Shaolin loves BJJ

[Mojo]

Check out what Master Wong Kiew Kit thinks of BJJ.

In my opinion, jujitsu is the best of the non-Chinese martial arts. Unlike many other martial arts which are restricted to one category of attacks -- like strikes in western boxing, kicks in taekwondo, and throws in jud -- jujitsu is all-round. It is graceful as well as forceful. And its training is not detrimental to health, compared to, for example, the untreated injuries sustained in karate or kickboxing training. I cannot think of any weakness in jujitsu.
Jujitsu masters have done very well in international price-fighting competitions. They got their opponents to the ground, applied arm locks or neck locks on them, and won handsomely -- without any tincture of crudeness or brutality that is not uncommon in many other martial arts.
Yet, their victory was due to their "kung", although their techniques were excellent. It was not that their opponents did not know how to neutralize their locks, but because they had executed their locks so skilfully that despite knowing the counter-techniques, their opponents could not free themselves.

This is from...
http://www.geocities.com/wahnam/ans-2001b/nov01-3.html

..............................
The Dude: Fortunately, I'm adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug, uh, regimen to keep my mind, you know, uh, limber.

[Shaolindynasty]

Most of us Kungfu guys feel this way but you have a few UFC wannabe's running around who insult us and make us defensive. I personally think JJ is a great art but it isn't the only one. Most JJ guys respect other arts but like I said there are a few "punks" running wild.


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[Kung Lek]

bjj is not JJJ, Wong Kiew Kit is talking about the japanese art and not the "brawling gracies slugfest" version of it.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[qeySuS]

i thought you were gonna talk about the BJJ Wizard and Mundials champion "Shaolin" :)

Free thinkers are dangerous!

[Mojo]

Kung Lek
I disagree. He shows he's talking about BJJ when he says it has done very well in international price(sic)-fighting, and that they take their opponents to the ground and then aplies locks. I know Japanese JJ has this butto me it's clear he's refering to BJJ. What JJJ champs have been winning international prize fighting ?

..............................
The Dude: Fortunately, I'm adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug, uh, regimen to keep my mind, you know, uh, limber.

[Kung Lek]

there's more to international competition than bjj dude.

where have you been? ufc and nhb are pretty much western. there are plenty of prize fights in the rest of the world and even in places where bjj has not been heard of and where jujitsu has been around for ages.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[fightfan]

Very interesting article!
BTW it sound like he's talking about BJJ not JJJ.

[Xebsball]

Hmm, i belive its about Bjj he talks.
I love this guys site, i always wait for updates and stuff.

BTW, i'm still trying to find out why that Bjj guy have the nickname "Shaolin". One time i asked on mixedmartialarts on the portuguese forum and no one could answer. Well, at least he shaves his head, that could be one reason...

----------------------------
Friday evening / The blood still on my hands
To think that she would leave me now / For that ungrateful man

Sole survivor / No witness to the crime
I must act fast to cover up / I think that there's still time

He'd seem hopeless and lost with this note / They'll buy into the words that I wrote

"This feeling inside me
Finally found my love, I've finally broke free
No longer torn in two
I'd take my own life before losing you"

[Kung Lek]

:rolleyes:

well, I guess you guys will colour it however you like with "sounds like" and "seems like" but he never once mentions bjj, and only calls Jujitsu, jujitsu. Let's not forget that Wong Kiew Kit is in Malaysia and not in the west. He calls a spade a spade and so on. yada yada yada.

just the facts man, just the facts.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Mojo]

Kung Lek
Relax, you seem a little defensive. Don't be ashamed to admit you're wrong. :cool:

..............................
The Dude: Fortunately, I'm adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug, uh, regimen to keep my mind, you know, uh, limber.

[Kung Lek]

well, ok. but you first :D

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Wongsifu]

the truth is wong kiew kit doesnt really know there is a difference between jujitsu and and bjj per say he hears jujitsu wins the competitions and doesnt understand its bjj he thinks its normal japanese jujitsu
I mean he thinks karate is how we view it mcdojo style. one punch at a time .

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

[SantaClaus]

could the "brazillian" and the emphasis on groundfighting just be for marketing?

Could I make elbow kung fu, Concentrate only on elbows and call it, Colorado kung fu?

[Serpent]

You bloody bjj'ers! Always looking for validation aren't you.

He never once says Brazilian or aludes to it. He's a Malaysian guy who, like everybody else that's not American, doesn't believe that America is the centre of the universe. Therefore, all you guys talking about marketing, Bjj, etc. are just showing your national colours. Believe what you like, but he's obviously talking about Jujitsu in general. If you want to lump bjj in with that, then fine, but he's not talking about bjj specifically.

