Vaccine study finds no link to autism

[GoldenBrain]

Good news to all those anti-vaccine folks out there. You can now vaccinate your children again because there is NO link to autism. A study of over a million kids is a huge sample group so once again, I'm going with the science on this one.

http://guardianlv.com/2014/05/meta-analysis-on-a-million-kids-shows-no-link-between-vaccines-and-autism/

[Syn7]

Vaccinate your kids people. Memory is short, and when you are dealing with time scale that spans generations, memory is down right embarrassing.

Let's say for arguments sake that vaccines do cause harm(relax, just for arguments sake :)). The number I see most is 1 in 100. Get on google and find out what the child mortality rate was before vaccines were wide spread. It's a good trade. And considering the FACT that they don't cause autism and bad batches are quite rare, it's an amazing trade.

Not vaccinating your kids is ignorant and selfish. You do harm to the community as a whole by keeping your head that far up your own ass. I understand that it is hard for a parent to deal with an autistic child, especially in the case of regressive autism and that they search for answers. But you can't allow your emotions to overpower your good sense when the damage caused by not using vaccines is potentially earth shattering. I am so tired of hearing people talk about freedom and choice in this respect. As if it's simply their risk to take. These people have absolutely no idea as to the scope of the problems that are already popping up due to this ridiculous movement. Your guru should be tossed into a deep dark hole for the damage he has caused.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ditto.
I have been in countries where there is no vaccination program.
Not places you would want to live in.

[MarathonTmatt]

Now this is rich... the top comment on the article that GoldenBrain linked by a Dr. J Smythe: (thank you dr. smythe.)

“Science denial”? Look at who came up with that term, sociologists. There’s a valid science for you… Based on the concepts of political correctness and the denial of objective truth.

Then they use the concepts of “global warming” and “evolution” – both of which have been scientifically disproven, so they try to use the term “climate change” and Darwinian evolution is just touted as “fact” even though it is nothing more than a mere theory. A theory that if questioned those who do so are merely ridiculed to help shame them back into the status quo.

Whatever happened to true critical (criterion based) thinking … ?

That’s right, that went out when subjectivism became the fad." (end quote).

;)

Anywhooz, back to the thread at hand: I am not going to say anything for or against vaccinations. But I do have questions- at what age should children be vaccinated? How often? (is it subjective or is there a general consensus?) And Sanjuro Ronin, what counties if you don't mind were you at?
Thnx.

[GoldenBrain]

Now this is rich... the top comment on the article that GoldenBrain linked by a Dr. J Smythe: (thank you dr. smythe.)

“Science denial”? Look at who came up with that term, sociologists. There’s a valid science for you… Based on the concepts of political correctness and the denial of objective truth.

Then they use the concepts of “global warming” and “evolution” – both of which have been scientifically disproven, so they try to use the term “climate change” and Darwinian evolution is just touted as “fact” even though it is nothing more than a mere theory. A theory that if questioned those who do so are merely ridiculed to help shame them back into the status quo.

Whatever happened to true critical (criterion based) thinking … ?

That’s right, that went out when subjectivism became the fad." (end quote).

;)

Anywhooz, back to the thread at hand: I am not going to say anything for or against vaccinations. But I do have questions- at what age should children be vaccinated? How often? (is it subjective or is there a general consensus?) And Sanjuro Ronin, what counties if you don't mind were you at?
Thnx.


I wasn't aware that either evolution or global warming has been scientifically disproven. ;) Without going deep into the global warming debate I'll just point out one part of it. The carbon dioxide in the air today is as high by percentage than at any other time in history except for several of the major extinction events. The problem is, at present there are no super volcanos erupting or extremely large asteroids slamming into the earth causing world wide fires, which in the past is what increased the carbon dioxide. In fact, other than man, there is not a very good explanation for the increase in carbon dioxide today. If you have an alternate theory I'm all ears. One of the arguments I hear all the time is that scientists get money in grants for keeping the global warming scare alive. I'll point out another bit of info. Many scientists who have peer reviewed the climate change studies have no vested interest in the money flow from said climate change because they don't even work in the climatology field. Neil Degrass Tyson is one of those uber intelligent scientists. He's an astrophysicist which is the field where is money comes from, other than being the director of the the National Museum of Science, his books and of course the awesome show Cosmos...etc.

As far as evolution is concerned, I'll just allow Richard Dawkins to speak for me. "Evolution could so easily be disproved if even a single fossil turned up in the wrong date order. Evolution has passed this test with flying colors." ~ Richard Dawkins.

