A manifesto for modern kung fu

[lkfmdc]

http://nysanda.wordpress.com/2014/05/30/a-manifesto-for-modern-kung-fu/

latest blog post.... let's see what reaction I get on this

[sanjuro_ronin]

100% agreement.
YET, I know in my heart that you are simply preaching to the converted.
It truly saddens me.

[lkfmdc]

100% agreement.
YET, I know in my heart that you are simply preaching to the converted.
It truly saddens me.

I have expectations, based upon previous experience
let's see if they play out

[Faux Newbie]

This is the problem with summing up those who fight as "just kickboxing". It creates a mindset where kicking and punching are low level stuff that skilled people won't do, and yet the forms are full of common kicks, punches, and throws. One does not grow above the basics, the basics are the foundational skills that can make opportunity for the more specialized stuff.

[MightyB]

I understand what you're saying, but I find that the older I get, the less I'm willing to take an absolute stance. For example you wrote
"However, for far too long “health” has been used as an excuse to avoid the issue of “fighting.” Chinese martial arts are not gymnastics, they are not yoga, they are not even Qi-Gong, they are “Wu Gong,” i.e. FIGHTING ARTS. To either ignore or obscure this is folly." but one could argue that that's what they are because that's what they (CMA) are in the present context.

Plus it's impossible to make sweeping accusations about the state of TCMA and about the state of practice. For instance, you are/were TCMA. To think that you're somehow different than others who have the same interests in combat efficacy as you is folly because you are/were TCMA. I'd assume there are many people who've come from TCMA that have pursued a similar path as yours as far as cross training, fitness, etc. and some of those people eventually go full circle back to TCMA bringing with them their new found experiences. Yet, to hear them talk - they only claim they're TCMA practitioners.

What I think is a good theme to expand on that you write about is the need to hard spar within CMA and the value of using the best safety equipment and how that helps develop the overall combat effectiveness of the practitioner.

[YouKnowWho]

To me, TCMA is to be able to master the following tools:

- jab, cross, hook, uppercut, ...
- front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...
- finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, ...
- single leg, double legs, hip throw, firemen's carry, ...
- full mount, side mount, arm bar, choke, ...

We just can't define TCMA simpler than this.

[MightyB]

I've been thinking about how we define things...

Maybe there should be a distinction. Forget everything we talk about and look at it in a new way. For instance, we have TCMA and CMA.

TCMA pays homage to the tradition of Chinese Martial Arts. It's the history, the traditions, the lion dances, the etiquette, the old gungs and practice methods etc. But it is what it is for better or worse and we should be content to leave it at that.

CMA is really 3 distinct areas. There's Wushu for performance, Shuai Jiao and Sanda for combat, and Tai Chi / Qigong for fitness.

There can be overlap but it's not necessary. If you are good at any one of those you call yourself a Chinese Martial Artist IMO.

[Kellen Bassette]

To me, TCMA is to be able to master the following tools:

- jab, cross, hook, uppercut, ...
- front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, ...
- finger lock, wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, ...
- single leg, double legs, hip throw, firemen's carry, ...
- full mount, side mount, arm bar, choke, ...

We just can't define TCMA simpler than this.

Yes, couldn't agree more.

Great article Dave, will share.

[MarathonTmatt]

Great article. IMO it is articles like this that articulate what CMA is all about. If I told someone I train in CMA, and they didn't know anything about it, I might refer them to an article like the one Sifu Ross just wrote.
Great points Sifu Wang... so simple, really- practice more, practice more, practice more...
Thnx!

[ShaolinDan]

MightyB has gotten so mature since I joined this sight. :D (I think we're about the same age. :p )

Lots of people study martial arts for lots of reasons. It's great that there are people out there working pure combat, but it would be a terrible shame if that's all there was.

Do we say everyone who's not doing yoga to become an enlightened guru is wasting their time? If they're enjoying it, then it's just fine.

Kung fu's original purpose was killing people, but millions of people have been enjoying it for centuries without necessarily killing anyone. I don't see anything wrong with that. :)

While the real fighters help keep TCMA combat techniques alive and vital, other people are preserving aspects of TCMA that fighters don't have time/concern for.

It's a vast tradition that takes many types of practitioners to sustain. And for those who train it, it's up to them to pick and choose what parts of the tradition to incorporate in their practice. And there's so much to choose from! :)
This is why I love TCMA.

I think what you're doing at your school is great David. But I'm glad it's not what everyone's doing.
I'd rather live in a world full of kung fu students who can't fight, then one in which kung fu was taught only for combat and all the rest was forgotten.

[ShaolinDan]

Another way to look at it:

There are lots (millions upon millions) of people in the world today who don't want to fight, but still enjoy doing kung fu. There's no reason to try to take that from them (as if anyone could). There's plenty of kung fu to go around for everyone. :)

[YouKnowWho]

Another way to look at it:

There are lots (millions upon millions) of people in the world today who don't want to fight, but still enjoy doing kung fu. There's no reason to try to take that from them (as if anyone could). There's plenty of kung fu to go around for everyone. :)

People are free to do whatever that they want to do. There is no argument on that. The only concern is this:

When TCMA is for "health", "self-cultivation", "inner peace", "performance", the word "opponent" will no longer has any meaning. Also

- timing,
- opportunity,
- angle,

will have nothing to reference to. The TCMA will easily to be changed into something that doesn't make any sense.