BJJ - Possibly the insecure sport art in the world! ;)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You cannot defeat the Bronze Girls of Shaolin!

[Kung Lek]

nOt to mention that the bjj that became gracie jj and so on was originally taught to Helio (and others) in its' original form as Japanese Jujitsu.

Only with the marketing pushiness of one Rorion Gracie did jujitsu all of a sudden become "brazillian jujitsu".

the deeper you go, the emptier it gets :D

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Xebsball]

Here no one calls it Brazilian JiuJitsu or Gracie JiuJitsu. People say just JiuJitsu... So yes, the brazilian could be marketing for USA.

----------------------------
Friday evening / The blood still on my hands
To think that she would leave me now / For that ungrateful man

Sole survivor / No witness to the crime
I must act fast to cover up / I think that there's still time

He'd seem hopeless and lost with this note / They'll buy into the words that I wrote

"This feeling inside me
Finally found my love, I've finally broke free
No longer torn in two
I'd take my own life before losing you"

[Pika]

Rorion trade marked the name Gracie Jiu Jitsu (much to his family members disapproval). The term Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is a general term referring to the modified fighting art developed by the Gracies in Brazil. It would include Machado Jiu Jitsu etc etc.

[Merryprankster]

Kung Lek,

C'mon... get your facts straight at least.

The Gracies learned JUDO, not classical JJJ. For whatever reason, they chose then to train and refine the groundwork rather than throwing.

The competition rules and evolution of the two arts have diverged sufficiently that I believe they are seperate entities, although some will insist that BJJ is just "Judo without the throws." They are welcome to that opinion. I really don't care much either way.

From this was born what in the US is called BJJ. Stabbingash, calling it BJJ isn't a marketing "ploy." It's a way to distinguish it from JJJ... or should we call all styles of Kung Fu "Kung Fu?" Not very helpful, is it?

I know it's just called jiujitsu in Brazil, but that wouldn't help distinguish it in the US at all.

[Kung Lek]

No merry, helio learned jujitsu.
read his story.

Kano created judo from jujitsu, thus the similarities, but it was jujitsu that helio was taught.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Merryprankster]

No sir, he did NOT learn classical JJJ.

The Gracies learned JUDO from Mitsuyo Maeda. Maeda did not study JJJ. He may have been exposed to it, in much the same way that I have been exposed to boxing, but he did not study it.

Mitsuyo Maeda was a Judoka through and through.

Here is a review of a biography on Maeda.

Maeda Biography Review (http://www.bjj.org/interviews/maeda.html)

Oh, and as a side note, most of us BJJers aren't looking for validation... we've already got it in the form of BJJers with MMA victories and personal wins on the competition circuits. That said, there are some BJJer's who will continue to spout the crap about BJJ being the end all be all. The same can be said of some wing chunners though so... que sera!

[This message was edited by Merryprankster on 11-21-01 at 08:11 PM.]

[brassmonkey]

The fact that he spells it "jujitsu" and not "jujutsu" makes it very clear he's referring to Brazillian Jujitsu as the classical Japanese styles would be spelled Jujutsu.

[Chang Style Novice]

Yeah, if he actually wrote it and it wasn't transcribed by someone else.

As far as I can see, we don't have enough info.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

[fightfan]

Awwww c'mon guys, how the hell would JJJ be the art they are discussing in this paragraph???

"Jujitsu masters have done very well in international price-fighting competitions. They got their opponents to the ground, applied arm locks or neck locks on them, and won handsomely -- without any tincture of crudeness or brutality that is not uncommon in many other martial arts."

BJJ is fought at "price-fighting competitions" all over the world. Brazil, Japan, USA, Mexico, Europe, Saudi Arabia, Russia, and Im sure there are many more places.
What kind of "price-fighting competitions" does JJJ win "handsomely" in?
Contrary to what peaple believe BJJ truly is a soft art. A choke out or a submission isnt going to be considered "brutality" unless the guy doesnt tap!
Since when is the gameplan for JJJ to " got their opponents to the ground, applied arm locks or neck locks on them"???
BTW no matter where BJJ came from, Helio Gracie disected and reinvented it so that it would work for his skinny, weak frame making it totally different from anything else. My favorite quote from Helio is "Give me leverage and I can lift the world". I believe thats just what he did.
I notice that there are quite a few peaple on here that, for some reason, hate BJJ and cant stand to hear anything positive about it so they try to bring it down. To me those are the "insecure" ones.
Peace

[KnightSabre]

Why can't some of you accept that a kung fu master has good things to say about BJJ?
The only JJJ guy that I can think of that did well in NHB is Remco Pardoel,he was an all European champ and even though he had 77 pounds on Royce he still got beaten by him.

