The Way Forward

[Minghequan]

There has been a lot of discussion on this the Wing Chun forum that can best be described as unfortunate and I have been one of the biggest contributors to this mess. I've stated elsewhere why I felt the way I did and why I got involved.

But I'm not justifying myself. My behaviour has been questionable and even somewhat childish at times. I fully get this and am remorseful for that aspect of the discussion generally contributing towards lowering the tone.

I have come to realise one or two things during all this.

1/. Not everyone feels as passionately as I do.
2/. Not everyone is honest and up-front when they should be.
3/. A great many hide behind pseudonyms.
4/. A great many have agenda's.
5/. We All have to strive to lift the tone and behaviour exhibited here, myself no less than anyone else!

So I's like to ask you ALL to participate on how this can be achieved? What is the way forward?

As a means of starting discussion, why don't we treat each other as if we were in their school, Guan, Tang, Kwoon, Dojo whatever you want to call it?

What rules of conversation, discussion and engagement or agreeing to disagree could we apply to ourselves here on this forum, the whole forum?

How many of you are really for raising the bar here or am I simply pipe-dreaming?

I often read Gene Ching's posts in the Magazine about Wude, Martial Spirit, Ethics and behaviour and agree with his views whilst shaking my head at my own behaviour often not being aligned to these very same things that at one time or another we all have been exposed to, taught and ought to strive for.

So ... the discussion is open ... does anyone want to contribute?

[tc101]

There has been a lot of discussion on this the Wing Chun forum that can best be described as unfortunate and I have been one of the biggest contributors to this mess. I've stated elsewhere why I felt the way I did and why I got involved.

But I'm not justifying myself. My behaviour has been questionable and even somewhat childish at times. I fully get this and am remorseful for that aspect of the discussion generally contributing towards lowering the tone.

I have come to realise one or two things during all this.

1/. Not everyone feels as passionately as I do.
2/. Not everyone is honest and up-front when they should be.
3/. A great many hide behind pseudonyms.
4/. A great many have agenda's.
5/. We All have to strive to lift the tone and behaviour exhibited here, myself no less than anyone else!

So I's like to ask you ALL to participate on how this can be achieved? What is the way forward?

As a means of starting discussion, why don't we treat each other as if we were in their school, Guan, Tang, Kwoon, Dojo whatever you want to call it?

What rules of conversation, discussion and engagement or agreeing to disagree could we apply to ourselves here on this forum, the whole forum?

How many of you are really for raising the bar here or am I simply pipe-dreaming?

I often read Gene Ching's posts in the Magazine about Wude, Martial Spirit, Ethics and behaviour and agree with his views whilst shaking my head at my own behaviour often not being aligned to these very same things that at one time or another we all have been exposed to, taught and ought to strive for.

So ... the discussion is open ... does anyone want to contribute?

I compliment you for giving this thought. Good for you.

[KPM]

Thank you Ron. Good post and good idea.

I think too often people hide behind a pseudonym and a keyboard and write things that they would never say in a face to face situation. IMHO every discussion here, like you suggest, should be conducted as if we were in someone's school or at least sitting around drinks having a face to face conversation. Sure, there will be some good-natured kidding back and forth, some off-topic meanderings in threads, some skipping around, some disagreements...just like in any normal conversation. But hopefully this would limit some of the more rude, snarky comments that end up with someone p!ssed off and taking a swing at the speaker or at least storming out of the room. When people are looking someone in the eye, they just naturally tend to be a little more polite than they are from behind a keyboard. Everyone should keep that in mind.

And what this forum has lacked is any kind of consistent and serious moderation. No one likes to be censored and no one likes to be the bad guy doing the censoring. But clearly some of the things going on here recently needed someone to step in and exert a little authority. Just like the bartender stepping in and saying "keep it down guys, or I'm going to ask you to leave!"

Personally, I hate pseudonyms and intials. Everyone should be required to provide a name, even if its a fake one. But that's just me.

Everyone should also realize (myself included) that tone and intent can easily be misinterpreted in a forum format. Something that the writer didn't intend to be offensive when he wrote it can be taken that way depending on the context and positioning within the post and the way it is stated. Someone can make what they intended as a general comment, but place it right next to something someone else just wrote and it will look like it was directed at that person. So just being thoughtful and careful with what is written rather than just replying with "stream of thought" can go a long ways towards avoiding unnecessary conflict.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The WC forum is kind of a running joke, I am sorry to say.
The pointless bickering and arguments about the most insignificant of crap is truly mind boggling.
Some WC people are under the impression that their system is SO MUCH better/different than any other, they are closed minded and arrogant AND ignorant about the reality of MA.
This whole forum gets into arguments about things that anywhere else in any other circumstances, would be the biggest joke ever.
I think you guys just need to grow up, stop trying to be such prima donas and simple realize that it is OK to be different, Its OK to have different ways of doing WC and that there is NO "real" WC.
WC is about fighting, every MA is about fighting regardless of the extra baggage anyone tries to tatted to it ( for whatever reason).
The first step in you guys growing up is to realize THAT.
The next step is to stop listening and giving and sort of credibility to those that can NOT ( or their students can not) "practice what they preach", ie:
See it taught, see it fought.
If someone comes up with some "theory" and they or their students CAN'T demonstrate for real, simply realize that what can't be fought with deserves as little consideration as possible.

It also wouldn't hurt you WC guys to support your fellow WC peeps that are ACTUALLY FIGHTING with WC.

Of course, if you feel that WC is NOT a fighting art, that it was NOT developed to fight with and that fighting is NOT the purpose of a system who's principles and techniques are about hitting and hurting other people, well then...

Forget all I just wrote and go back to your La-La land.

WC is no more and no less than any other MA, get over yourselves and grow up ( and grow a pair while you are at it).

[Frost]

It also wouldn't hurt you WC guys to support your fellow WC peeps that are ACTUALLY FIGHTING with WC.



But they are not fighting with correct wing chun principles.....of course those said correct principles can only be talked about and demonstrated in chi sau and static applications not in actual fights against trained opponents...but still they are not using wing chun principles i tell you!

and so the circle jerk goes on and on

[KPM]

See, here is part of the problem. Ron starts a thread with a sincere and honest intent and question. And then people come along with sole purpose of sabotaging it and taking it off-topic.

[pazman]

Some WC people are under the impression that their system is SO MUCH better/different than any other, they are closed minded and arrogant AND ignorant about the reality of MA.

This.

I can read and enjoy almost any thread on this forum, save for any in the wing chun forum. I don't know if its a few people ruining it for everyone else, but I get the same impression from the forums that I get in real life from wing chun people. Lot's of talk and pontification but no action on the lei tai.

[sanjuro_ronin]

See, here is part of the problem. Ron starts a thread with a sincere and honest intent and question. And then people come along with sole purpose of sabotaging it and taking it off-topic.

This is an example of the problems in the WC forum.
People express what those problems are and get "sabotaging and off -topic" as a reply.
Realize this:
While there is some drama and some disagreement in other forums, it never even gets close to the "drama queen" battles that happen here.
Maybe you WC guys should trade in the sand in your vagina for a pair of balls.
That may help.

You complain that it is the lack of moderation on this forum but the reality is this:
Everyone else sees you guys as the armchair warriors and drama queens that you are.

You guys are lucky than ANYONE wants to moderate this desolate waste of cyber space that is populated by a bunch of whiny pussies.

[JPinAZ]

You complain that it is the lack of moderation on this forum but the reality is this:
Everyone else sees you guys as the armchair warriors and drama queens that you are.


You guys are lucky than ANYONE wants to moderate this desolate waste of cyber space that is populated by a bunch of whiny pussies.

LOL!! way too funny (and not at the same time)

[KPM]

This is an example of the problems in the WC forum.
People express what those problems are and get "sabotaging and off -topic" as a reply.
Realize this:
While there is some drama and some disagreement in other forums, it never even gets close to the "drama queen" battles that happen here.
Maybe you WC guys should trade in the sand in your vagina for a pair of balls.
That may help.

You complain that it is the lack of moderation on this forum but the reality is this:
Everyone else sees you guys as the armchair warriors and drama queens that you are.

You guys are lucky than ANYONE wants to moderate this desolate waste of cyber space that is populated by a bunch of whiny pussies.

You don't do Wing Chun. You don't like us. You think we are all pussies. So you are hereby invited to "GET THE HELL OUT!" Ron asked for a "way forward" to stop the bickering and fighting. Rather than offer a real suggestion, you chose to just feed the flames. Go back and read your own post. Then talk to us about "drama queens". :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

Rest my case.
I Offered you the one real suggestion that would actually work.
That you didn't get it speaks volumes.

[KPM]

Rest my case.
I Offered you the one real suggestion that would actually work.
That you didn't get it speaks volumes.

Maybe, just maybe it was because you started out with saying what a running joke we are and that we are prima donas that need to "grow up"....and then expect us to take your advice seriously? Did you even read what I posted on this thread? You barge into the bar where we are sitting around discussing and kick the table over spilling everyone's drinks and then expect us to actually CARE what YOU have to say? Get real drama queen! :rolleyes:

[Kellen Bassette]

I also am uninvolved with WC, and I have nothing against the art itself...but...
I do feel like SR's comments reflect the general sentiment of the larger MA's community.
As stated, there is infighting, nonsense and lineage wars throughout all MA's, but really nothing close to the degree you get with WC; and the attitude is prevalent with what seems to be a majority of the practitioners, not just forum posters.

I don't know why it's that way; and am not trying to be preachy, but I think the "WC attitude" is bad for Wing Chun and CMAs in general. I honestly hope the WC community becomes more involved with fighting, where you see less of that type of silliness going on. (You see it with fighters too, just not everyday. :p )

[Frost]

Maybe, just maybe it was because you started out with saying what a running joke we are and that we are prima donas that need to "grow up"....and then expect us to take your advice seriously? Did you even read what I posted on this thread? You barge into the bar where we are sitting around discussing and kick the table over spilling everyone's drinks and then expect us to actually CARE what YOU have to say? Get real drama queen! :rolleyes:

and you don't think you lot are a running joke to most other stylists here ....seriously? You don't think all you do is whinge and whine like a bunch of school girls.... have you read any of the threads here in the past year, everything from lineage wars to secret histories to not looking like how proper wing Chun should look (without of course showing us what it should look like) ronin is correct, the percentage of ****ing on each other threads to actually fighting threads here is about 100 to 1, and when someone does post a fighting clip YOU not only go on for 20pages about how its not wing chun (without not once manning up and showing a clip of what wing chun should look like un a fight) but then YOU also run off like a kid to the main forum hoping others will join in on your bashing...ffs grow a pair and when someone like ronin with a very good tcma background and actual extensive full contact and vale tudo experience offers advice listen to it

[GlennR]

Maybe, just maybe it was because you started out with saying what a running joke we are and that we are prima donas that need to "grow up"....and then expect us to take your advice seriously? Did you even read what I posted on this thread? You barge into the bar where we are sitting around discussing and kick the table over spilling everyone's drinks and then expect us to actually CARE what YOU have to say? Get real drama queen! :rolleyes:

Keith, you just confirmed what SR was saying

[pazman]

8531

We need more mermen.

[Minghequan]

There has been a lot of discussion on this the Wing Chun forum that can best be described as unfortunate and I have been one of the biggest contributors to this mess. I've stated elsewhere why I felt the way I did and why I got involved.

