McDojo Stories

[KC Elbows]

How many of you guys have been a student at a McDojo or are in one now? Care to share some of your stories? Why do you feel your present school iis not a mcdojo?

I was in chung moo for quite a while. I'll spare you all the chung moo stories, they're all over this forum anyway. However, if you're bored, you can find my favorite one, one I like to call "Assistant Instructor Poopypants."

Reasons my school is not a mcdojo: My teacher does not make money off of it, we don't have to worship him, and we fight too often to hide any weakness in our kung fu.

[Budokan]

After we moved here and I had decided I wanted go get back into MA, I made a real effort to check out every dojo (and kwoon) around. This was above and beyond the best one. They made the lower ranks train separately from higher ranks; fees were comparable with other dojos but also included use of weight machines, jacuzzi, pool, sauna, etc. I sat in on a couple of classes and at first and was very impressed with the professionalism of the instructors and the high standard they demanded from the students.

I've been very lucky. I hear a lot of horror stories about bad places to train and have never been in any. I don't think staying in a bad dojo is better than not training on your own, by the way. Who needs the aggravation?

K. Mark Hoover

[KC Elbows]

Agreed. I learned more real martial arts, though my mechanics weren't right, in the time between leaving chung moo and starting kung fu, than I did in the years at chung moo.

[Rolling Elbow]

I used to train in some questionable jujutsu...techniques were rather static but at least the training was decent. Not a McDojo per say.

My girl friend just started TKD and after 3 classes she is bored stiff. With classes every hour and never more than 10 students a class, she complains and tells me they never offer her advice on how to kick or punch properly, how to use what she is taught, and more importantly, teach her through real fighters as opposed to the fat asses walking around with black belts. She kickboxed for two years and knows how to throw a good punch, kick combos, and work the clinch. She is a tough little fox..too bad she is wasting away in TKD. I warned her though..now she has to suffer through the remainder 3 months of her contract and will be lucky enough to get her "yellow belt" after practicing the same three punches and kicks for a month....sucker! lol.

I told her i'd do some pad work with her so hopefully her interest and spark for training will stick around.

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

[MaFuYee]

what? your boring girlfriend has a stiffy?

- neque mibi quisquam Judaeorum fabulas objiciat.

[KC Elbows]

On the flip side, once I took a few classes from a school that was not particularly good. The instructor was decent, but not good. Anyway, it was a small school, he just liked teaching, and he didn't charge his students very much. He was very kind to his students, and actually told me that I was welcome to practice at his school, but he did not feel he was good enough to be my teacher, so I was like a friend of the school.

There is a fine line between an honest, but ungifted teacher, and a mcdojo owner, and I think that what side of that line a school falls under depends upon the character of the teacher.

[phipsi229]

Budokan, they made your gf sign a contract? That should have been a dead giveaway that this school was a McDojo.

"Lord, what fools these mortals be."

[Rolling Elbow]

I knew it was a McDojo..she was convinced that it would be good because her friend trains there. (big slow guy)

Anyway, they are getting her into great shape so i'm not exactly going to knock on their door and throw down korean style'. :p

Michael Panzerotti
Taijutsu Nobody from the Great White North..

[Ima Pseudonym]

claymoore,

why do you feel requiring a contract designates a school as a mcdojo? in my own experience you get what you pay for, but i have seen substandard schools hide behind a contract to force their students into staying, so i know where the idea comes from, but i train under a contract at my present school and after 3 consecutive year-long contracts i know without a doubt it isn't a mcdojo :) so i don't think that means havin' a contract screams "McDojo"

I love the smell of iron palm in the morning, it smells like.... victory

[KC Elbows]

Ima,
Not trying to flame, but contracts are not my favorite thing, they stick the student with all the responsibility and deny them the choice to leave the style without suffering monetary loss. If a student decides to leave a school before the contract is up, why should the school receive a penny for not having to train the student? It's free money for the school, and that's not really right.

[SaMantis]

I study Wah Lum Tam Tui. Just "celebrated" finishing my 2nd year -- with pushups. ;)

Contracts are definitely a hot topic ... on the one hand, why should a student keep paying if he quits before his year is up? On the other hand, the instructor's gotta pay bills, even if he doesn't make a profit. So I think it comes down to how you feel about the school/system, and if the contract seems fair (if you have more than one choice, like 3, 6 or 12 months, and if you don't have to mortgage your firstborn just to get in the door). Your own choice.

My school has contracts, and of course every student has his or her opinion on them. But I did a lot of comparison shopping before joining. The rates are average and I do feel like I'm getting my money's worth. So I'm okay with it.

Sam

Umm ... yeahhhhhh ... that's grrrreat ... -- Lumbergh

[KC Elbows]

Its my opinion that once an instructor pays his bills by the cash of people who don't practice under him, then he is now the proud owner of a McDojo. His profits should come from his teachings, and there are other ways to get together more cash(seminars, etc.)
Glad this is staying friendly, though. I've seen schools that signed contracts, but didn't hold people to them when they wanted to leave. That's OK, I suppose.

[Shaolindynasty]

I know some schools give discounts acording to how long a contract you sign. So if you know you are going to stick with somthing it could work out for the students benifit. On the other hand I would take a few free lessons or at least sit and watch a few classes before I sign any contract. It should be the buyers responsibility to make sure they get what they want, if they sign up without looking into anything about that school or shopping around then they shouldn't complain about the contract cause it would be their fault, and no we don't have them at my school.


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[Ima Pseudonym]

no worries ;)

i hear where you are coming from, but here is my view on it. there are a few good reasons for contracts in my opinion, some good for the student and some good for the school. one good point for the student is it protects them from any rise in monthly dues. since our school is here in california we were hit very hard by the energy price hikes (we stay open 12 hours a day, light bill was enormous) and had to raise dues to cover it. those students who were on a contract were not affected.

now, from the school standpoint there is the cost of training, i.e. instructor pay, equipment and such. in my school in particular the first few months are almost exclusively private instruction, so they way i look at it the actual cost of the instruction is spread out over the year instead of the first few months being very expensive and then leveling off.

anyways, i gotta' get back to work, everyone have a good day

D

I love the smell of iron palm in the morning, it smells like.... victory

[Confucius26]

It's not a personal experience but it's too big to pass it by!

There's 9 Studios Unis d'auto-défense Kempo Karate
in english :"United Studios of self defence Kempo Karate". They are 15 in eastern Quebec province.
Just to compare there's 10 Burger King and 26 McDo in the metro area!

They are affiliated with Nick Cerio's Kempo.
The guy who started that, Clermont Poulin, is legit. He knows is stuff!

So what's wrong with them?

- The number of schools;
- 8-9 years old kids with Black Belts;
- Fees for all the belt tests (100% success rate)
- Too much competitions ($$$)
- Those who shout louder, jump higher and looks much like a gymnasts with their triple axels wins all. I've seen all that in their biggest international competition with people from as far as California (Paul Mitchell team).

If you know french or just out of curiosity : http://www.studiosunis.com.

But the biggest McKwoon in the area is own by an ancient student of my Sigung.
This guy learned the small and the large frame of Yang Tai Chi and a 1/2 of a Hung Gar starting form and decided that it was enough for him to start a school! Without is sifu's authorization of course!
This guy now pretend that is father teach him everything he knows!
His father never teach him a single technique because he think that his son is not worth of it!

$$$ is the only thing in his mind! He's the worst in town but he is the most visible. Big adds on highways, CMA symposium, etc. He like to be seen with big names of Chinese MA community!
This guy is a business man(successfull one i must say), not a humble martial artist
Enough time wasted on him!
Take a look here, http://www.sifutoy.com i think there's an english version of his site.
WARNING : nearly 100% of what he claims is false!

[phipsi229]

You have to know how good the school is before you sign a contract. A contract may be a good way to motivate a student to attend every class, but how does it motivate the instructor to provide a quality class?

Let's try to ignore feelings here and focus on the business aspect of MA. I, as a consumer, am paying for a service - martial arts instruction. I am a customer of my shrfu who is the service provider. If I am not happy with that service I should be able to switch providers, but a contract restricts that ability. I would either lose all or a large portion of my money if I terminated the contract. Think of it like your cell phones - how many of you are unhappy with the service but will not switch because you have a contract and it would be cost prohibitive?

Ima, you have been studying with your instructor for 3 years so signing a contract is not a big deal because you know what you are paying for and are happy with the instruction. Like most of us you probably also have a close bond with your teacher so money is not really an issue. In Budokan's gf's case she is stuck in a school she does not like because of a contract.

As a consumer (student) I dislike contracts unless they serve to fix prices. However they can be a good thing from an instructor's viewpoint.

"Lord, what fools these mortals be."

[SaMantis]

Protecting students from rate hikes -- I never thought of that ... good answer, Ima!

But that brings to mind that my school raised dues last year ... however they allowed all the current students to renew their contracts at the old rates, so everyone got a 2nd year for the same price they paid before.

A contract should have an allowance for students to cancel it if unforeseeable stuff happens: like, if they move more than 10 miles away, or they are seriously injured and can't train for several months. One of my training partners was in a car accident and will be in physical therapy for several months, so the school offered her the option of either canceling the contract or having those months credited so she could come and study later.

I think this clause is the law in Fla., I don't know about other states.


Sam

Umm ... yeahhhhhh ... that's grrrreat ... -- Lumbergh

[phipsi229]

I am not an instructor, but several of you are so I am going to need your help on this one.

I know all of you have seen students join your school, act very excited about studying, and then disapper in a month or two - usually when they find out it can take years of dedication to earn a black belt. Here is where a contract can protect the instructor. Acquiring new customers costs a lot more than keeping current ones, and that cost - whether opportunity or money - must be recouped. A contract can protect the provider from the whims of the consumer. Requiring that a contract be signed can force the student to think about what they are doing rather than just signing up based on emotion. Even if the student quits, the teacher recoups some of his cost by keeping what is left of the money in the contract.

A 3 month contract is not bad, but 6 months or longer makes me a little hesitiant to join up. Now that I have chimed in (and opened myself up for a huge flame war), what do you folks think?

"Lord, what fools these mortals be."

[SaMantis]

Hmm. Well, if it was up to me, I'd recommend a 3-month contract to students who are taking their 1st martial art ever.

They don't have the experience to tell a bad school from a good one, they probably are all jazzed up about learning MA. In 3 months (if they attend class regularly) they'll know whether they like the art or not.

Three months also doesn't cost very much, most students can just make one payment and they're covered until renewal time.

Sam

Umm ... yeahhhhhh ... that's grrrreat ... -- Lumbergh

[EARTH DRAGON]

hang on here, you guys seem to be looking at it only from a students point of view! now lets look at it from a school owners point of view.
If you plan to learn martial arts and you cant give you or your teacher a definate comminment then why are you joining? I am not saying that you should be forced to but if you plan on learning what do you think you will learn after less than a year? when i first opened my school my way of competing was NO CONTRACTS I would use this in my advertising and charge by the month. but what I found is that every month I had to go around and chase students for thier tuition every 30 days, and if the missed lets say the first week they would wait 3 more than come back and give me their next month tuition. That did not work at all I could never count on who would be there, I never got my bills paid on time and always paid late fees to everyone else.
And the drop out rate was incrediable, again no commitment. Then whenI opened my second location I started 3, 6 and 1 year contracts, everything worked out better, attendance was up every body showed up for class and parents felt like it was not a fly by night school who could close and month. So again you have to look at it from every point of view to judge something correctly, for one side of the story is only half the answer. I am far from a mckwoon I teach tradtional 8 step praying mantis in chinese to a small class of dedicated students, but contracts are a way of doing business and again if you cannot commit yourself to something for a year than who are you fooling?

http://www.kungfuUSA.net

[Shaolindynasty]

At the same time it should be the begginers responsibility to find out what a good school is. There are tons of resources available to learn a little about any type of martial art(I not talking techniques but common practices) or what a good school is. Before I found my school I watched a few classes at each school in my area, read some books, magazines and even some documentaries. Then after a year of shopping around and researching and decideing what I wanted, then I found what I was looking for. If I would have joined Joe Shoe's Karate and signed a 6 month contract it would have been my fault. While a beginner may not know much about MA they should still be responsible and protect their interests.


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[KC Elbows]

True, but if people decide to leave after a month, do you charge them for a service you are not having to provide? Style considerations are not the only thing that define a mckwoon, IMO.

Also, I have seen schools that do well enough without contracts. So contracts are not the only way a school can be successful. Therefore, are they necessary?

I think someone who shows an interest in learning the MA's should be encouraged to learn, but if they find they do not have a love for the arts, they should not then be penalized for their nature.

[Shaolindynasty]

The reason Mcdojos have contracts is to pay the rent. Thay cash in on the popularity of movies, media etc. but with a reason. Behind all the Mcdojo stuff there may be a few dedicated individuals and if the entire school was run the way they like to train those beginners wouldn't stay and the owner wouldn't get any money and the school would close. Contracts keep the "chumps" paying so the dedicated have a place to train. harsh reality but true


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[qeySuS]

I can understand how a respectable teacher could decide on having a contract, i know my old Shifu was getting really frustrated because people only came for 3 weeks and then quit, he tried to tell them that while they were learning the VERY basics it wasnt a lot of fun but it would get better. A very low percentage stayed on to see if he was right or not, usually bought one month, stayed maybe 3 weeks and flunked out.