For example.

- If you drop your knee and use Taiji "twin peaks to the ear", it will have "health" value but won't have "combat" value unless your opponent is only 4 feet high.
- If you use Taiji "double pulling" and both of your palms are facing downward, it will have "health" value but won't have "combat" value because with both downward facing palms, you can't control your opponent's arm.
- If you punch when you "inhale" and pull your punch back when you "exhale", you will have "health" benefit but you have just violate the most basic "combat" rule and that is "exhale when you punch out".
- ...

The "combat" is the guideline for TCMA. Without it, the TCMA can be modified into un-recognizable. The more TCMA for health teachers that we have, the more danger that TCMA will be evolved into the wrong direction.

I have taught Taiji to an old age group of people. When I taught application, an old guy asked me, "Do you expect me to use Taiji to fight at my age?" I told him that I expected him to use the "application" as the guideline to check his posture, hand and feet coordination, ... Without the "combat" as the guideline, just for "health', you can punch out your fist anyway that you may prefer.

One day I saw a guy did his long fist form by punching his right arm forward and kick his right leg back at the same time. I asked him what he was doing. He said, "Punch the guy in front of me, and kick the guy's leg behind me." I then asked him, "without looking behind, how do you know where your opponent's leg is?" He could not answer my question. Can you image that one day when he becomes a TCMA teacher and teach his students, none of his students will know the purpose of "kick backward".

As a TCMA lover, I don't like to see that happen to TCMA.

[Dale Dugas]

functional form.

Been working on mine.

Thank you for all the encouragement.

Great post, Wang Shifu as always.

[ShaolinDan]

People are free to do whatever that they want to do. There is no argument on that. The only concern is this:

When TCMA is for "health", "self-cultivation", "inner peace", "performance", the word "opponent" will no longer has any meaning. Also

- timing,
- opportunity,
- angle,

will have nothing to reference to. The TCMA will easily to be changed into something that doesn't make any sense.

For example.

- If you drop your knee and use Taiji "twin peaks to the ear", it will have "health" value but won't have "combat" value unless your opponent is only 4 feet high.
- If you use Taiji "double pulling" and both of your palms are facing downward, it will have "health" value but won't have "combat" value because with both downward facing palms, you can't control your opponent's arm.
- If you punch when you "inhale" and pull your punch back when you "exhale", you will have "health" benefit but you have just violate the most basic "combat" rule and that is "exhale when you punch out".
- ...

The "combat" is the guideline for TCMA. Without it, the TCMA can be modified into un-recognizable. The more TCMA for health teachers that we have, the more danger that TCMA will be evolved into the wrong direction.

I have taught Taiji to an old age group of people. When I taught application, an old guy asked me, "Do you expect me to use Taiji to fight at my age?" I told him that I expected him to use the "application" as the guideline to check his posture, hand and feet coordination, ... Without the "combat" as the guideline, just for "health', you can punch out your fist anyway that you may prefer.

One day I saw a guy did his long fist form by punching his right arm forward and kick his right leg back at the same time. I asked him what he was doing. He said, "Punch the guy in front of me, and kick the guy's leg behind me." I then asked him, "without looking behind, how do you know where your opponent's leg is?" He could not answer my question. Can you image that one day when he becomes a TCMA teacher and teach his students, none of his students will know the purpose of "kick backward".

As a TCMA lover, I don't like to see that happen to TCMA.

In total agreement here, however:
a) practicing functional form is not prerequisite for fighting
b) fighting is not prerequisite for practicing functional form
c) practicing for health, performance, etc. does not have to negate practicing for combat
d) in the end the only way to "help" kung fu is to teach what you feel should be taught

The best thing any of us can do is put good material out there (whatever we think that means). It's a waste of time to criticize what other people enjoy practicing, and alienates the very demographic one presumably wishes to reach out to.

[lkfmdc]

If you don't want to learn to "fight" at least in some form, why do martial arts? You want to get in shape? Join a gym, get a personal trainer, etc

You want to get into shape AND learn some new culture? Do yoga or Chi-Kung....

Martial Arts are MARTIAL
WU Kung is about WU

When people say it's "about health" it is usually a code word for significantly altered if not down right made up stuff

[ShaolinDan]

If you don't want to learn to "fight" at least in some form, why do martial arts? You want to get in shape? Join a gym, get a personal trainer, etc

You want to get into shape AND learn some new culture? Do yoga or Chi-Kung....