But I'm not justifying myself. My behaviour has been questionable and even somewhat childish at times. I fully get this and am remorseful for that aspect of the discussion generally contributing towards lowering the tone.

I have come to realise one or two things during all this.

1/. Not everyone feels as passionately as I do.
2/. Not everyone is honest and up-front when they should be.
3/. A great many hide behind pseudonyms.
4/. A great many have agenda's.
5/. We All have to strive to lift the tone and behaviour exhibited here, myself no less than anyone else!

So I's like to ask you ALL to participate on how this can be achieved? What is the way forward?

As a means of starting discussion, why don't we treat each other as if we were in their school, Guan, Tang, Kwoon, Dojo whatever you want to call it?

What rules of conversation, discussion and engagement or agreeing to disagree could we apply to ourselves here on this forum, the whole forum?

How many of you are really for raising the bar here or am I simply pipe-dreaming?

I often read Gene Ching's posts in the Magazine about Wude, Martial Spirit, Ethics and behaviour and agree with his views whilst shaking my head at my own behaviour often not being aligned to these very same things that at one time or another we all have been exposed to, taught and ought to strive for.

So ... the discussion is open ... does anyone want to contribute?

Please keep on subject.

[FongSung]

Thank you Ron. Good post and good idea.

I think too often people hide behind a pseudonym and a keyboard and write things that they would never say in a face to face situation. IMHO every discussion here, like you suggest, should be conducted as if we were in someone's school or at least sitting around drinks having a face to face conversation.

This is exactly how the old timers do it, like I was saying in another thread, face to face .... wanna talk can no problem but then its ...ok show, lets touch hands lah. If they cannot show or refuse to touch hands (which many do) then they have to shut up.

WC is very simple but abstract. ..no need to talk so much.... practice, touch hands, share and discuss then like all fighting arts you will slowly master it.

The problem in tcma is finding people to touch hands with who have no ego and not embarrassed to so called lose or be hit. Discussing all will do lol. I find its mainly the old timers who are willing to touch hands which because they have actually used it in real situations. All the old timers I have met in SEA and China talk about their fights not about how their chi can flow and how to do tan properly etc.

[KPM]

Keith, you just confirmed what SR was saying

How so Glenn? Are you going to jump on the bandwagon with the naysayers and Wing Chun bashers as well?

[KPM]

and you don't think you lot are a running joke to most other stylists here ....seriously?

I don't really care what "other stylists" think. I don't participate in their forum and they don't have to participate in this one. Like I told SR, you are welcome to "GET THE HELL OUT" if you don't like us, don't do Wing Chun, and think we are pussies. Go elsewhere! You are a very frequent Wing Chun basher here. Go play in the MMA forum and leave us alone.


You don't think all you do is whinge and whine like a bunch of school girls....

What the heck is "whinge"? But if you think that fine, then GO ELSEWHERE AND LEAVE US ALONE.



someone like ronin with a very good tcma background and actual extensive full contact and vale tudo experience offers advice listen

I'm not going to listen to anyone that gets in my face and calls me a "p#ssy." How about you? Do you respond well to that??

[KPM]

Please keep on subject.

Lost cause at this point Ron. A lot of threads start out with good intentions until the idiots arrive and shoot it down.

[GlennR]

How so Glenn? Are you going to jump on the bandwagon with the naysayers and Wing Chun bashers as well?

And there you go AGAIN Keith

Naysayers, WC bashers, walking int a bar and starting a fight (your previous comment) and so on....

SR makes valid points, the main one being that the WC forum looks like a home for lost b i t c h e s.

[KPM]

And there you go AGAIN Keith

Naysayers, WC bashers, walking int a bar and starting a fight (your previous comment) and so on....

SR makes valid points, the main one being that the WC forum looks like a home for lost b i t c h e s.

Bull Sh!t Glenn! They are WC bashers! They did come to this thread just to start a fight. Did you read SR's post? I don't give a d@mn what SR or Frostie thinks if they can't be polite and say it in a non-inflammatory manner. They want a fight, they'll get one! We started this thread off trying to reach a calm middle ground and then we have two non-WCK guys jump in with guns blazing. I'm beginning to think this forum is a lost cause when the regular Wing Chun guys won't even stick up for each other. :rolleyes:

[Minghequan]

Well that went well didn't it?

Only a few posts in and it all turn's to "sh#t".

Don't you people get it???

Enough is enough.

What are your homes like? What are your training Halls like? Do you talk to your fellow family members like that? Do you talk to your classmates, co-workers and teachers like this? No wonder the real guys stay hidden away!

Want to argue about Wing Chun versus this or that? Great then start your own thread and off you go, have at it!

But for God's sake if you have nothing positive to contribute on this thread (yes this thread) then don't bother posting at all?

And for God's sake grow up people!

Is all this too much to asks???

[Grumblegeezer]

Well that went well didn't it?

Only a few posts in and it all turn's to "sh#t".

Don't you people get it???

Obviously they don't. And the reactions are so extreme, it's actually kinda funny. But to get back to your OP, the only way forward is to consistently take the high road. We need to be respectful of each other ...in spite of the fact that we will often disagree. And when someone posts something that is really beyond the pale, we need to resist the urge to respond in kind or to engage in personal attacks. Instead, the rest of us need to come together out of a sense of fair play and call foul.

That's how it's done guys. Ignore the provocateurs and trolls. And if they persist, stand together and call foul. Can you do that?

[Grumblegeezer]

OK, the following is an example of what I would call totally unacceptable:



...Maybe you WC guys should trade in the sand in your vagina for a pair of balls.
That may help...

You guys are lucky than ANYONE wants to moderate this desolate waste of cyber space that is populated by a bunch of whiny pussies.

When anyone posts something that reads like this, we all ought to call foul. Crude, hateful and sexist language like that does not persuade anybody of anything. It is just an attempt to elicit an equally over the top response. Too bad too, because SR actually had a legit point to make. But with that kind of language any point goes out the window.

So what do you say SR? Are you willing to make your points with some basic modicum of civility? If so you are welcome. If not, you really should hold back from hitting the "submit reply" button.

[Grumblegeezer]

Keith, from what I've seen, you usually try to stand up and speak out when you see someone being treated unfairly on this forum ...even when you don't necessarily agree with them. I admire that. On the other hand, you have to hold your temper if you want to elevate the quality of this discussion. Check out the quote below. You totally got sucked into a pointless fight. Don't take the bait. You don't need to.We all read that post. Just ignore the rude and trollish comments, or at least respond with dignity! We will back you.


Bull Sh!t Glenn! They are WC bashers! They did come to this thread just to start a fight. Did you read SR's post? I don't give a d@mn what SR or Frostie thinks if they can't be polite and say it in a non-inflammatory manner. They want a fight, they'll get one!...

[FongSung]

and you don't think you lot are a running joke to most other stylists here ....seriously?

I don't really care what "other stylists" think. I don't participate in their forum and they don't have to participate in this one. Like I told SR, you are welcome to "GET THE HELL OUT" if you don't like us, don't do Wing Chun, and think we are pussies. Go elsewhere! You are a very frequent Wing Chun basher here. Go play in the MMA forum and leave us alone.


You don't think all you do is whinge and whine like a bunch of school girls....

What the heck is "whinge"? But if you think that fine, then GO ELSEWHERE AND LEAVE US ALONE.



someone like ronin with a very good tcma background and actual extensive full contact and vale tudo experience offers advice listen

I'm not going to listen to anyone that gets in my face and calls me a "p#ssy." How about you? Do you respond well to that??

Why on earth are you "taking the bait"?!
Why are you so concerned what they think that you need to reply in such a way?
Why are you taking it personally?

You are basically encouraging more of the same creating a thread that you said you dont want to see.

Its so funny that by retorting to every post you are helping to get what you dont want lol. There is a hint a truth in what they are saying but it doesnt apply to all. So like you advised to others just ignore the comments like "water running off a duck's back".

No malicious intent meant here by the way.

[GlennR]

Keith, from what I've seen, you usually try to stand up and speak out when you see someone being treated unfairly on this forum ...even when you don't necessarily agree with them. I admire that. On the other hand, you have to hold your temper if you want to elevate the quality of this discussion. Check out the quote below. You totally got sucked into a pointless fight. Don't take the bait. You don't need to.We all read that post. Just ignore the rude and trollish comments, or at least respond with dignity! We will back you.

And that was my pint grumble, Keith sees it as personal and I, and many others, don't

Whilst SR made some good points he did, admittedly , come across as a big crass but, hey, so be it.... The
Points he made still stand

[anerlich]

This is an open forum.

Some people who don't do WC come in and are rather, er, surprised by the antics of us all here.

I for one don't mind their suggestions and sometimes their input is excellent. Sanjuro and Knifefighter are/were two good examples.

Not much point wishing WC people would cross train or fight with other stylists when you're not even going to let them on the forum.

I gave up expecting sensible conversation and useful input here a long time ago (though occasionally I'm pleasantly surprised) and usually just come here for amusement.

It's just a forum. Not the friggin' UN.

[Minghequan]

Obviously they don't. And the reactions are so extreme, it's actually kinda funny. But to get back to your OP, the only way forward is to consistently take the high road. We need to be respectful of each other ...in spite of the fact that we will often disagree. And when someone posts something that is really beyond the pale, we need to resist the urge to respond in kind or to engage in personal attacks. Instead, the rest of us need to come together out of a sense of fair play and call foul.

That's how it's done guys. Ignore the provocateurs and trolls. And if they persist, stand together and call foul. Can you do that?

I agree totally! Thank you!


When anyone posts something that reads like this, we all ought to call foul. Crude, hateful and sexist language like that does not persuade anybody of anything. It is just an attempt to elicit an equally over the top response. Too bad too, because SR actually had a legit point to make. But with that kind of language any point goes out the window.

So what do you say SR? Are you willing to make your points with some basic modicum of civility? If so you are welcome. If not, you really should hold back from hitting the "submit reply" button.

I agree again.

So guys can we do this the right way???



The only way forward is to consistently take the high road.


We need to be respectful of each other ...in spite of the fact that we will often disagree.

Are you guys willing to let go of your ego's, your stylistics bias and just try to work on what could be a real turning point for this entire forum?

If enough of us truly apply ourselves then the "Way Forward" will come to fruition and this forum may be a nicer place where people actually discuss the Martial Arts (it's original purpose!).

[Wayfaring]

So guys can we do this the right way???


Thanks for standing up as an agent of change. Respect.

From my perspective this forum always has issues with these topics:

1) My wing chun is older / better / more original than your wing chun
2) I can fight with wing chun
3) My chi sau practice teaches me to fight

Whenever topics float towards either of those 3 items, things seem to turn into a sh1t storm. What this shows me is that for the vast majority of WCK practitioners, they have a lot of illusion and drama surrounding their own self image regarding those topics. The inauthenticity surrounding those topics to me seems higher than the inauthenticity I perceive surrounding discussing other topics.

So I've been real rational and all defining the problem - now I'm going to throw down a challenge. If you post on this forum and get all heated over these topics, you have DRAMA in your life surrounding them and not REALITY. It is your own self image that is the problem, and no amount of "not bickering" is going to solve that. The only thing that will is you starting to become authentic and truthful regarding this drama.

My answers:

1. I have no idea really but stories are cool and can help me connect with the art
2. Depends on who I'm fighting
3. No. But neither does jumping rope and I like that too to help train for fighting because it helps my footwork.