I would understand if he would have wanted to have a 3 month contract in order for them to make some kind of commitment to the art and not just come in and leave in a matter of weeks, taking up his time for nothing.

Free thinkers are dangerous!

[qeySuS]

Ohh i almost forgot, the local Judo club is run by a guy that doesnt want anyone who isnt serious about training, he doesnt sell 1 month cards he only sellds 6 months. On the other hand you can train for the first MONTH for free while you decide if you want to train judo or not, after that your either in or out.

Free thinkers are dangerous!

[KC Elbows]

Q,
Go judo guy! IF you do contracts, that's the way to do it, not rake in money from people who only had a couple lessons to decide if they're gonna like it. :D

[Ima Pseudonym]

great point man, that's the way i believe, but nobody wants to hear that, especially the "chumps" ;)

I love the smell of iron palm in the morning, it smells like.... victory

[Shaolindynasty]

Yeah you should never let the "chumps" know. You always want to keep them comming in. An instructor of even student who pays attention can always tell who will stay and who will not. Most schools really only have maybe 5 dedicated students who can train hard day after day with litle reward, so they use those who won't make it to partially fund their training. Contracts make sure they will have that amount of money to stay open, it's easier to fight to get students on a 3 month basis than worring if you'll be able to stay open at the end of the week. Most people picture Mcdojo owners as men who now little and one day come up with an idea to get rich and dupe people out of their money with contracts, then they drive home in their limo with fat rings on and get naked and role around in a big pile of cash in their mansion. I can tell you confidently that practically NO MA school owner Mcdojo or otherwise doesn't struggle to make ends meet.


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[KC Elbows]

Unfortunately, some of those "chumps" are just interested people who thought they might like kung fu, but found their interests lie elsewhere. We get a lot of short timers at our school, but we don't assess our opinion of them as people or how we should treat them by their combat abilities or whether or not they are ultimately interested in kung fu. I understand the reasons that you feel you must take advantage of these people, but I don't think it justifies the attitude. If your teacher had considered you a chump, where would you be?

On the point of recognizing a chump when they walk in, I'd say you need some more life experience. I know one guy who a previous teacher thought would have real problems cutting it, but he did, and he is an extreme bada** these days. I'm sure if there's one of him, there's a hundred more out there.

[Shaolindynasty]

Well we don't really run our place that way but that is the thinking of most Mcdojos. We don't have contracts and our class is the same for everyone. Yet we teach at a park district cause we can't afford rent and those "chumps" usually leave after the first month or 2. To be completely honest we don't really bother to remember anybodys name until they have been there awhile. In the past MA students had to prove themselves to be accepted and this is the same thing except in modern times. I know this is america and i may get linched for saying this but they are lucky and should be thankful anybody took the time to teach them no matter how much they pay.


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[joedoe]

Why is it acceptable for a gym to make people sign contracts but not a MA school? Same principle.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

[Wongsifu]

you guys operate really differently in the states to down here , and what ive seen in the uk. Over here you pay per lesson or per month or you can take a contract out that benefits you , we pay around 45 usd per month for training here , gym or kf or kickboxing etc etc. or 4.50 us hour and a half lesson.

If we like it we stay for a month if we are sure we are gonna stick with it , we take out a contract for 3 mnths 6mnths or 1 year and the rate gets much cheaper like 300$ for the whole year . Its made for the students to benefit.

I personally think it sux imagine walking into a class you wanna do for fun or fitness or fightiung and having to say ok im gonna stick with this for 6 months , even though i dont know what the hell you do the rest of the days , this could be the only lesson you spar in for the next 3 months and then you all go round the back of the bicycle shed and bum each other.!!!

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

[phipsi229]

Actually, the reason I dislike contracts is because I signed one at a gym. I went regularly for 6 months, hurt my shoulder and have not been back. When my shoulder was fine I started studying kung fu and now I do not have the time to work out at the gym. I keep saying I am going to go back though, I really did enjoy the workouts and was starting to see some progress until I got hurt.

"Lord, what fools these mortals be."

[diego]

but toy means punk in streetslang

[Budokan]

I understand contracts from the teacher's perspective. Frankly, I wouldn't be against signing one now at my dojo because I know I'm in it for the long haul. But it's not really fair to make a newbie sign a long-term contract since so many of them drop out in a couple of months anyway. Still, my dojo does it month to month and that's pretty cool too.

K. Mark Hoover

[Royal Dragon]

I belive that contracts are for people and instructors that have few skills with student retention.

For example, Shaolin dynasty's remark about NOT bothering to learn a student's name for the first month. THAT my freind is the biggest attendance killer there is. My advice, is to take a basic sales and marketing course. Learn HOW to sell. The same sales tactics also apply to student retention.

Your class MUST be fun, and just challenging enough to keep them interested. You NEED defined and semi frequent recognition of advancement. For example, every 8-12 weeks, have a review, and officially recognise with a certificate or cerimony that the student has advance a bit. This builds a sense of accomplishment and motivates them to stay longer and contnue on.

Create a "Special" training program for those that have "hard core" potential. every once and a wile introduce your toughest mainstream student to that progam on a one on one basis and see if he sticks or goes back to the mainstream program. This way, you get enough student retention to survive and pay your rent and home mortages, yet you still have someone to teach your true art too.

I was talking on the phone the other day to a school owner (friend of mine) and he was complaining about not wanting to prostitue his art. I told him if that bothers him to just buy a bunch of Shaolin Monk video's and teach that stuff to his mainstream students, with basic kicboxing for the combat. This allows him to run a prosperious school, and still have a small dedicated core to teach his specialty to in the correct mannor.

Once you understand the whole student retention game, and the psycology behind it, you should'nt need a contract. in fact, my daughter's gym has 300 students, and there is NO contracts involved. They ARE the Olympic training phacillity for our area, and trust me, they train as hard or harder than most Traditional MA schools, yet they need no contracts!!! If THEY can do it, and have 300 students, WE can do it and have at lest half that.


It's all in your people skills really.

Royal Dragon

Those that are sucessful are also the biggest failures. the difference between them and the rest of the failures is this, they keep getting up over and over again, until they succeed. "The more they try, the more they fail, BUT, the more they try & fail, the more opertunity they have to succeed, and succeed they do!!"



Check out the Royal Dragon Web site & Message Board.

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com or http://www.dreamwater.net/biz/royaldragon/

[Shaolindynasty]

Does that gymnastic gym know all the beginners names? If the student complains what does the coach tell them? You said your daughters coach made her sit out once cause she couldn't catch the bar, that's rough. That's also the reason they have good student retention. They train their students hard, that breeds good gymnists, people see this and know if they want their kid to learn good gymnastics to take them there. I think being tough on people gains their respect. I think one problem with a Mcdojo is the touchy feely we need your business walk all over us approach. People now expect to walk in a school and have an easy time. My school doesn't opperate that way we are hard physically and emotionally that is the way to develop good martial artists. In asia students get beat for asking questions and for lack of ability. In america we can't beat our students but we can yell at them. I just had to get tough with some kid tonight because he wasn't focused. We may never have many students at least until we build our reputation for excellence. I want everyone to pay their dues like I did. I think the business aspect can seriously take away from what learning martial arts is. I'd rather have 2 good students than 1000 crappy ones


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[This message was edited by Shaolindynasty on 11-21-01 at 07:17 PM.]

[gazza99]

Disclaimer: All things contained in this post regarding said individuals are FACT, none is hearsay or meant to be put forth in a slanderous manner.


Uppon arrival at my first duty station for the Air Force I searched dilligently from a good school. I came upon what I thought was a decent kung-fu place. The place is Edmonds Martial Arts Academy, Sifu Ricky L. was/still is the supposed "Master". At first glance it looked decent im always willing to try something different. After doing a class I wanted to try it for a month or two so I could finish scouting the area. He presented a contract with the usual liability info..and a blank space at the top to write in the months, he said 12 months was the minimum allowed. I wrote in 12, and then I scratched it out telling him I didnt know if I could commit that long financially, and of course I may find something I liked better if I looked longer. He agreed that I didnt have to sign for a year, I just wrote a question mark above the scratched out number, and signed because he pointed out the liability portion.
After a month of class I had deduced that this school wasnt for me, It is my opinion that I could punch harder and move better than the teacher and all of the students. This was extremely evident after the teacher told me I could not spar anyone in the class because it was not fair, he said I should teach them something instead. So I quit coming, I recieved a letter in the mail stateing that I had an unpaid balence for the rest of the year, and they were going to collect on the contract! Furious I phoned the company and spoke with a manger, he said he had a fax of the contract and it clearly said 12 months, no scratch marks, 12 clear in print! I faxed him my copy with the question mark and the ink blob over the 12 which was the copy the sifu made for me right after I signed, So mine was a copy not the original which proved that he altered it!!
After some stern words the company decided that
for legal reaons (me sueing their aS##es off) they would remove my name from their database and drop the contract collection attemps.

Still furious and dissapointed I drove to the school. I asked nicely to see my contract, Ricky pointed to one on the desk and said "all same". I said NO!! I want to see MY contract, he pulled it out of the file drawer and there was white out over the month space and in different color pen and in obviously not my messy lefty writing the number 12 was carefully written over the white out. Of course when faxed it would look legit.
I saw blood, but I kept cool and just started getting loud the rest of the students would hear. I said a true master would never try and rip people off, I also said what he did was illegal and I should have him prosecuted for forgery. He looked at the ground and softly asked me to "please leave" then he said he would drop the contract and only charge me half the monthly fee to buy me off. I thought perhaps it was an honest misunderstanding as he was so nice about it, he said he doesnt teach month to month, but he would if I would come back to class.
Well I came back once at the enticent of the lower fee, and had such a bad feeling about the whole thing I could not come back.(Also the style itself was not up to my standards) In retrospect Its my opinion that his actions were pure crooked and I shouldnt have bothered to even speak with him. I should have gone straight to the local procecuters office and had his buisiness licence yanked..oh well.
side note: I overheard a phone conversation when I was waiting to speak with him, and he was saying "he signed, there is nothing he can do, he signed" that was a big tip off.
His website is
Edmonds kung fu ac. (http://www.kungfuokc.com)
Please if you know someone going to this school or are considering it please follow the link to my website and email or phone me first I can tell you more about it...
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[blaktiger]

of a McKwoon. The Chinese Shao-lin Center (gotta love that spelling). It's a Shaolin-Do school, run by descendents of Sin Kwan The. Nuff said?

The "master", complete in his black GI (!?!?!!) and various patches, was too busy working on his website to greet me, so he had one of his senior teachers "work me over". Oh, this so-called Shaolin center has a huge "watch me train in karate" window, and the students were barefoot.

Are you planning on taking your shoes off before you defend yourself? Then you belong to a McKwoon.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I'll be too busy lookin' good!"

[gazza99]

The forgery story aside After earning my teaching credential a year or two later I have a better perspective to offer on contracts.

I do not have them, but I also do not have to pay any rent/utilities as the Air force provided the facility (I contracted with the air force) They take a small percentage of the monthly fee and let me worry about everything else, and they provieded all the equip. I wanted. So from a buisiness standpoint I have a better starting point. But I have seen students think they will be Bruce Lee in a month, so the get discouraged or have the disallutions broken and leave. They wasted some of my time, but I give a free class or two so those people are weeded out a bit more.
I also invite all my students to go visit other schools to compare , I tell them If they find something better to let me know so I can attend as well!! If I had found a good teacher I myself would not be teaching as of yet.

I think contracts stop the student from just trying things for a month, but this bad for them! If they cannot try something for a few months to see if its for them I dont think its right they should be held financially to a contract if they just dont like it, or are suddenly unable to pay for some reason.
Contracts may be neccessary to keep a martial arts buisiness going if the clientel isnt abundant or the school cannot affort to advertise. But I think you have to sell out too a certain degree to make a decent living as a teacher. Hopefully this is not true, but so far it is my observation. Luckily I can teach part time with my current arrangement and not have to charge much, and not worry if I only take on a few people, it allows me to be picky about students and not worry about $$, and focus on training.
Regards,
Gary

"Of course thats just my opinion, I could be wrong"-Dennis Miller
www.pressurepointfighting.com (http://www.pressurepointfighting.com)

[Confucius26]

Diego!

Don't make fun of my english!! It's the best in town! :cool:

What's wrong?

[Shaolindynasty]

I don't feel our school is a Mcdojo because we don't sacrafice quality for $$. We also fight to much to hide weakness, we also do tons of conditioning. Unfortunatly we only have like 5 students, we teach at the local park district building and in the summer we like to use our parks.


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[Royal Dragon]

Yup, your guys are strong allright!!!


As for my daughter's gym, they've got it down, and we can all learn quite a bit from them.

And yes they DO learn ALL students names ASAP!!!

They have a simple technique for this, they take attendance!!! Every cleass, they start by calling out each students name and make them say "Here". The coach then sees the student and crosses off thier name in the book. The process takes about 3 minutes out of the class, but the coach learns EVERYONE'S name in the first part of the session.