Now to answer your vaccine question. As you know, hopefully you know, there are many major diseases that vaccines address such as polio, measles, mumps, rubella...etc., so the following schedule is designed to deal with these in a way that the body can tolerate. That's why they don't give children all these vaccines at once. The schedule is something like this, although my wife or professor Google could probably get you an exact answer. From birth children receive vaccinations monthly for the first six months. After that every three months or so until they are twelve months old, and then yearly for the next seven to ten years. The major vaccines are complete by three to five years. The remaining years are maintenance and boosters.

I know you haven't been vaccinated at all, or regularly, based on what you've said. I hope I got that right because I really hate to make assumptions. So, you my friend are fortunate that you live in a country where regular vaccinations have all but wiped out the major diseases, or you may not be here today. If you visited one of the countries that Sanjuro is referring to then it wouldn't take very long for you to get very sick. Just look at what happened to the many tribes of North and South America when they first encountered Europeans. They, unfortunately hadn't yet EVOLVED the necessary immunity to these new diseases. Another thing is that the people who are most negatively affected by vaccines would be the worst affected if they actually got the disease. Take chicken pocks for instance. Not a big one right? Well, that's actually not true. There are many children who contract chicken pocks that end up hospitalized with brain swelling and other terrible symptoms up to and including death. It's these children, who are most affected by the disease in the first place that have bad reactions to the vaccines. Syn and others are exactly right when they say the trade off is well worth it. Instead of 40 out of 100 coming down with the nasty or dying there are now only 1 out of 100. I just made those numbers up for the sake of discussion but I think you can get my point.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I just want to take a moment to share that in NYC there have been pocketed outbreaks of the measles. The unusual thing about it is that it is occurring in poor neighborhoods, amongst people who are more likely to vaccinate their children.


mickey

[SoCo KungFu]

Unfortunately, people like Marathon prove this http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/mariakonnikova/2014/05/why-do-people-persist-in-believing-things-that-just-arent-true.html

And if this study is true, its rather depressing, although not exactly shocking. Frankly, people like him simply can't be convinced. Sam Harris put it pretty well when he asked how do you convince someone who has decided they do not value evidence? At this point, I think the best way forward is to attack these people so ferociously that they never show themselves to society again. Its no longer about this generation. Its about ensuring such damaging ideas do not spread to the next. At least not until they can be "vaccinated" with developed critical thinking and an understanding of the evidence. Cruel for sure, but you don't win a war without getting bloody.

Ideas are a lot like a communicable disease really. People like Marathon are similar to the AIDS carrier that knowingly has unprotected sex with people out of spite.

[SoCo KungFu]

Greetings,

I just want to take a moment to share that in NYC there have been pocketed outbreaks of the measles. The unusual thing about it is that it is occurring in poor neighborhoods, amongst people who are more likely to vaccinate their children.


mickey

Outbreaks have been occurring all over. We've had a number of both measles and mumps here as well. Further, you need to produce some evidence for your claim because this says you are talking out your back end. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/114/1/187.abstract

Poor neighborhoods are some of the least likely to have proper health care, including access to vaccinations. To most, this is pretty common sense. So you now have some work to do. Further, poor neighborhoods also have the worst sanitation. And can have high populations of immigrants, esp those from countries which have even worse health care, vaccination regimes, and sanitation. I don't think I need to connect the dots for you here.

[Syn7]

You know... I am trying to be respectful... But Fuuuuuuuck. This is frustrating ****. Some people are so backasswards that I don't even know where to start. I'm so glad I chose a STEM field that isn't constantly bombarded by supreme weapons grade stupidity. Sure, most people have no idea as to how the tech they DEPEND on actually works, but at least they will acknowledge that it does work. I totally understand why SoCo is frustrated about this stuff. Some of you people are one solar flare away from starving to death.

[GoldenBrain]

You know... I am trying to be respectful... But Fuuuuuuuck. This is frustrating ****. Some people are so backasswards that I don't even know where to start. I'm so glad I chose a STEM field that isn't constantly bombarded by supreme weapons grade stupidity. Sure, most people have no idea as to how the tech they DEPEND on actually works, but at least they will acknowledge that it does work. I totally understand why SoCo is frustrated about this stuff. Some of you people are one solar flare away from starving to death.

I'm with you on the trying to be respectful but I believe I'm being won over to the side of being hardcore rude against the stupid out there. As has been pointed out, ignorance is excusable, but spreading stupid is unforgivable. I can't even grasp the concept of not understand evolution, vaccines, obvious measurable climate change...etc. The cool thing about science is...well, one of the nifty little quotes in my signature says it all. I won't begrudge a persons spiritualism or whatever religion they are into, but scientific fact does not require a persons faith.

Oh, and I don't think you were referring to me, but this tech savvy gardner's family is definitely not going to starve. :cool:

[Syn7]

What's cool about science is once you understand the process, how ideas are vetted. How every new idea goes 200 rounds with legions of intelligent people looking to take them down. Once you understand the process, you know where to look and what to look for in sifting through info. You know when you can say "this is an absolute fact".