[KPM]

Keith, from what I've seen, you usually try to stand up and speak out when you see someone being treated unfairly on this forum ...even when you don't necessarily agree with them. I admire that. On the other hand, you have to hold your temper if you want to elevate the quality of this discussion. Check out the quote below. You totally got sucked into a pointless fight. Don't take the bait. You don't need to.We all read that post. Just ignore the rude and trollish comments, or at least respond with dignity! We will back you.

Thank you Steve. Point taken. I guess Ron and I ARE a lot alike! We're both crazy and we both get a little overly passionate at times. ;) No offense Ron! But Steve you give good advice that I will try and follow from here on out. Thanks again!

[KPM]

This is an open forum.

Some people who don't do WC come in and are rather, er, surprised by the antics of us all here.

I for one don't mind their suggestions and sometimes their input is excellent. Sanjuro and Knifefighter are/were two good examples.

Not much point wishing WC people would cross train or fight with other stylists when you're not even going to let them on the forum.

I gave up expecting sensible conversation and useful input here a long time ago (though occasionally I'm pleasantly surprised) and usually just come here for amusement.

It's just a forum. Not the friggin' UN.

Yeah, you're right. Its just a forum. My mistake all along has been that I look upon the forum as a "virtual teahouse" so to speak. A place where some guys with the same interests gather to talk about what they do, shoot the sh!t and compare notes. Like in my original description on this thread....sitting around at a table at the local pub having a few drinks with friends and talking about Wing Chun. I thought the cool thing about it was I could sit around the table with a guy from Australia, another from Hong Kong, and another from Hungary all at the same time. And people interacting that way are going to be friendly but polite when they are talking to you face to face. They aren't going to storm into the group calling people names and upsetting the table without someone calling them on it, and calling them on it rather loudly! A non-Wing Chun guy is welcome at the table, but if he starts spouting anti-Wing Chun stuff the people around the table are going to speak up! Aren't they?

But that was my mistake. Obviously no one else here sees it that way. This is just a random forum that people come to for amusement and to slander others. So be it. From now on I have no friends and no buddies here. I will come here just for amusement and for the occasional exchange of information. That's it.

You want a drama queen analogy? In the past I have been Captain Kirk.....passionate, hoping to help and direct others, reactive, and a little loud. From now on I will be Spock....cool, calculating, rational, and dispassionate. :cool:

[deejaye72]

The WC forum is kind of a running joke, I am sorry to say.
The pointless bickering and arguments about the most insignificant of crap is truly mind boggling.
Some WC people are under the impression that their system is SO MUCH better/different than any other, they are closed minded and arrogant AND ignorant about the reality of MA.
This whole forum gets into arguments about things that anywhere else in any other circumstances, would be the biggest joke ever.
I think you guys just need to grow up, stop trying to be such prima donas and simple realize that it is OK to be different, Its OK to have different ways of doing WC and that there is NO "real" WC.
WC is about fighting, every MA is about fighting regardless of the extra baggage anyone tries to tatted to it ( for whatever reason).
The first step in you guys growing up is to realize THAT.
The next step is to stop listening and giving and sort of credibility to those that can NOT ( or their students can not) "practice what they preach", ie:
See it taught, see it fought.
If someone comes up with some "theory" and they or their students CAN'T demonstrate for real, simply realize that what can't be fought with deserves as little consideration as possible.

It also wouldn't hurt you WC guys to support your fellow WC peeps that are ACTUALLY FIGHTING with WC.

Of course, if you feel that WC is NOT a fighting art, that it was NOT developed to fight with and that fighting is NOT the purpose of a system who's principles and techniques are about hitting and hurting other people, well then...

Forget all I just wrote and go back to your La-La land.

WC is no more and no less than any other MA, get over yourselves and grow up ( and grow a pair while you are at it).


great post! amen brother!

[Vajramusti]

1. this is just a forum where all kinds of people come and go. Not the end of the world if the forum disappears.
Lots of highly skilled wing chun people I know are not on the forum.
2. I stay- just to nibble at the edges and perhaps to respond to some things that I may care about,
3. Example- I have not argued with Robert Chu for a long time. But he often has opinions that are different from mine.
Two recent expressions- a. he is wrong on Ho Kam Ming's knowledge of the kwan.I have seen HKM kwan work and bjd work b. what went into Ip man's
knowledge ( the Leung Bik issue). I do not regard him or Hendrik or Sergio as historians of all of wing chun.
4. aspects of wing chun could be adapted for sport- but traditional Ip Man wing chun was not and is not a sport.
Not all of Ip man's students were equally exposed to his direct teaching.
Extensive chain store wing chun and video watching has ruined much of the art There are still some very good people doing the art
5..Wing chun is not a collection of techniques though personal and situational techniques can emerge with skill development.
6 we no longer need insights from crane and snake to develop good wing chun . The key is getting started with a good teacher
and practicing regularly and correctly and trying out things without breaking the law.
7 the wing chun tool box is extensive and stands a good chance in dealing with athleticism or the decline of it.
8 any one can have opinions and internet people usually do. One's own development is the key. Wing chun is not the only way to fight.
Good versions of other arts could be better than bad wing chun. Discussing thing in civil fashion can improve dialogue,

[Grumblegeezer]

Thanks for standing up as an agent of change. Respect.

From my perspective this forum always has issues with these topics:

1) My wing chun is older / better / more original than your wing chun
2) I can fight with wing chun
3) My chi sau practice teaches me to fight



My answers:

1. I have no idea really but stories are cool and can help me connect with the art
2. Depends on who I'm fighting
3. No. But neither does jumping rope and I like that too to help train for fighting because it helps my footwork.

These are my answers too. But I'm interested in other points of view as well. I love to hear from both the hyper traditionalists and the progressive pro fighting/sparring/"pressure testing" faction. I believe we are all Wing Chun. I do my WC and I might not like what somebody else does. I'll disagree with them and tell them why. But I'm still glad they post. I'm here to share, learn, ...even to rant sometimes. But not to be a troll.

Those of you who agree, let's take back this forum. It'll be tough but it's possible. We must all practice ...."anti-trolling"!!!!

[KPM]

Those of you who agree, let's take back this forum. It'll be tough but it's possible. We must all practice ...."anti-trolling"!!!!

Take it back from what? I've been fighting this battle for nearly a year now, trying to get people to be nicer and more appropriate in their postings. No one listened to me or supported me. You won't get much agreement because people here do NOT back each other up. Like I said, I was very obviously wrong to think of this forum as some kind of community. It is definitely not. It is just a forum. It is an open forum where it is Ok for people to hide behind keyboards and fake names and say anything they want to say. It is an open forum where it is Ok to be just as rude and inappropriate as you want and say things to people that you would never say in a face to face situation. It is just an open forum where anyone is welcome to post and slander others with names and accusations without providing any explanation or evidence.

I was very obviously wrong to think I could speak up on behalf of regular posters here with some kind of common opinion or voice. It has become VERY obvious that I cannot count on anyone here to back me up or support me on any consistent basis. It has become very clear that I CAN expect that anyone I interact with here is very capable of turning on me in the very next post.

This is an open forum, not a community. There are no friends here. There is no one to count on here. There are no rules here. I will no longer come to anyone else's defense when I see something that seems unfair or false. That has only gotten me into trouble. I no longer care, since it is evident that no one else here does. I am done.

I will still come around for "amusement" as anerlich puts it. Maybe occasionally there will be some good information to pick up. But that is becoming a more and more infrequent occasion as the people that may have valuable things to say are chased away.

So, "grumblegeezer" I may have agreed with you 2 days ago. But its too little too late as far as I'm concerned. I'm done.

That's it. Spock mode....engaged. Carry on.

[Frost]

Take it back from what? I've been fighting this battle for nearly a year now, trying to get people to be nicer and more appropriate in their postings. No one listened to me or supported me. You won't get much agreement because people here do NOT back each other up. Like I said, I was very obviously wrong to think of this forum as some kind of community. It is definitely not. It is just a forum. It is an open forum where it is Ok for people to hide behind keyboards and fake names and say anything they want to say. It is an open forum where it is Ok to be just as rude and inappropriate as you want and say things to people that you would never say in a face to face situation. It is just an open forum where anyone is welcome to post and slander others with names and accusations without providing any explanation or evidence.

I was very obviously wrong to think I could speak up on behalf of regular posters here with some kind of common opinion or voice. It has become VERY obvious that I cannot count on anyone here to back me up or support me on any consistent basis. It has become very clear that I CAN expect that anyone I interact with here is very capable of turning on me in the very next post.

This is an open forum, not a community. There are no friends here. There is no one to count on here. There are no rules here. I will no longer come to anyone else's defense when I see something that seems unfair or false. That has only gotten me into trouble. I no longer care, since it is evident that no one else here does. I am done.

I will still come around for "amusement" as anerlich puts it. Maybe occasionally there will be some good information to pick up. But that is becoming a more and more infrequent occasion as the people that may have valuable things to say are chased away.

So, "grumblegeezer" I may have agreed with you 2 days ago. But its too little too late as far as I'm concerned. I'm done.

That's it. Spock mode....engaged. Carry on.

get off your high horse YOU are hardly blameless you spent weeks going after Alan for not using proper wing Chun in his guys fights, even going so far as to starting a thread in the main forum hoping others would gang up in him for gods sake so forgive me for not feeling sorry for you...

[Grumblegeezer]

get off your high horse YOU are hardly blameless you spent weeks going after Alan for not using proper wing Chun in his guys fights, even going so far as to starting a thread in the main forum hoping others would gang up in him for gods sake so forgive me for not feeling sorry for you...

In all fairness, While KPM and BPWT did drag on ...and on ...and on over on that other thread re how much classical 'chun was visible in Josh Kaldani's recent fight, they had a legitimate question: Namely can you effectively use WC that "looks like WC" in MMA competition or not.

I didn't take that as a personal attack on Alan Orr. In fact the thread began with a lot of respect. Then like always, it degenerated. People on both sides have a hard time accepting the other guy's right to his own opinion. So what's the big deal? Argument is interesting. All we are asking for is to maintain a civil tone. And that only can be done if you regulars start exercising your collective influence. If you want to clean this place up a bit, you can. Or not. It's your call.

[sanjuro_ronin]

And that was my pint grumble, Keith sees it as personal and I, and many others, don't

Whilst SR made some good points he did, admittedly , come across as a big crass but, hey, so be it.... The
Points he made still stand

My whole point was to BE CRASS and RUDE because that is how this whole forum is !
We have been trying to fix this forum for years, YEARS !
It's basically a waste to time because there is nothing wrong with this form per say, it is the POSTERS that need to get a out of their small, isolated and delusional chi-sao infested world and realize that there is NOTHING special about them or WC, NOTHING at all.
I don't think taking the high road will work because, well lets face it, we are MA and we like to fight.
The main problem here is, as I stated in the beginning, people are spew off their version of reality as the ONLY reality and degrading other peoples AND they have NOTHING to back up their version other than " I say so".
MA are about DOING people. If you wanna make the statement that yours is the real WC, SHOW it don't say it.
If you want to make the statement that WC must be like this and anything else is not WC, then SHOW IT, don't say it.
After you have proven it in the ONLY way ANY MA can ever be proven ( and we ALL know what way that is), then you can sit on your ass and pontificate.
Till then, shut up pr put up and the very least you can do is respect those that ARE putting up.
Until THAT mindset is the MAIN mindset in this forum, it will be the same drama filled joke that it has been for the last few years.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is an open forum.