I've decided to do this myself, just because forgetting students/customer's names is a well known method of driving away those customers. However, REMEMBERING student/customer names is a strong way to build ties, create positive relationships and thus build higher levels of student retention.

Also, I got the Main stream/Hardcore training system methods from them as well. It's a great idea, and works well for them. They get enough students to cover the bills from thier mainstream classes, and they STILL have hardcore gymnasts they can train RIGHT and instill the dedication and drive nessasary to compete on a National and internaltional field. Last year they produced some of the BEST gymnasts in the country. In past years, some of thier competitors BEAT Shannon Miller in national competition as well. Shannon Miller is considered to be the greatest female gymnast that EVER lived (Got to work personal security for her once :D )

I figure, if they can turn out world class gymnasts, AND make money without prostiuting thier art form too much (300 + students RIGHT NOW!), SO CAN WE!!!!

I for one plan to follow thier lead and structure my system after thier's, except I will replace all gymnastic skills with Kung Fu skills (well, I will leave some of thier conditioning, because it rocks!!) :D

Comments anyone?

Royal Dragon

Those that are sucessful are also the biggest failures. the difference between them and the rest of the failures is this, they keep getting up over and over again, until they succeed. "The more they try, the more they fail, BUT, the more they try & fail, the more opertunity they have to succeed, and succeed they do!!"



Check out the Royal Dragon Web site & Message Board.

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com or http://www.dreamwater.net/biz/royaldragon/

[MonkeySlap Too]

I gotta say RD has a realy valid point.

I remember two different occasions where I either helped turn a friends school around and where I took over a school to save someone's house.

In both cases I was able to boost retention by being considerate to the paying customers. To paying attention to thier needs and concerns. This in fact, allowed me to push them much harder physically and mentally than just treating them like sh!t.

I also added structure to the program - students would know what was expected of them.

Finally, I disposed of contracts (which I am not oppossed to) and replaced them with a one-rate plan. On one-rate you can set up direct withdrawal or recurring credit card payments. People didn't feel 'locked in', but I was gaurenteed a much more timely payment system with less hassle.

Also - if I sold 3, 6 or a year, it was paid up front at a deep discount. This improved cash flow - and these students tended to stay.

I also renegotiated the back debt - but that is a seperate topic.

The mindset of a commercial school has to be different from a backyard school. Most of my students know only the backyard, you make the cut or leave training I have used. But that is training for me.In a commercial school you are seeking to fulfill the needs of your students. They could care less about the ancient art of blow me jitsu chuan kenpo. They do care about different things. Each student is unique. Self defense, fitness, belonging to a group, 'fixing' thier life, improving concentration.

All of these things can be taught in a traditional context without expecting everyone to become Wong Fei Hung.

The dividing line between this and a mcdojo is wether you let everyone who isn't training tough think they are. You can never lie in this business. THAT is what dilutes the art.

By the way, you can do much better going to college and getting a good job than running a school. I have a day job and now it PAYS for my hobbies. Trust me on this one.

"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

[MonkeySlap Too]

If I could some up the philosophy:

'Let the student FEEL he is getting what he wants, while giving him what he needs.'

"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

[Daedalus]

When I trained in karate, the instructor was good, but it was still a McDojo.

Although the instructor was good, he could not prove his lineage nor verify his rank. The rank certificates that he gave his students looked like bad photo copies of an old NASKA certificate.

The facility was fair. Decent equipment and mats. Training was typical sport karate with emphasis placed on competition. I really think it was more of an ego trip for the instructor than it was money. He did not require contarcts, but some people paid more than others for the same classes.

The kwoon where I teach at now takes a different approach to membership. Students pay a flat monthly rate of $25.00. But this is not for instruction, it is a kwoon membership fee that goes to pay the bills and to purchase new equipment, etc. We give you your classes for free. As members, students can come by the school anytime that it is open and work out on their own (except during scheduled classes). They can attend any of the classes that they want anytime during the week (classes at their level).

If a student wants private instruction it costs $45.00 an hour with a 1 hr minimum.

Running the school this way helps us to weed out the uncommitted. Whether they learn or not is up to the student, not the sifu.

[Satanachia]

I'm pretty sure our class isn't just a belt factory, simply because we don't have belts or rank(well okay we've got begginers, teacher, and those in between).

[norther practitioner]

grabbed this from another site......pretty funny, lets add on
Signs that you are in a McDojo/McDojang - Joke
-------------------------------------------
1) You ask the instructor about Wing Chun, and he tells you he has only watched The West Wing
2) You ask him if he knows Choy Lee Fut, and he tells you that he doesn't know anyone in Chinatown that answers by that name
3) You ask him if you can learn Drunken, and he tells you he doesn't care if you train while drunk or sober
4) He teaches Tae Kwon Do based on Billy Blanks "Tae-Bo" video tapes
5) How fast you attain a black belt depends on how fast he gets his new Porsche
6) The length of your contract is proportional to the duration he needs to save up to see his kids through college
7) He has a photocopied autograph of Steven Seegal on the wall.
8) The only thing that gets bruised after the lesson is your wallet
9) He teaches you everything about being a Street Fighter. 2 years later, you are a great Street Fighter. You know how to use Ryu, Ken, Guile, Dhalsim, Chun Li ............
10) You need to buy different sets of uniform for Summer, Winter, Spring and Autumn.

[rubthebuddha]

11. you ask your sifu if you need to bring protection for class, and he replies, "depends on which team you bat for."
12. sifu's idea of a lion dance? drunken trips to the zoo and busting moves in front of the cat cages before security hauls him away.
13. the only heavy bag in the building is the enormous homeless woman that is trying to get squatter's rights with your sifu.

[red_fists]

14.) Sifu calls everybody Grasshopper, and the final 2 test involve:
snatching pebbles from his Hand and a hot cauldron in front of the Kwoon door.
15.) You have to walk down a Passage covered with sand to proof your worth of studying under him.

OTT, I know.

[Water Dragon]

The name of your school ends in -Do

[Felipe Bido]

:eek: Like Jeet Kune Do???

:D kidding *runs to hide*

[jon]

Your instructor dresses like Obi One and constantly refers 'Using the force' whilst performing movements.

You have forms for a lightsaber.

Your linage chart contains Yoda

Apperently none of the students show the potencial of a mysterious man by the name of 'Luke'.

The head instructor is refered to as a Jedi

Your greatest enemy is appently a 'Sith'



Sorry there not even that funny or related im just bored and making up rubbish:(

[Water Dragon]

Your Sifu makes ham for breakfast and tells you it's bacon :rolleyes:

you realize after training for months or years that you STILL SUCK.

[Skarbromantis]

Kungfuguy you should like this:

You have to chant the masters name and bow-in

You have been going over the same blocks for 3 months

Your teacher is 18

You address everyone in class by last name only

[KungFuGuy!]

Hahahaha, very good examples skarbro :D

* They tell you it's kung fu, but the instructor's certificate is signed by the international kempo association.

* No one is allowed to watch your classes, and you're forced to sign something that prevents you from teaching anyone the techniques (so no one can see how fake it is!)

* They spend 5 minutes of your lesson telling you about the latest products they have to offer that will "help you along with your training".

* KUNGROBICS.

* karate gis and belts in a kung fu school.

Stay away from temple kung fu!

[red5angel]

* You are female and are not allowed to wear a uniform, or anything for your first lesson or two...

* You are female and your school begins a 'new' regimen of grappling....

* You are male and your new school begins a 'new' regimen of grappling.....

* Your Sifus name is Ralek!

[Kuen]

You call your style Chinese Karate or use kung fu/karate as interchangeable terms.

Your Grandmaster looks like Chewbacca.

:D

[Chang Style Novice]

They teach evil genius monkey kungfu at the Mojo Jojo Dojo.

[Royal Dragon]

When you walk into the school , you MUST step in with the left foot first!!

When an instructor heads for the door, you and half the class must run to the door and open it for them. Oh yeah, the doors are actully strings of beads haning in the door frame so you must lift them for your instructor.


At the end of class after the intructor lines you up and walks down the line hitting every one, you are all directed to bow to the flags, then the instructor, and finaly each other and yell ''CHUNG MOO" as loud as you can before clapping insessively for 2 minutes.

Your instructor put you through the hardest most intense trainig you have EVER done, then wile completly exaughsted to where you can't even think straight and on the veverge of passing out completely, he brings you into the office with three other "Higher belts" and attempts to manipulate (or intimidate, if your not responding) you into signing an overpriced contract for the black belt course, when you not much above a beginner in rank.

Gifts of $100 or more are expected for Master's birthday, even though you have never,......... and probually never will see the man and secretly wonder if he even exists.

You must ask permission to date or marry (no lie, they did this)

You are giving THEM your paycheck and they give you back an "Allowance"

I could go on and on, but why.....................................

The sad part, is this WAS REALL!!!!!!!

Royal Dragon

[Tigerstyle]

LOL @ the "photocopied autograph of Steven Seagal" and "Your linage chart contains Yoda"


- If your instructor uses Tekken to demonstrate techniques.

- If your instructor uses Final Fight to demonstrate multiple opponent techniques.

- "Ninja Turtle" classes

- One of the pictures you pay your respect to is of the instructor's real estate agent.

- Your instructor loses a challenge match and says he lost on purpose to show how humble he is, but that he really could have beaten the guy if he wanted to.

- when you spar with your instructor, he always manages to get a hold of your wallet.

[Kristoffer]

Royal Dragon.. that's real?? That's ****ing sick!! made me uncomftorble man.. :mad:

[rubthebuddha]

while those schools themselves may be jokes, how you guys were treated isn't funny at all.

[Royal Dragon]

Yeah, I eventually quit and went to traing at Master John Tsai's school in Harwood hts, and then to Action Health club in River Grove under Master Steven Abbate and Rocky Lombari when Master Tsai retired.

Sad part is I know some of my former class mates are STILL in with that group. I think they are runnig classes for them now or some such thing.

RD

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

"You have been going over the same blocks for 3 months "

that could definately be a good thing dude.

[KC Elbows]

Just thought I'd share this wonderful site with you all:

http://www.oomyungdoe.com/

Here's a few choice bits from the site regarding that styles "grandmaster":

"Although he learned from many qualified teachers, a majority of the knowledge that Grandmaster "Iron" Kim possesses was passed down through Grandmaster Wang Po, the 7th generation Grandmaster of Yin Yang Doe."
-Apparently, this style is derived from yo-yo chuan.


"He was teaching others and, in fact, sponsored many of the Chun Dong Yang Moo Sul Yun Moo Dae Hwa championships,"
-The competition was later cancelled due to an inability to list the name on fliers.

"It was in 1972 that Master "Iron" Kim demonstrated the discipline and strength of (Kyong Gong Sul Bope) by successfully jumping from the top of a building eleven stories in height. Very few individuals have ever accomplished such a feat."

Just in case you thought that leap was a fluke:

"Numerous times Grandmaster "Iron" Kim has demonstrated the discipline and strength of Kyong Gong Sul Bope (flying side kick) by successfully jumping from the top of buildings the equivalent of eight stories and higher. A very small number of people have ever accomplished such a feat."

Wait, it gets better:
"In 1975, after the untimely death of martial arts actor Bruce Lee, Warner Brothers motion picture studios began their search for a replacement. After auditioning martial arts "experts" from around the world, Master "Iron" Kim was asked to screen test and was subsequently pronounced Warner Brothers selection."

In one of the most unusual demonstrations of martial power and dim mak, this martial paragon demonstrated how to kill a man through a crowd of spectators:
"To exemplify the "Sang Jung" (double open hand) strike Grandmaster lined up 50 people, all leaning slightly forward. Using Nae Gong and Wae Gong combined with a strike from his open hand only 8" away, the whole line fell backwards and collapsed on the ground. Again using the same striking movement, Grandmaster demonstrated his miraculous control by then hitting the first man in the line and only having the 15th man in the line collapse. The other 49 people were left standing as they were."

And my favorite demonstration of all time:
"To demonstrate the miraculous Nae Gong energy Grandmaster placed a portion of tofu on top of a stack of 12 large roof tiles. With one powerful strike from his hand to the tofu, the roof tiles were shattered leaving the tofu intact." :D

And finally, showing that he's a real man:
"The use of extraordinary Nae Gong energy to miraculously change the size of different parts of his body at will. Only a few people around the world are known to be capable of this feat. "

[Paul]

You are obviously Pa Doe. Iron Kim is the best. I'm learning Tai Chi Chung from him.

[ewallace]

If a school claims it can teach you to pull off sidekicks from an 11 story building, it is definitely not a mckwoon and should charge $300 per month with a 15 year minimum contract.

[KC Elbows]

It really is the best. No other art could destroy so well, and yet leave the tofu intact.

[Mutant]

Still off doing battle with the chung moonies, heh KC?

They certainly are a rediculous lot. That Iron Kim guy cracks me up :p one of the biggiest MA frauds ever.

They just might be the ultimate mcdojo of all time.

