What other styles are good to mix with Wing Chun?

[jhexx]

I would like to hear what others opinions are on this subject, as I have been debating and researching as to what other fighting style would be a good advantage to have in this modern day! I read Bjj is great to add, and I have been researching to see what options are there that matches and flows with WC. I would love to hear others opinions on this subject. :)

[YouKnowWho]

Did someone already suggested the following 3 styles?

- Emei,
- snake,
- crane. :D

If you want to extend your sticky hand into clinching, what style do you think that can help you to cross that boundary? The true integration will be striking -> clinch -> throw -> ground game. Since BJJ is only good in ground game, you will need to fill in the holes for your "clinch" and "throw" first before you should worry about "ground game".

[jhexx]

Did someone already suggested the following 3 styles?

- Emei,
- snake,
- crane.

If you want to extend your sticky hand into clinching, what style do you think that can help you to cross that line?

What if I am not interested in those three options? The style doesn't necessarily have to deal with clinching necessarily. It would help if it strengthens ground fighting, but I am actually open to suggestions. I am not a brawny person, so it would have to be something that I feel would add to my WC and can be used to confuse an opponent and make it hard to read/ defend against. I appreciate your opinion, thank you :)

[zuti car]

What if I am not interested in those three options? The style doesn't necessarily have to deal with clinching necessarily. It would help if it strengthens ground fighting, but I am actually open to suggestions. I am not a brawny person, so it would have to be something that I feel would add to my WC and can be used to confuse an opponent and make it hard to read/ defend against. I appreciate your opinion, thank you :)

Anything that you find useful, I would recommend Baji , actually , you can quit Wing Chun and devote your self to Baji completely .

[LFJ]

it would have to be something that I feel would add to my WC and can be used to confuse an opponent and make it hard to read/ defend against.

1. Drunken Boxing
2. Monkey Boxing
3. Drunken Monkey Boxing

[Graham H]

I would like to hear what others opinions are on this subject, as I have been debating and researching as to what other fighting style would be a good advantage to have in this modern day! I read Bjj is great to add, and I have been researching to see what options are there that matches and flows with WC. I would love to hear others opinions on this subject. :)

Nothing!

As soon as you start adding things to VT it is no longer VT. If you think VT is lacking in certain areas then why not just go to an MMA club where they cover all bases?

The main reason people add things to the system is because their VT is flawed and they can't make it work. If you add BJJ then why not add more? When will it end? Maybe add some firearm work into the system.

The secret 6th form of Ving Tsun.................an oozi 9mm :D:rolleyes:

[GlennR]

Nothing!

As soon as you start adding things to VT it is no longer VT. If you think VT is lacking in certain areas then why not just go to an MMA club where they cover all bases?

The main reason people add things to the system is because their VT is flawed and they can't make it work. If you add BJJ then why not add more? When will it end? Maybe add some firearm work into the system.

The secret 6th form of Ving Tsun.................an oozi 9mm :D:rolleyes:

Back again Graham!!

FWIW, i basically agree with you

[HybridWarrior]

Nothing!

As soon as you start adding things to VT it is no longer VT. If you think VT is lacking in certain areas then why not just go to an MMA club where they cover all bases?

The main reason people add things to the system is because their VT is flawed and they can't make it work.


I generally agree with Graham on this one. Just "one" art alone is a lifetime...trying to dabble in several is not optimal IMO.
PS: why not master the art of being a sniper!?!?!? :D You'd be very far away from your adversary and wouldn't have to worry about clinching, throws, etc! hahaha

[Paddington]

I would like to hear what others opinions are on this subject, as I have been debating and researching as to what other fighting style would be a good advantage to have in this modern day! I read Bjj is great to add, and I have been researching to see what options are there that matches and flows with WC. I would love to hear others opinions on this subject. :)

Personally I have found judo and jiujitsu very complimentary. However, my preference for those arts is because they were some of the first that I took part in. I also enjoy the more cardiovascular work out that they allow.

[KPM]

I would like to hear what others opinions are on this subject, as I have been debating and researching as to what other fighting style would be a good advantage to have in this modern day! I read Bjj is great to add, and I have been researching to see what options are there that matches and flows with WC. I would love to hear others opinions on this subject. :)

No art is perfect, even Wing Chun! Every art has gaps. One of Wing Chun's gaps is ground-fighting. So I think...yes....BJJ is a good complement to Wing Chun if you are interested in being able to defend yourself or fight on the ground. Another gap in Wing Chun is practical weapons work. No one carries around a pair of short swords or an 8 foot pole! So training something like Escrima to see how they use a stick and then exploring how you can adapt your Wing Chun to the use of the stick based on that experience is valuable. Training with a tactical folder is valuable because the best way to understand how to defend against someone with a knife is to understand how to effectively use a knife. I've seen too many Wing Chun people demo'ing self defense moves against a knife attack that would just get someone killed because they really have no idea what to expect from the knife wielder. Personally, I like and train what Jim Keating and Mike Janich have taught over the years.

And it is good to cross-train in just about anything. You don't have to do it with the purpose of "blending" it with your Wing Chun. Training in a completely different art will give you new insight into how your Wing Chun works. Over the years I've cross-trained in Escrima, Panantukan/Maphilindo Silat, Ninjutsu, German Longsword, German Sword & Buckler, Old School Western Boxing, Bowie Knife, Tomahawk, and tactical folder. I think each one gave me some amount of new understanding or insight into my Wing Chun.

[Graham H]

Back again Graham!!