Some people who don't do WC come in and are rather, er, surprised by the antics of us all here.

I for one don't mind their suggestions and sometimes their input is excellent. Sanjuro and Knifefighter are/were two good examples.

Not much point wishing WC people would cross train or fight with other stylists when you're not even going to let them on the forum.

I gave up expecting sensible conversation and useful input here a long time ago (though occasionally I'm pleasantly surprised) and usually just come here for amusement.

It's just a forum. Not the friggin' UN.

As most of you veteran know, I do have a WC background.
I outgrew WC, not because it was a bad system, its a great system ( and I still use quite a few of its principles, principles that all southern hands have BTW), it was just not a perfect fit for me.
I have been here for years, been a moderator for years, been here through ALL the drama, and then some.
In terms of experience with this forum, I have as much, if not more, than the majority of posters here.
Listen to me or not, I don't care THAT much ( I do care or else I wouldn't be posting now) BUT I care enough about WC and some of you guys here that I believe you deserve a better forum then this one is.
The problem is that there is a "enabler mindset" of armchair warrior that is like a virus and it is killing this forum.
The sad part is that you ALL know that.

[tc101]

In all fairness, While KPM and BPWT did drag on ...and on ...and on over on that other thread re how much classical 'chun was visible in Josh Kaldani's recent fight, they had a legitimate question: Namely can you effectively use WC that "looks like WC" in MMA competition or not.

I didn't take that as a personal attack on Alan Orr. In fact the thread began with a lot of respect. Then like always, it degenerated. People on both sides have a hard time accepting the other guy's right to his own opinion. So what's the big deal? Argument is interesting. All we are asking for is to maintain a civil tone. And that only can be done if you regulars start exercising your collective influence. If you want to clean this place up a bit, you can. Or not. It's your call.

The answer to the question of can you use wing chun that "looks like WC" cannot be found on a forum in discussion with people who are not fighting. Do you not see that? How can they possibly know?

You may not have taken it as a personal attack on Alan Orr but I can tell you from being involved with boxing trainers and fighters that fighters and trainers have a different perspective than people who question them and their skills from their arm chairs. Here's the thing this is not an academic question for guys like Orr like it is to most people here. He is out there putting his reputation his livelihood his skill as a trainer on the line. His fighters are doing the same. It is very personal to them. So when they here guys afraid to even put on gloves say things like yeah congrats on winning but that's really not good wing chun since you are not doing it the way I think it should be done and I think you should do this and that instead you might see why they would not take kindly to it and respect those opinions.

[Vajramusti]

As most of you veteran know, I do have a WC background.
I outgrew WC, not because it was a bad system, its a great system ( and I still use quite a few of its principles, principles that all southern hands have BTW), it was just not a perfect fit for


((( No problem SR. I am not in your lineage but civil discussion across lineages is more than ok with me))

I have been here for years, been a moderator for years, been here through ALL the drama, and then some.
In terms of experience with this forum, I have as much, if not more, than the majority of posters here.

((True))

Listen to me or not, I don't care THAT much ( I do care or else I wouldn't be posting now) BUT I care enough about WC and some of you guys here that I believe you deserve a better forum then this one is.

((True))


The problem is that there is a "enabler mindset" of armchair warrior that is like a virus and it is killing this forum.
The sad part is that you ALL know that.


((True. Plus the often anonymous self selection of members as experts plus the quick retorts without engaging the brain that is part of the nature of quite a few internet forums. While the volume of "martial talk" is less the moderation there is a damper on egos/))

[KPM]

My whole point was to BE CRASS and RUDE because that is how this whole forum is !
We have been trying to fix this forum for years, YEARS !

This is true. And it is because of people exactly like you who make no effort to be anything but CRASS and RUDE. How will anything ever change?

It's basically a waste to time because there is nothing wrong with this form per say, it is the POSTERS that need to get a out of their small, isolated and delusional chi-sao infested world and realize that there is NOTHING special about them or WC, NOTHING at all.

I don't recall anyone saying WCK is "special". But this is a Wing Chun forum. We talk about Wing Chun here. If you don't like what is said and don't practice Wing Chun and take offense at what people say about their Wing Chun and cannot post without being crass and rude.....then go elsewhere. Simple fix!


If you wanna make the statement that yours is the real WC, SHOW it don't say it.
If you want to make the statement that WC must be like this and anything else is not WC, then SHOW IT, don't say it.
After you have proven it in the ONLY way ANY MA can ever be proven ( and we ALL know what way that is), then you can sit on your ass and pontificate.
Till then, shut up pr put up and the very least you can do is respect those that ARE putting up.

I hate to keep pointing out the obvious, but this is a discussion forum. We are here to discuss. That implies "saying" or writing what we think. Its very difficult to "show" anything in such a format and very few people have video footage to share. Heck, even the people that pontificate about "showing" and "proving" what one can do have never bothered to post video footage. Again....discussion forum......we d...I...s....c....u...s....s things here. If you don't like that, then go elsewhere.


I have been here for years, been a moderator for years, been here through ALL the drama, and then some.
In terms of experience with this forum, I have as much, if not more, than the majority of posters here.

Yes. I know that. And I know that you should know better. You come onto a thread about the "Way Forward" and your response is designed to offend and inflame any WCK people here. Doesn't sound to me like you learned much from your years of moderating and going through all the similar drama.


Listen to me or not, I don't care THAT much ( I do care or else I wouldn't be posting now) BUT I care enough about WC and some of you guys here that I believe you deserve a better forum then this one is.

Which is why you starting out with such an inflammatory post? I don't believe you. I don't care what you think. You owe no one any allegiance here and they owe you none. There are no friends here. This is an open forum where anyone can say anything they like. So don't say you are trying to help when you are one of the main people contributing to the problem.


The problem is that there is a "enabler mindset" of armchair warrior that is like a virus and it is killing this forum.
The sad part is that you ALL know that.

What I know is that this is a discussion forum, this isn't youtube. We come here to discuss. When discussions are not conducted in a civil manner, when people post inflammatory statements, when people won't acknowledge good points that someone else has made, when people feel free to be just as rude and crass and insulting as they like, and when all the people that have good things to say have been chased away by such behavior.....THAT is what kills a forum.

[sanjuro_ronin]

My whole point was to BE CRASS and RUDE because that is how this whole forum is !
We have been trying to fix this forum for years, YEARS !

This is true. And it is because of people exactly like you who make no effort to be anything but CRASS and RUDE. How will anything ever change?

It's basically a waste to time because there is nothing wrong with this form per say, it is the POSTERS that need to get a out of their small, isolated and delusional chi-sao infested world and realize that there is NOTHING special about them or WC, NOTHING at all.

I don't recall anyone saying WCK is "special". But this is a Wing Chun forum. We talk about Wing Chun here. If you don't like what is said and don't practice Wing Chun and take offense at what people say about their Wing Chun and cannot post without being crass and rude.....then go elsewhere. Simple fix!


If you wanna make the statement that yours is the real WC, SHOW it don't say it.
If you want to make the statement that WC must be like this and anything else is not WC, then SHOW IT, don't say it.
After you have proven it in the ONLY way ANY MA can ever be proven ( and we ALL know what way that is), then you can sit on your ass and pontificate.
Till then, shut up pr put up and the very least you can do is respect those that ARE putting up.

I hate to keep pointing out the obvious, but this is a discussion forum. We are here to discuss. That implies "saying" or writing what we think. Its very difficult to "show" anything in such a format and very few people have video footage to share. Heck, even the people that pontificate about "showing" and "proving" what one can do have never bothered to post video footage. Again....discussion forum......we d...I...s....c....u...s....s things here. If you don't like that, then go elsewhere.

The problem is that you guys are NOT here to discuss, you are here to pontificate and promote your lineages.
I've seen this over and over and over.
In this age anyone willing to can SHOW anything they want, we know this for a fact.
Those that don't show, don't do it because they simply don't want to.
I don't hold all auctioneers to the same standard, not all are able to record and share because many are not part of a school or have retired or are simply doing their own thing and love WC.
I hold those that DO post clips of stuff accountable of posting PRACTICAL and REALISTIC examples of what they are "preaching".
Hendrick is a prime example, he will post a 20 min video of him pontificating about "snake engine" in WC BUT is unwilling to post even 30 seconds of it ACTUALLY BEING DONE !

That there is a prime example of why this forum has become what it has become.

Too much talk about the 30 deg angle of an elbow and not enough USING that elbow !

[Rover]

I know why u wc guys are tend to act like fascistes.The reason is so well known mottos of wc which are pinned to most of yours' minds.
-designed to overcome shaolin system.
-it has mechanics,its about science,who we are to belittle it.
-there is no better system than wc in the World,cant be and this cant be discussed.
-centerline,you must attack there,or you are not wc.
No offense,i check this part of forum sometimes and most of the quarrels i have seen are seem to be built upon these mottos.

[KPM]

The problem is that you guys are NOT here to discuss, you are here to pontificate and promote your lineages.
I've seen this over and over and over.

If you don't like it. Go elsewhere. Simple fix.

In this age anyone willing to can SHOW anything they want, we know this for a fact.
Those that don't show, don't do it because they simply don't want to.

No on here has any obligations to show or prove ANYTHING to ANYONE else. This is an open forum. We are here to discuss.......


Hendrick is a prime example, he will post a 20 min video of him pontificating about "snake engine" in WC BUT is unwilling to post even 30 seconds of it ACTUALLY BEING DONE !

You don't have to watch Hendrik's videos. You can put Hendrik on the "ignore" mode and never have to read another post by him again.

That there is a prime example of why this forum has become what it has become.

No. The prime example of why this forum has become what it has become was displayed by YOU on your initial posts on this thread. But you don't seem to get that.


Too much talk about the 30 deg angle of an elbow and not enough USING that elbow !

Uh, again, not to keep stating the obvious.....but this is a DISCUSSION FORUM. We come here to discuss just how we are USING that elbow. I'm not using that elbow that way while I'm typing, now am I? ;)

[KPM]

I know why u wc guys are tend to act like fascistes.The reason is so well known mottos of wc which are pinned to most of yours' minds.
-designed to overcome shaolin system.
-it has mechanics,its about science,who we are to belittle it.
-there is no better system than wc in the World,cant be and this cant be discussed.
-centerline,you must attack there,or you are not wc.
No offense,i check this part of forum sometimes and most of the quarrels i have seen are seem to be built upon these mottos.

If you don't like. Don't come back. Simple fix.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The problem is that you guys are NOT here to discuss, you are here to pontificate and promote your lineages.
I've seen this over and over and over.

If you don't like it. Go elsewhere. Simple fix.

In this age anyone willing to can SHOW anything they want, we know this for a fact.
Those that don't show, don't do it because they simply don't want to.

No on here has any obligations to show or prove ANYTHING to ANYONE else. This is an open forum. We are here to discuss.......


Hendrick is a prime example, he will post a 20 min video of him pontificating about "snake engine" in WC BUT is unwilling to post even 30 seconds of it ACTUALLY BEING DONE !

You don't have to watch Hendrik's videos. You can put Hendrik on the "ignore" mode and never have to read another post by him again.

That there is a prime example of why this forum has become what it has become.

No. The prime example of why this forum has become what it has become was displayed by YOU on your initial posts on this thread. But you don't seem to get that.


Too much talk about the 30 deg angle of an elbow and not enough USING that elbow !

