mean? If you pay for your lessons how do you owe anything to the instructor , especially when a lot of people are talking that if you are not family member or "close door" student , no matter how much you pay you will never have compete system ? So, follow tradition and be loyal or not?

[anerlich]

Closed door systems are self defeating because of the lack of pressure testing interaction with the wide variety of other stylists, and the smaller number of brains involved.

There's usually some value in tradition provided it is subject to critical thinking. Good manners get anyone a long way. But these days women are allowed to vote and we don't keep slaves anymore.

For a westerner to act like a traditional Oriental is ridiculous. What's wrong with your own culture? The way I've seen some people carry on doesn't even happen in China anymore.

Loyalty is a slippery fish. I've seen too many situations in MA where people have been forced to make choices they shouldn't have to make because of the actions of others and due to no fault of their own. Been a victim of that myself.

Those keenest to remind you if the virtues of loyalty can sometimes be those who least deserve it.

[KPM]

I don't think a sense of loyalty to a martial group is just a Chinese thing. Even today in modern military settings there is a keen sense of loyalty to your comrades. You want to know that the guy next to you is going to have your back in a battle. But, when it becomes almost cult-like in the way it is expressed, and when it is used by leaders to control the behavior of members of the group....this is not good. Zuti, I too have seen western Kung Fu teachers that try to be even more "traditional" than their Chinese comrades. I don't think this is necessary or desirable.

[Minghequan]

It becomes a problem when it becomes a problem.

Many westerners are trying to be another culture and that can cause issues as most try but don't truly understand the cultures they say they are representing.

[LoneTiger108]

Several times in last couple of days people are talking about wing chun culture , loyalty included . Now , wing chun culture is basically Chinese culture . My question is ,should that culture be accepted and followed by non Chinese , especially because that is expected from Chinese instructors?

Wing Chun culture? Loyalty? Accepted and followed?

Have a look into China today and you will not see much of this sort of thing, at least not commercially. The effects of the 'no master' rule, where students are expected to explore and train with many sifus and systems, has been around now in the mainland Wushu schools for over 50 years.

Martial Arts Culture as a whole is dominated by popular culture, and these days I think we all see the positives and negatives of such freedoms.

Mo Duk (Wude) is actually part of the older culture and not commonly found in modern Wing Chun.

[Vajramusti]

Wing Chun culture? Loyalty? Accepted and followed?

Have a look into China today and you will not see much of this sort of thing, at least not commercially. The effects of the 'no master' rule, where students are expected to explore and train with many sifus and systems, has been around now in the mainland Wushu schools for over 50 years.

Martial Arts Culture as a whole is dominated by popular culture, and these days I think we all see the positives and negatives of such freedoms.

Mo Duk (Wude) is actually part of the older culture and not commonly found in modern Wing Chun.
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Mao did much to shatter traditional kung fu on the mainland and to shatter traditional loyalties.
Modern wushu began to replace old wu shu and coaches replaced the shifu.
Later sanda tried to replace the fighting part. But here and there aspects of kung fu survived-
taiji in Chen village and Sum Nung in wing chun etc..

I am not a confucian but imo loyalties based reflection and good values other than to the state
can be virtues.

[Kellen Bassette]

Several times in last couple of days people are talking about wing chun culture , loyalty included . Now , wing chun culture is basically Chinese culture . My question is ,should that culture be accepted and followed by non Chinese , especially because that is expected from Chinese instructors? On the other hand , attitude toward people who are trying to follow Chinese tradition is negative , I know that first hand how local people here feel about wannabe Chinese . And about loyalty , what does that mean? If you pay for your lessons how do you owe anything to the instructor , especially when a lot of people are talking that if you are not family member or "close door" student , no matter how much you pay you will never have compete system ? So, follow tradition and be loyal or not?

I suppose someone could delve as deeply into another culture as they see fit, buy it will probably seem odd and forced to wholly adopt a foreign culture. I think it is completely unnecessary for training MAs, although some knowledge of the culture and history can go a long way towards understanding why some things in the arts are the way they are.

I think you can be loyal to your teachers and train with others. In fact, I would never train with anyone who told his students not to train elsewhere. Cross training, or training with other shifus is nothing new...that is as much tradition as anything.

Sometimes I feel like having a "complete system" is just a club to make yourself feel superior. All the bread and butter skills always come in the beginning...

Good questions Zuti...

[Grumblegeezer]

I think you can be loyal to your teachers and train with others. In fact, I would never train with anyone who told his students not to train elsewhere. Cross training, or training with other shifus is nothing new...that is as much tradition as anything.

Sometimes I feel like having a "complete system" is just a club to make yourself feel superior. All the bread and butter skills always come in the beginning...

Well said. A sifu who won't allow, or perhaps even encourage students to cross train when appropriate is either:

a. insecure in his own skills
b. a freakin' cultist with a closed mind
c. afraid his own sifu or organization won't approve
d. just a greedy S.O.B. who want's all your time and money