FWIW, i basically agree with you

I look in from time to time Glenda but there is rarely anything worth commenting on these days. Same old same old but without me in the mix which makes me slightly aroused :)

[Graham H]

No art is perfect, even Wing Chun! .

Correct so it's better to invest all the time you have in becoming proficient in your chosen discipline rather than spend less time trying to perfect many.

Each to their own I guess. There are too many variables to try and cover everything in the short time we have.

[GlennR]

I look in from time to time Glenda but there is rarely anything worth commenting on these days. Same old same old but without me in the mix which makes me slightly aroused :)

Gee G, join in...... i miss your spirited banter!

Apparently me too dum for Paddigtons speak stuff?

[Graham H]

Gee G, join in...... i miss your spirited banter!

Apparently me too dum for Paddigtons speak stuff?

The banter is good but many of these threads descend into complete chaos, one-upmanship and in some cases down right nastiness!

Better to concentrate on brighter things ;):)

[GlennR]

The banter is good but many of these threads descend into complete chaos, one-upmanship and in some cases down right nastiness!

Better to concentrate on brighter things ;):)

True, hows your training going G?

[Graham H]

True, hows your training going G?

All good in da hood bro! I kind of do my own thing now. I just work out with like minded people. Don't really teach too much. I prefer practicing.

The freedom to express myself in my own way is quite liberating. Of course I have PB to thank for pointing me in the right direction and also Michael Kurth who is very good but the whole organization thing is not for me. In fact the only thing I like about Ving Tsun is Ving Tsun. The marketing, politics, people that charge stupid amounts of money for tuition and general worldwide BS that surrounds it doesn't interest me anymore.

It really is crazy what goes on in Ving Tsun circles these days.

What about you mate?

[GlennR]

All good in da hood bro! I kind of do my own thing now. I just work out with like minded people. Don't really teach too much. I prefer practicing.

The freedom to express myself in my own way is quite liberating. Of course I have PB to thank for pointing me in the right direction and also Michael Kurth who is very good but the whole organization thing is not for me. In fact the only thing I like about Ving Tsun is Ving Tsun. The marketing, politics, people that charge stupid amounts of money for tuition and general worldwide BS that surrounds it doesn't interest me anymore.

It really is crazy what goes on in Ving Tsun circles these days.

What about you mate?

Great to hear G, I'm truly over the wing Chun organisation thing as well, it's boring and to be honest just doesn't help with the training IMO

I've really concentrated on boxing this year and I've been asked to go in a masters boxing fight in a couple of months..... Love it

I'll post the fight once it's done
Good to hear things are going well!

Gotta ask, spoken to kev?

[MightyB]

training something like Escrima to see how they use a stick and then exploring how you can adapt your Wing Chun to the use of the stick based on that experience is valuable.

Kali/Escrima/Arnis ads a lot to and works well with any Chinese Martial Art.

[Frost]

Gotta ask, spoken to kev?

Oh you had to go there didn’t you!
Im actually glad Grahams posted a few times, I miss his posts and glad his training is going well, if you post the clip of yourself in a master boxing match Ill post a clip of myself in my next masters judo comp lol

[Graham H]

Great to hear G, I'm truly over the wing Chun organisation thing as well, it's boring and to be honest just doesn't help with the training IMO

I've really concentrated on boxing this year and I've been asked to go in a masters boxing fight in a couple of months..... Love it

I'll post the fight once it's done
Good to hear things are going well!

Gotta ask, spoken to kev?

Boxing training is and always will be a big part of my routine. I have been toying with the idea of doing the White Collar thing but I blow hot and cold with it. I've even gone back to hitting the bags as a boxer occasionally rather than just Ving Tsun. What harm can a few hooks and uppercuts do eh? I still manage to maintain my VT shape in sparring without the need chuck a bob or weave in :D

I did like my days in the ring..............

Ving Tsun practice really is enough for me at the mo. There is more than enough work to do in the system.

As for Kev he is the same. Practicing the WSLPBVT method as usual and he chooses not to get wrapped up in internet wars now. Fair play to him I say.

[Graham H]

oh you had to go there didn’t you!

lolololololol

[sanjuro_ronin]

I would like to hear what others opinions are on this subject, as I have been debating and researching as to what other fighting style would be a good advantage to have in this modern day! I read Bjj is great to add, and I have been researching to see what options are there that matches and flows with WC. I would love to hear others opinions on this subject. :)

It would depend on what stage you are in your development.
I wouldn't add another striking art for obvious reasons.
Many times it isn't a question of mixing a style with WC but simply cross TESTING WC VS other systems.
Sometimes the solution to the puzzle of another system is simply to fight it and find out what works.
That said, no style is complete so to mix into it things that you know are lacking to make yourself a more rounded fighter, is not a bad thing.
Just make sure your core is solid.

[Graham H]

Many times it isn't a question of mixing a style with WC but simply cross TESTING WC VS other systems.

In what context? You mean in competition? How can you test Ving Tsun in a street fight when you don't know anything about your attacker? If you wish to cover every single outcome you will be disappointed. Its not possible. Victory depends on too many things to think that your great VTBJJ will help you in real life. Maybe all you need is a powerful punch or maybe all you need is a cloaking device :rolleyes:. It really is stupid discussion.

IMO Ving Tsun is a pretty useless competition style. You can see this when you look at competitions when both participants are just trying to chain punch each others head off. When they realise that is not working they are already tired and it ends up in some sort of messy grabbing kick boxing farce. In competition both fighters are conditioned and prepared to fight. That already makes things hard. If it were me I would go and train specifically for the type of competition. In most cases specifically MMA because they train to be well rounded fighters. What is the point in mixing VT with anything???????