I can handle people not understanding things, we're all in the dark about so much. I can forgive people for not having the opportunity to educate themselves. What I can't forgive is the willful ignorance and disgusting confirmation bias I see.

No, I wasn't talking about you. But then you are not like most. You have land and time. If it came down to it, I would have to "liberate" supplies to get started and hold me over till their bore fruit.

You need sentry drones. :p

[GoldenBrain]

Conformation bias seems to be at epidemic proportions these days. Maybe somebody will come up with a vaccine for that. Oh wait, that's what the scientific method is for?

Yep, sentry drones would be cool as ice! This may sound paranoid, but trust me it isn't because I'm just not that person. I have over a dozen cameras networked around our land that I can monitor from any of our iPhones or link through the apple tv for home viewing or on one of the laptops. We are at the end of cell phone range so I've added a couple of micro cells to boost reception, and linked a few routers so we can get wifi across the property. So, sentry drones are a logical next step. ;):D

[mickey]

Greetings,

In NYC we are very serious about vaccinations. It is a requirement for admission to school.

http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/461805A3-25CC-4397-AE8E-F8A32BCF6335/0/SH65_2013_14.pdf


I mention this because I was wondering if the virus could be mutating, making the vaccine ineffective.


SoCO KungFu, if you think I was making a statement about what is happening in NYC and using it as an example of what is going on all over in the USA, then maybe, you should stop reading with your ass. Stats and studies never tell everything.

mickey

[sanjuro_ronin]

The reason some people have the luxury ( and it is a luxury) to NOT vaccinate their kids and things go ok is because the majority DO vaccinate their kids.
My parents grew up in Portugal during a time when not all kids were vaccinated and they still remember some pretty bad outbreaks.

Food for thought:
http://www.theverge.com/2014/1/21/5329478/vaccine-preventable-disease-outbreaks-show-anti-vaccine-movement-influence

The Council of Foreign Relations Global Health Program started tracking news reports about vaccine-preventable disease outbreaks late in 2008. It has now produced an interactive map that shows that data, tracking the number of recorded cases of diseases such as measles, mumps, and whooping cough across the world between 2008 and 2014. The results show a surprising number of vaccine-preventable diseases in developed countries with access to vaccinations.

The majority of vaccine-preventable disease outbreaks during this time took place in less economically developed regions of the world. Many countries in west Africa were struck by repeat measles and cholera epidemics, while Zimbabwe suffered from more than 3,000 cases of typhoid. Measles was by far the most prevalent of the vaccine-preventable diseases during this four-year period: more than 20,000 cases of measles were reported in India, Pakistan, Indonesia, and the Philippines from 2008 to the present day. The LA Times' Michael Hiltzik puts the number of measles cases in the "underdeveloped world" down to the unavailability of the MMR — measles, mumps, and rubella — vaccine.

THE MAP ALSO SHOWS A RISE IN PREVENTABLE DISEASES IN THE US, EUROPE, AND AUSTRALASIA

But the Council of Foreign Relations' map also shows a rise in preventable diseases in the world's economic powerhouses, where the standard of living is higher, and the access to vaccines near-ubiquitous. During the period represented by the map's data, the US was home to thousands of cases of pertussis. Pertussis, also called whooping cough, went largely unreported in the underdeveloped world: 58 cases were noted in Sudan in 2013, while north Afghanistan suffered 350 cases in a cluster outbreak in 2012.

In contrast, the state of Wisconsin alone saw more than 7,000 cases of the disease between 2011 and 2013. In California, the number was over 10,000. At least 10 babies died in the state from the disease in 2010. In 2009, there were no news reports of vaccine-preventable diseases in the state of Washington. In 2012, the state suffered five distinct outbreaks of whooping cough, totaling 7,000 cases of a disease that was once close to eradication. Similar outbreaks have occurred in Australia and the UK — both countries with advanced vaccination programs. This discrepancy could be due to the map's data source: the Council of Foreign Relations relied on news reports to collate its information, and reliable reporting from the developing world is usually trickier to find than news from inside the US or UK. But the outbreaks also appear to have intrinsic links to the anti-vaccination movements present in these economically advanced countries.

THE CLAIMS OF ANTI-VACCINE CAMPAIGNERS CAUSED A DECLINE IN VACCINATION RATES

In the UK, the MMR vaccine is available through the National Health Service. But the MMR vaccine was also the focus of an infamous study by Andrew Wakefield, who suggested that the vaccine had a link to the development of autism. Although the study was discredited, and Wakefield — who was reportedly planning to personally profit from a projected decline in MMR vaccinations — was struck off the British Medical Register, his baseless hypothesis pervaded public consciousness, and the country saw a decline in vaccination rates. More recently, a similar anti-vaccine standpoint has been taken by celebrities such as Jenny McCarthy in the United States. McCarthy's claim, that vaccines contain "toxins," is less specific than Wakefield's false findings, but also contributed to the misinformation about immunization, leading to a rise in preventable diseases in the US and other countries, such as Australia.