Martial Arts are MARTIAL
WU Kung is about WU

When people say it's "about health" it is usually a code word for significantly altered if not down right made up stuff

Thank you for that. A perfect illustration of my point. :)



Instead of saying "if you just want health, don't study kung fu" we can say, "yes! Of course, kung fu will make you very healthy! And you can learn to protect yourself too. My gym is a great choice for you." :)

[lkfmdc]

Thank you for that. A perfect illustration of my point. :)

Instead of saying "if you just want health, don't study kung fu" we can say, "yes! Of course, kung fu will make you very healthy! And you can learn to protect yourself too. My gym is a great choice for you." :)

I'm real big on honesty and directness.... this morning for example I mentioned William CC Chen's program for elders to use Tai Chi to keep them from falling.. great program, no issues with it, because I assure you none of those people think they are learning to fight and aren't going to go around talking tough...

Far too many places with "martial arts" on the door are teaching anything but martial and yet deluding their students otherwise

[ShaolinDan]

Far too many places with "martial arts" on the door are teaching anything but martial and yet deluding their students otherwise

Totally. But I don't see this as a threat to real kung fu. As long as you can teach what you want, how can anything kill kung fu? It's life is in your hands, dude. :) The fakes are irrelevant to the real material.

[YouKnowWho]

c) practicing for health, performance, etc. does not have to negate practicing for combat ...

All TCMA forms can be trained in 3 different ways:

1. combat - punch out fast, pull back fast.
2. performance - punch out fast, freeze at the end of your punch.
3. health - punch out slow and pull back fast.

IMO, those 3 different training methods do contradict to each other.

[tc101]

Another way to look at it:

There are lots (millions upon millions) of people in the world today who don't want to fight, but still enjoy doing kung fu. There's no reason to try to take that from them (as if anyone could). There's plenty of kung fu to go around for everyone. :)

I agree with you. It gets confusing though when people who do not train to be fighters and never really spar think that because they train Kung fu that they can handle themselves.

[MightyB]

Instead of saying "if you just want health, don't study kung fu" we can say, "yes! Of course, kung fu will make you very healthy! And you can learn to protect yourself too. My gym is a great choice for you." :)

Exactly - and to illustrate that point, there are more non-competitive BJJers than competitive BJJers. Same can be said for just about any combat sport. I'm sure Coach Ross finds that to be true at his gym too.

[MightyB]

It gets confusing though when people who do not train to be fighters and never really spar think that because they train Kung fu that they can handle themselves.

Would it shock you to know that this same phenomena happens in every kickboxing gym in America? :eek:

[MightyB]

Dave's article is right though - there should always be sparring in kung fu and we have good equipment to make it safe so use it. I personally dislike it when too much class time is used for calisthenics and solo forms. The best thing about having a group of martial artists together in one setting is that there's a group of martial artists to practice with. That time should be used for drilling and sparring.

Just my two cents on the topic.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The issues to me are twofold:
You can do kung fu for whatever reason you want, as long as you are doing it for THAT reason and are getting OUT OF IT what you NEED for THAT reason.
ie: Doing it for Health and exercise and not fighting, don't expect to be able to fight with it and don't think you are a fighter.
Too many people do kung fu for every reason BUT fighting YET still think they can fight.
Second:
Do kung fu for whatever reason you want BUT never forget that the TRADITION of kung fu is fighting and unless you are doing for that, don't call yourself a traditionalist.

[David Jamieson]

The issue is the continued curious mixture of preventative healthful exercises, spiritual liberation work and traditional observance and history knowledge that gets package with Traditional martial arts. It seems to have gotten to the point were the martial aspect gets buried in those and hence the "It's for health" position.

Having said that, it is not a huge difficult task to focus on the martial aspects and to put the Qi Gong, Traditional observance, history, preventative medicine, etc etc into another segment instead of tying it to the martial practice. Even though I personally advocate a whole being approach to it and can appreciate how Ch'an serves a workout an how morality and ethics can temper a quick sword so to speak.

Martial purists will always be able to find what they want and those who are interested in the big tapestry should be able to find theirs as well.

[MightyB]

I think the "looks like kickboxing" criticism has merit... in that there's a proven/good, correct way to learn to kick box and if you have no real faith in the techniques, philosophies, and methods of TCMA to try to learn to use it when you spar, then why would you continue to pursue TCMA? I don't like it when I see people "spar" in TCMA and it looks like bad Tae Kwon Do. They should study good TKD IMO. I really like it though when I see people spar and it looks like good kick boxing / Sanda or TKD, but they'll throw in a couple of old school combinations or techniques.

[Orion Paximus]

Yeah, I think when we say "kickboxing" we're referring to it with a capital "K" as a proper noun. A style of fighting. Not as a descriptor of fighting itself. Anyone who grew up in the 70s and 80s watching American Kickboxing matches knows why we use it in a negative context when comparing it to Chinese Martial Arts. Not that it isn't effective, but it doesn't exhibit the attributes of the particular Kung Fu practices we were learning.

But yes the blog was pretty spot on.

[Faux Newbie]

There is really not a kick or punch in kickboxing that doesn't have a kung fu equivalent. Lack of throws and the related clinch is all the difference.

To not fight like a kickboxer is to throw out a good chunk of our kung fu. If competitors aren't throwing punches or kicks, they aren't doing kung fu, at least any style I've ever seen. Now, if they don't have a variety of different jabs and crosses, then they aren't doing their full kung fu, but that's nitpicking.