Coincidently, I've been laughing about that school all day. Just today at lunch i was out walking around and actually found a chung moo doe school right near where I work. I'm all excited about it, I want to go by there and talk to them just for laughs. This could be the source of endless lunchtime entertainment! I'm going to ask the sensei if he can jump off the roof of his building for me or teach me the tofu striking technique :D

[Xebsball]

BAAAAAAAA GUAAAAAAAAAAAA

BAAAAAA GUAAAAAAAAA

[Budokan]

It's not fake, it's real. It wouldn't be on the internet if it were fake.

[old jong]

I agree wid mah' homey Budokan who be de ultimate troll and jerk busta' on dis bo'd uh martial arts 'espuh'ts and hight
practishuners.If dat great-grand master can kick some cesna in mid air in his website,ya' gots'ta recon' it o' else! Right on!...;)

[Kumkuat]

man, haven't you guys seen Millionare's Express? Yuan Biao jumps off of that burning building and didn't break anothing. he must have studied Oom Yung Doe with Jackie Chan or something.

[diego]

isnt this a contradict,

how can you have a mind in a body withiout the knowledge to define it, without you are as a centipede.

[KC Elbows]

Here's a hilarious one posted on RD's forum by a guy calling himself "Proud OYD Instructor 2002".

"True Martial Arts, and the clarification of O.Y.D. history. Yes the truth is that O.Y.D. history is a little misleading or seems incomplete, But history of most martial arts is this way, you have to remember that most practitioners were illiterate. When masters wanted to pass on their wisdom, they would put their experiences into songs and poems, since these were easier to remember than prose. Such poems contained the key points of the art, and were secretly passed down to only the most trusted students. Following is a poem/song that was passed to higher belts of the O.Y.D. organization, and only in the last decade have these poems/songs been revealed to the general public.
Although these songs and poems have played a major role in the preservation of the knowledge and wisdom of the masters, in many cases the identity of the authors and the dates of origin have been lost. These songs and poems, which contain the theory, training methods, key points, and above all the experiences accumulated over the past few centuries. Without further ado a poem that strikes to the heart of O.Y.D. (True Martial Art) philosophy.

"Money, get away
Get a good job with more pay and you're O.K.
Money it's a gas
Grab that cash with both hands and make a stash
New car, caviar, four star daydream,
Think I'll buy me a football team

"Money get back
I'm alright Jack keep your hands off my stack
Money it's a hit
Don't give me that do goody good bull****
I'm in the hi-fidelity first class travelling set
And I think I'll need a Lear jet

"Money it's a crime
Share it fairly, but don't take a slice of my pie
Money so they say
Is the root of all evil today
But if you ask for a rise it's no surprise that they're
giving none away. "

[wu_de36]

What's worse?

A McDojo, or a cult?

This one could go either way.

[ewallace]

a McCult.

[KC Elbows]

They're the McMoonies

[Mutant]

I love that picture of the ChungMcMoonies' dog faced master; half man, half beast. That is priceless. I couldnt find it on their site last time i looked...i wanted to download a copy of that hairy b@stard for my collection.

[KC Elbows]

The dog faced master is either temple kung fu, or shaolin do, not chung moo quan.

[Radhnoti]

Mutant Warrior, you're mixing your board whipping boys. That's the shaolin-do great grandmaster.

[Mutant]

my bad.
now thats some bad azzed lineage that the shaolin do lab rats have, the dog master rules!
off to the shaolin doe site...

[Nthman]

They actually have a school fairly close to me..I have driven by a few times and ..well my impression was that it was cheesy as hell but I didn't go in or talk to anyone so I can't really be objective. I do have a friend who studied Wing Chun briefly who visited the school and said it was a lot of taking **** from a drill sargeant type instructor and that the students didn't seem to have much skill.



They have cool lookin uniforms though!! hee hee hee

[KC Elbows]

Nthman,
That's a fair description. I was in the school until 1st degree, and it was the biggest waste of my time ever.

Fortunately, some friendly kung fu practitioners were willing to spar around with me, and I realized that I didn't really know how to fight. At the same time, I was reading up on pa kua, and realized that what I had been told was absolute trash.

[DelicateSound]

Delicate Sound should like this
Beautiful KC!!! :)


I would of loved that, but......
[INSERT DODGY 1970's LIP-SYNCH]

"You have offended my Oom-Yung-Do Heritage, and now you must Die!!!!!"

[Delicate proceeds to side-kick out of his eleven-story window and arm-outstretched flies his way in the direction of Kansas City]


[shouts] "I'm coming to get you KC..............................."


:)

[MonkeySlap Too]

When I was a kid, my favorite thing to do was 'play' with the Chung Moo Quan instructors. They ALL thought they were on top of the world, and their rather, er unique training insured that they would get wupped every time.

Truly a laugh riot.

In my school, we have a rule where we do not gossip or talk trash. The only exception to talking trash is OYD, because sometimes you need to take the trash out. They are criminals, a cult and a fraud. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Oh , and they will talk big, but will NEVER fight someone who knows what they are doing.

Warn your neighbors!

[Nthman]

Heh heh so..is this crazy style more worthy of mocking than Taekwondo? I certainly hope so...heh granted there is crap in Taekwondo..but what ISN'T there crap in..ie Bob Klein. After nearly having my arm broken by an olympic style guy's kick I have "slightly" more respect for the style heh heh heh

Me: Think I will work some kicks in against this guy<BAM! BAM! BAM! BAM...BAM! BAM!>

Me: "Ow"

[Nick Monticello]

He actually had to shut one down, and open it up with different software that allows him to bann people.

Take a peek at the Chung Moo battle at

royaldragon.4dw.com click on the Dungeon forum.

He's blocked them from his Kung Fu forum, so they aren't there.

[Tsuruken]

Is this guy a McDojo?: http://www.kohokan.net/home.htm

It's one Chuck Chandler. Anyone heard of him. I have had my own dealings with Mr. Chandler and associates only to discover several very questionable practices such as supplying ranks that were "creative" (possibly forged) for tremendous amounts of money, his unique "modifications" to kata from the originals, awarding of high dan grades supposedly from Okinawa (really copies of certificates!)

What is the general opinion of other members?

[HuangKaiVun]

My opinion?

Mr. Chandler practices karate.

[Tsuruken]

Yes but is it any good and does he conduct himself with honor?

[tnwingtsun]

Next time I'm in the land of the "Swamp Fox"(which should be soon) I'll

check him out,if he can't cast a shrimp net then he ain't

worth a $hit...........

[rogue]

I hope I'm wrong but I think my school may be in the first stages of becoming a McDojo. We're a traditional no frills school that was known as being a little tougher than most TKD schools, but that may be changing. Warning sign number one, I've noticed a growing number of kids showing up at classes that used to be for adults, sometimes they even outnumber the adults. Nothing adds more to ones training than a bunch of kids dropped off by mom (who then takes off) talking and walking out of class.

Warning sign two, I've noticed that the number of women in the class is growing and the number of men is shrinking. The problem? The women are becoming more vocal about the men being too rough during sparring and self defense, some of the guys (who are black belts) are getting frustrated and leaving. Yesterday I got to see one guy get dressed down by a female for landing a clean kick. Excuse me but this is a martial art and getting hit, sometimes hard, has to be expected and accepted. The whole spirit of the place is starting to change. Right now I'm going to take a wait and see position to the situation and see what happens, hopefully it's just a bump but I'm getting worried. I love the style and have excellent instructors and I'd hate to leave.

Rant over, carry on.

[Liokault]

Lol we have a great way of controling the number of kids in our class.

When we feel there are to many we make them sparr full contact.

Any that come back are more than welcom.

BTW its not a test of kids but a test of their mums.

[rogue]

That's the thing, we're known for going at it hard but controlled. What's happening now is that it may be moving more toward just controlled. I'd hate to see the school turn into a place that's just playing tag.

[Liokault]

Well if you wanted reallity,blood,sweat and tears why did you go into TKD?




Hey just kidding......i think I am one of the few guys here who have much respect for TKD.

[rogue]

LOL, it is an odd choice and I left the JKD world to do it. It's supposed to be the other way around isn't it? :D

[Budokan]

Sounds to me like your school doesn't have separate classes for beginners, intermediate and advanced students. My dojo does and it eliminates a lot of the problems you've outlined.

You make an excellent point, though. This is martial arts, not a catch-me touch-me giggle fest. If someone doesn't want to get hit then she needs to go into tae bo or pilates....

[gazza99]

Rogue you missed the #1 sign that your school is a Mcdojo

1.They teach Tae kwon do.

:D

Really though, I am sorry. The teacher should seperate the class, perhaps have an "Adult mens class" so you can focus on hard sparring without the nagging and crying.

regards,
Gary.

[rogue]

Gary, You evil TKD basher!:mad: :D BTW Gary, when I get a chance I want to share my observations of the Tai Chi guys I worked out with you. Even did a little TKD vs TC sparring with a few of the guys which was fun. You Tai Chi guys are a real pain in the hind quarters in close with that stealing the center/balance stuff. :)

Yup, we do all train together which is great when you're a color belt and you're exposed to some pretty good black belts. But we have had guys reach brown or black and then move on since you'll still doing what you did 3 to 5 years ago. You will get very good info, tips and tricks from the schools master but it's still focused on the basics and using them at a higher level (I hate that phrase;) ), so beginner, intermediate and advanced classes may be better. The "Adult mens class" would really raise the hackles of the women, which may be worth it just for that. :D The weird thing is that the ones doing the most complaining are pretty good at sparring, they just don't seem to see it as a part of martial training, but something that's done for it's own sake.

[fa_jing]

I felt I had absorbed all there was to learn in TKD in the space of two years. Because the way my instructor taught it, it wasn't much more than a set of exercises that you do with your legs. Then I learned some moves and tactics during sparring. The thing is, the instructor had a wide arsenal of self-defense techniques, etc. that came down from Karate but he rarely exposed us to that element - as if it was too hard to teach, or something. I had to stop due to a knee problem, anyway.

[Chang Style Novice]

Call it a "hard contact" class, if the phrase "adult men's" bothers the twists.

[rogue]

Call it a "hard contact" class, if the phrase "adult men's" bothers the twists. Very PC Chang.;)


I felt I had absorbed all there was to learn in TKD in the space of two years. fa_jing, which branch of TKD? Was the instructor Korean, American or some other? What did they teach? I'm just interested in hearing about others experienes with Korean arts.

[Chang Style Novice]

I don't mean to be PC. Anything that makes smacking dames around more acceptable is good by me.:rolleyes:

[TkdWarrior]

TKDist on KFO??wow intresting i thought i m the lone warrior here...
hehehe...well about the girlies man if they can't take it they shouldnt be there... two girls in my class and believe me...they got beaten really rough...if they say anything ..."Ok u can leave"
kids can be nuisance... dunno ppl think TKD is crech for kids :D
only one kid in my class and amazingly he's the one who work out best...i never see him miss any practice...if it means 50 push ups then he do it(sometime even i misses :D)... ewwww.... ouch...
expereince with Korean arts?? well mine's better than anyone...
all thnx to my teacher... and one aikido guy who beat me up ;)
-TkdWarrior-

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice
Call it a "hard contact" class, if the phrase "adult men's" bothers the twists.

Another reason to call it a "hard contact" class is that I'm a twist who doesn't mind taking a punch. I like to know I can. I want hard contact when I spar. And I am a hotty. And I shrug off accidental contact to the 'bikini area'.

You don't want to remove the possiblility of another version of me in your fetal McDojo.

[anton]

Originally posted by eulerfan

...And I am a hotty. And I shrug off accidental contact to the 'bikini area'.

Big mistake.... Obviously you haven't been around here for too long.
Let the not-too-subtle flirtatious posts begin!!

[SanHeChuan]

eulerfan, who's SD school do you go to?

Rouge, do you fell comfortable discussing you concerns with your instructor? If he's losing long term students because of it, it is a problem.

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, Eulerfan, that's what I was really getting at: there's no reason a class where the sparring is more live than less should be limited to the fellas. If you can hang, you can hang, no matter what your chromosonal configuration is. And the name of the class should reflect that.

As for the "bikini area" - you really don't mind getting hit there atoll?

(I'd like to apologize for that last sentence:p )

[old jong]

Hey Rogue!
Are you in WTF or ITF?
If you have a good instructor and want to stay with him,why not form your own sparring group with guys who want the same thing as you?...

[jon]

Cant you just do what we do in Tai Chi class and split up for sparring?
Seriously there are a few guys who do my internals who ive never seen more with aggressive intent. There simply purely there for the health and energy side of it.
Then when me and my friends stick on gear and start attempting to beat the heck out of each other they give us strange scared looks.
The point however is that those of us who like to spar do and those of us who dont like to spar do other things.


lol there is also one guy i just DONT get.
He used to do Goju Ryu karate for 20 years, he has now done bagua and tai chi for 6 years. Ive pushed with him but never sparred and he is SO soft he litteraly just caves strait in:confused:
He can kinda push ok but i just keep wondering what the heck happened to that 20 years of hard stuff and why he NEVER moves with any force anymore. I do know he talks a LOT about chi and that always scares me.

Anyway back to the point...
Can you not just do your own thing a bit?

[old jong]

Go= strong
Ju=soft
They learn about the soft side in Goju ! If you ever see a demo by a high rank in Goju,you might think it is Tai-chi sometimes!...