Uh, again, not to keep stating the obvious.....but this is a DISCUSSION FORUM. We come here to discuss just how we are USING that elbow. I'm not using that elbow that way while I'm typing, now am I? ;)



Way forward indeed.
Rest my case.

[KPM]

Way forward indeed.
Rest my case.

Well, I hope you at least learned something. It makes very little logical sense to complain about how people choose to represent what they do in a discussion forum and demand that they prove it or back it up in some way. This is not youtube. We are here to talk. It doesn't make sense to say that you're being rude and crass and inflammatory because everyone here is rude and crass and inflammatory. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. If someone is overstating their case about their Wing Chun, then point it out to them and give examples. Don't just call them a P*ssy.

[Jimbo]

Let me start off by saying I am not a WC practitioner, although I have sparred with some advanced WC guys. I respect the art of WC, it just wasn't my cup of tea.

Now, how many guys have had a teacher or a coach (in MA or otherwise) who (with good reason) chewed you out? In my youth, I went through a period of arrogance, and one of my teachers was well aware of it. Finally one day, he took me aside and basically read me the riot act; among other things, he told me I was no better nor worse than anyone else, and that I needed to grow up. He said some other choice things in his verbal dressing-down that I won't go into. It was hard to stand there listening to him, and felt a bit humiliating. In my mind I felt defiant, but later on, as I had time to really self-examine about it, I knew that everything he said was 100% TRUE. There wasn't one thing he said that I could have refuted or honestly seen as malicious. He said it the way he did because he wanted me to WAKE UP. And to this day I remain thankful to him for that.

Civility always feels better, but sometimes people need a kick in the pants. Sometimes "Why don't we all just get along" doesn't work. Sure, SR said a couple of harsh things, but IMO he didn't say anything that isn't true for some of the people on the forum. If what SR said offends you, have you ever stopped to consider if what he said is true? Was he trying to be malicious, or was he trying to wake people up? SR is definitely NOT a troll.

Oh, and BTW, nobody complains when WC practitioners post in the Southern forum, the main forum, the Shaolin forum, the MMA forum, or any others. Because everybody can have something of value to contribute, if they choose to (except malicious trolls, of course). So take what I have to add or not. And if what I had to contribute here is offensive, or it's not worthy of consideration because I'm not a WC person, that's your choice. You can learn things from many people and sources you may not have thought of, if you remove the blinders. This is MA after all. It isn't holding hands around the campfire singing "Kumbayah". Part of MA is developing a thicker skin.

[KPM]

Thanks for your contribution Jimbo. Funny how the only people that have something to say here aren't even Wing Chun people.

Now, how many guys have had a teacher or a coach (in MA or otherwise) who (with good reason) chewed you out?

No one here is my teacher, my coach, or my friend. No one here has the right or responsibility to "chew me out." What may be acceptable from someone you know and respect is simply rude and impolite from someone you don't know.

Sure, SR said a couple of harsh things, but IMO he didn't say anything that isn't true for some of the people on the forum. If what SR said offends you, have you ever stopped to consider if what he said is true? Was he trying to be malicious, or was he trying to wake people up? SR is definitely NOT a troll.

Well Ok. Let's look at what he said.

they are closed minded and arrogant AND ignorant about the reality of MA.
I think you guys just need to grow up, stop trying to be such prima donas
get over yourselves and grow up ( and grow a pair while you are at it).
Maybe you WC guys should trade in the sand in your vagina for a pair of balls
Everyone else sees you guys as the armchair warriors and drama queens that you are.
You guys are lucky than ANYONE wants to moderate this desolate waste of cyber space that is populated by a bunch of whiny pussies.

More than a "couple" of harsh things, don't you think? So you think its all true, do you? All the name calling....accurate? If you don't like what is said in this forum, you don't have come here either. If you can honestly support things like SR said above, then you are also part of the problem and not part of the solution.



Oh, and BTW, nobody complains when WC practitioners post in the Southern forum, the main forum, the Shaolin forum, the MMA forum, or any others. Because everybody can have something of value to contribute, if they choose to

And no one complains here when a non-WC guy posts, as long as he has something of value to contribute.

So take what I have to add or not.

Thanks, but you didn't add much. Again, it is not acceptable to be rude and crass and disrespectful and impolite just because "everyone is" or because you are "trying to make a point." Thinking that way is part of the problem, not part of the solution.


Part of MA is developing a thicker skin.

Part of MA is learning to treat people respectfully. In CMA circles it is known as "Mo Duk." To come here and write things from a keyboard that you would never say to someone face to face is a bit wrong and shows bad "Mo Duk." Don't you think?

[Jimbo]

KPM,

I neither like nor dislike what goes on in this forum. I simply gave an opinion based on observations and experience. I was attempting to help. Clearly what I said means nothing to you, and that's fine with me. And I thought my post was pretty civil. I thought my analogy would be clear.

You seem quick to take offense at a lot of things. I understand being passionate about something, but do you not see a pattern here? Isn't part of wu de (mo duk) also about developing a calm mind in the face of conflict and adversity...in this case, opinions and personalities that differ (widely) from your own?

[KPM]

I neither like nor dislike what goes on in this forum. I simply gave an opinion based on observations and experience. I was attempting to help. Clearly what I said means nothing to you, and that's fine with me.

Your opinion was essentially "yeah, what he said!" Thank you. But that doesn't help much.

And I thought my post was pretty civil.

Yes. Your post was civil and I thank you for that. But you also tried to justify what SR said, which was not at all civil. If you read what I have written here, that has been my theme. But you and SR and Frost don't seem to think that it is an important theme. So be it. I don't care. But don't expect me to agree with your seeming acceptance of rude and impolite behavior when used "to make a point."


You seem quick to take offense at a lot of things. I understand being passionate about something, but do you not see a pattern here? Isn't part of wu de (mo duk) also about developing a calm mind in the face of conflict and adversity...in this case, opinions and personalities that differ (widely) from your own?

I will refer you back to post #34 on this very thread. And I will continue to put forth that the "way forward" is to treat each other with respect.

[Rover]

If you don't like. Don't come back. Simple fix.

You are not able to take even slightest criticism,huh Mr Hypocrite?

[GlennR]

Well, I hope you at least learned something. It makes very little logical sense to complain about how people choose to represent what they do in a discussion forum and demand that they prove it or back it up in some way. This is not youtube. We are here to talk. It doesn't make sense to say that you're being rude and crass and inflammatory because everyone here is rude and crass and inflammatory. Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. If someone is overstating their case about their Wing Chun, then point it out to them and give examples. Don't just call them a P*ssy.

P u s s y? No....... whiney little b i t c h ..... yes

Honestly Keith, get over yourself

[Kellen Bassette]

I totally agree with KPM that people shouldn't post things they wouldn't say face to face, but that's the reality of the internet. Not just here, but everywhere, read the comments on Youtube or a Yahoo news story, no matter what the subject.
Ironically, you seem the same sort of behavior from people with real reputations, who use their real names here. I am almost certain they wouldn't speak in the same manner in face to face setting. Aliases and anonymity seem to have little to do with it, people just feel like they can say anything they want from a keyboard; and often do.
I guess it is what it is, sometimes it's ridiculous, sometimes it's entertaining.

[KPM]

You are not able to take even slightest criticism,huh Mr Hypocrite?

You can criticize me all you want. I don't care. But do it politely. Don't call me names. That's not criticism. That's slander.

[KPM]

P u s s y? No....... whiney little b i t c h ..... yes

Honestly Keith, get over yourself

Honestly Glenn. I'm trying to get across a message that is falling on pretty deaf ears. That message, one that grumblegeezer also put out, was that the way forward is to treat each other with respect and not post in an inflammatory fashion. So thank you for being on board and calling me a whiney little b i t c h. Would you say that to my face? Like I said before, people here do NOT back each other up. Not even the Wing Chun regulars. You prove my point.

[Minghequan]

Really guys! This is the best you can do?

This is the best you can be?

Is it any wonder our arts are in decline?

Maybe not in number and maybe not in popularity but most certainly in ethics, integrity, essence and spirit.

Makes one ashamed to be a "Martial Artist"

This is not about Wing Chun, Hapkido, White Crane, JuJutsu, Mauy Thai, Karate, Judo, Capoeria, Taekwondo or South Mongolian Chicken Wrestling!!!

Its about the decay in spirit, in ethics in how we treat each other, how we respond to discussion and quite frankly I thought you would all be better than this but it seems I was wrong.

It seems you are all happy with the denigration of the arts and each other, happy with the bickering and Internet Pi#sing competitions, the c@ck measuring, the ego and self-importance and that this forum is beyond change for the better ..... I really thought you people would rise to this rather than more of the same.

Very disappointing!


Sad, Really Sad!

[Firehawk4]

I think alot of people just practice martial arts for compotition and selfdefense and dont practice budhhisim or follow some chinese or Japanese or Asian code of conduct rules like the moral laws of Shaolin that could be what part of the problem is .

[GlennR]

Honestly Glenn. I'm trying to get across a message that is falling on pretty deaf ears. That message, one that grumblegeezer also put out, was that the way forward is to treat each other with respect and not post in an inflammatory fashion. So thank you for being on board and calling me a whiney little b i t c h. Would you say that to my face? Like I said before, people here do NOT back each other up. Not even the Wing Chun regulars. You prove my point.

No, what ive proven is some people are more emotionally invested in this forum, and their opinions, than others.

Mate, its a Martial Arts Forum, not some quasi-religious ethics love group.

The whole "moving forward" thing is based on EVERYONE having the same view on what the forum is for, and that just isnt the case.

For me i log on for a laugh, a bit of banter, the occasional insight into WC (and other arts) and to try and come up with better smart a r s e comments than anerlich (thats hard in itself!!)
Oh, and to rubbish Hendrik and his nonsense.

But heres the thing, i dont lose any sleep about it, i dont start threads on moving forward and i certainly dont re title myself the "Mr Spock" on the forum.

So shoot me if im letting the "forum down"

[GlennR]

Really guys! This is the best you can do?

This is the best you can be?

Is it any wonder our arts are in decline?

Maybe not in number and maybe not in popularity but most certainly in ethics, integrity, essence and spirit.

Makes one ashamed to be a "Martial Artist"

This is not about Wing Chun, Hapkido, White Crane, JuJutsu, Mauy Thai, Karate, Judo, Capoeria, Taekwondo or South Mongolian Chicken Wrestling!!!

Its about the decay in spirit, in ethics in how we treat each other, how we respond to discussion and quite frankly I thought you would all be better than this but it seems I was wrong.

It seems you are all happy with the denigration of the arts and each other, happy with the bickering and Internet Pi#sing competitions, the c@ck measuring, the ego and self-importance and that this forum is beyond change for the better ..... I really thought you people would rise to this rather than more of the same.

Very disappointing!


Sad, Really Sad!

Ron, refer top my previous post

[anerlich]

For me i log on for a laugh, a bit of banter, the occasional insight into WC (and other arts) and to try and come up with better smart a r s e comments than anerlich (thats hard in itself!!)

GlennR, you are holding your own in the smartar$e comments stakes :D

This forum is not the weather vane for the state of MA or TCMA. What you see here has little to do with the state of anything out in the real world.

[anerlich]

I think alot of people just practice martial arts for compotition and selfdefense and dont practice budhhisim or follow some chinese or Japanese or Asian code of conduct rules like the moral laws of Shaolin that could be what part of the problem is .