The differences are mostly in body mechanics and clinch work. You'd be hard pressed to find more than a small handful of strikes and throws that don't have variants in boxing, muay thai, judo, etc. That said, I will say the variation is often important, and not just to be stylistic.

Strikes, throws, kicks, and grabs in kungfu tend to take into account transition to any of the others than in styles that are divided up by range. A judo player will tend to want to keep trying to throw, a boxer will seek to get back to striking, a ground fighter will seek takedowns to the ground. Muay Thai is probably the closest cousin to kung fu in this sense. Kung fu fighters should take the action most suitable to the situation, but if you are expecting not to throw and not to go to the ground, then you tend to do something like kickboxing, and if you enter venues that allow only this, that is the result. If you allow no head strikes in the venue, then you will kick and throw a lot, hand strikes not so much. If you do not allow ground, you may do throws that you wouldn't if the ground were a possibility and you didn't want to go there. This is why most previous full contact venues were better viewed as narrow practices just like other resisting exercises, but with more contact. Not realistic, but working some real skills if taken in their proper context. If you hate kickboxing for its narrowness, you're stuck reviling push hands and sticky hands, being just as narrow if not narrower.

[MightyB]

To not fight like a kickboxer is to throw out a good chunk of our kung fu. If competitors aren't throwing punches or kicks, they aren't doing kung fu, at least any style I've ever seen. Now, if they don't have a variety of different jabs and crosses, then they aren't doing their full kung fu, but that's nitpicking.


The problem is when they're not trained to fight like a kickboxer and they try to imitate how a kickboxer fights. Then it's just bad. In that case I think the person's better off to go to a San Da gym and learn to kickbox in the correct way. At least then they'd have the skill base to ad the traditional techniques if they want to use them.

[YouKnowWho]

Do you feel excited when you see a punch coming toward your face. I feel very excited at that moment. I can't get that kind of excitement outside of sparring. Lately, I even willing to pay $20 for anybody who are willing to spar/wrestle with me for 15 rounds.

If you don't train TCMA for "combat", you will miss that excitement.

[Faux Newbie]

The problem is when they're not trained to fight like a kickboxer and they try to imitate how a kickboxer fights. Then it's just bad. In that case I think the person's better off to go to a San Da gym and learn to kickbox in the correct way. At least then they'd have the skill base to ad the traditional techniques if they want to use them.

I don't think it's just about training like a kickboxer. Kung fu people of many stripes like to under train their basic kicks and punches and throws in order to work on 'high level' stuff. And they don't use gloves, and used fixed foot positioning to train techs, so no timing or distance skills.

They're too busy trying to look like wing chun or baqua or whatever, and not training the almost universal stuff all kung fu styles accept as a necessary basis, which give the opportunity for the style specific stuff. No decent lead leg kicks, no wing chun, etc.

From there, I agree with you, they don't look at ring tactics that kickboxing requires, cause that's somehow not kung fu, even though it often is. How to deal with southpaw-orthodox issues, how to deal with pre-contact range. Focus on body mechanics but ignoring what the moves are for on the basic strikes. Striking as low level, instead of it being an art form on its own.

They don't spend the time doing basic unscripted footwork that makes sense. No style works without that.

[Jimbo]

In my observation and experience, in general, the CMA practitioners who end up being the most able to apply characteristic skills from their styles in pressure sparring are those who were already experienced in non-TCMA systems/methods. Those who already have fighting skills coming in, as long as they are open-minded enough to adopt new skills or viewpoints, tend to learn and progress much more rapidly in CMA than most who start CMA from scratch.

[Faux Newbie]

Must disagree with you here. When I ran a school, we had a motto, "Fight the way you train." I allowed my students to go to tournaments, and face strangers, for the distinct purpose of making their training functional. Just before their engagement, I would instruct them in the only fists and footwork patterns they were allowed to use in that engagement. They hated it. They did not look kewl, cool, or kool, and everybody laughed at them. After several years of doing that, I let them loose, to do what they wanted because I knew they would stay in system. The other competitors hated to see them walk through the door. These little bouts are not about "winning". They are about learning. Gung Fu works if you work it and that is a long and painful process. There is no glory in it. I can appreciate your shortcuts and using unscripted techniques and understand the reason you believe that way. To each his own.

I think we are talking about the same thing. I generalized to "many kung fu people", but was not suggesting all in any way.

When I say "unscripted", don't take it too far. This tied in to my statement about ”working basic footwork in a way that makes sense". So it is not just randomly assembled footwork, and results in a fair amount of knowing standard maneuvers that can be used to do a great many things.

So the teacher should have drills that relate to specific things.

Same with techniques themselves, you trained them in the toolbox that needed to be the basis.

The unscripted aspect in drills, likewise, is not the same as sparring, but unscripted in the sense that the aggressor might have one or two specific attacks they are to use, but can maneuver around, forcing the practitioner to learn to adjust timing and distance. These are not shortcuts, just the next level that fixed distance does not allow for. Teaches the student when to apply the technique they are working and when not to.