[guohuen]

I used to spar with Jhoon Rhee students before they had kids in class. They were very good. I put my vote in for kids being in a separate class. When you lower the standards to accomodate new students you degrade the whole program.

[rogue]

SanHeChuan, My instructor and I are on very good terms so I can and will talk with him. The situation could get messy though between him and some of the ladies.

Jon, The problem is that sparring is one third of our training and is kind of mandatory for advancement.

OJ, ITF. I did belong to a sparring group that had a nice mix of a couple of kickboxers, a Judoka and two WC guys. We lost our training area, a community center that one of the kickboxers used as a school, when the manager found out what we were doing after class was over.

TkdWarrior, Yup there are a few of us here. What kwan are you from?

guohuen, we have a kids class that's grown so fast that some get to train at what should be the adults only class. It's a problem that my instructor is working on since the kids now outnumber the adults. Sometimes success can be the enemy.

It may come down to what each of us wants from the school, with the instructor having to make a choice between keeping long term students or gaining more students but losing what made us different from other schools in our area. Personally I'd rather us switch to two man drills than to go the patty cake/tag way of sparring.

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by Chang Style Novice

As for the "bikini area" - you really don't mind getting hit there atoll?

(I'd like to apologize for that last sentence:p )

Don't, it was cute, but I'd like to clarify. I wasn't talking about getting hit there. I mean, in a real fight your opponent won't avoid hitting you there so it's counter-productive to make a rule about it in class. But it almost never happens because guys don't generally try to hit the chest of an opponent. It's not an effective target, generally.

Now, maybe you are too much of a gentleman to do this. The guys in my class aren't. They definitely use sparring as an opportunity to cop a feel. As long as they are subtle about it, I act like it was an accident. It's motivation to really try to get past my defenses and really challenge me. So I'm sort of cool with it.

Once, a guy out and out grabbed my boob. Put his whole hand on it and squeezed. Next point, he learned what I knew, that if you kick the groin from underneath, upward but slightly angled towards yourself, you can use a guy's cup against him.

He knew I did it on purpose but he couldn't say anything without admitting to WHY I did it.

That little puss won't even fight me anymore.

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by SanHeChuan
eulerfan, who's SD school do you go to?


I'm in David's school in Houston. We're sort of the redheaded stepchild of SDA.

YOUR SIFU IS AMAZING! I saw him do the drunken kata at a tournament a little over a year ago. That's all any of us talked about after the tournament.

Bar none, the most impressive thing I've seen anybody in this school do. Just a consummate athlete.

Is he as good a teacher?

[Merryprankster]

Wow, a hottie (even self proclaimed) AND an Eulerfan.

I'm going to go start reviewing my natural logarithmic functions now....

[TkdWarrior]

why i found all u KF guys so amusingly prevert?? :D

hey Rogue i m ITF guys too...it's cool ain't it...u know my class become McDojang ;) but wat my teacher did was something different.
he start taking one extra adult class where he would teach them advance.... with a stick in his hand, he wacks us when we do it wrong.... :( that class is basically three hours long and we can attend all the classes and then on weekend this adult class...
the in adult class babes r not treated like babes they r much of an oppnt. i used to take care so much when i was attacking, now they r getting used to ;)
if ur teacher can't do change his ways wat he can do try to hav n adult class like we r doing...

-TkdWarrior-

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by guohuen
When you lower the standards to accomodate new students you degrade the whole program.

amen.

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by Merryprankster
Wow, a hottie (even self proclaimed) AND an Eulerfan.

I'm going to go start reviewing my natural logarithmic functions now....

Heh,

In keeping with the whole prevert theme, you know he taught Catherine the Great, right? I think he was her court mathematician for a while, too.

[SevenStar]

what a horrible death she had...

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by rogue

fa_jing, which branch of TKD? Was the instructor Korean, American or some other? What did they teach? I'm just interested in hearing about others experienes with Korean arts.

OK, he was trained in ITF, but left because he felt they were pushing Buddhism, which conflicted with his own religious beliefs. He was kind of a wacko himself, but I don't want to get personal. He was an american guy. I studied about 12 years ago and our instructor was about 35, so when he was learning in the 70's it was some of the earlier TKD style. The man was a truly great kicker. Like I said, he emphasized the stretch kicking and other kicking on the wall. The advanced students would do up to about 1000 kicks a night, when he chose to emphasize that. He was pretty good at teaching TKD sparring too, but it depended on the class members as to how hard and often we went at it. We did a sort of light contact sparring, especially to the head, which was no-contact for underbelts. He would stick us to the body with the kicks, though. The whole method of kicking was more based on Bill Wallace's kicking style than on traditional TKD - the knee was chambered as high as possible for side kicks, turning kicks, and hook kicks. The idea was to execute these three kicks from the same chambered position, so the opponent wouldn't know which one was coming. I'll write more later.

[Budokan]

Catherine the Great did not die from a romance with a horse. That's just a really old urban legend.

Mama Cass didn't choke on a ham sandwich, either, for those who are keeping score...

[fa_jing]

We emphasized the front leg kicks over the rear leg. Half-turning kick was a good one. Striking was with the ball of the foot generally, rather than the instep. We did punching drills, but were not taught to use the punches and kicks in unison. Blocking was also pretty much glossed over. We had forms that were adapted from the traditional ITF forms, but we never knew what the moves were for. We were taught to face side-on with the strong leg forward. Step-behind side kick and sliding side kick were two ways of getting in there. Jump kicks were also taught. All of the tests required board breaking, in addition to forms and sparring. Like I said, the instructor knew all sorts of self-defense, stuff like you might find in Hapkido. But he only showed it to us a 2-3 times out of the 2 years I was there. We did 1-step and 8-step sparring, which taught you how to break a few holds, basic self defense stuff, but nothing very complicated or interesting.

I would move over to Hapkido if I had to pick another Korean art.

[fa_jing]

One more thing - there was way too much emphasis on "snap" which is making your uniform make a snapping wound when we punched and kicked. That's OK in some respects, but it encourages you to hyperextend your limbs. That's how I ended up hurting my knee. It also is not the be all and end all of power generation - it just teaches you retraction.

[rogue]

Thanks fa-jing, sounds like the schools we had around back in the early eighties. They were really pretty tough back then.

"the knee was chambered as high as possible for side kicks, turning kicks, and hook kicks."

I believe that's the way the Olympic guys do it now, and I've even seen some hapkido schools do it that way too. I hate snappy kicks, not to be confused with the practical Okinawan versions. I've just seen that there's a Kuk Sool school in my area that I'm going to check out.

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by Budokan
Catherine the Great did not die from a romance with a horse. That's just a really old urban legend.


That is absolutely true. However, it is worth mentioning that this rumor didn't start because the woman was a paragon of virtue.

[anton]

Originally posted by eulerfan


That is absolutely true. However, it is worth mentioning that this rumor didn't start because the woman was a paragon of virtue.

In those days any woman that showed some element of sexuality would have her "virtue" questioned.

[SevenStar]

Someone needs to tell a few musems that. I went to a huge exhibit dedicated to her, and that's how they said she died. It wasn't quite romance though - she had a stuffed horse suspended above her bed and she would fondle it at night. one night it fell....

brings new meaning to the term "hung like a horse, huh?"

seriously though, check out http://www.wonders.org/ they host several exhibits a year. all the ones I've been to are very interesting. the two best that I've seen were "The Tombs of Ancient China" and the "Splendors of the Ottoman Sultans"

I wonder why they didn't know it was a rumor :confused:

[jon]

"she had a stuffed horse suspended above her bed and she would fondle it at night. one night it fell...."

* Im going to fail to comprehend that due to my poor ability to process information which could lead to a possible meltdown of my ablity to function in a rational sane mannor.


FARK:eek:

[TkdWarrior]

fa_jing i m amazed why u wer never warned about hyperextension of ur limsb..i got this message on the very first time i kicked in TKD, anyways ur school sounded like great...
anyways i never heard of 8 step sparring i know 3 , 2 and one steps...mind telling me about it... and about self defense and sorts i guess it's all over in Gen Choi's encyclopedio of TKD, it's worth buying(very costly around 16 volumes) i hav been exposured to practiced all sort of self defense standing ,sitting on chair/sofa/legs bended, without any room for moving at all... some chin-na style of grabbing... locking/throwing... everything...
and those techs wer drilled hundreds times...
"but nothing very complicated or interesting."
fa_jing anyways i wonder do u find complication intresting??isn't self defence meant to be straight n neat with simplicity??
or u mean u need some classics to read n ponder?
like with 4 ounce u can reflect 10000 pounds?? eh...:D

-TkdWarrior-

[eulerfan]

Originally posted by anton


In those days any woman that showed some element of sexuality would have her "virtue" questioned.

Sorry, I didn't mean to make it seem like I was inferring that from the rumor. She was open about her sexuality and there are historical accounts of her proclivities.

She wasn't the second coming of Caligula or anything. The horse rumor isn't really representative of her activities. She was more like what would happen if Madonna had her own private army of men at her command.

It's pretty understandable, too. She didn't lose her virginity almost until her first husband was dead. He was impotent. She was older and already had a lot of power when she discovered that facet of life.

[fa_jing]

I don't know, it was 12 years ago. We didn't spend a whole lot of time on self defense. Maybe it just didn't have enough flow for me. You're right, complicated does NOT equal better. Anyway I was aware that there was alot more stuff in TKD, that we weren't being shown. Partly because they didn't start to emphasize that stuff until after Black Belt, and when I was there, there usually would only be one or two in the class. My point is, once you've learned the correct form of kicking and the leg exercises, why go to class? Unless you are planning to compete in TKD competitions.

[TkdWarrior]

"My point is, once you've learned the correct form of kicking and the leg exercises, why go to class?"
that applies to most of all styles of external MA...
anyways i found most ppl those who r learning TKD doesn't do taekwon-do they do tae-do ....they r not familiar with kwon part of TKD... i guess TKD teaches much more than just plain kicking...
i found it very very vast...
-TkdWarrior-

[NPMantis]

http://www.zyworld.com/mwright/

Sounds a little too mystical to be quite valid, does anyone agree? It is near me and I thought I might go along for a look.

[joedoe]

Why do you say mystical? Looks like a JKD school really.

[NPMantis]

Well, all this 'closed door, now recently opened to beginners for a limited time then they will be closed again' stuff.

...and how many closed door schools have a web site?

[carly]

I haven't been too impressed with the "I've taken seminars with hartsell, inosanto, vunak" type guys in general.
Why not buy some straightblastgym videos and practice what you can learn from those with a like-minded friend if good JKD really interests you?
And the closed door stuff is questionable here - whether you lik eit or not, "closed door students/classes" is a traditional concept and practice which only a traditional and secretive system can offer.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by NPMantis
Well, all this 'closed door, now recently opened to beginners for a limited time then they will be closed again' stuff.

...and how many closed door schools have a web site?

Fair enough. I guess their reason is OK though - to maintain the quality of the teaching. It does sound a little gimmicky though.

[Serpent]

It's JKD. Of course it's gimmicky.

[The Xia]

Alrighty, a fun little game. Take Jeff Foxworthy's "You might be a redneck if" and replace redneck with mcdojo. I'll start.

You might be a mcdojo if the Sifu refers to "The Empire Strikes Back" as a Qigong instuctional video and your lineage traces back to a "Master Yoda".

[Ray Pina]

....

If there's a sign for Karate, Shaolin Kung Fu, Yoga, cardio kick boxing, Tai Chi AND kids' birthdays parties all on the same front window hosting a painted figure doing a high side kick.

[MasterKiller]

If an 8 year-old is leading the adult class...

[Pork Chop]

If your belt rack has more colors than Benetton (sorry akhilleus EDIT: as in, "i'm not referring to your school").

[TenTigers]

Your instructor has mastered "Ancient Chinese Kata number one, through six"

[TenTigers]

They sell "Karate Kid" headbands in the pro shop....

- and you may wear them during class.....

-and people do.....


-and they're grownups.

[TenTigers]

you own a patch for each of the five animals,
- and you wear them all
-on your uniform
-just like "SHidoshi"

[TenTigers]

you're working a takedown with your partner, you merely touch his leg and he crumbles in a heap,
and the instructor says, "Excellent throw!" Next!"

[chud]

your 'drunken monkey' style kung fu requires flinging poo at your opponents.

[BruceSteveRoy]

hey don't knock the ancient style of 'hu flung pu'.

might be a mcdojo if one of your students is on the final fu.

i'm still so angry at that show and still have to watch it everyday.

[Citong Shifu]

If your school advertises kungfu. but teaches karate, TKD, JJ, etc.

[Chief Fox]

If you've trained realistically and can beat the cr@p out of every 12 year old in your class.

[Oso]

...you refuse to talk to anyone on the phone about what style you do, how much your classes are or even when the classes are scheduled unless you come in for his 'presentation'....wait, did I call a martial arts school or a timeshare organization?????

[Chief Fox]

You're not sure if you should put your new "black belt club" patch above or below your "demo team" patch.

[Banjos_dad]

you get the 'fish eye' when you say the word 'lineage.'

your teacher pronounces 'chuan' as 'kwon' (as in "we do nan bai ji 'kwon'" --my apologies to all legitimate southern white crane teachers).