If you think a pak sau and a few chain punches will win in the Octagon you would be wrong. Many WC lineages don't even train to fight. They have some sort of BS Tai Chi soft yeilding woman arrogance thinking they can adapt their WC to anything. Soft touching arms forward and backwards around and around. It's nonsense. Any decent well conditioned fighter would destroy your average WC guy. Fact!

Now if you have somebody that is well conditioned. Has a strategy, timing, focus and precision. Can recognize and find chances. Has good striking power and courage then in the street VT is pretty useful. In an MMA bout where the other guy also has these attributes but can Box, Thai box, shoot fight, BJJ and just likes to kick butt you tell me who is more likely to win? The MMA guy? You may be right but what if the VT guy lands the first shot and knocks him clean out? What can he do then?

Too many variables. Practice one thing well and leave the rest to the dreamers................

[PalmStriker]

:) TCMA Di Sha Shou http://www.kungfulibrary.com/shaolin-chin-na.htm

[sanjuro_ronin]

In what context? You mean in competition? How can you test Ving Tsun in a street fight when you don't know anything about your attacker? If you wish to cover every single outcome you will be disappointed. Its not possible. Victory depends on too many things to think that your great VTBJJ will help you in real life. Maybe all you need is a powerful punch or maybe all you need is a cloaking device :rolleyes:. It really is stupid discussion.

IMO Ving Tsun is a pretty useless competition style. You can see this when you look at competitions when both participants are just trying to chain punch each others head off. When they realise that is not working they are already tired and it ends up in some sort of messy grabbing kick boxing farce. In competition both fighters are conditioned and prepared to fight. That already makes things hard. If it were me I would go and train specifically for the type of competition. In most cases specifically MMA because they train to be well rounded fighters. What is the point in mixing VT with anything???????

If you think a pak sau and a few chain punches will win in the Octagon you would be wrong. Many WC lineages don't even train to fight. They have some sort of BS Tai Chi soft yeilding woman arrogance thinking they can adapt their WC to anything. Soft touching arms forward and backwards around and around. It's nonsense. Any decent well conditioned fighter would destroy your average WC guy. Fact!

Now if you have somebody that is well conditioned. Has a strategy, timing, focus and precision. Can recognize and find chances. Has good striking power and courage then in the street VT is pretty useful. In an MMA bout where the other guy also has these attributes but can Box, Thai box, shoot fight, BJJ and just likes to kick butt you tell me who is more likely to win? The MMA guy? You may be right but what if the VT guy lands the first shot and knocks him clean out? What can he do then?

Too many variables. Practice one thing well and leave the rest to the dreamers................

No, not competition per say, but simply by fighting other fighters from other systems like, *gasp*, has been done through the ages in TCMA.
Its not a revolutionary idea but tradition in MA.
Sometimes the cross testing was via a challenge and other times via friendly sparring.

The point is to get OUT of your comfort zone ( WC VS WC with your buddies) and try it out VS things you do NOT get exposed to every day.
No one advocates getting in to a fight in the street to test your WC.
But if you don't test it, what makes you think it works?
Closed, cooperative, friendly sparring in the class with your fellow WC students?
In the beginning stages sure, BUT if you really want to test your WC one of the best ways is to cross test.
Of course if you don't see the value of testing your WC, that's fine too.

[JPinAZ]

I would like to hear what others opinions are on this subject, as I have been debating and researching as to what other fighting style would be a good advantage to have in this modern day! I read Bjj is great to add, and I have been researching to see what options are there that matches and flows with WC. I would love to hear others opinions on this subject. :)

My first question would be WHY someone wants to mix in something else?
My second would be, how long have you been training WC and have you completed the basic ideas of system? (And I'm not really talking about, have you learned all of the forms, dummy, and weapons, but the core concepts of WC)

I ask because, if someone is thinking "man, I have holes in my wing chun - I need to add something else in", but haven't even finished the system, or have only been training 6 months or a year, when then I'd say sure you're going to have holes! Besides that, I don't look at WC as a style. It's a principle based fighting art. Once the WC principles & concepts have been learned and started to be internalized, then it isn't a matter of 'what next?'. At that point, it's really about understanding what works best & most efficient at any given time - regardless the technique you learned or mixed in from some other style. WC's principle based method of fighting is to move beyond that anyway.

And to agree with a previous post, once you get to the point you are comfortable with these things, it's then really about pressure testing. If things start falling apart (and they should if you are training against people better than you), then it's more of an experience thing vs 'my art doesn't work'. And then, there's the chance that you had a lousy teacher and yeah, it's probably a good idea to move on and find another teacher :)

[Grumblegeezer]

:) My first question is: WHY would someone not want to mix a two art style with another style, traditionally speaking, of course?

Mix WC with a lesser art? Gasp!!! That's just wrong!--Sheesh!

Ok, seriously now, Sticking to "pure" WC is fine. You can do a lot with that alone. Cross-training is also fine. It really comes down to what you want to do. Heck, I bought a unicycle a couple of years back and had a ball with it. I think people need to lighten up a bit around here.

Now to respond to the OP, I enjoy Eskrima and if I were younger, I would work more on grappling (by which I mean working from the clinch, throwing and groundwork). Those are choices that I feel complement rather than contradict my WC. And, if like me, WC has become your core art, I would seek out trainers or coaches in whatever other arts you choose who are amenable to cross-training and will help you integrate what you learn without watering down your WC.