The Council of Foreign Relations' map may be an imperfect study of preventable diseases worldwide, but it is packed with evidence — both empirical and anecdotal — that illnesses humanity worked out how to halt fifty years ago are again a threat in the west.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Greetings,

In NYC we are very serious about vaccinations. It is a requirement for admission to school.

http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/461805A3-25CC-4397-AE8E-F8A32BCF6335/0/SH65_2013_14.pdf


I mention this because I was wondering if the virus could be mutating, making the vaccine ineffective.


SoCO KungFu, if you think I was making a statement about what is happening in NYC and using it as an example of what is going on all over in the USA, then maybe, you should stop reading with your ass. Stats and studies never tell everything.

mickey


Yes, mutation is a very real issue.

Just an FYI in regards to school policies:
I don't know about NY but I know that here in Toronto it is mandatory to have certain vaccinations BUT kids are exempt IF they don't have them due to religious reasons.
I am SO AGAINST that, it's not even funny !

[David Jamieson]

Greetings,

I just want to take a moment to share that in NYC there have been pocketed outbreaks of the measles. The unusual thing about it is that it is occurring in poor neighborhoods, amongst people who are more likely to vaccinate their children.


mickey

Actually, I believe it is occurring in pockets and areas where people are NOT vaccinating. That is what I have heard.
There are so many people that want to blame someone for their child's disability (Thanks Jenny McCarthy you vacuous twat) that they
refuse to believe that there are genetic defects in their own lineage and or that they live in areas where they are exposed to poisons in the air and water.

Self diagnosing types are the bane of the issue here. People who actually think a couple of youtube videos and a confirmation bias article they read constitutes them having some kind of deeper knowledge when they in fact, don't.

[MarathonTmatt]

Well, GoldenBrain I have to give thanks to you for at least engaging me in intelligent conversation. You bring up good points about Global Warming/Climate Change- I appreciate your input. Certainly industry has had an impact on our environment, very unfortunate. Years ago I was involved in a grassroots organization here in MA. I got pretty involved for a little while. Issues I worked on were to regulate/tighten up industry standards so that chemicals wouldn't have such a chance to leak into our water-ways, such as mercury. I campaigned for renewable energy (wind turbines- "the cape wind project."), and also to stop clear-cut logging in some of our forests. This was probably 2004'ish.

As far as vaccinations go, I never said if I was for or against them. True, I myself have never been vaccinated. A lot of that has to do with how I was raised as a child. But that doesn't mean I have an opinion on them, one way or another.

It is unfortunate that some have resorted to childish name-calling. It seems to me like I am not the one who does not look at the evidence. In fact, I look at evidence and question it, such as apparently man-made underwater (sunken) structures off the coast of Japan. I will point my finger and say "wow, look at that, let's learn more", while people like SoCo Kung Fu will say "shut up, you are stupid." In fact, it is standard practice for professionals in certain fields (archeologists, doctors) to turn a blind eye to evidence. This could be for both academic or political reasons.

Further, it is true that places in this world are below poverty level. The way I see it, the modern, western pharmaceutical industry in general is like a Band-Aid. I can guarantee that these places have been made poor by deliberate design (wars, opium wars, colonialism, conquest, genocide), which is the real root of the problem. I am not naïve though, and realize that such destruction of the human state will continue. If anything, people are de-evolving INTO monkeys. Go ahead, call me more names instead of engaging me in intelligent conversation, you will only prove my point.

[Syn7]

Never mistake not jumping on a bandwagon as a denial. There is a process, and until that runs it's course, no competent physician(or any other professional worth their salt) is going read too much into evidence presented.

[GoldenBrain]

Yes, mutation is a very real issue.

Just an FYI in regards to school policies:
I don't know about NY but I know that here in Toronto it is mandatory to have certain vaccinations BUT kids are exempt IF they don't have them due to religious reasons.
I am SO AGAINST that, it's not even funny !

TX also mandates vaccinations for school kids but you can opt out by signing a few forms. We homeschool our child and in TX a homeschool environment is considered a private school. Meaning we mandate what we want to mandate. We also get to certify the diploma. With that said, as I mentioned we do vaccinate and the state keeps all those records. My wife and I were vaccinated up to our eyeballs with even less efficient vaccines as children. We are both thankful for that and for great people like Louis Pasteur. We just want the same protections for our child.