I don't regard that as a problem. If you need an external code of conduct to know how to behave well something is wrong with you.

[KPM]

Really guys! This is the best you can do?

This is the best you can be?


Sad, Really Sad!

What do you want Ron? This thread started out talking about treating each other with respect and not posting things you wouldn't say face to face. Then people chime in that do exactly the opposite. I've been respectfully pointing this out to them, yet I still fall under heavy criticism and no one backs me up, not even you or grumblegeezer who had the same message. Do we sit back and let people ignore that message and feel justified in being rude and crass and disrespectful because "everyone is doing it" or because "I'm trying to make a point"??? Or do we speak out? I spoke out and look at the way even some of the Wing Chun regulars have responded. Calling me a "whiney b i t c h" simply because I continue to try to get the message across.

Again, it has become exceptionally clear that this is just an open discussion forum where people are free to post anything they want and say anything at all to people from behind a fake name and a keyboard. Its Ok to be a "smarta$$" for one's own amusement and to be just as rude and crass and disrepectful as you want to be. Don't you agree? So why are we making this effort? Nothing is going to change here. Why are you surprised Ron? Its obvious that no one has anything invested in this forum, emotionally or otherwise. No one really cares to clean things up or make things better. So be it. I'm done trying as well.

[KPM]

The whole "moving forward" thing is based on EVERYONE having the same view on what the forum is for, and that just isnt the case.

This is true. And when people don't even want to try and get on board with a better view of what the forum is for and how to behave here, nothing will ever change. Things are likely to just get worse.


But heres the thing, i dont lose any sleep about it, i dont start threads on moving forward and i certainly dont re title myself the "Mr Spock" on the forum.

But you are perfectly willing to post in threads on "moving forward" and take part in shooting down someone else's efforts. And "Spock" seems just as good as tc101, sanjuro ronin, firehawk4, vajramusti, etc to me.

So shoot me if im letting the "forum down"

No need. Again, you just prove my point that this is simply an open forum and not any kind of a community. You owe no one here any allegiance. No one here is your friend. Do and say anything you want. Be as rude and disrepectful as you want. There are no rules and no standards.

[Minghequan]

Okay since everyone else is "telling it like it is" I may as well do the same.

KPM I agree with you defending yourself. I never said no to this. Say your point, get it out there , let your detractors know and then let it be. If they choose to continue then less power to them! They will ultimately be seen for what they are "By their own words and behaviour let them be known"

As for who cares ... Well I do as this forum is whether if you like it or not, representative of the wider Martial Arts Community and in part representative of the Magazine and its ethics as it is the Kungfu Magazine Forum (just look at the logo above each page!). How long do you think the Magazine would last if everyone carried on like you guys??? Pathetic!

8542

But its seems by and large I'm the only one.

So what do I see?

A bunch of whinger, martial arts politicians, people with major ego issues and a chip on each shoulder (Well-Balanced?).

People who really don't give a Sh#t about the arts but who in the main only give a Sh#t about their own pathetic "Point-Scoring" and self images.

I see gutless people not willing to put their names behind their posts.

I see "Sh#ts-Stirrers" who exist for just that!

I see people who spend more time training the "Keyboard-Fu" then actually training the Martial Arts! (One only has to see the amount of times and speed in which they post!)

Man I wouldn't want to train with just about most of you as your too far removed from the ethics of the martial arts and if you run your schools like you run your mouths here, then I'd run, not walk, but run as fast and as far as I could to get away from you and your schools!

Don't want to raise the bar? Don't want to at least suck it up, put your own feelings and self-importance aside and actually make a effort to at the very least improve this board even in only a small way? Fine! Your choice.

But don't tell me your Martial Artists who care about the Martial Arts and those who may choose to study with you as you most definitely are not!

So off you all go! Have at it! Go on, have another go at me too (you won't be able to control yourselves!) ....., Go on, put me down for the lowest you can! If it makes you feel like the "Better Person" then hit, whine, whinge, swear, carry-on, put-down, call names, bully and do your best to make a point as if that is all that matters!

But don't call what you do Martial Arts!

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys don't seem to get it and I can understand that because you are looking from the inside out and have a very vested interest in being right and everyone else being wrong.
It's like when someone makes a thread showing their Sifu or someone they think has the "real WC" and as soon as it gets even a LITTLE bit criticized, they delete the thread.
MA "WUDE" or "BUSHIDO" or any other code is about honesty, about being self-critical and calling a " spade a spade".
Disregard what I have said, that's fine.
It won't change that the fact this forum has all the troubles that it has ( and the other forums don't even have 1/4 of the drama) is outlined in the reasons I spelled out.
YOU guys are the problem because you have ultior motives and agendas to push your WC as THE WC and everyone else's is "wrong".
THAT is the SOURCE of the problem and the manifestation of it is when you guys act like whiny little school girls when you are called on your BS.
Until you accept that is the problem and grow up, it won't change.

That is the last I will say on this matter, other than this:
I am so tempted to ask Gene for moderating powers on this forum because you guys SO DESERVE to get a taste of zero tolerance.
Sihing is just to nice to you guys and Gene and David think you all have mental problems, so...

[Minghequan]

I am so tempted to ask Gene for moderating powers on this forum because you guys SO DESERVE to get a taste of zero tolerance.

Please, please do so. I think that is not just what the Wing Chun forum needs but the whole forum!

[Vajramusti]

GlennR, you are holding your own in the smartar$e comments stakes :D

This forum is not the weather vane for the state of MA or TCMA. What you see here has little to do with the state of anything out in the real world.
------------------------------------------------------

True

[Wayfaring]

Please, please do so. I think that is not just what the Wing Chun forum needs but the whole forum!

A few years back I actually talked with Gene and Dave about NOT doing this. The reason why is because right now this is an accurate reflection of the wing chun community. People DO have the illusions their WCK is the best, oldest, most original, most close to the monks, etc. So if you layer on top an artificial niceness in a community, all that is going to do is make it inauthentic along with causing someone a whole lot of work. Then comes the bickering over rules and interpretation, then banning, then people leaving, etc. After all is said and done you may have one lineage or two left, all enthused over their newfound soapbox opportunity, and nobody else has the energy to even interact due to rules. I believe that the net effect of more strict moderation here would be people would leave and not participate anymore.

[Wayfaring]

You guys don't seem to get it and I can understand that because you are looking from the inside out and have a very vested interest in being right and everyone else being wrong.
It's like when someone makes a thread showing their Sifu or someone they think has the "real WC" and as soon as it gets even a LITTLE bit criticized, they delete the thread.
MA "WUDE" or "BUSHIDO" or any other code is about honesty, about being self-critical and calling a " spade a spade".


Yes, a code is meant to be self applied, not meant to run your mouth about how others aren't applying it.



Disregard what I have said, that's fine.
It won't change that the fact this forum has all the troubles that it has ( and the other forums don't even have 1/4 of the drama) is outlined in the reasons I spelled out.
YOU guys are the problem because you have ultior motives and agendas to push your WC as THE WC and everyone else's is "wrong".
THAT is the SOURCE of the problem and the manifestation of it is when you guys act like whiny little school girls when you are called on your BS.
Until you accept that is the problem and grow up, it won't change.


"don't even have 1/4 the drama" is kind. This forum is so much of a train wreck, it attracts look-a-loos, just like the ones that drive by an accident real slow. Look at the view to post ratio of this forum and compare to elsewhere.

yes YOU GUYS or US GUYS are the problem. However forcing people to grow up with more stringent rules is not the answer.



That is the last I will say on this matter, other than this:
I am so tempted to ask Gene for moderating powers on this forum because you guys SO DESERVE to get a taste of zero tolerance.
Sihing is just to nice to you guys and Gene and David think you all have mental problems, so...

If you give in to that temptation then you are an idiot. Go be a big brother or sister or rescue an animal from being put down if you have time on your hands.

[sanjuro_ronin]

A few years back I actually talked with Gene and Dave about NOT doing this. The reason why is because right now this is an accurate reflection of the wing chun community. People DO have the illusions their WCK is the best, oldest, most original, most close to the monks, etc. So if you layer on top an artificial niceness in a community, all that is going to do is make it inauthentic along with causing someone a whole lot of work. Then comes the bickering over rules and interpretation, then banning, then people leaving, etc. After all is said and done you may have one lineage or two left, all enthused over their newfound soapbox opportunity, and nobody else has the energy to even interact due to rules. I believe that the net effect of more strict moderation here would be people would leave and not participate anymore.

Don't worry, none of us moderators are crazy enough to tackle the girls in the WC forum ;)

[Grumblegeezer]

Don't worry, none of us moderators are crazy enough to tackle the girls in the WC forum ;)

Hey, as far as I'm concerned, people can take whatever point of view they want. I'd just like to see the tone kept a little more friendly and respectful. And for people to have a little bit of a thicker skin too, KPM. I mean you do respond a bit .... er hysterically every time someone baits you. Can't you just let it go?

SR, maybe that's what what you mean calling people "girls". I get that. But don't you find that a bit sexist. I mean, if I were a little girl, I'd sure resent being compared to some of the "crybabies" you are targeting. LOL

So, c'mon guys. Lighten up. It's just a forum ...for exchanging info, but also for fun and laughs, right?

[KPM]

KPM. I mean you do respond a bit .... er hysterically every time someone baits you. Can't you just let it go?

Since post #32 I have changed my attitude toned it down considerably. Just because I choose to continue to respond to people that are refusing to see what I am saying doesn't mean I'm taking any "bait." Call me persistent, call me hard-headed, but I don't think "hystrical" is an appropriate descriptor here recently.


So, c'mon guys. Lighten up. It's just a forum ...for exchanging info, but also for fun and laughs, right?

Exactly! So what's the point of this entire thread? Why are we making any effort at all? No one here really cares about making any kind of change. Just carry on with business as usual. Again, my mistake was continuing to actually care. I'm done with that now. Laugh at each other, call each other names, and be generally a$$h@les to each other all you want!

[KPM]

I believe that the net effect of more strict moderation here would be people would leave and not participate anymore.

Good knowledgeable people leaving and not participating anymore has already been happening for a long time. Actually having some moderation certainly couldn't make it any worse. With a good moderator only the a$$h@les that would be repeatedly called on their nonsense would leave and not participate. That wouldn't be a bad thing.

[Grumblegeezer]

....I don't think "hystrical" is an appropriate descriptor here recently.

Ha. I see you took the bait!



Laugh at each other, call each other names, and be generally a$$h@les to each other all you want!

Laughing a bit doesn't make you a jerk. A little humor, especially a bit of self-depricating humor is necessary if you hang out on a forum like this. The people that get all bent out of shape are those that take themselves too seriously. Seriously!

Now about all them "A$$holes" you mentioned. When you argue back, you are just feeding the trolls. My advice is to just ignore that BS. If their language is excessively crude, crass, or bigoted, call them on that. Otherwise just ignore them and direct your comments at those who care to converse with you. Just doing that will do more to clean up this forum than all the ranting and whining in the world.

PS. Is that what "whinging" is? Like British for whining?

[JPinAZ]

Yeah, you're right. Its just a forum. My mistake all along has been that I look upon the forum as a "virtual teahouse" so to speak.....
....But that was my mistake. Obviously no one else here sees it that way. This is just a random forum that people come to for amusement and to slander others. So be it. From now on I have no friends and no buddies here. I will come here just for amusement and for the occasional exchange of information. That's it.