And finally, whether you cross-train or not, testing your art against others who train other things, like Sanjuro Ronin advised, is not only good for your own development, it's fun.

[Vajramusti]

Mix WC with a lesser art? Gasp!!! That's just wrong!--Sheesh!

Ok, seriously now, Sticking to "pure" WC is fine. You can do a lot with that alone. Cross-training is also fine. It really comes down to what you want to do. Heck, I bought a unicycle a couple of years back and had a ball with it. I think people need to lighten up a bit around here.

Now to respond to the OP, I enjoy Eskrima and if I were younger, I would work more on grappling (by which I mean working from the clinch, throwing and groundwork). Those are choices that I feel complement rather than contradict my WC. And, if like me, WC has become your core art, I would seek out trainers or coaches in whatever other arts you choose who are amenable to cross-training and will help you integrate what you learn without watering down your WC.

And finally, whether you cross-train or not, testing your art against others who train other things, like Sanjuro Ronin advised, is not only good for your own development, it's fun.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do test my wing chun against different kinds of styles and learn how to handle them.
I find that my wing chun platform suits me fine. I think it is a complete art comparatively speaking.
If one sticks with a good version of it you can become quite versatile...even if you find yourself on the ground.
There are lots of recovery concepts in wing chun,


But i dont criticize anyone who learns other styles for their own reasons..

[GlennR]

Oh you had to go there didn’t you!
Im actually glad Grahams posted a few times, I miss his posts and glad his training is going well, if you post the clip of yourself in a master boxing match Ill post a clip of myself in my next masters judo comp lol

Yeh, graham was always alright...... For a wanker lol

Done deal on the clip

[jhexx]

I appreciate the time everyone took to read and then reply to my post. I don't think I lack at the point I am at in WC, I still have a lot to learn, but before I went into a traditional school that offered the Jiu Wan WC version, My father taught me a decent amount of WSL version as well. As far as the Jiu Wan version, I literally started it about 4 months ago, but because I moved to another state, I was not able to continue training with my sifu, Herb Schmeider, and I would like to continue the same style, but no one around the Colorado area I know of teaches that version, public or private that I know of. I am just a baby in it, yellow status. When my father taught me what he learned, I learned a bit started when I was 3 or 4 years old. I learned the first form for both versions, but have not got to Chum Kiu/ Biu Jee. When my father taught he was not into colors or status, he just taught me actual applications and some chi sao and sparred quite a bit. With training with him over the years it was on and off due to me being partly lazy and not taking it as serious as I should have up to age 22, as well as my parents moving to another state during which in those 4 years I was not able to go and see him to continue training. I restarted Training WC going full blast into it as of end of 2012 with my father.

At the suggestion of my father after 1 year of hard training and conditioning from end of 2012- 2013 with mostly the basics and some chi sao as well as the theories, he suggested I should go to a traditional school and learn from the ground up to strengthen my WC. So I had joined The South Florida Wing Chun academy where Sifu Herb taught us. It was a great school and the students were very good to get along with, and we would spar from time to time, do drills etc. I earned my yellow in less than 3 months. My sifu mentioned I was a bit more advanced than most that started with him, which I credit to my father's teaching. But because I had to move to CO due to family reasons, I was not able to continue as much as I wanted to. My goal is to become certified in WC one day, no matter how long it takes me to reach it, it is a personal goal of mine.
After reading how others integrate at least one more style only to have the ability to switch from one to another on the fly I was only curious about this information , hence my post. :)

I do know that WC is and will be my core style, but even my father said it is good to learn other arts here and there, just make sure you have one that you rely and know very well before you add anything, and I agree with some of the sentiments in this thread. So what I been doing is just training every other day about 2 hrs a training day, 3 to 4 times a week everything my sifu has taught me up to where I am at now, only thing I don't know anyone to chi sao with so that sucks :(

I believe that sparring is a very great way to understand and become more versatile with WC applications. Maybe I should shadow box a bit more, and try to find others to spar with, but that will take a bit of time, as I do not know anyone out here that I can train with :)

Thank you again everyone, I appreciate the opinions and comments!

[anerlich]

Said HybridWarrior:


trying to dabble in several is not optimal IMO.

Bit ironic with that screen name, bro.

[anerlich]

Some people go into Wing Chun because they fervently believe it to be the supreme ultimate fighting style and you really need to be the deadliest fighter possible. If this is you, you probably want to pursue it alone.

If you don't believe that, then you might want to look at other systems as well.

A lot of Wing Chun guys do arnis or Escrima. Others do BJJ, Judo, and grappling arts.

If you want to become a fully rounded fighter, you should explore standup (boxing, kickboxing, Kung Fu, karate, MT, etc.), clinch (judo, wrestling, etc.), and groundfighting (BJJ and judo).

It depends what you want to do. If something looks interesting, go check it out. Life is about discovery and following your interests. Not doing what someone else says you should do.

Personally I started with a guy who taught a very effective mix of Wing Chun, Choy Li Fut, and Northern Sil Lum. He showed me that the concept of pure arts being the most effective was not true. Every art needs to evolve.

Currently I'm training nearly all BJJ because to me it the most interesting MA I've come across, and is evolving all the time. With some WC just to keep the pugilistic skills up.

I don't believe in trying to blend arts, though. I used to think my WC history would make it easier for me to learn BJJ, and that I could use "WC principles" to learn BJJ faster, but I realised that would not work at around blue belt level. You have to approach each art with a clean slate.