I'm sure you've seen more than enough kung fu stylists maneuvering in front of their opponents from footwork that implies a throw and serves no purpose in the way they're using it except to seem to show off in a way that a good opponent, kung fu or otherwise, could capitalize on.

[pazman]

Japanese martial arts seem to have a very balanced, yet logical, way of organizing their practice.

In both Judo and Kendo, you start your learning with practical, modern approaches that develop timing, distance, and technique, and you can practice against a resisting partner. More traditional and formal methods of training, paired kata, are introduced to supplement the training, not become the focus. If you happen to really like paired kata, there is plenty to explore, as you can join a koryu (ancient martial art) group. In fact, most koryu in Japan typically seek potential members who already have a black belt in a more modern art.

I'm not particularly tied to any one tradition, but if I were to envision a modern gongfu school, I would include a complete sanda program, a big spear sparring program (with associated basic skills), a collection of line drills (these are great for coordination), and maybe even a simple qigong routine to cap it off. This would be an initial 3-4 years program, after which the student would be well-equipped to make sense of more traditional material. He/She could then learn taolu, qigong, other weapons as they desire.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Japanese martial arts seem to have a very balanced, yet logical, way of organizing their practice.

In both Judo and Kendo, you start your learning with practical, modern approaches that develop timing, distance, and technique, and you can practice against a resisting partner. More traditional and formal methods of training, paired kata, are introduced to supplement the training, not become the focus. If you happen to really like paired kata, there is plenty to explore, as you can join a koryu (ancient martial art) group. In fact, most koryu in Japan typically seek potential members who already have a black belt in a more modern art.

I'm not particularly tied to any one tradition, but if I were to envision a modern gongfu school, I would include a complete sanda program, a big spear sparring program (with associated basic skills), a collection of line drills (these are great for coordination), and maybe even a simple qigong routine to cap it off. This would be an initial 3-4 years program, after which the student would be well-equipped to make sense of more traditional material. He/She could then learn taolu, qigong, other weapons as they desire.

Not ALL JMA are like that.
Judo is and hard contact Karate systems are.
The Koryu systems teach pre-arranged kata, either paired or solo. The difference is that ( and this is not the case in all systems) the pre-arranged moves come in fast and hard, anyone that has done an old school style knows that one mistake and you pay for it, bigtime.

No one expects people to run before they walk or walk before they crawl BUT what is expected is running and jumping at a certain time.

We go from controlled sparring to free sparring.
We go from safe to less safe.
We must or there is no progress in terms of fighting.

[Dale Dugas]

Ive been working on developing my material to offer such things as a San Da program along with teaching Foundational Skills. Teach people how to Strike, Kick, Throw and Grapple.

all for use, nothing for show.

[YouKnowWho]

The problem is when they're not trained to fight like a kickboxer and they try to imitate how a kickboxer fights. Then it's just bad. In that case I think the person's better off to go to a San Da gym and learn to kickbox in the correct way. At least then they'd have the skill base to ad the traditional techniques if they want to use them.
You used to train your kicks separately. You always repeated

- 20 front kicks,
- 20 roundhouse kicks
- 20 side kicks,
- ...

One day you combine front kick, roundhouse kick, and side kick as a sequence combo (it doesn't exist in any of your traditional forms that you have learned). Another day when you spar with your opponent, your front kick, roundhouse kick, side kick combo just came up without thinking. You have found out that to use your front kick to set up your roundhouse kick, or to use your roundhouse kick to set up your side kick works very well. You start to use this kicking combo in sparring more and more after that.

Will you say that you try to "imitate" kickboxing?

I'm a official Sanda coach in 长春师范学院 Changchun Normal University but all I know is TCMA and I know nothing about kickboxing.

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=zh-CHS&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fold.cncnc.org%2F

[pazman]

Not ALL JMA are like that.
Judo is and hard contact Karate systems are.
The Koryu systems teach pre-arranged kata, either paired or solo. The difference is that ( and this is not the case in all systems) the pre-arranged moves come in fast and hard, anyone that has done an old school style knows that one mistake and you pay for it, bigtime.


Yeah, I should have said "modern JMA". In any case, I never felt friction in JMA between doing the old-school stuff and modern stuff. People who don't practice Judo claim that all the dangerous techniques were removed from jiujitsu. The style of Aikido I practiced in Japan is considered a "sport style" but the syllabus contains things that are verifiably more "traditional" than many other Aikido schools. If you were both a volunteer Kendo instructor and also part of a traditional ryuha, nothing would seem out of place.

I don't really get this feeling in the CMA community. What CMA schools openly embraces both modern and traditional practices and arranges them in a logical and cohesive way? Are there enough to start a trend?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yeah, I should have said "modern JMA". In any case, I never felt friction in JMA between doing the old-school stuff and modern stuff. People who don't practice Judo claim that all the dangerous techniques were removed from jiujitsu. The style of Aikido I practiced in Japan is considered a "sport style" but the syllabus contains things that are verifiably more "traditional" than many other Aikido schools. If you were both a volunteer Kendo instructor and also part of a traditional ryuha, nothing would seem out of place.