No offense intended, but when are you going to stop playing the victim? This passive aggresive type of posting doesn't help promote a positive anything. "Calling it like I see it": a lot of time you're no better than those you complain about, your methods are just different. While I agree there are those that only look to troll and bring conversations to a halt, maybe if you were a little less sensitive and didn't hold everyone to your own personal ideals you might have a better experience here.

Example:

Take it back from what? I've been fighting this battle for nearly a year now, trying to get people to be nicer and more appropriate in their postings. No one listened to me or supported me. [victim again] You won't get much agreement because people here do NOT back each other up. Like I said, I was very obviously wrong to think of this forum as some kind of community. [victim again] It is definitely not. It is just a forum. It is an open forum where it is Ok for people to hide behind keyboards and fake names and say anything they want to say. It is an open forum where it is Ok to be just as rude and inappropriate as you want and say things to people that you would never say in a face to face situation. It is just an open forum where anyone is welcome to post and slander others with names and accusations without providing any explanation or evidence.

I was very obviously wrong to think I could speak up on behalf of regular posters here with some kind of common opinion or voice.[victim again] It has become VERY obvious that I cannot count on anyone here to back me up or support me on any consistent basis.[victim again] It has become very clear that I CAN expect that anyone I interact with here is very capable of turning on me in the very next post.

This is an open forum, not a community. There are no friends here. There is no one to count on here. There are no rules here. I will no longer come to anyone else's defense when I see something that seems unfair or false. That has only gotten me into trouble. I no longer care, since it is evident that no one else here does. I am done.


First, no one asked you to fight any battle. You took that on yourself to try to get people to conform to your idea of what this forum should be. While I really do agree with you, it would be nice if it was more like the utopia you want it to be, that's just not the nature of things online. I think you set yourself up for dissapointment thinking it was your duty and responsibility to make it so. Again, it was your choice to fight this crusade (as noble as it may be) but there's no reason to get so butt-hurt when the people you assumed would back you up don't really take it as seriously as you do.

Again, if we are to make this a 'better place', we have to start AND end with ourselves - in the end, that's all we are able to control - ourselves and how we react to others. And that's what wing chun teaches us anyway.. loi lau hoi sung!

[tc101]

Good knowledgeable people leaving and not participating anymore has already been happening for a long time. Actually having some moderation certainly couldn't make it any worse. With a good moderator only the a$$h@les that would be repeatedly called on their nonsense would leave and not participate. That wouldn't be a bad thing.

I like the a$$h@les they make the forum interesting. Who knows I may be one of them.

It was just Memorial Day and I spent it at the cemetery honoring those armed servicemen including some I knew personally and served with who died defending freedoms like freedom of speech. The thing about freedom of speech is you have the right to offend people. What offends me are people who call for censorship. Yes yes I know they have a right to call for it and I respect their right even though I have no respect for them.

[KPM]

Upon reflection I decided that this thread hasn't been a total waste after all. I think we have developed some guidelines for the "way forward." Let's see what we have concluded here:

1. If you are rude and crass and totally inappropriate and someone calls you on it, just say "well, everyone else does it!" If no one else has actually done it recently, then instead say "I was just trying to make a point!"

2. If someone has an important point to make and won't back down, but keeps trying to get it through to people, just tell them they are a "whiney b I t c h."

3. If you say something stupid and realize it when you get a response, just tell them "Ah! You took the bait!"

4. If someone dares to pursue a topic with a little conviction or passion, just tell them they are being "hysterical" and to "get over yourself!"

5. If someone is saying something that you don't agree with, just ask them to provide a video to prove what they are saying. It doesn't matter if you haven't provided a video yourself.

6. If someone is just applying reason and logic and expecting other's to follow along, just tell them they are being "passive aggressive" and to shut up.

7. If someone is making sense, but you find it annoying and don't agree with their methods, just tell them they are "playing the victim" and agree with them without actually seeming to be on their side.

And finally:

8. Just ignore the BS. If their language is excessively crude, crass, or bigoted, call them on that. Or not. No one cares anyway!

There you go! Should we post those rules on a sticky at the top of the forum? I find them amusing, don't you?

[Wayfaring]

Good knowledgeable people leaving and not participating anymore has already been happening for a long time. Actually having some moderation certainly couldn't make it any worse. With a good moderator only the a$$h@les that would be repeatedly called on their nonsense would leave and not participate. That wouldn't be a bad thing.

You say that now. Moderators have opinions too - perhaps one might be that you find yourself one of those a$$h@les according to their opinion.

Would that be a bad thing?

[KPM]

You say that now. Moderators have opinions too - perhaps one might be that you find yourself one of those a$$h@les according to their opinion.

Would that be a bad thing?

I said a "good" moderator.

[Wayfaring]

Upon reflection I decided that this thread hasn't been a total waste after all. I think we have developed some guidelines for the "way forward." Let's see what we have concluded here:

1. If you are rude and crass and totally inappropriate and someone calls you on it, just say "well, everyone else does it!" If no one else has actually done it recently, then instead say "I was just trying to make a point!"

2. If someone has an important point to make and won't back down, but keeps trying to get it through to people, just tell them they are a "whiney b I t c h."

3. If you say something stupid and realize it when you get a response, just tell them "Ah! You took the bait!"

4. If someone dares to pursue a topic with a little conviction or passion, just tell them they are being "hysterical" and to "get over yourself!"

5. If someone is saying something that you don't agree with, just ask them to provide a video to prove what they are saying. It doesn't matter if you haven't provided a video yourself.

6. If someone is just applying reason and logic and expecting other's to follow along, just tell them they are being "passive aggressive" and to shut up.

7. If someone is making sense, but you find it annoying and don't agree with their methods, just tell them they are "playing the victim" and agree with them without actually seeming to be on their side.

And finally:

8. Just ignore the BS. If their language is excessively crude, crass, or bigoted, call them on that. Or not. No one cares anyway!

There you go! Should we post those rules on a sticky at the top of the forum? I find them amusing, don't you?

No what I find amusing is when people make up a whole bunch of rules describing how others are wrong on the internet. It's like they have an internet cape, an internet stallion, and an internet battle cry. Onward and upward, Don Quixote!!!!!! Ye shall yet free this land of those wrong on the internet and the fair internet maiden will give you a smile. :D

[Wayfaring]

I said a "good" moderator.

And to you a "good" moderator would chastise all those opposed to you and uphold your valor?

[Grumblegeezer]

Upon reflection I decided that this thread hasn't been a total waste after all. I think we have developed some guidelines for the "way forward." Let's see what we have concluded here:

1. If you are rude and crass and totally inappropriate and someone calls you on it, just say "well, everyone else does it!" If no one else has actually done it recently, then instead say "I was just trying to make a point!"

2. If someone has an important point to make and won't back down, but keeps trying to get it through to people, just tell them they are a "whiney b I t c h."

3. If you say something stupid and realize it when you get a response, just tell them "Ah! You took the bait!"

4. If someone dares to pursue a topic with a little conviction or passion, just tell them they are being "hysterical" and to "get over yourself!"

5. If someone is saying something that you don't agree with, just ask them to provide a video to prove what they are saying. It doesn't matter if you haven't provided a video yourself.

6. If someone is just applying reason and logic and expecting other's to follow along, just tell them they are being "passive aggressive" and to shut up.

7. If someone is making sense, but you find it annoying and don't agree with their methods, just tell them they are "playing the victim" and agree with them without actually seeming to be on their side.

And finally:

8. Just ignore the BS. If their language is excessively crude, crass, or bigoted, call them on that. Or not. No one cares anyway!

There you go! Should we post those rules on a sticky at the top of the forum? I find them amusing, don't you?


Well KPM, I think you summed it up quite nicely. I, for one, will totally back these guidelines. Who's with me? Let's make it a sticky!!!

[tc101]

Upon reflection I decided that this thread hasn't been a total waste after all. I think we have developed some guidelines for the "way forward." Let's see what we have concluded here:

1. If you are rude and crass and totally inappropriate and someone calls you on it, just say "well, everyone else does it!" If no one else has actually done it recently, then instead say "I was just trying to make a point!"

2. If someone has an important point to make and won't back down, but keeps trying to get it through to people, just tell them they are a "whiney b I t c h."

3. If you say something stupid and realize it when you get a response, just tell them "Ah! You took the bait!"

4. If someone dares to pursue a topic with a little conviction or passion, just tell them they are being "hysterical" and to "get over yourself!"

5. If someone is saying something that you don't agree with, just ask them to provide a video to prove what they are saying. It doesn't matter if you haven't provided a video yourself.

6. If someone is just applying reason and logic and expecting other's to follow along, just tell them they are being "passive aggressive" and to shut up.

7. If someone is making sense, but you find it annoying and don't agree with their methods, just tell them they are "playing the victim" and agree with them without actually seeming to be on their side.

And finally:

8. Just ignore the BS. If their language is excessively crude, crass, or bigoted, call them on that. Or not. No one cares anyway!

There you go! Should we post those rules on a sticky at the top of the forum? I find them amusing, don't you?

Is it very difficult being so self important and self righteous?

[JPinAZ]

No what I find amusing is when people make up a whole bunch of rules describing how others are wrong on the internet. It's like they have an internet cape, an internet stallion, and an internet battle cry. Onward and upward, Don Quixote!!!!!! Ye shall yet free this land of those wrong on the internet and the fair internet maiden will give you a smile. :D

LOL, if I wasn't so attached to my current sig, I'd switch it to this! Spot on!

[GlennR]

Upon reflection I decided that this thread hasn't been a total waste after all. I think we have developed some guidelines for the "way forward." Let's see what we have concluded here:

1. If you are rude and crass and totally inappropriate and someone calls you on it, just say "well, everyone else does it!" If no one else has actually done it recently, then instead say "I was just trying to make a point!"

2. If someone has an important point to make and won't back down, but keeps trying to get it through to people, just tell them they are a "whiney b I t c h."

3. If you say something stupid and realize it when you get a response, just tell them "Ah! You took the bait!"

4. If someone dares to pursue a topic with a little conviction or passion, just tell them they are being "hysterical" and to "get over yourself!"

5. If someone is saying something that you don't agree with, just ask them to provide a video to prove what they are saying. It doesn't matter if you haven't provided a video yourself.

6. If someone is just applying reason and logic and expecting other's to follow along, just tell them they are being "passive aggressive" and to shut up.

7. If someone is making sense, but you find it annoying and don't agree with their methods, just tell them they are "playing the victim" and agree with them without actually seeming to be on their side.

And finally:

8. Just ignore the BS. If their language is excessively crude, crass, or bigoted, call them on that. Or not. No one cares anyway!

There you go! Should we post those rules on a sticky at the top of the forum? I find them amusing, don't you?

Keith, heres a little clip from Australia with a bit of advice i think you should consider...........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y&feature=kp

[KPM]

And to you a "good" moderator would chastise all those opposed to you and uphold your valor?

Of course!

[KPM]

Well KPM, I think you summed it up quite nicely. I, for one, will totally back these guidelines. Who's with me? Let's make it a sticky!!!

Yes. We really should!

[KPM]

Is it very difficult being so self important and self righteous?

Not at all. I find it just as easy as you find being an a$$h@le!

[KPM]

LOL, if I wasn't so attached to my current sig, I'd switch it to this! Spot on!

I think you should. Your current signature sucks.

[KPM]

Keith, heres a little clip from Australia with a bit of advice i think you should consider...........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y&feature=kp

Sorry. I don't speak Australian.