[Graham H]

Yeh, graham was always alright...... For a wanker lol

Done deal on the clip

When you are old being known as a w@nker isn't so bad! ;)

As for the current topic I believe that a lot of people cross train WC because the WC is poor or incorrect. That is based on my experience and I have had a lot of it.

Anyway styles don't make fighters and as I have said many times before the scariest people I know don't even do MA so sometimes the bubble needs to be burst.

Everything really depends on the individuals, the time, the place, the surroundings. These kind of things determine the outcome of a fight. In competition the participants are matched very even. In real life they are not.

In the past I have seen people get KTFO who have had a reputation as being handy MAist's by just your average drunk Joe outside a bar so I don't really believe that any style is perfect. It's the person.

As most of us on this forum are pretty invisible to each other it's completely possible that the biggest idiot on here (no names) could kick all our asses. Who know's? Who cares?

[anerlich]

the biggest idiot on here (no names)

Man, the list of contenders is a long one.

[KPM]

Man, the list of contenders is a long one.

Yeah. It includes essentially anyone that takes their time to post here!

[Graham H]

Yeah. It includes essentially anyone that takes their time to post here!

Difficult to tell what people are really like until you meet them and impossible to tell how capable they are at expressing their MA.

[tc101]

When you are old being known as a w@nker isn't so bad! ;)

As for the current topic I believe that a lot of people cross train WC because the WC is poor or incorrect. That is based on my experience and I have had a lot of it.

Anyway styles don't make fighters and as I have said many times before the scariest people I know don't even do MA so sometimes the bubble needs to be burst.

Everything really depends on the individuals, the time, the place, the surroundings. These kind of things determine the outcome of a fight. In competition the participants are matched very even. In real life they are not.

In the past I have seen people get KTFO who have had a reputation as being handy MAist's by just your average drunk Joe outside a bar so I don't really believe that any style is perfect. It's the person.

As most of us on this forum are pretty invisible to each other it's completely possible that the biggest idiot on here (no names) could kick all our asses. Who know's? Who cares?

People so call cross train for all kinds of different reasons. I think the real question isn't the cross part but the training part.

You seem to me to be suggesting that training doesn't matter that there are scary people who haven't trained (true) that all kinds of variables come into play in a street fight (also true) and that trained people have been beaten by untrained people (true). You are also right that it is the person not the style.

The conclusion to all this is to be the best most prepared person you can. The better prepared you are the better your chances to prevail. This is where training comes in. Real training improves the person. Conditioning improves your ability to perform and in fact your performance ability in fighting is dictated by your conditioning level. Skill training hones your ability to fight. There are never guarantees only chances this is true on the street and also in competition. Training just increases your chances.

Yes competition fighting is not street assaults. This does not mean competition fighting is not important. Yes you are evenly matched in weight experience and so forth. Yes there are rules. But to focus on the constraints of competition misses the bigger picture. Guys who have actually fought in competition see that bigger picture. The bigger picture is that competition fighting allows you to really and legally use your training to fight against someone really fighting you back.

Sparring and competition is the way we can lawfully practice really using our skills and by really I mean for real that is to really punch your opponent really choke him really take him down really kick him with all your power and so forth and to really deal with him trying to do the same. From doing this we see how things really work for ourselves as individuals how to really do thing and put them together for ourselves. There is no guess work or speculation or theory to it.

[KPM]

Difficult to tell what people are really like until you meet them and impossible to tell how capable they are at expressing their MA.

Very true Graham! Which is exactly the point I have tried to make on other threads about this being a discussion forum and not a youtube channel, and that to demand that people somehow prove that they are knowledgeable and capable is somewhat pointless.

[tc101]

Very true Graham! Which is exactly the point I have tried to make on other threads about this being a discussion forum and not a youtube channel, and that to demand that people somehow prove that they are knowledgeable and capable is somewhat pointless.

KPM I am not demanding people prove how knowledgeable or capable they are I am saying that when people talk about things they are not really doing then they are just idly speculating. If you want to exchange idle speculation with others idly speculating that's fine with me. It's a free country with freedom of speech. Why get annoyed when some one points out that what you are doing is armchair idle speculation then? If you are an honest person I'd think you'd have no problem saying yeah it is just speculation.

[anerlich]

Yeah. It includes essentially anyone that takes their time to post here!

True.....................

[anerlich]

Difficult to tell what people are really like until you meet them and impossible to tell how capable they are at expressing their MA.

Also true...

[Graham H]

Training just increases your chances.

This is my thinking exactly but there is an argument that could mean practicing an MA may have negative consequences in the heat of the moment.

Our natural behaviour will always take priority if we are trying to avoid severe injury or death.

As an example a guy could try and be a hero because he practices MA and get himself into serious trouble. Untrained and scared he might just run away.

You see there are too many variables to find a positive answer to all this. The best we can do is to enjoy the experience of training and developing and should the need to use it arise the outcome will not be known until after.

No point in dwelling too much IMO..............

[Graham H]

........................of course in competitions things are different. There are rules, regulations, judges and doctors all their to make decisions fair and help the injured. Also there is protective and padded equipment in play.

[Paddington]

[...] You see there are too many variables to find a positive answer to all this. The best we can do is to enjoy the experience of training and developing and should the need to use it arise the outcome will not be known until after

I agree. A good point well made.

[KPM]

KPM I am not demanding people prove how knowledgeable or capable they are I am saying that when people talk about things they are not really doing then they are just idly speculating. If you want to exchange idle speculation with others idly speculating that's fine with me. It's a free country with freedom of speech. Why get annoyed when some one points out that what you are doing is armchair idle speculation then? If you are an honest person I'd think you'd have no problem saying yeah it is just speculation.