[GoldenBrain]

No problem Matt! You know, I don't really mind engaging in all sorts of conversation on up to complete fantasy, but many here just won't do it. I'm a scientific thinker but not a scientist so I'm allowed to be this way. Doctors, scientists...etc. just don't have that luxury and at this point I'm happy for that. If they entertained the kind of thoughts we might engage in then science and medicine would be a joke. The problem today is WebMD doctors, bloggers spouting BS, people believing that and spreading it around to those who just don't have the faculties to understand the difference.

This state is a fine example. Bill Nye was boooo'd off the stage one time when speaking in a very bible belty area near Waco, TX. He was trying to explain that the moon reflects sunlight and is not a source of light as some bibles have put it. At least that's how I think the lecture went. That shouldn't challenge anybodies religion but rather further explain the process. It's simple fact that we know this about the moon. We have space craft for gods/goddess's sake. :D

[SoCo KungFu]

Greetings,

In NYC we are very serious about vaccinations. It is a requirement for admission to school.

http://schools.nyc.gov/NR/rdonlyres/461805A3-25CC-4397-AE8E-F8A32BCF6335/0/SH65_2013_14.pdf


I mention this because I was wondering if the virus could be mutating, making the vaccine ineffective.


SoCO KungFu, if you think I was making a statement about what is happening in NYC and using it as an example of what is going on all over in the USA, then maybe, you should stop reading with your ass. Stats and studies never tell everything.

mickey

No idiot, I was actually stating that NYC isn't unique in its troubles. And calling you out on a BS claim, which I actually did rather politely. But now that you've decided to double down on stupid, put up or shut up. You're talking bull****. Either show some evidence, against the overwhelming data on demographics and health care/vaccination trends which go directly against your claim, or admit you don't know wtf you are talking about. Its very simple.

[SoCo KungFu]

I mention this because I was wondering if the virus could be mutating, making the vaccine ineffective.


Mutations occur but its not so cut and dry, poof now its protected. Mutations take time to gradually flow through a population (in this case a population of the disease). That mutation also needs to be selected for. In this, by vaccinating, the vulnerable bacteria or virus are eliminated (or rather prevented from propagating), leaving those microbes with resistance. However, in populations where no vaccinations are occurring, this selection will not be happening and its very statistically unlikely that a mutant will pervade through this population (this is the case we see; and is explained by basic evolutionary game theory). Further, holding a shield to your left exposes your right. This is no different. A mutation may develop a resistance, but a microbe has a finite chemical structure to work with. That mutation can open a target for a medication/vaccine elsewhere. This is exactly what the armies of immunologists work to exploit every year.

[SoCo KungFu]

It is unfortunate that some have resorted to childish name-calling. It seems to me like I am not the one who does not look at the evidence. In fact, I look at evidence and question it, such as apparently man-made underwater (sunken) structures off the coast of Japan. I will point my finger and say "wow, look at that, let's learn more", while people like SoCo Kung Fu will say "shut up, you are stupid." In fact, it is standard practice for professionals in certain fields (archeologists, doctors) to turn a blind eye to evidence. This could be for both academic or political reasons.

Actually, I'm saying, shut up and read, because you are being stupid. Subtle, but important difference. You are in here whining and trying to play victim. However, what instigates this treatment is the fact that in at least 4 threads now, you've entered with a list of questions and then in not 3 or 4 sentences following (if that), you go into diatribes against the very people and the very process which can give you those answers. You've shown time and again that despite this crying exampled above, you are in no way here for anything remotely resembling intelligent conversation. You're here for people to coddle your overactive imagination and sympathize with your agenda. You're here to rant about the "establishment" when you don't even have a clue on what the establishment actually is. This is why you receive my vitriol. You are absolutely insulting and you are so caught up in your own little fantasy, you don't even understand why. What you do here, weekly, would be the equal of walking into Yee Chi Wai's kwoon and yelling you want to learn Hung Gar, but you refuse to learn from Yee because he's been "indoctrinated" by the Chinese kung fu institutions. How stupid do you think that is? This is exactly what you look like right now. And then you ***** when people call you out? Grow the fk up. You aren't a victim. And for fuks sake, learn what evidence actually entails. You wouldn't know evidence if it gwa choy'ed you in the face.