I don't really get this feeling in the CMA community. What CMA schools openly embraces both modern and traditional practices and arranges them in a logical and cohesive way? Are there enough to start a trend?

Very well said.
It is true that in most JMA systems the sport and tradition don't oppose each other it tends to happen in CMA.
Of course there are still exceptions and still lineage issues even in JMA, just less because the JMA ryu tend to keep their books a lot better than the CMA did/do.

[YouKnowWho]

It is true that in most JMA systems the sport and tradition don't oppose each other it tends to happen in CMA.

In another forum, I tried to argue with those Ninjutsu guys about "sparring is important". But all they care are just "alive training" such as:

In ninjutsu it is very common to learn defences and offenses to scenarios, Such as both sitting in sieza and one person attacks with a knife. ...

[lkfmdc]

I'm a official Sanda coach in 长春师范学院 Changchun Normal University but all I know is TCMA and I know nothing about kickboxing.

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=zh-CHS&to=en&a=http%3A%2F%2Fold.cncnc.org%2F

This is the sort of sideways conversation I HATE... not you John, and I know what you MEAN, but it's too convoluted

You ARE a Sanda coach because you can train guys to fight...

What do they fight WITH? Not just throws, but kicks and punches also

What does "kickboxing" really mean? Well, ANY kicking and punching combination.. people try to redefine it but that is really it

Sanda, Muay Thai, Japanese "kickboxing", Savate, Holland style "kickboxing" etc are all kickboxing

[MightyB]

This is the sort of sideways conversation I HATE... not you John, and I know what you MEAN, but it's too convoluted

You ARE a Sanda coach because you can train guys to fight...

What do they fight WITH? Not just throws, but kicks and punches also

What does "kickboxing" really mean? Well, ANY kicking and punching combination.. people try to redefine it but that is really it

Sanda, Muay Thai, Japanese "kickboxing", Savate, Holland style "kickboxing" etc are all kickboxing

I wasn't talking about specific techniques or styles, I'm talking about not knowing one thing about kickboxing and trying fight with it because you think it's just a couple of techniques. That's what I call bad kickboxing. In that case, a student is better off going somewhere that specializes in kickboxing like your gym and learning how to properly kickbox.

Here's an example... This is just boxing, forget about kicking and throwing - and look at the nuggets that he's giving in these vids and this is just barely scratching the surface https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF66EF45B433FFE18. Sure you may know how to throw a jab and a cross but that doesn't make you a boxer. capicé?

[lkfmdc]

Here's an example... This is just boxing, forget about kicking and throwing - and look at the nuggets that he's giving in these vids and this is just barely scratching the surface https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF66EF45B433FFE18. Sure you may know how to throw a jab and a cross but that doesn't make you a boxer. capicé?

you are criticizing Rodney King??????????

[MightyB]

Actually - if a TCMA practitioner was serious about finding their fighting root it wouldn't be in MMA IMO. It'd be in a Dog Brothers type environment. To get back to the old fighting ways - cross train some FMA and then stick fight.

[MightyB]

you are criticizing Rodney King??????????

NOOOOO, either I'm writing poorly or you're misreading what I'm writing. I'm saying look at what he's saying in those vids and that's just a tiny portion of what he has to say. So, if Joe Average thinks that boxing is just the ability to Jab and Cross, they have the wrong idea. To learn to box, you have to find a Rodney King to coach you.

[YouKnowWho]

What does "kickboxing" really mean? Well, ANY kicking and punching combination..

What I'm trying to say. A certain kick and punch combo may not exist in your TCMA forms but it doesn't meant that you can't create it yourself. One may say it's may water down your TCMA style. To me, it's enhancement of my TCMA style.

I have learned "right jab, left cross, right hook, left hook" combo from my long fist 扑按对打 (Pu An Dui Da) 2 men form. I have also learned "right hook, right back fist, left uppercut" combo from my prey mantis Ren Je form. If I re-arrange it into "right jab, left cross, right hook, left uppercut" combo which doesn't exist in my TCMA forms, it doesn't mean that I try to fight like a boxer. IMO, kickboxing is the end product of the TCMA. One can reach to kickboxing from different paths. The term "kickboxing" is not a bad word.


To learn to box, you have to find a Rodney King to coach you.

Do I care to fight like a boxer? I don't. No matter how I fight, I still kick and punch like a long fist guy (or a pray mantis guy).

If you use the following tools effectively such as

- jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, side punch, ...
- front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, jump kick, ...

you will fight like a kickboxer no matter you like it or not. If you can't use those tools effectively, you may throw one punch, move back, throw a kick, move back, ... That's not what a TCMA guy suppose to fight like either.

[Faux Newbie]

Do I care to fight like a boxer? I don't. No matter how I fight, I still kick and punch like a long fist guy (or a pray mantis guy).

If you use the following tools effectively such as

- jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, side punch, ...
- front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, jump kick, ...

you will fight like a kickboxer no matter you like it or not. If you can't use those tools effectively, you may throw one punch, move back, throw a kick, move back, ... That's not what a TCMA guy suppose to fight like either.