My point...is that you don't know whether someone is "idling spectulating" or not just from a discussion forum. So what is the point in constantly saying the same **** thing over and over in every discussion? An honest person would just accept what people are saying at face value and realize that....again....Difficult to tell what people are really like until you meet them and impossible to tell how capable they are at expressing their MA.

[Frost]

Very true Graham! Which is exactly the point I have tried to make on other threads about this being a discussion forum and not a youtube channel, and that to demand that people somehow prove that they are knowledgeable and capable is somewhat pointless.

But if said people are saying either
1) what you are doing in not wing chun it doesnt look like how wing chun should look when fighting ,
or
2) your training is incomplete and is missing the secret xxx that i have
then its up to those making the comments to show and prove their points otherwise why make them?
1) Show us what chun should look like in a fight, they should be be able to since they know what it shouldnt look like afterall
2) they should be able to show how more complete their art is with xxx added, not by endless posts or rants to a video recorder, but by showing us its results in fighting

[JPinAZ]

Difficult to tell what people are really like until you meet them and impossible to tell how capable they are at expressing their MA.

Eh, in a few cases it's pretty easy to spot who does & can do what they actually say and who doesn't/can't.

[tc101]

My point...is that you don't know whether someone is "idling spectulating" or not just from a discussion forum. So what is the point in constantly saying the same **** thing over and over in every discussion? An honest person would just accept what people are saying at face value and realize that....again....Difficult to tell what people are really like until you meet them and impossible to tell how capable they are at expressing their MA.

Actually it is fairly easy to tell who is doing it and who is idly speculating. For example going back to your control the opponents center of gravity idea that is idle speculation. I even asked you are you doing that in sparring? And you're not. I asked if you could point me to any videos of some one doing it and not just for a split second per chance in fighting or sparring and you couldn't. You could show me demos and provide things others have said but that is not convincing since anyone can demo anything and anyone can say anything. You are not talking from direct knowledge.

You see you are not saying do this because I am doing it and it works and you are not saying do this here are people doing it and it works. Everything else is speculation. If you don't really know something can't you just be honest and say so?

Now why is Alan Orr saying do this or that? And btw do you notice he never says his is the only or best way or that you should do it his way? Because he and his guys are doing it.

I do not accept what people are saying at face value. That is what gullible people do. Sensible people run everything they hear through their BS meter and their experience to evaluate it.

Yes I agree that it can be difficult to know what someone is capable of or their skill level based solely on what people say but on the other hand some people can say things that can give you a really really good idea of their experience level and likely abilities. People who argue for example that sparring is not absolutely critical to fighting skill development are telling me they have not sparred and so can not have developed much fighting skill.

[KPM]

Actually it is fairly easy to tell who is doing it and who is idly speculating. For example going back to your control the opponents center of gravity idea that is idle speculation. I even asked you are you doing that in sparring? And you're not. I asked if you could point me to any videos of some one doing it and not just for a split second per chance in fighting or sparring and you couldn't. You could show me demos and provide things others have said but that is not convincing since anyone can demo anything and anyone can say anything. You are not talking from direct knowledge.

Absolutely anyone can say and demo anything! Hence my point that you can't really know what they are capable of unless you meet them face to face! You just stated my point for me, but you still refuse to "get it"! As far as "idle speculation" about controlling someone's center of gravity, would you be saying that if it was Alan Orr rather than little ole me? Because he teaches this. Its in his videos. And I am doing it in sparring. And no, I'm not going to shoot a video of it just for you.

You've just proven to me that it is pointless to engage you in any kind of discussion. You don't really have anything of value to say. The only input you have is that people aren't training realistically and aren't "doing", and can't really use their Wing Chun. Yet you yourself don't post any videos showing you "doing" or "sparring" or even "training realistically" and you have very little to say of how to do any of it rather than to tell people to go to a boxing gym. Any discussion with you just ends in frustration. You aren't worth talking to.

And I don't believe you when you say you are interested in other people's Wing Chun. I think you are only interested in arguing.

So, from here on out I am igoring you as much as possible. I know you could care less and will say "good riddance." But if everyone stopped responding to your mantra, then you wouldn't have anyone to talk you, now would you? :cool:

[sanjuro_ronin]

........................of course in competitions things are different. There are rules, regulations, judges and doctors all their to make decisions fair and help the injured. Also there is protective and padded equipment in play.

Quite correct, it is a level playing field (as much as it can be) which means if you can't do well there, you have even LESS chances on the street where there are no rules.

[paulcaz]

Catch wrestling for me has been a tremendous compliment to wing chun. Once the distance is closed/crashed/compromised CACC is effective at answering those types of questions. It is messy, brutal and friggin great fun too. CACC also diminshes any ideas you have about ego which is humbling and essential for growth.

[Grumblegeezer]

[B]And I don't believe you when you say you are interested in other people's Wing Chun. I think you are only interested in arguing.

So, from here on out I am igoring you as much as possible.

KPM, why can't you accept that other people are entitled to strong opinions that you do not agree with? I mean Twen frequently states 1. He is skeptical of any claims not backed up by sparring or fighting, and 2. he believes that sparring is absolutely essential to developing realistic skill. Those are totally legit points of view. I may not agree 100%, but I'm not going to argue with him. Personally, I think he does a very fair job of representing his perspective, and it's a point of view that needs to be heard.