[mickey]

Greetings,

SoCo KungFu,

You are the true reflection of the words you call people. If you can't stand what I have to say, put me on ignore. I triple dare you. Good Bye.


mickey

[MarathonTmatt]

Actually, I'm saying, shut up and read, because you are being stupid. Subtle, but important difference. You are in here whining and trying to play victim. However, what instigates this treatment is the fact that in at least 4 threads now, you've entered with a list of questions and then in not 3 or 4 sentences following (if that), you go into diatribes against the very people and the very process which can give you those answers. You've shown time and again that despite this crying exampled above, you are in no way here for anything remotely resembling intelligent conversation. You're here for people to coddle your overactive imagination and sympathize with your agenda. You're here to rant about the "establishment" when you don't even have a clue on what the establishment actually is. This is why you receive my vitriol. You are absolutely insulting and you are so caught up in your own little fantasy, you don't even understand why. What you do here, weekly, would be the equal of walking into Yee Chi Wai's kwoon and yelling you want to learn Hung Gar, but you refuse to learn from Yee because he's been "indoctrinated" by the Chinese kung fu institutions. How stupid do you think that is? This is exactly what you look like right now. And then you ***** when people call you out? Grow the fk up. You aren't a victim. And for fuks sake, learn what evidence actually entails. You wouldn't know evidence if it gwa choy'ed you in the face.

Fair enough. I respect your opinion, if that is how I am broadcasting myself to you. I also want to say, I find nothing wrong with the scientific process (photo-synthesis, etc.) What I do have a problem with are institutions that run a monopoly. What you must learn, what gets covered up and swept under the rug, what goes un-investigated. For instance, where is the team of professional experts studying those Japanese ruins, or has it just gone un-investigated.

Also, I have no agenda. Just asking questions. Heck, not even asking questions, really. Simply pointing out things I have read or seen that grab my attention. I agree, I am not a victim. I have made sure of that up to this point. I would encourage anyone who does feel like a victim to change their situation.

You have brought up some good points, okay, sure. I do not know how to think like a scientist, but I am a critical thinker. Looking at a globe map with one of the pole ends of the earth thinking it makes sense to do so is not a fantasy, and neither is questioning possibly-verifiable ruins. That's all.

[Syn7]

I also want to say, I find nothing wrong with the scientific process (photo-synthesis, etc.)

What?

What exactly do you think is meant by the term "scientific method"?

Anyways, we all have an agenda and it's always selfish. If I argue with somebody and try to sway them to my way of thinking it's not necessarily out of a genuine caring for their well being, I'm just trying to shape the world around me to what I want.

Do you really believe evolution has been proven false? I'm curious as to what you base that opinion on? Any references? You say you are a critical thinker yet if you don't understand the scientific method yet claim it has shown something to be false then that means you have just accepted the words of another without applying any critique. Know what I'm sayin? Bit of a contradiction there.

[MarathonTmatt]

You're here for people to coddle your overactive imagination... You're here to rant about the "establishment" when you don't even have a clue on what the establishment actually is. This is why you receive my vitriol. You are absolutely insulting and you are so caught up in your own little fantasy, you don't even understand why.

Sir,
May I explain a few things. Where I live, in New England, out of hundreds of thousands of people who live in my area (and outside my area, numbering millions), I am one of only a few of people who is aware of the significance of the former, once ceremonial (indigenous) landscape. The general area I live in is rich with significant stone-work, in pockets of undeveloped land . Everything else besides the stone decays. Just the other year, an airport was going to expand it's runways in Turner's Falls, Massachusetts but a contingency of Wampanoag and Narragansett people identified ceremonial stonework and got the expansion to stop. This place is now listed on the Registrars List Of Historic Places. For a reference to this, just Google "Turner's Falls Ceremonial Stonework" or something of that nature. Also see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceremonial_stone_landscape

However, preservation of these places is pretty rare, developers destroy a lot every year (it is still not commonly accepted or understood these places exist). In fact, it was not commonly recognized that pre-colonial indigenous people did this kind of thing in my area (just another excuse to dismiss the significance of the culture that was here- what settler wants to think of it too hard anyway.) However, awareness for these ceremonial structures and the way the landscape was used is starting to increase.

At a Powwow last fall, I was discussing these things with a Wampanoag lady, and she was telling me some horror stories about some old grave sites she was trying to protect. And, just the other week, while casually riding my bicycle and exploring new places, I found a very significant (above ground) stone shrine (with other incorporated stone work) worked into a hillside. Amazing how many lightning strikes were right in that area, like every 2 feet :p I called my friend up the next day, who is a member of a research organization, and whose father worked for the Massachusetts Archeological Survey Commission, so that the place could at least be documented. I have seen many, many examples similar to this over the years in my (general) area, it never ceases to amaze me.

As for me, like I have stated before, I have American Indian ancestry. My grandfather was a board member of the Chicago Indian Center in his day, and he grew up in Allamakee County Iowa, where there is a national park which preserves American Indian mounds from the archaic period, Effigy Mounds National Monument: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effigy_Mounds_National_Monument These are sacred, ceremonial sites.