To build on what MightyB was saying, with those, it's still not the same as kickboxing or kung fu. Evasions are as important as strikes, and set them up. I know you know this, but they are in kung fu as well. I find it useful to look at kung fu moves, and look at boxing or judo or muay thai and see how they use the same moves. I invariably find that the differences in kung fu relate to the idea of integrated striking and throwing, and I end up knowing more about my kung fu.

[YouKnowWho]

the differences in kung fu relate to the idea of integrated striking and throwing,

Yes! TCMA is an integration art. boxing is a pure punching art.

When a

- boxer punches, he will punch out, pull back, punch out again.
- TCMA guy punches, he will punch out, pull back with something (never come back with empty hand), and ...

There is a big difference in strategy used there. I can see to go from boxing to TCMA. I just can't see to go the other way around.

[Faux Newbie]

Yes! TCMA is an integration art. boxing is a pure punching art.

When a

- boxer punches, he will punch out, pull back, punch out again.
- TCMA guy punches, he will punch out, pull back with something (never come back with empty hand), and ...

There is a big difference in strategy used there. I can see to go from boxing to TCMA. I just can't see to go the other way around.

I watched a fight not too long ago, it's old footage, guy named Charley Burley. He was known as a very technical boxer. The fight barely had any combos, because Charley Burley was a bit older, and the other fighter outweighed him, so Charley Burley played his defense so well that his opponent had very little guarantee of landing the first blow, much less a combo, and Charley was just either going in and hitting his opponent and getting out, or his opponent would come in to hit him, Charley dodged it while hitting his opponent and then jumping out, because he knew he could control the fight that way. Everyone once in a while, Charley would just jump in, uppercut his opponent, and jump out. Round after round of it. It was not exciting to watch.

But he just wasn't getting hit much at all. I've never seen anyone, kung fu, boxing, whatever dodge like that that consistently for that many rounds in his late career.

A lot of what he was doing to dodge are old boxing guard work, and are similar to a couple things people do in drunken boxing in spear sets, except, showing it by dodging for round after round.

I just find it makes me understand my stuff to see other stuff. I don't have to use their version, but I always seem to understand mine better that way.

If someone's done it in the ring, some Chinese person invented it first and then added an aerial maneuver.

[YouKnowWho]

dodging for round after round.

From a striker point of view, dodging may sound like a good idea. From a grappler point of view, it's counter productive. How can an octopus be able to catch any fish if it's afraid to move closer to that fish?

[Faux Newbie]

From a striker point of view, dodging may sound like a good idea. From a grappler point of view, it's counter productive. How can an octopus be able to catch any fish if it's afraid to move closer to that fish?

He was not far on a lot of those dodges, he was dodging to stay in range.

[MightyB]

Do I care to fight like a boxer? I don't. No matter how I fight, I still kick and punch like a long fist guy (or a pray mantis guy).

If you use the following tools effectively such as

- jab, cross, hook, uppercut, back fist, hammer fist, side punch, ...
- front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, hook kick, jump kick, ...

you will fight like a kickboxer no matter you like it or not. If you can't use those tools effectively, you may throw one punch, move back, throw a kick, move back, ... That's not what a TCMA guy suppose to fight like either.

I don't mean to use kickboxing as a bad term. What I'm talking about is when a person trains a traditional martial art - doesn't matter what it is - they train a strategy and a skill set. But, they don't trust in that skill set or strategy so when they spar, they do something different. Usually it looks to me like a poor man's version of TKD or kickboxing without the fundamental skills. This happens early in their career and they may find some initial success when they fight other newbies.

5 years go by and they continue on in that traditional style - but they never develop their traditional fundamental skill set because they don't trust it, and they don't use it. They also never progress in their poor man's TKD / bad kickboxing sparring because they don't train that properly either.

In the above case - they would've been better off if they would've just trained San Da or Thai Boxing or even TKD (good TKD guys are very good at sparring) for that 5 years because that's what they feel comfortable with and they would have made a lot of progress.

Instead, they have 5 years in a system they don't really believe in and can't use, and they're also bad at kickboxing.

Now - IF they would've trusted in their style and had a good Sifu who was teaching them the reelz stuff, Yes, they would've made progress, and the end result, like you say - looks a little like kickboxing because they use some of the same techniques. But they also would have a whole grab bag of goodies that's unique to their system that they can play with... and that's where the fun begins.

[RenDaHai]

Instead, they have 5 years in a system they don't really believe in and can't use, and they're also bad at kickboxing.


I agree with what you say completely.

I notice this in so many people.

I think it comes from the way people spar. When someone punches you, you try to avoid it just enough to still be in range for a counter. This is because your mind is thinking in terms of points, how many hits can I get off him, ignoring the reality of danger.

I used to spar like this. But after I have been attacked in reality a few times I realise in reality I do something completely different. I don't dodge a punch by a few inches, i dodge it by a few feet, and many other people do also. When there is real danger and you could lose an eye, a tooth, a handsome nose or your very life, you don't think about scoring points on your enemy, you think full on defend or full on attack.