[Royal Dragon]

No, that would be a cult....

[The Willow Sword]

if at tournaments you wear a green sequin gi and do your form to "My Humps" by black eyed peas:D

OR your founding grandmaster is chewbacca;) :p :D


peas and wub, TWS:cool:

[The Xia]

the school has a contract that grants them powers of attorney.

[Citong Shifu]

Your teacher has the class give each other high five's after every drill, lol.

[The Xia]

All of your forms open with the macarena.

[Shaolinlueb]

if you teacher claims to be world champion kata champion the same year chuck norriss was

if you teacher says no stop, switch your feet and throw a punch like this to get the technique to work cause he cant do it free style.

[Citong Shifu]

If you have a 3 year guarantee black belt program, lol. :D

[The Xia]

belts come with a KFC coupon thats good for a free fountain soda with purchase of any bucket of chicken.

[godzillakungfu]

yesterdays white belt is todays new Black Belt instructor.

[Citong Shifu]

When you 6 year old test's for his/her 3rd degree black belt.

[David Jamieson]

when you get certificates and badges for loudest kiai, cleanest gi, and you get them for wiping and flushing.

if you wear a superfriends badge next to your countries flag badge beneath the sewing badge and next to the campfire starter badge.

nascar gi.

If you practice chinese, japanese, indo, indian, vietnamese, burmese, laotian, campuchian, brazillian, irish do.


mullets are the predominant hairstyle of all the seniors and the instructor.


12 year old "masters"

[The Xia]

The sensei's gi is tie-dye and has a peace symbol patch.

[Citong Shifu]

If ou own 5 school, but never trained in the martial arts a day in your life.

[The Xia]

The head instructor is named "Nutsy the Clown".

[The Xia]

Kind of long but true and I will try and fit it into the Jeffworthy case

You know you are in a Mcdojo when you visit a local school (just cause it's new and close to your house) meet the head instructor tell him you practice a bit and have some students and the next thing you know he is offering you a contract to be an instructor at his school go on his Black Belt course and bring all your students to his school!!!

true story!!! Mcdojo

:eek:
LOL. Yeah, there is alot of Bullshido around today. I remember reading an article where the guy said something along the lines of "If you believe whats advertised, the United States has more 'ninja masters' then Japan." :D

[Royal Dragon]

Personally, I could care less about McDojo's. Let them make money. 99% of the people who populate those schools would never stick to a real traditional program anyway, so why care? I sy, let the children play, and we can do our own thing, in our own circles.

You know you are in a Mc Dojo when you graduate your "3 week *intoductionary privaite lessons" and are awarded a "White Rope" in a short, but embarasing cerimony infront of all the other students.

No Lie, I was checking out a Karate school in the Chicago's west suburbs to try and get a handle on how my competition markets themselves, and this is what happened!!

I still have the "White Rope", I keep it as a soviner of the experiance.

*Introductionary intentionally misspelled (not that I can spell anyway but....)

[The Xia]

:)
This has inspired me to create a new thread where we can all post our thoughts and discuss the matter of mcdojos, and the general state of martial arts today.
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42483


back to the joking.

You might be a mcdojo if the instructor has a certificate of mastery signed by a "Mr. Miyagi". :D

[David Jamieson]

It is such a shame.... You have the a holes who are out for money, the posers that try and mystify Kung Fu, the cults, the day care kidie camps, etc...

We (as a CMA comunity) really need to establish a requirement that qualifies a person to open a school.

It's called legitimate competition. It's there, but shady people wouldn't think of it and the factor of "face game" BS is always a constant in trad martial arts.

saving face is a really stupid component in this case cause it get's abused to the nth degree.

anyway, just wanted to comment seeing as the thread i going that way...

[Dingo983]

You are at a McDojo when.....Your "master" wears leg warmers and a Hulkamaniac headband.:eek:

[Royal Dragon]

If your school teaches the original "Tai Chi" from 960 AD.....ahh er... never mind ;)

[monkeyfoot]

can you guys please explain to me how you would define a 'cult'. I dont really get that?

craig

[street_fighter]

right here man... http://www.furyu.com/archives/issue8/zanshin8.html

[David Jamieson]

If your school teaches the original "Tai Chi" from 960 AD.....ahh er... never mind ;)


anyone making that claim is most certainly entirely full of shyte.

[The Xia]

If warmups include smoking from a hookah.

[Banjos_dad]

you might be a mcdojo if you tell your students this (http://www.tibetantaichi.com/History.htm), and your grandmaster/sole inheritor of the art is this guy (http://www.tibetantaichi.com/LiuSeong.htm).
caveat tai-chi emptor...

[Royal Dragon]

That was so rediculous I couldn't even read it. I was continually waiting to find that he charges $160,000 for lessons......:rolleyes:

[Banjos_dad]

i live within walking distance of that place and always wondered about cross training in tai chi....until i googled up their website..What more do they need to say? They should just have a splash page on their website with the warning, "Unless you are completely uninitiated in the martial arts, or are unable to find your own @ss with both hands and a flashlight, LEAVE THIS SITE NOW!!"

[BlueTravesty]

Alrighty, a fun little game. Take Jeff Foxworthy's "You might be a redneck if" and replace redneck with mcdojo. I'll start.

You might be a mcdojo if the Sifu refers to "The Empire Strikes Back" as a Qigong instuctional video and your lineage traces back to a "Master Yoda".

You might be a mcdojo if you've been married three times and still have the same in-laws? :D

[hung-le]

Here’s some Mcdojo names that I'm always fond of....




(the basic run of the mill strip mail type using crap like ……..

TNT Karate......
Super Kicks martial arts studio...
Billy Bob Thornton’s Tykwando academy...
Lee Kim's Karate...
Rex Kwan do...lol......always loved that!....



Some Chinese types

Qi rejunination center for the Taoist studies
Peaceful Dragon martial arts
Spiritual Taichichuan and Qigong Center

Anything that head line in big bold letters " Real Kung fu and Taichichuan instruction"



The macho types


Anything with the word "combat" in it ….

For example Combat taichi…Combat Karate….etc..etc….

Or "Street lethal"

[Crushing Fist]

... you use the "Star Wars Kid" video as a "Training Aid".

[David Jamieson]

you might be a mcdojo if you tell your students this (http://www.tibetantaichi.com/History.htm), and your grandmaster/sole inheritor of the art is this guy (http://www.tibetantaichi.com/LiuSeong.htm).
caveat tai-chi emptor...


omfg!!!!

Is that guy an outpatient at a psychiatric centre or something?

[Ou Ji]

you might be a mcdojo if you tell your students this (http://www.tibetantaichi.com/History.htm), and your grandmaster/sole inheritor of the art is this guy (http://www.tibetantaichi.com/LiuSeong.htm).
caveat tai-chi emptor...

I looked over the site. It reminded me of my early days at the Shao Lin Temple. [sniff sniff]

The training was hard but as I look back it's like it was a dream.

Oh wait, that's right it WAS a dream. Never mind.

You might be a McDojo if

your main concern for the next class is whether you have enough snacks for the kids, er, I mean students.

your Sensei wants to have a talk with you about your repoort card.

the front 1/3 or the school is separated by glass with 2 rows of chairs for watching class.

How about

Path To Enlightenment Martial Arts Center
Bulldogs Karate
Victory Martial Arts

Alternately
You know it's a MMA schoool if ...

... the brochure has the words "alive" and "pressure test" in bold more times than you care to count
... the training floor is a mat and the walls are padded (never been to one, just guessing)

[Banjos_dad]

no guys, that place is an actual brick and mortar 'tibetan tai chi' school which has existed for some time, i first noticed it at least two years ago, probably more... So if it's not being run at a constant loss, someone is coughing up some bucks for instruction there to keep it open. Unless they chi-blast the bill collectors into amnesia every time they call up on the phone or turn up at the studio.
DJ--as far as the mental state of the faculty there, I am afraid you'll have to draw your own conclusions: I saw all that I needed to know on their website. I am a bit skeptical about the history provided on the origin of the 'soringi temple.'

It's kind of sad because for all i know, their tai chi could be the most beautiful, authentic, powerful and correct tai chi on the planet but the crap on their website absolutely exterminates every last possible shred of credibility they could have mustered.

On the bright side, providing precious moments of entertainment for the rest of us.

[neilhytholt]

It's a little weird you're singling out Reeders school when you studied with a guy who evidently did most of his studies long distance.

Yes a lot of that stuff sounds implausible but if you search back through the major Silat lineages in this country you will find some common threads there. There's a lot of politics and B.S., but that's the nature of the thing. I guess you don't know all the politics and controversy surrounding that.

I would at least go check out that school. It's probably nothing but at least to see what's left of that lineage would be interesting, wouldn't it?

[David Jamieson]

truly amazing.

just for the heck of it, Im going to pick apart that history with rudimentary understanding.

1. Bodhidarma = Indian word, Daruma = Japanese word

2. Bodhidarma was later called Daruma by the japanese who took up the zen as it came to them in transmission.

3. The Bodhidharma take is set in the early 6th century, not 6 centuries ago.

4. a man named shaolin? who has a city named after him? that exists now?

5. soringi temple?

who the heck calls asia "the orient" anymore? lol. ok, maybe some old people do, but yeesh.

When Willem was twelve years old, his great-uncle commenced sending him to China for 100 days every year. There, Willem underwent rigorous, intensive training in the temple for twelve consecutive years. After twelve years of study, he was certified by the 13th Dalai Lama.
-this is a complete and utter falsehood.

ok, this looks like nothing more than a couple of very poorly educated and even less informed hippy chicks propogating some sort of lesbian commando training perhaps?

This is incredibly funny if they are one iota serious about any of this.

~Gene, you really need to dedicate an issue to this kind of thing. Call it the oddities issue cllectors edition or something and have special articles on how the deadly technique of tongue in cheek can prevail over fist of the fraudster! :p

[Banjos_dad]

by the way if you were to google grandmaster Willem Reeders, you would discover that he is also claimed to be a big cheese in kuntao/silat circles, and an indonesian war hero against the Japanese, beyond being the self-admitted living inspiration for young Kwai Chang Caine of the 70's smash hit TV series "Kung Fu." There is even a reference to him "Willem Reeders/ Siu Leong" in the venerable "Is Shaolin-Do For Real?" thread right here (http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showpost.php?p=581963&postcount=531) on KFTC mag forums, oddly enough as contained in a letter written to Judge Pen (whose incidental connection with this adds the one minor shred of credibility to be found in the subject so far). Unfortunately, Master Reeders has passed away, leaving behind a mystery, wrapped in an enigma (apologies to Oliver Stone).

okay. I am sure there will be some backlash from that sooner or later. WHat I am wondering is if the guy was so prominent in the indonesian arts, why is that kept compartmentalized (as we used to say in the defense industry) and this nutty folkloric "i inspired kung fu! (blind master Po character) was my real life uncle!" biography featured instead? But when you consider the tie-in with Indonesian arts and the perhaps apocryphal SOuthern Shaolin temple (each faction claims it was located where their art originated....but so far no-one locates it 'outside Peking,' not even by definition as "anywhere other than Peking(/Beijing)"

Anyway, why leave your home to receive instruction at a McDojo, when "Lieutenant 'X' (http://www.topsecrettraining.com/combat.html?gclid=CJu18KDRvIYCFRNuDgod6F-mNw) can come to you with t34 d34d7y no-bullsh1t skillz in the privacy of your own home by means of the miracle that is distance learning? Now any home apartment dorm room or suitably equipped vehicle can become a McDojo...Man! They should make this guy at least a Colonel or higher so that he could become a base commander, turning out deadly hordes of fighting men to protect our nation's interests at home and abroad *cough*iraq

[neilhytholt]

You know, Reeders lived for a long time in NM and taught. Did you know he moved to New Mexico in the late '60s? If his story is real or not, does it really matter that much?

And there is a ton of controversy, politics and bad feelings about all that stuff.

Anyway, whatever.

[Banjos_dad]

It's a little weird you're singling out Reeders school when you studied with a guy who evidently did most of his studies long distance.


okay, setting aside the fact that you're a troll who claims no sifu is adequate to teach you at your level in the whole Seattle area, and recently become the champion of MacDojos....Wtf are you talking about? My Sifu Mr Lin was born and raised in Taiwan up through his late twenties when he emigrated here.. a life-long martial artist. A student of Taiwan's own Yim Bai Hsia, who was himself a student of a shaolin monk :rolleyes:
If you had any credibility at all left, with this kind of ignorant and unfounded statement you would be eroding it, but there's nothing left to erode.

oh, I think you could only be referencing a seminar I mentioned having taken with Sifu Jake Burroughs... That was cross training. My core is shaolin kung fu as trained at Lin's Martial Arts Academy here in Albuquerque where I have been a student in good standing for years. Plus several years of Shorin Ryu from a yon-dan of Matsumura, and the personal insights I gained subduing numerous violent @ssholes at my work as a bartender concurrent with my training.
it's a wonder I can find someone suitable to learn from :rolleyes: lol
Way to go Sherlock... i hope your 'fu is better than your ability on the forum because if not I imagine you are one permanently lumped-up @sshat.

[Banjos_dad]

yeah... 'whatever.' see my sig tag.