[KPM]

KPM, why can't you accept that other people are entitled to strong opinions that you do not agree with? I mean Twen frequently states 1. He is skeptical of any claims not backed up by sparring or fighting, and 2. he believes that sparring is absolutely essential to developing realistic skill. Those are totally legit points of view. I may not agree 100%, but I'm not going to argue with him. Personally, I think he does a very fair job of representing his perspective, and it's a point of view that needs to be heard.

Except that he repeats that point of view over and over on every thread. Don't you get tired of hearing it? And if he is going to direct that strong opinion at me, then yes I am goint to disagree with him. The guy has a one-track mind. But it doesn't matter at this point. I have him on my "ignore" list. Problem solved! ;)

[jhexx]

There are a lot of great points about the thread's subject matter, and I again thank everyone so far for contributing their opinions and thoughts on the subject. :)
There is so much I need to learn in WC, and I do know it is very important to be skilled in one art, than to mix or match too many and not master any of them. Again I thank you guys, now I am off to re read Wing Chun by J.Y Lee. Thanks fellas :D

[tc101]

Except that he repeats that point of view over and over on every thread. Don't you get tired of hearing it? And if he is going to direct that strong opinion at me, then yes I am goint to disagree with him. The guy has a one-track mind. But it doesn't matter at this point. I have him on my "ignore" list. Problem solved! ;)

KPM I get tired of hearing your POV also lol and since you give your view on every thread why can't I give mine?

I am interested in more than just fighting, I am very interested in the various lineage models of wing chun. The unfortunate thing is people usually can't say this is how we train, these are the exercises we do, and so forth they often try to justify what they are doing with references to fighting or application and that I think is a problem if they are not doing it.

[LFJ]

KPM, why can't you accept that other people are entitled to strong opinions that you do not agree with? I mean Twen frequently states 1. He is skeptical of any claims not backed up by sparring or fighting, and 2. he believes that sparring is absolutely essential to developing realistic skill. Those are totally legit points of view. I may not agree 100%, but I'm not going to argue with him. Personally, I think he does a very fair job of representing his perspective, and it's a point of view that needs to be heard.

In many cases it's a valid point. Problem is, Twenty repeats the same thing in response to almost everyone regardless of what their comment even is and even if it's not immediately relevant to the topic at hand. It becomes rather condescending the way he tells everyone "if you were actually...".

[Wayfaring]

I actually have one recommendation on a style that would be absolutely the best to mix with Wing Chun.

I know most of you are going to guess BJJ, or wrestling, or MMA. But no it's not any of these.

What style would be best to mix?

A "sense of humor" style. Especially when looking in the mirror. I think an engine built on that will lift you up far above other engines. I mean that engine would even withstand Obasi grabbing your wrists during chi sau and posting the vid on the internets.

Not so sure about these other engines.

[JPinAZ]

Except that he repeats that point of view over and over on every thread. Don't you get tired of hearing it? And if he is going to direct that strong opinion at me, then yes I am goint to disagree with him. The guy has a one-track mind. But it doesn't matter at this point. I have him on my "ignore" list. Problem solved! ;)

So what you are saying is, you only disagree with him because he repeats his opinion and it's a 'strong' opinion, and not necessarily because you feel he is wrong? That doesn't make a lot of sense. Curious if you take this view with everyone that has strong beliefs in their views. If so, doesn't sound like you are very open minded (no offense intended)

Personally, yeah, it gets tiring hearing this 'T' repeat the exact same mantras as the old 'T' did (but I admit this T is a lot more subdued). But, I don't see him as necessarily wrong in a lot of cases either, regardless of the tiring repetition. They both share a lot of similar points that ring true if someone has actually put in the work he's talking about.

[JPinAZ]

I actually have one recommendation on a style that would be absolutely the best to mix with Wing Chun.

I know most of you are going to guess BJJ, or wrestling, or MMA. But no it's not any of these.

What style would be best to mix?

A "sense of humor" style. Especially when looking in the mirror. I think an engine built on that will lift you up far above other engines. I mean that engine would even withstand Obasi grabbing your wrists during chi sau and posting the vid on the internets.

Not so sure about these other engines.

lol, I wonder if you could replace a Wankel engine with a "Sense of Humor"-built engine as well?

[KPM]

So what you are saying is, you only disagree with him because he repeats his opinion and it's a 'strong' opinion, and not necessarily because you feel he is wrong? That doesn't make a lot of sense. Curious if you take this view with everyone that has strong beliefs in their views. If so, doesn't sound like you are very open minded (no offense intended)

Personally, yeah, it gets tiring hearing this 'T' repeat the exact same mantras as the old 'T' did (but I admit this T is a lot more subdued). But, I don't see him as necessarily wrong in a lot of cases either, regardless of the tiring repetition. They both share a lot of similar points that ring true if someone has actually put in the work he's talking about.

No. I'm not disagreeing with him simply because he repeats the same thing over and over. What I disagree with is that despite points and evidence to the contrary of his mantra, he still repeats the same mantra over and over. I am perfectly willing to acknowledge that...yes...sparring is important and valuable. But T is unwilling to admit that other modes of training are also important and valuable. That is what I disagree with, and why I grow tired of seeing him say the same thing over and over and over. But if you enjoy hearing him say the same thing over and over and not acknowledge anyone else's points that may contradict his mantra, well then you just go right on ahead and read his every post! ;)

[JPinAZ]

But if you enjoy hearing him say the same thing over and over and not acknowledge anyone else's points that may contradict his mantra, well then you just go right on ahead and read his every post! ;)

Again, putting words in my mouth. I made no such claim.
well, doesn't matter now anyway since you said "it doesn't matter at this point. I have him on my "ignore" list. Problem solved!". But then again, you seem talk about him almost as much after you put him on Ignore as you did to him before you Ignored him! haha ;)

[Graham H]

Surprise, surprise! Yet another thread nose dives into the toilet. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[KPM]

Again, putting words in my mouth. I made no such claim.
well, doesn't matter now anyway since you said "it doesn't matter at this point. I have him on my "ignore" list. Problem solved!". But then again, you seem talk about him almost as much after you put him on Ignore as you did to him before you Ignored him! haha ;)

GG brought him up, you brought him up, you even quoted him on another thread. So laugh all you want. You seem to be a bit out of touch.