What happens? You are startled, You are prey, You use pure defence, don't even think of counter attack, they attack relentlessly, then you see their anger wane, there is a moment and you see it in their face, it is like the ball of courage has been passed and it is now yours, your fear spontaneously changes to anger and you attack full on and they are forced back. Instead of being the one for one, jabbing-retreating, countering, weaving that we get in sparring, it is more like it is played in turns. The incentives involved are so different.

Traditional styles, especially those of the longfist are used in this way, they assume you are a defender or an attacker, not a competitor, so if you try to use them under normal sparring conditions, they are not so good and you find sanda much better. I think a lot of people can't control their ego, they want to land a lot of points in sparring, treat it as if its a game, rather than USE the sparring to practice like they were in danger and test themselves. So they start to rely on Sanda and not the traditional technique.

Either strategy can be good if they commit to it, but they stay in the middle.

There is no easy fix to this.

[YouKnowWho]

Instead, they have 5 years in a system they don't really believe in and can't use, and they're also bad at kickboxing.
I think that's the teacher's problem. If in those 5 years, the teacher didn't detect that issue, he can't be a good teacher.

In every class of mine, I would ask my students to get a "head lock" on me, From the pressure that they applied on my head, I could tell whether they had trained "pole hanging" at home or not. I have always told my students that if they don't have faith in "head lock", they should leave and find themselves another teacher.

Also when they spar/wrestle, I want to make sure that they apply strategies such as "big fist", "double spears", "wrist control", "sticky leg", ...

If you train your students this way, there is no way that your students won't fight like they train.

[YouKnowWho]

When someone punches you, you try to avoid it just enough to still be in range for a counter. This is because your mind is thinking in terms of points, how many hits can I get off him, ignoring the reality of danger.

I used to spar like this. But after I have been attacked in reality a few times I realise in reality I do something completely different. I don't dodge a punch by a few inches, i dodge it by a few feet, and many other people do also. When there is real danger and you could lose an eye, a tooth, a handsome nose or your very life, you don't think about scoring points on your enemy, you think full on defend or full on attack.
Most of my guys don't have this problem. Since the major part of their strategy depend on their "head lock", they have to keep moving into their opponents close enough to get their head lock. To dodge or move back will be counter-productive. Now the question is how can you move in while your opponent tries to knock your head off without losing an eye, a tooth, nose, or life? This is how the "big fist" strategy come in handy. When your opponent's arms are in a boxing guard, it's very difficult to get him into a "head lock" because both of his arms are in the way. When your opponent punches at you, his arm will no longer protect his head, It's the best time to take his head.

The nice thing about the "big fist" + "head lock" strategies is it will give you courage to move in, move in, and still move in. If you don't want to get hit on your head, the best solution is to take your opponent's punching ability away ASAP.

If you have confidence in arm wrapping, when you see a punch coming toward your face, you should be happy because that arm is moving toward you and you don't have to move toward that arm. If you think that way, a punch or a kick will be a gift to you. You will no longer be afraid a kick or a punch. Instead, when someone punches or kicks you, you will have a big smile on your face.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rPcIIRoBWo

[Alex Córdoba]

...To learn to box, you have to find a Rodney King to coach you.

Who of this two would you prefer?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXPvZzeb5cE

[Eric Olson]

Good blog post! I would add the caveat that if you focus too much on the fighting too early on that you won't learn the fundamental mechanics of a solid, punch, kick, throw, etc. I've seen a lot of beginners want to get in and spar but they don't have any skills yet to really execute. It can also go too far they other way where people are drilling, drilling, drilling and never do any sparring. It's probably works best as a process: You learn a little bit of form/theory and you take it to free sparring to test it out. That didn't work, adjust. Keep trying until you can apply it or if you can't make it work--adjust the form/theory.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Good blog post! I would add the caveat that if you focus too much on the fighting too early on that you won't learn the fundamental mechanics of a solid, punch, kick, throw, etc. I've seen a lot of beginners want to get in and spar but they don't have any skills yet to really execute. It can also go too far they other way where people are drilling, drilling, drilling and never do any sparring. It's probably works best as a process: You learn a little bit of form/theory and you take it to free sparring to test it out. That didn't work, adjust. Keep trying until you can apply it or if you can't make it work--adjust the form/theory.

I don't know about that, in Judo, boxing, MT, Kyokushin, most MA in fact, beginners are sparring right away.
The DEGREE of contact is adjusted accordingly of course.

[YouKnowWho]

I don't know about that, in Judo, boxing, MT, Kyokushin, most MA in fact, beginners are sparring right away.
The DEGREE of contact is adjusted accordingly of course.

In Chinese wrestling, a new student has to wrestle on day one. This is done for at least 2 reasons (may be more).

1. During that process, the teacher can decide whether that student is worth teaching, or he should find himself another teacher. The 1st day that my teacher met his teacher, the moment that my teacher was thrown down, the moment that he got back up. My teacher's teacher said, "This boy is like a bouncing ball. I like him".

2. Also if a new student can be taken down easily, but after 3 months of training, his opponent can't take him down as easy, he will know that he has progressed. He will then have faith in the art that the teacher tries to teach him.