Now, for the fantasy world. People who are Cosplayers live in a fantasy world. People who play video games or computer games live in a fantasy world. People who watch more than 1 hour of TV a day live in a fantasy world.
What I am doing, is conservation, preservation, and learning about the past. I do not live in a big city, I live in a more rural area.

Now, as far as the rest of the world- yes, I like to research to know what is out there in the rest of the world, it is interesting. And with a growing public in these places, like the TV show America Unearthed (he did a episode about a Polynesian/Native American link the same week I posted a thread here about a possible Polynesian/Native American/Asian cultural tie here on this board. I guess I never explained that rhyme and reason.) Another interesting thing is the possible underwater Japanese ruins. If those are man-made ruins (which haven't concretely been verified either way) than when it was above water puts a spike in the current human evolution theory- this is just one example of a possible out of place artifact that is at odds with our current level of understanding. I am currently not involved with being in the professional world, so I do not think like a scientist. I realize someone such as yourself has to be careful. I am more interested in an understanding, than in tid-bit facts based off of scientific theories (for instance there is a "missing link" in the evolution theory.) At the same time, I do not under any circumstances subscribe to any whack-nut Ancient Alien theories and the like.

Anyway, that's all I wanted to say. Here is some more info on the pre-colonial New England stuff:
http://www.nativestones.com/
http://www.ancientlights.org/ (Dr. Jack Dempsey's website)
http://www.stonestructures.org/
Also google "Red Paint People"

I do have to thank you though, SoCo, you did bring me down to Earth, I will try to be more coherent and practical in my approach. I understand what you say.

[MarathonTmatt]

What?

What exactly do you think is meant by the term "scientific method"?

Anyways, we all have an agenda and it's always selfish. If I argue with somebody and try to sway them to my way of thinking it's not necessarily out of a genuine caring for their well being, I'm just trying to shape the world around me to what I want.

Do you really believe evolution has been proven false? I'm curious as to what you base that opinion on? Any references? You say you are a critical thinker yet if you don't understand the scientific method yet claim it has shown something to be false then that means you have just accepted the words of another without applying any critique. Know what I'm sayin? Bit of a contradiction there.

Well for the scientific method, I think it means observance of the scientific process, like a controlled experiment in photo-synthesis. "Apply the scientific method to find out if A works or if B works, etc." Well anyway, you are obviously more well-versed in scientific terminology than I am, I never studied science to a high level or made a career out of it.

Has evolution been proven false? I think there is a missing link in the equation, that is my understanding, that is what I had always read and heard about. If that is the case, then the way I see the evolution theory is like a glass house. It is at least a convenient model for our current level of human understanding, from a professional stand-point. I think a better question to ask (and you might want to seriously investigate this) is if the evolution theory has ever been proven beyond a doubt 100% true.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well for the scientific method, I think it means observance of the scientific process, like a controlled experiment in photo-synthesis. "Apply the scientific method to find out if A works or if B works, etc." Well anyway, you are obviously more well-versed in scientific terminology than I am, I never studied science to a high level or made a career out of it.

Has evolution been proven false? I think there is a missing link in the equation, that is my understanding, that is what I had always read and heard about. If that is the case, then the way I see the evolution theory is like a glass house. It is at least a convenient model for our current level of human understanding, from a professional stand-point. I think a better question to ask (and you might want to seriously investigate this) is if the evolution theory has ever been proven beyond a doubt 100% true.

Micro evolution has been proven, yes.
Macro-evolution has been proven "by default" ( macro is simply the "final" result of micro).
Even creationists agree with micro evolution.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Here is an article on what is happening in NYC. In its own backhanded way, it shares that the measles is popping up amongst some babies who have been vaccinated and completely dodges whether the same is happening amongst adults, writing that adults seldom maintain records of their past immunizations. This is outright boulder dash. The information can be accessed. The number of cases of the measles has increased 50% in NYC since the date of the article. Even though the actual numbers are low, it is cause for serious concern.

http://shotofprevention.com/2014/03/11/measles-outbreaks-are-concerning-even-to-the-vaccinated/



mickey

[SoCo KungFu]

Greetings,

Here is an article on what is happening in NYC. In its own backhanded way, it shares that the measles is popping up amongst some babies who have been vaccinated and completely dodges whether the same is happening amongst adults, writing that adults seldom maintain records of their past immunizations. This is outright boulder dash. The information can be accessed. The number of cases of the measles has increased 50% in NYC since the date of the article. Even though the actual numbers are low, it is cause for serious concern.

http://shotofprevention.com/2014/03/11/measles-outbreaks-are-concerning-even-to-the-vaccinated/



mickey

You're full of it. I used to work in health care (flight medic in military and tech in a VA hospital). One of the biggest issues is that adults don't know wtf is in their very own medical histories and patient information is a freaking pain to get access to because everyone in this country is so bat s hit paranoid about being spied upon that they killed legislative efforts to create a nationwide standardized program (even in military facilities, which is supposed to be f'n standard, most people don't even know what is written in the records they walked right in with under their very arm). This may shock you, but computers didn't always exist. I was still carrying around a paper medical record up until 2006, most don't even know to go to their hospital to get them transferred whenever they move to a new city. And then there's people like you...