Yes Graham, you are right. My apologies for taking part in that.

[tc101]

No. I'm not disagreeing with him simply because he repeats the same thing over and over. What I disagree with is that despite points and evidence to the contrary of his mantra, he still repeats the same mantra over and over. I am perfectly willing to acknowledge that...yes...sparring is important and valuable. But T is unwilling to admit that other modes of training are also important and valuable. That is what I disagree with, and why I grow tired of seeing him say the same thing over and over and over. But if you enjoy hearing him say the same thing over and over and not acknowledge anyone else's points that may contradict his mantra, well then you just go right on ahead and read his every post! ;)

I have never said other forms of training aren't important or useful. Of course they are. Your problem is you want to discuss application or how wing chun is used in fighting and dont like it when I point out that this is idle arm chair speculation on your part since you are not doing it. I suppose you do get tired if me saying that just as I get tired of your endless idle arm chair speculation.

[EternalSpring]

I honestly think that almost any style is good to mix w/ with Ving Tsun, although I wont deny that they're not all the same for each person because, for certain people, mixing with certain systems/styles will work better.

All this ultimately goes back to my belief that Ving Tsun was made by masters of multiple arts. Some spend time talking about White Crane and Emei snake as being some sort of door to true Ving Tsun knowledge, I think we should just train everything we can. I've been cross training Xing Yi and Cheng Bagua for about 2 years, as well as some JKD and Silat and a few months of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and Muay Thai that I started this past Jan and hopefully will continue every semester I'm back at school. Honestly, they all mixed with my Ving Tsun well.

I think some people worry that cross training will make their Ving Tsun seem incomplete and thus they dont cross train in anything because they dont want to "disgrace their art." IMHO, it's usually not the art that is incomplete, it's the practitioner. Go out and experience the best of everything you can. The best thing to mix w/ Ving Tsun is more knowledge and experience.

[Faux Newbie]

I actually have one recommendation on a style that would be absolutely the best to mix with Wing Chun.

I know most of you are going to guess BJJ, or wrestling, or MMA. But no it's not any of these.

What style would be best to mix?

A "sense of humor" style. Especially when looking in the mirror. I think an engine built on that will lift you up far above other engines. I mean that engine would even withstand Obasi grabbing your wrists during chi sau and posting the vid on the internets.

Not so sure about these other engines.

The above post, while funny beyond belief, is still not the true sense of humor style. This is because of it's lack of three stooges eye pokes. The true sense of humor stylist is too deadly for the forum.

[wtxs]

Nothing!

As soon as you start adding things to VT it is no longer VT. If you think VT is lacking in certain areas then why not just go to an MMA club where they cover all bases?

The main reason people add things to the system is because their VT is flawed and they can't make it work. If you add BJJ then why not add more? When will it end? Maybe add some firearm work into the system.

The secret 6th form of Ving Tsun.................an oozi 9mm :D:rolleyes:

... and Mac10 in .45 with hi-cap mag ...

[trubblman]

I would like to hear what others opinions are on this subject, as I have been debating and researching as to what other fighting style would be a good advantage to have in this modern day! I read Bjj is great to add, and I have been researching to see what options are there that matches and flows with WC. I would love to hear others opinions on this subject. :)

Yes, I do. I am learning Kali.

[Eric_H]

I would like to hear what others opinions are on this subject, as I have been debating and researching as to what other fighting style would be a good advantage to have in this modern day! I read Bjj is great to add, and I have been researching to see what options are there that matches and flows with WC. I would love to hear others opinions on this subject. :)

I've tried a number of arts along with my WC. I've found that BJJ is a good mix because there's not much overlap, less confusing of the body mechanics and what have you.

Any weapon style is also a great add, really makes you consider space differently. I've had luck with Wudang Saber, a few friends of mine really like Escrima.

[Minghequan]

SKM Wrote:

Wing Chun dovetails nicely with Tibetan White Crane. The attack hands are the same and SLT is a nice, short bridge form for training the eating crane fist.

That's a pretty broad analogy. I've had some training in the Pak Hok of the Tibetan Style and largely saw mid to long range hand forms expressed. When talking White Crane & Wing Chun you are getting into the less mid, more close range aspect and expressions of technique and energetics, far more fluid and very much a smaller movement than Tibetan Pak Hok. The SNT as a "bridge form" for Shihequan??? Sorry don't see that at all. Shihequan is somewhat external within White Crane and SNT is internal.

SKM, What training and exposure have you had to SNT and Eating Crane?

[Miguel]

BJJ is a great addition to training Wing Chun because imo WC is very open to take-downs, if you think otherwise then share your opinion after sparring with someone who is good at BJJ because it's gonna change :)

[jhexx]

Thanks to everyone who has stated their opinions as to what other styles would be good to cross train with, I truly appreciate it very much. Thank you! :D