[neilhytholt]

yeah... 'whatever.' see my sig tag.

Okey-dokey. And put down Reeders some more. LOL

[David Jamieson]

Being a fraud or not says nothing about how popular you are.
That's the whole point of being a fraud, to gain popularity and to gain other material things based on the gullibilty of others.

The people who are most uncomfortable with being called frauds are the actual frauds. lol

If someone is genuine, then they'll act it in the face of detraction. There's nothing wrong with telling someone to f off. It is perfectly acceptable, except that frauds don't do this, they tend to lead you on a little path that will go nowhere and hopefully take enough turns that you'll get lost in the double speak and nonsense to bother with the relevant poiint to begin with which is, they are fraudulent.

Frauds can survive a long time and even go through an entire lifetime and subsequently pass their lie along to others until way down the line truth smacks down one of them and they are forced to reassess.

correction may or may not occur. years will add to the treacherous behaviour of a fraud. they refine their lies and begin to believe them as truths themselves.

Often, the solution is the short/sharp/shock. Many never receive this most helpful life tool. :p

[neilhytholt]

The bottom line is this. If you can't tell the difference between real martial arts and fake martial arts, then you might as well just study fake.

Because what's the difference?

What are YOU getting out of the martial arts? What do you WANT to get out of the martial arts?

If a school is giving the person what they want, who is anybody really to argue?

I still can't get over the fact that Reeders was getting called a McDojo ...

[David Jamieson]

The bottom line is this. If you can't tell the difference between real martial arts and fake martial arts, then you might as well just study fake.

Because what's the difference?

What are YOU getting out of the martial arts? What do you WANT to get out of the martial arts?

If a school is giving the person what they want, who is anybody really to argue?

I still can't get over the fact that Reeders was getting called a McDojo ...

I dunno man. It is unfair to expect people to tell the difference when they have nothing to base any observation on experientially.

for instance a person with no training whatsoever wouldn't know what is and what is not corrct.

a person with a little training only has perspective in regards to that which he has been taught and can for the most part only speak to that experience.

a person with training over a longer period of time that has experienced results and has visited more than one type of training will likely have the most open perspective about it.

a person with a lot of training in at least one art and a taste of several others, direct experience with what works and what doesn't is the one who will be able to more easily detect the BS because the errors will be glaringly evident to them.

as for historical stuff, well some stuff is easily disprovable, such as everything on that site that has been noted in thsi thread. It contradicts everything that is not only accepted mythologically but the factual as well. To claim that Reeders is certified by a dead Dalai Lama is just a total crock of sh1t and it shines the light of suspicion on him for letting that be out there about him or by making that remark himself.

teh good thing about the internet is that the bullsh1t artists are getting to be fewer and fewer due to the rapid communication lines available.

faling like flies from the burn of their own lies. good riddance I say. they ahve done enough damage as is.

[neilhytholt]

as for historical stuff, well some stuff is easily disprovable, such as everything on that site that has been noted in thsi thread. It contradicts everything that is not only accepted mythologically but the factual as well. To claim that Reeders is certified by a dead Dalai Lama is just a total crock of sh1t and it shines the light of suspicion on him for letting that be out there about him or by making that remark himself.


I have done a LOT of research on Reeders, de Thouars, Willie Wetzel, and all those people.

And it's mired a lot in politics.

But have you gone through and broken down their forms? Have you looked at their techniques in the basis of silat and different CMA systems?

Having done this I don't think that I can discount the possibility that somebody in the lineage studied CMA. In fact, I think it's a very obvious fact that somebody in their lineage studied CMA and quite intensively because much of what these people do isn't the same as some other silat.

But, yes, what's on that site doesn't quite add up. The 13th Dalai Lama died in 1933. Reeders supposedly started at age 12, in the early 30s, so the Dalai Lama would have been dead by the time he was 24 if he finished his 12 years of study.

Here's a slightly different history.

http://members.cox.net/eharris2/cimac/history.html

Anyway, I don't know what those particular women teach there, but you shouldn't assume they're a McDojo.

[Oso]

Here’s some Mcdojo names that I'm always fond of....

Peaceful Dragon martial arts




agreed on all those but 'peaceful dragon'

there is a school in Charlotte NC that goes by 'Hall of the Peaceful Dragon' and the teacher is good and the students he has that choose to fight, can fight.

the ones that choose to do forms, can do forms very well.

IMHO, he does a good job of giving students what they want and developing them in the direction they wish to go.

props, to Sifu S'barge.


FTR, it's the only school I've ever seen that has 'peaceful dragon' in thier name.

[monkeyfoot]

Greetings all

The school where I train Qixing at has been put on hold as my sifu has to work nights. I dont have the means or time to travel to any of the further away lessons that he runs (I travelled 2 hours to get to the one that just stopped) so I need to find a substitute venue until it starts it back up again.

I have more than enough qixing material to practice so I am basically thinking of finding a temporary venue where I can use their equiptment/space to train.

I came across a place in london that has a couple of halls, a gym and bags/pad/matts. They also teach a variety of M/As from BJJ and Muay Thai to 'Wushu Kwan'. The MA gym is quite inexpensive and classes are included within the monthly payment. I figured seen as this is the case, I might as well take part if only for the sparring practice.

Anyways back to topic. They teach 'Wushu Kwan'. I googled it and from what ive seen (GI's, belts etc) it looks a bit sketchy???
Does anyone have any info on this please? Is it just contemporary wushu or is it some weird MCDOJO style. Also, any info on C.K Chang?

I would just like to know what you guys think in terms of it being a temporary place to train mantis with the occassional class for sparring purposes?

Regards

Craig

[monkeyfoot]

bump

common help a brother out :D

[Lucas]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_Shu_Kwan

is this their site:

http://www.union.ic.ac.uk/acc/kungfu/grading.php

looks kinda "iffy" if this is their site. but i dont see a bjj reference so maybe just the wushukwan name.

[Lucas]

check out the places bjj teacher. should be easy to research him with the structure bjj community has.

Wushukwan to me sounds like it could non comtemp.

sounds like internal/external cma techniques/theory/concept/methods fused with modern sport science.

Could be worth checking out.

A place that offers CMA training and also has a good BJJ coach might be worth further inspection.

[Lucas]

here is a tree of the wushukwan's administration, beginning with C. K. CHang.

http://www.wushukwan.com/whos_who.html

[lkfmdc]

Wushu Kwan seems to be a UK thing, I've only seen it in the US once, in the 1980's, it looked like Taekwondo with some CMA thrown in to make it "cool"... honestly, it looked like the epitomy of McDojo/Bullshido

[Lucas]

Wushu Kwan seems to be a UK thing, I've only seen it in the US once, in the 1980's, it looked like Taekwondo with some CMA thrown in to make it "cool"... honestly, it looked like the epitomy of McDojo/Bullshido

it has this kind of shaolin do feel to it

[lkfmdc]

I'd like to see more infor on Chang and see if he is actually Korean

[monkeyfoot]

Thanks for the info Lucas. The place holds a collection of different MA. You're right about the BJJ community, I will try to get the teachers name.


Wushu Kwan seems to be a UK thing, I've only seen it in the US once, in the 1980's, it looked like Taekwondo with some CMA thrown in to make it "cool"... honestly, it looked like the epitomy of McDojo/Bullshido

Yea I was thinking the exact same thing. Every image I have seen has been of them flying about or breaking bricks. That doubled with the GIs/belt system pretty much leads me to agree with you. Like I mentioned earlier....Its really the training space that I am after and the gym.

If my Qixing lessons dont start back up soon then Ill be looking for a decent class.....just a shame that there is no Mantis in London. The NamYang guys are pretty cool from what I have seen, maybe ill give them a look.

Any other lurkers know anything about C K Chang?

craig

[AdrianUK]

Wu Shu Kwan

I have been to some of their classes before, its a good workout, very karate like and they think there chinese for some reason. They fight more like kickboxers than anything but they do train hard, not sure if this is any help but they sure don't feel like any kung fu I have ever done

[Shaolin Shi]

Wushu Kwan?

Wouldn't that be like training in the sport of Football Field or Basketball Gym?


Personally I'd go for the sport of Baseball Diamond. They have all the sneaky techniques like "Steal the Base" and "Bunt".

[Mano Mano]

I find it interesting that that Wikipedia states

Practitioners of Wu Shu Kwan hold two Guinness World Records: for the 'highest jumping kick' and 'breaking the most wooden boards in 2 minutes'. The Wu Shu Kwan people I met at competitions in the in the 80’s told me the style that they practiced was a mix of wing chun & hung gar, as both styles are not exactly famous for there kicks, I do find it strange.

[B-Rad]

Wouldn't that be like training in the sport of Football Field or Basketball Gym?
You're assuming they're trying to say "Kwoon" or "Guan". Could be a mispronunciation of "Quan"... or a Korean word (I don't know Korean though :P). Martial art fist... I guess, lol.

[your next]

Well from the few lessons I had last year its more kickboxing with breaking and kata, no wing chun at all,not sure where you got that influence from ???

[Shaolin Shi]

You're assuming they're trying to say "Kwoon" or "Guan". Could be a mispronunciation of "Quan"... or a Korean word (I don't know Korean though :P). Martial art fist... I guess, lol.


I'm not assuming anything.

Go to http://www.wushukwan.com

The characters to the left on the page header spell out "martial method hall".

You can't make this stuff up.

[B-Rad]

lol, that's hilarious :D

[Lama Pai Sifu]

I'm not assuming anything.

Go to http://www.wushukwan.com

The characters to the left on the page header spell out "martial method hall".

You can't make this stuff up.

I love the 'posed' breaking pic on the home page...

Hmmm, the 'bricks' are flying all over...and wait...where is all the debris/dust from this powerful break?? LOL

[Shaolindynasty]

It's obvious from the pitures they practice Tae Kwon Do. Also saying we do "chinese boxing" is like saying we eat food

[monkeyfoot]

HAHA LMAO!

Well guys that is pretty much exactly what I wanted to hear :D

....the search continues

craig

[Minghequan]

Okay ... I know I'm going to regret this but it is an interesting area of discussion so lets get to it!:p

What defines a "McDojo" or "McKwoon" (whatever)?

[YouKnowWho]

I assume the "McDojo" or "McKwoon" is like local community college, you can obtain general knowledge from it, but you can't obtain lifetime career knowledge from it.

[Minghequan]

Wow that's a really interesting viewpoint!!! I would have thought most would say it was selling the art, grades, watered down stuff, something "made-up" or perhaps even fraudulent but yours is an interpretation I have never heard before! Thanks for that viewpoint! Much to consider ........

[mantis7]

A Mc dojo or Mc kwoon is a complete hobby school where the quality of the school is subpar. They usually have a high turn out rate of black belt within a short amount of time. For example, producing a black belt within a 2-3 year time frame. The students show relatively low level skill due to the water down curriculum.

They concentrate on up sales to students. For example, join our black belt program and you get one extra class a week and get ranked up quicker. They use gimmicks to get students to enroll.

They focus on making money, which isn't bad, but do so at the expense of quality.

They usually teach forms with little to no actual combat training.

They profess their style to be to deadly for competition.

I am missing a few things but for the life of me I can't remember them. You should know when you see it!

[Vicius]

Some more...

- They train forms only for beauty and showing.
- They live on the mysticism and some assure that kung fu is only for healt and as an art, which is probably true for them due to they don't teach to fight.
- Some have a gymnastic part, and teach a series of very impressive and useless soil gymnastic skills for a punch.
- When you see their weapons forms you think in a baton twirler.
- They have periodical exams for upgrade level, and they prepare you for the exam.
- Their master knows 300+ forms(just a saying for too many).

Making this lists are fun, but we realize that some very respectable training centers have some of them, but a McDojo have the most of them.

[SPJ]

Mc

like a fast food chain, franchised

learn something fast

limited by menu

easy to prepare

ready to eat or use

Mostly baby sitting

on and on.

[PalmStriker]

It means you get fries with your forms. More bang for your buck. https://www.google.com/search?q=French+fries&client=firefox-a&hs=rAD&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=JnwjUteTI-e1sAS83IGwBA&ved=0CDIQsAQ4Cg&biw=1440&bih=807

[mickey]

Greetings,

A McDojo or McKwoon is a place where the "master" can walk into the middle of his school demonstration, drop is pants, squat and take a mean, unglorified, noisy, sh!t and the students and audience will tear up, stand, howl, and clap while swearing that what they saw was absolutely amazing and that they were so blessed and so honored to be a part of it.

mickey

[Dragonzbane76]

McDojo or McKwoon is a place where the "master" can walk into the middle of his school demonstration, drop is pants, squat and take a mean, unglorified, noisy, sh!t and the students and audience will tear up, stand, howl, and clap while swearing that what they saw was absolutely amazing and that they were so blessed and so honored to be a part of it.

pretty much

[ngokfei]

Mc Dojo/Kwoon = "Mc/Mac (son of/relative) Dojo/kwoon (training hall)

well thats the literal translation. :D

Generally this has been taken over to denote a negative connotation about a professional martial arts school.

Sure there are many facets I agree with but then again alot of the so called "What makes a Traditional/Classical or Practical/Combat/Realistic Dojo/Kwoon" I don't see either.