Greetings,

I just want to take a moment to share that in NYC there have been pocketed outbreaks of the measles. The unusual thing about it is that it is occurring in poor neighborhoods, amongst people who are more likely to vaccinate their children.


mickey

Then I call you out on it. 1st you double down on stupid


SoCO KungFu, if you think I was making a statement about what is happening in NYC and using it as an example of what is going on all over in the USA, then maybe, you should stop reading with your ass.

And you side step your inability to verify the BS you post

Stats and studies never tell everything.

Now, this stupidity

In its own backhanded way, it shares that the measles is popping up amongst some babies who have been vaccinated

1) You're back peddling from confirmed vaccinated patients, to "some"
2) From the very f'n source

“Of the cases that have occurred in kids, most of them have been in kids that were too young to be vaccinated,” Deputy Health Commissioner Dr. Jay Varma told WCBS 880. “But we’ve also seen two cases that have occurred in people whose parents refused to have their children be vaccinated.”
No where in there does it say anything about outbreaks in vaccinated children. 2/9 were definitely NOT vaccinated though should have been. And some majority number (could be all 7) of the remaining are too young to be vaccinated. Reading comprehension is a good skill to have.

We've already covered the adults. You're either going to have to rejoin reality, or you can continue with your dumb a ss conspiracy theories and thinking they had computerized health records as early as potentially 80 freaking years ago (because we don't know the age of the adults infected).

Do you know what we say in research about the dangers of extrapolation? You're doing it.

8601

[David Jamieson]

When people don't understand, they fear.
I find it odd how much people seem to have lost their ability to think critically and have gained this uncanny ability to criticize what they clearly have no grasp of.

But then, I also find the difference between the language used in a 1960s newspaper and one of today.
The former being clearly directed at educated adults and the latter being directed as group 2 functional illiterates.

It's a very strange downward trend in the life of the mind. Intellectualism gets attacked an it really defines that the lowest common denominator is growing and is dumber than ever.
Frustrating.

[mickey]

Greetings,

SoCo KungFu,

I had a feeling you were gov't.

Everything I said is on point. Do whatever damage control you need. Stars and Stripes away!

You couldn't ignore me, huh?

mickey

[SoCo KungFu]

Greetings,

SoCo KungFu,

I had a feeling you were gov't.

Everything I said is on point. Do whatever damage control you need. Stars and Stripes away!

You couldn't ignore me, huh?

mickey

Ah yes, Im also spying on you through your toothbrush. Those weren't filings your dentist gave you. F'n moron.

Nice to see you don't have the maturity to admit you have no fn clue what you're talking about...

[Syn7]

Greetings,

SoCo KungFu,

I had a feeling you were gov't.

Everything I said is on point. Do whatever damage control you need. Stars and Stripes away!

You couldn't ignore me, huh?

mickey

Really man? I'm almost embarrassed for you, almost. You are going to reject the words of a man who does this for a living in order to support some antiestablishment bull**** bias? You have no legit rebuttal so you reject reality and simply substitute your own then? Must be dark up there, huh!

I'm not a biologist, I stayed away because the physics and maths were more than enough to keep me occupied, but even I can see you haven't a leg to stand on here. You quote blog sites that reinforce soco's point, you cherry pick data and then when it's pointed out to you you pull the government cover up card? Gethe****outtaherewiththat****playbwoy!

Ridiculous. I truly believe that at least 25% of the population are actual morons.

[mickey]

Greetings SoCo KungFu,

I do not know what to call someone who has the audacity to brag about working at the VA, the Cabal of Negligence and Death. You seem to enjoy calling me names. I can go there with you, easily. You are not worth it. I had better check my tooth brush and fillings because you are so there.


mickey

[SoCo KungFu]

Conspiracy theorists are those who claim coverups whenever insufficient data exists to support what they're sure is true. ~ Neil Tyson

[GoldenBrain]

Conspiracy theorists are those who claim coverups whenever insufficient data exists to support what they're sure is true. ~ Neil Tyson

Indeed! Dr. Tyson speaks the truth, but anybody who has followed his work shouldn't be surprised by that. I hear he was a pretty good wrestler too, and judging by his photos back then he looked like he could wad the average person up into a tiny little ball, all the while explaining how they are made from the exploded guts of a long dead star.