[Mutant]

This forum is hilarious. You guys crack me up. I hope that you don't go and start moderating this forum based on one perspective because that would totally kill this forum, which seems to be the most active by far on KFO these days. Web traffic equals advertisers and hits to martialartsmart.com so putting the brakes on and clearing out the freak show would be a) boring and b) a bad business decision (IMO of course).

The very fact that most of you are very passionate about wing chun and willing to over analyze, debate 'the real wing chun', whose technique is bull$hit and call them out, the history of the mystery which can probably never really be solved, and all that other craziness is what makes it BETTER than other forums! You can come over here and have a perfectly good argument at any given minute, and there's always gonna be people to argue with and turn it into a 30 page thread! How awesome is that?!? The various other forums on KFO (which seem relatively dead these days compared to how they used to be) and elsewhere where people do sip tea and play nicely are usually dead and boring! I'd rather pop in here and watch the melee where people are passionate about unearthing some mystery or snake engine, getting fired up over defining some angle while some else is telling them they suck and breaking a bottle of whiskey over their head. Now that's entertaining and that's also why this forum regularly has by far the most people reading and posting. You've gotta be part PT Barnum these days to keep a good show going, and if someone truly can't stand the heat, nonsense and the never ending cyclical arguments, then just friggin click some where else, that simple.

I think I may have a way to help wing chun move forward a bit. Just not sure if I'll have time to take it on right now. I'll post a tread about it some time this week when I get a chance. Now carry on, ladies! *picks up and throws a bar stool into the crowd*

[GlennR]

This forum is hilarious. You guys crack me up. I hope that you don't go and start moderating this forum based on one perspective because that would totally kill this forum, which seems to be the most active by far on KFO these days. Web traffic equals advertisers and hits to martialartsmart.com so putting the brakes on and clearing out the freak show would be a) boring and b) a bad business decision (IMO of course).

The very fact that most of you are very passionate about wing chun and willing to over analyze, debate 'the real wing chun', whose technique is bull$hit and call them out, the history of the mystery which can probably never really be solved, and all that other craziness is what makes it BETTER than other forums! You can come over here and have a perfectly good argument at any given minute, and there's always gonna be people to argue with and turn it into a 30 page thread! How awesome is that?!? The various other forums on KFO (which seem relatively dead these days compared to how they used to be) and elsewhere where people do sip tea and play nicely are usually dead and boring! I'd rather pop in here and watch the melee where people are passionate about unearthing some mystery or snake engine, getting fired up over defining some angle while some else is telling them they suck and breaking a bottle of whiskey over their head. Now that's entertaining and that's also why this forum regularly has by far the most people reading and posting. You've gotta be part PT Barnum these days to keep a good show going, and if someone truly can't stand the heat, nonsense and the never ending cyclical arguments, then just friggin click some where else, that simple.

I think I may have a way to help wing chun move forward a bit. Just not sure if I'll have time to take it on right now. I'll post a tread about it some time this week when I get a chance. Now carry on, ladies! *picks up and throws a bar stool into the crowd*

Spot on Mutant........... no go and **** yourself ;)

[GlennR]

Sorry. I don't speak Australian.

Then you probably wouldnt understand.... "get a dog up ya"

[PalmStriker]

:) On a more serious note, I think the way forward should at least have a centerline strategy to it.

[PalmStriker]

Then you probably wouldnt understand.... "get a dog up ya"
Whoa! Haven't heard that one, doesn't sound too promising. :D

[LFJ]

Keith, heres a little clip from Australia with a bit of advice i think you should consider...........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y&feature=kp

This is Chopper. He has a f*ckin' horseshoe mustache but he cut it too short, doesn't actually ride a chopper, and has a sissy accent. Harden the f*ck up, Chopper!

[GlennR]

This is Chopper. He has a f*ckin' horseshoe mustache but he cut it too short, doesn't actually ride a chopper, and has a sissy accent. Harden the f*ck up, Chopper!

He just died actually from liver cancer, and he got the name chopper by cutting his own ears of in prison to prove a point.
That point being........

Harden the **** up!!!!

[LFJ]

He just died actually from liver cancer, and he got the name chopper by cutting his own ears of in prison to prove a point.
That point being........

Harden the **** up!!!!

The guy in the clip was an impersonator anyway. The real Chopper was a criminal douche.

[Wayfaring]

Not at all. I find it just as easy as you find being an a$$h@le!

Excellent. Now can you two whiny b1tches go get a room? :D:D:D

[Wayfaring]

This forum is hilarious. You guys crack me up. I hope that you don't go and start moderating this forum based on one perspective because that would totally kill this forum, which seems to be the most active by far on KFO these days. Web traffic equals advertisers and hits to martialartsmart.com so putting the brakes on and clearing out the freak show would be a) boring and b) a bad business decision (IMO of course).

The very fact that most of you are very passionate about wing chun and willing to over analyze, debate 'the real wing chun', whose technique is bull$hit and call them out, the history of the mystery which can probably never really be solved, and all that other craziness is what makes it BETTER than other forums! You can come over here and have a perfectly good argument at any given minute, and there's always gonna be people to argue with and turn it into a 30 page thread! How awesome is that?!? The various other forums on KFO (which seem relatively dead these days compared to how they used to be) and elsewhere where people do sip tea and play nicely are usually dead and boring! I'd rather pop in here and watch the melee where people are passionate about unearthing some mystery or snake engine, getting fired up over defining some angle while some else is telling them they suck and breaking a bottle of whiskey over their head. Now that's entertaining and that's also why this forum regularly has by far the most people reading and posting. You've gotta be part PT Barnum these days to keep a good show going, and if someone truly can't stand the heat, nonsense and the never ending cyclical arguments, then just friggin click some where else, that simple.

I think I may have a way to help wing chun move forward a bit. Just not sure if I'll have time to take it on right now. I'll post a tread about it some time this week when I get a chance. Now carry on, ladies! *picks up and throws a bar stool into the crowd*

Mutant's way forward: keep the forums whiny, and keep them female. :eek:

[GlennR]

The guy in the clip was an impersonator anyway. The real Chopper was a criminal douche.

I agree, but not the sort of guy you'd want to upset

[KPM]

This forum is hilarious. You guys crack me up. I hope that you don't go and start moderating this forum based on one perspective because that would totally kill this forum, which seems to be the most active by far on KFO these days. Web traffic equals advertisers and hits to martialartsmart.com so putting the brakes on and clearing out the freak show would be a) boring and b) a bad business decision (IMO of course).

The very fact that most of you are very passionate about wing chun and willing to over analyze, debate 'the real wing chun', whose technique is bull$hit and call them out, the history of the mystery which can probably never really be solved, and all that other craziness is what makes it BETTER than other forums! You can come over here and have a perfectly good argument at any given minute, and there's always gonna be people to argue with and turn it into a 30 page thread! How awesome is that?!? The various other forums on KFO (which seem relatively dead these days compared to how they used to be) and elsewhere where people do sip tea and play nicely are usually dead and boring! I'd rather pop in here and watch the melee where people are passionate about unearthing some mystery or snake engine, getting fired up over defining some angle while some else is telling them they suck and breaking a bottle of whiskey over their head. Now that's entertaining and that's also why this forum regularly has by far the most people reading and posting. You've gotta be part PT Barnum these days to keep a good show going, and if someone truly can't stand the heat, nonsense and the never ending cyclical arguments, then just friggin click some where else, that simple.



Now that's a pretty good assessment! Gene shouldn't be complaining about us at all!

[Grumblegeezer]

I agree, but not the sort of guy you'd want to upset

See! Even on threads that seem to go nowhere I find myself learning neat stuff. Before this, I'd never heard of "Chopper".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9reup-d0qHI

...and now I've got a handy new slogan! I'll try it out on my former assistant instructor who has stopped coming to class because of a sore neck he got during a bit of clinch-work last week. ...or should I say last weak? Heck I'm a few of weeks shy of 59 and have accumulated injuries than I count ...but I don't go blaming my training partners for my own lame-ness. (Literally. I am partially lame -- traumatic arthritis from leg and ankle injuries. LOL).

[GlennR]

See! Even on threads that seem to go nowhere I find myself learning neat stuff. Before this, I'd never heard of "Chopper".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9reup-d0qHI

...and now I've got a handy new slogan! I'll try it out on my former assistant instructor who has stopped coming to class because of a sore neck he got during a bit of clinch-work last week. ...or should I say last weak? Heck I'm a few of weeks shy of 59 and have accumulated injuries than I count ...but I don't go blaming my training partners for my own lame-ness. (Literally. I am partially lame -- traumatic arthritis from leg and ankle injuries. LOL).

Well done GG........... now go and harden the **** up! ;)

[KPM]

The WC forum is kind of a running joke, I am sorry to say.
The pointless bickering and arguments about the most insignificant of crap is truly mind boggling.
).

I said before that I don't normally go to any of the other forums here at KFO. But I decided to check them out today and went to the general "Kung Fu Forum." Lo and behold, this is the very first thread I see:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67696-in-defense-of-gus

So obviously the Wing Chun Forum isn't the only forum with issues. Just thought this was a valuable data point on this thread, since so many non-Wing Chun guys felt the need to jump in and give us advice.

[tc101]

I said before that I don't normally go to any of the other forums here at KFO. But I decided to check them out today and went to the general "Kung Fu Forum." Lo and behold, this is the very first thread I see:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67696-in-defense-of-gus

So obviously the Wing Chun Forum isn't the only forum with issues. Just thought this was a valuable data point on this thread, since so many non-Wing Chun guys felt the need to jump in and give us advice.

Gus could have been a wing chun teacher it s the same every where. The only issue is guys who practice some Chinese martial art who never really spar but think they can fight or know about application. There is nothing wrong with doing martial art for reasons other than fighting I mean there are cardio kick boxing and Title type boxing gyms for fitness.

[Rover]

Really guys! This is the best you can do?

Sad, Really Sad!

Mister,with respect and no offense ; your avatar and sig. look like you are pantomiming , aren't they ? :D

[Frost]

I said before that I don't normally go to any of the other forums here at KFO. But I decided to check them out today and went to the general "Kung Fu Forum." Lo and behold, this is the very first thread I see:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?67696-in-defense-of-gus

So obviously the Wing Chun Forum isn't the only forum with issues. Just thought this was a valuable data point on this thread, since so many non-Wing Chun guys felt the need to jump in and give us advice.

All forums have debates and issues, that particular debate you are talking about goes back to 2003 on here and is a beef between some training brothers But its probably the only thread anywhere else at the moment on this entire forum which has anything like the level of rubbish this wing chun forum has on a daily basis, the other top threads on the main forum are how to counter your opponents counter, a thread about bruce lee, a plea on how kung fu should be taught, a thread asking about golden bell training and so on, and at least in the Gus thread he actually stepped up and fought to back his point up, if only henrick et all would do the same
looking at the other foums the mantis forum here for example there are a couple of historical doc threads and that’s it, southern forum one about Gus, one about interesting articles and some technical questions being asked only in the wing chun forum is this stuff going on over and over , which is why non wing chun guys pop over, by and large the other forums are boring and no one can believe stuff like this actually goes on in so called fighting arts
I mean take that thread about Gus and black taoist you are so happy to draw comparisons about, at least they both stepped up and fought to settle their differences, actually fought with hard contact the closest the wing chun forum has come to this is when kevin did chi sao touchy feely stuff and got owned