I always read on these forums how this teacher is this and that teacher is that but the individual writing it hasn't even achieved what they claim.

If you want a good teacher look at the students. Do they have the attributes your looking for. Too often individuals focus too much attention on the teacher/instructor.

Some of my best boxing coaches had mediocre skills and competiton wins. But they produced some amazing talent.

So Look at the students. You also have to remember that just because a teacher is skilled doesn't mean the students will be. The could just be stupid, lazy or all the above but most the individual is a terrible teacher.

Most of all you have those individuals who want to be taught the world but don't have the discipline or sacrifice to train to acquire the skill plus they tend to be realllly cheap when it comes to compen$ation value for what they want.

So all those that commented what have you produced?:p

[Minghequan]

Some very interesting views being exprerssed here and not those I would have expected.

For the most part I'm reading that most of you view McDojo's as being community based instructional schools of a lower standard and or commercial enterprises???

What I was expecting to see was people saying fake schools, fraudulent schools selling ranks or promoting others whilst their own credibility is in question which is something I've not witnessed in this discussion.

That's interesting in itself.

A quick Google leads me to:

1/. Clubs that sell lessons/ranks.

2/. Schools whose only existence is to make profit off teaching mediocre skills.

3/. Run by people with "false" ranks!


It's number 3 that interests me on a historical perspective. I'm going to throw something our there for hopefully interesting discussion ......

If we could go far enough back in Martial Arts history within all styles we would come to someone who:

1/. Made it all up.

2/. Having made it all up taught it to others.

3/. Having made it all up and taught it to others then "awarded" a rank to those people or claimed a "rank / position of authority" for themselves.

Looking at it from such a perspective and it is a perspective that is historically and factually true .... then all arts came from such a McDojo etc???

This then leads us to the supposition that he founders of the arts we may follow were to a greater or lesser extent a "Fraud" (in the modern definition) or operated a form of a "McDojo".

Your thoughts?

[GETHIN]

Quote- This then leads us to the supposition that he founders of the arts we may follow were to a greater or lesser extent a "Fraud" (in the modern definition) or operated a form of a "McDojo".

Fraud, fake, call it what you will, but these words imply deception, lies, shoddy goods and dishonesty.
Please justify you supposition that the founders of martial arts were such.

[Shaolindynasty]

There is a difference between "made up" and innovations made through experience

[Kellen Bassette]

If we could go far enough back in Martial Arts history within all styles we would come to someone who:

1/. Made it all up.

2/. Having made it all up taught it to others.

3/. Having made it all up and taught it to others then "awarded" a rank to those people or claimed a "rank / position of authority" for themselves.

Looking at it from such a perspective and it is a perspective that is historically and factually true .... then all arts came from such a McDojo etc???

This then leads us to the supposition that he founders of the arts we may follow were to a greater or lesser extent a "Fraud" (in the modern definition) or operated a form of a "McDojo".

Your thoughts?

The problem isn't that someone "made it up" we know it all began somewhere. But some arts were built on the experience of the originator, evolved and adapted over the years and grew through the insights of later practitioners.

The teacher at the "McDojo" you speak of claims to have: originated the style himself, (without the benefit of war/real life experience,)....

or, learned from many masters and used his superior background to form his curriculum, (when in fact his training with said master(s) was very limited, or even non existent,)....

or, based his "system" on techniques/concepts that he made up, or stole, without ever going through the war/real life/sport process to qualify them....

The fraud part isn't making up rank, (that is just silly and egotistical.) The fraud part is pretending the rank has some sort of greater value than whatever that school places on it, as if it represents some ancient lineage, storied master or famed warrior.

The fraud part isn't creating a system, it's selling yourself as the pinnacle of thousands of years of combined knowledge, when you've done nothing more than steal, rearrange and misrepresent ideas you do not even properly understand, then portray yourself as an authority of these ideas.

[David Jamieson]

- non descript style or lineage
- hodge podge of styles
- fixation on ranking
- fixation on uniform
- price list for belt tests
- children with black belts
- unfit and out of shape instructors
- strong focus on fees, dues and promoted items

[ngokfei]

- non descript style or lineage
- hodge podge of styles
- fixation on ranking
- fixation on uniform
- price list for belt tests
- children with black belts
- unfit and out of shape instructors
- strong focus on fees, dues and promoted items

LOL - sounds like every college and university out there.

but you didn't mention anything about skill of the student. Is that individuals ranking/certification/diploma worth anything in the real world.

and just because a style is old doesn't make their teachings applicable today or even if they principles/theories are sound it doesn't guarantee the quality or skill of an individual training this particular style.

People are overly focused on "style" and not the "Individual teacher". Research shows that schools (when they were public) never advertised a paticular "style" you trained because of the "individual teaching" their achievements etc. is what brought them to our attention.

Now its just alot of talk - especially with so many venues for an individual to show their skills.

[ngokfei]

also its kind of a non-productive question as most of the individuals commenting here aren't professional martial arts teachers. :)

They don't run schools or even teach at all. :confused:

Hey I think I'm filling in for David Ross during his vacation.:D

[SavvySavage]

A Mc dojo or Mc kwoon is a complete hobby school where the quality of the school is subpar. They usually have a high turn out rate of black belt within a short amount of time. For example, producing a black belt within a 2-3 year time frame. The students show relatively low level skill due to the water down curriculum.

They concentrate on up sales to students. For example, join our black belt program and you get one extra class a week and get ranked up quicker. They use gimmicks to get students to enroll.

They focus on making money, which isn't bad, but do so at the expense of quality.

They usually teach forms with little to no actual combat training.

They profess their style to be to deadly for competition.

I am missing a few things but for the life of me I can't remember them. You should know when you see it!

I would argue that most martial artists are hobbyists. Most aren't competing in competitions or engaging in life and death street fights so by definition they are hobbyists. They are there to have fun, do something new, make friends, and lose weight. And there's nothing wrong with that. The way you make it sound is that the "real" schools are filled with tough guys who fight all the time and aren't just doing forms and drills like every other school.

[David Jamieson]

LOL - sounds like every college and university out there.
How so? College and University has definite paths and curriculum with progression in the study built in.


but you didn't mention anything about skill of the student. Is that individuals ranking/certification/diploma worth anything in the real world.
Skill of the student... How is that determined without crossing hands? Either friendly or otherwise?


and just because a style is old doesn't make their teachings applicable today or even if they principles/theories are sound it doesn't guarantee the quality or skill of an individual training this particular style. There is never a guarantee. I am referring to what are markers of a school that I would consider a mckwoon. Or fast food type martial arts school.


People are overly focused on "style" and not the "Individual teacher". Research shows that schools (when they were public) never advertised a paticular "style" you trained because of the "individual teaching" their achievements etc. is what brought them to our attention. Teachers hail from schools. Which great teachers f martial arts hail from the void? I can't think of any and any worth their weight are from systems that are established.


Now its just alot of talk - especially with so many venues for an individual to show their skills.
So, How do you identify a dodgy or sketchy martial arts club? I stated my criteria, what's yours?

[David Jamieson]

also its kind of a non-productive question as most of the individuals commenting here aren't professional martial arts teachers. :)

They don't run schools or even teach at all. :confused:

Hey I think I'm filling in for David Ross during his vacation.:D

How so. I think most that have answered do teach either professionally or as their passion or at least their concern.

When you are training fighters and sending them to venues you can make claims of fitting into Ross's shoes. :p

[ngokfei]

uh I was going to comment more but just saw video clips of DJ doing stick and knives, well I won't waste my time.:eek:

As for taking david's place in the aspect of naysayer, atagonist. Actually he's a good coach and does produce some good fighters but there's the other side of him eh.

[David Jamieson]

uh I was going to comment more but just saw video clips of DJ doing stick and knives, well I won't waste my time.:eek:

As for taking david's place in the aspect of naysayer, atagonist. Actually he's a good coach and does produce some good fighters but there's the other side of him eh.

Yeah yeah, why not show us yours eric? You got anything?
Or you looking to just get angry at someone today?
You and Ross have ZERO in common. For one thing, Dave can spell antagonist.

[Almost A Ghost]

This is probably the most direct list of what makes a McDojo and McDojo:



- non descript style or lineage
- hodge podge of styles
- fixation on ranking
- fixation on uniform
- price list for belt tests
- children with black belts
- unfit and out of shape instructors
- strong focus on fees, dues and promoted items

I'd like to add the following though:
- Patches, glorious patches!
- Whatever style seems to be popular at the time influencing what is being taught at the school i.e. "We have Jiu Jitsu techniques too" OR "We have anti-Jiu Jitsu techniques."
- If you are talking to the instructor and you say "I'm interested in" and then name a style that isn't taught at the school and their response is "We have the same techniques" or "It has been integrated in our system"
- Seminars and special classes for stuff you should be learning in a regular class, such as form application
- "Cramming" for belt test because it's been so long since your last promotion but you don't have all the material yet for your next one that a few weeks away
- Junior Instructors and Assistants leave at a high rate

[Kevin73]

I think that many people define it in their own way. I have noticed a change in the meaning of the word through the past few years as well.

Think of what McDonalds is. It's a fast food restaurant that sells burgers very quick for very cheap. They aren't "fake burgers", they just aren't the best burger you can buy. You know exactly what you are going to get in any McD's you go to.

Think of when the phrase was first used back in the 70's (yes, it has been around that long). It was when schools started to franchise themselves and make it more customer friendly. You could go into any of their schools and you would get the same product/training and know what to expect.

Unfortunately, in the process to make it more "customer" friendly. It meant REALLY lowering the amount of contact. So now anyone can walk into a school and get a blackbelt.

Later, we saw the "up marketing" aspect and having "blackbelt clubs" that you pay $ XXXXX and are guaranteed a blackbelt in X amount of years. They also added tons of different colored belt ranks to increase the testing fees and decrease the time it takes between belts, so you can literally be testing every month for the next stripe/color.

It is this last definition that I see people usually referring to when they mean McDojo.

Now, with the advent and popularity of MMA, I see the term McDojo being used to mean ANY school that doesn't teach fighting as it's main focus. So no matter how traditional an aikido school is, it is a McDojo because they teach it for harmony/cooperation and not for pure fighting.

So it has again changed meanings.

[David Jamieson]

I think that many people define it in their own way. I have noticed a change in the meaning of the word through the past few years as well.

Think of what McDonalds is. It's a fast food restaurant that sells burgers very quick for very cheap. They aren't "fake burgers", they just aren't the best burger you can buy. You know exactly what you are going to get in any McD's you go to.

Think of when the phrase was first used back in the 70's (yes, it has been around that long). It was when schools started to franchise themselves and make it more customer friendly. You could go into any of their schools and you would get the same product/training and know what to expect.

Unfortunately, in the process to make it more "customer" friendly. It meant REALLY lowering the amount of contact. So now anyone can walk into a school and get a blackbelt.

Later, we saw the "up marketing" aspect and having "blackbelt clubs" that you pay $ XXXXX and are guaranteed a blackbelt in X amount of years. They also added tons of different colored belt ranks to increase the testing fees and decrease the time it takes between belts, so you can literally be testing every month for the next stripe/color.

It is this last definition that I see people usually referring to when they mean McDojo.

Now, with the advent and popularity of MMA, I see the term McDojo being used to mean ANY school that doesn't teach fighting as it's main focus. So no matter how traditional an aikido school is, it is a McDojo because they teach it for harmony/cooperation and not for pure fighting.

So it has again changed meanings.

Lowering the bar in a martial arts school is bad for the skills and bad for the school.

Even the best army can only march as fast as it's slowest member. Too much fluff and making room for more fluff winds up just a big ol' pile of fluff. Practically useless.

[ngokfei]

Customers get what they pay for. If they don't like it then can leave. Most individuals who do MA is the hobbiest and their goal is a Black Belt.

One of my teachers used to resent this but over the years he has changed his mind.

He's now gets mature students who experienced the "Strip Mall School" and wanted more. he benefits because he now gets students who have some sort of basics (not necessarily good) but something to work with.

But the real reason for the negative views on these schools is just plain jealousy. Teachers resent the fact that their competitors schools are full and they are just teaching a small group in the park after working a full 9-5 job. And in the end the % of quality students produced in a Professional School and a Hobbiest's club is actually almost the same.

One term that needs to be clarified is the term "professional" and "Hobbiest" when it comes to Martial Arts Instructors.

For me a professional lives and breaths what they are doing and make a living at it. Its not about selling out but about being innovative and modernization. Just like those teachers in our public schools have to constantly upgrade their teaching material and strategies, and so should Martial Arts teachers.

Also in terms of kids I know very few parents that would opt to have their child train in a park with an unregistered teacher without a business license who has no Insurance in place.

[Alex Córdoba]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mB0T7YF5o6A/TnHkqF7sNnI/AAAAAAAAAfg/lcWlF3xW0UM/s1600/mcdojo.jpg

[David Jamieson]

LMFAO! :p

...

[GeneChing]

I think it's the happy meals that define McDojos & McKwoons. You get a prepackaged meal for your kids, complete with a 'free' toy, in a colorful box.

It's either that or the clown mascots.

Or maybe it's the drive-up windows? :p