"You're Good Kid Real Good,But As Long As I'm Arround You'll Always Be Second Best See".

[Kaitain(UK)]

no - people here don't hate BJJ

generally they hate the mouthy, ego-fluffing, big-headed practitioners who ride on the back of the hard-earned achievements of the top BJJ fighters. The fact that these mouthy eejits usually have the following traits:
- have trained less than 2 years, only in BJJ (if at all)
- have never competed
- possess only the first 5 UFC videos
explains the attitude

For the most part that has been the representation of BJJ on this forum - there are a few exceptions who come here to discuss various topics and help educate us in the finer points of grappling. They tend to have the following traits:
- have trained longer than they care to remember, in a few other arts before they came to BJJ
- have competed
- know a lot about the top flight competitors beyond the Gracie family
- are respectful of others

I'm in no way categorising anyone in this thread - just explaining the prevailing attitudes here.

Final note on this - for the most part, being 'positive about BJJ' is generally packaged in a thread that read "Kung-fu sucks, yada yada yada, so does every other martial art, yada yada yada, BJJ is superior because it wins in the ring, yada yada yada". Positive about BJJ is rarely seperated from negative about everything else on this forum.

ON TOPIC - the quote talks about the well-rounded art of JuJitsu. BJJ is not a well-rounded art - the leading practitioners all acknowledge this (Royce proves it every time he kicks :)). So the guy has either taken the BJJ victories and lumped them in with JJ, OR he is talking about some other competition circuit (lord knows what) where JJJ succeeds. Either way he isn't coming across as particularly well-informed about BJJ/JJJ.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Nichiren]

I have read that BJJ is almost identical to original Koodokan Judo, before the competition aspect was added. I don't remember where I read it but it was an article on Jigiro Kano and his fighters who totally destroyed the JJ practitioners in Japan during an event(very famous).

[scotty1]

Kaitan (UK)'s opinion about BJJ and its representation on this forum seems to me to be spot on. While we're all here, the main differences between BJJ and JJ are... :confused:

[MartialKnight]

Dude, you can't quote different parts of a work and smoosh 'em together like that.

It'll be easier to just follow your link, but here's what Wong Kiew Kit says after the first paragraph you posted:

"Nevertheless, jujitsu does not have the great advantage of internal force and solid stances that great kungfu like Shaolin or Taijiquan has. Indeed, looking back at my sparring and actual fightings in the past, it was internal force and solid stance more than anything else that helped me come out of the combat unhurt.

But the greatest advantage Shaolin or Taijiquan has over jujitsu is in spiritual development. Basically jujitsu is a great fighting art, but Shaolin and Taijiquan can lead their practitioners to the highest spiritual attainment."

This I'll post for fun (follows where the last line in the above post left off):

"What would happen if a jujitsu master got a Shaolin or Taijiquan master onto the ground and applied an arm lock or neck lock on him?

In the first place, the Shaolin or Taijiquan master would not allow the jujitsu master get him onto the ground. To be so would be a case of Shaolin or Taijiquan at its weakest matching jujitsu at its strongest.

So, if it were a real fight of life and death, as soon as the jujitsu master moved in to grap his waist or legs to bring him onto the ground, the Shaolin or Taijiquan master would call forth his strongest points -- his solid stance and internal force. He would sink down his stance to neutralize the throw and, if necessary, smash his palm with internal force onto the attacker's head, killing or maiming him -- reminding us, unfortunately, the brutality of life-death combat. Shaolin and Taijiquan masters are generally compassionate. So the master might strike the opponent's shoulder instead, fracturing or dislocating it.

But, what would happen if the jujitsu master succeeded in getting the Shaolin or Taijiquan master onto the ground. This would be a good example of the jujitsu master winning the situation because of superior "kung" although his technique was inferior. On the ground, it would also be "kung" that would decide the victor.

Technically speaking, at least two limbs are needed to effectively lock one limb, hence leaving the opponent's other limb free. So while the jujitsu master locked the Shaolin or Taijiquan master's arm or neck -- which would take a few seconds to be effectively implemented -- the latter would use his free hand to jab into the former's side, and pulled out a rib. This was possible if the Shaolin or Taijiquan master had sufficient "kung" to penetrate the jujitsu master's side. If the former's "kung" was lacking, his arm or neck would be broken."

[Reima Kostaja]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
bjj is not JJJ, Wong Kiew Kit is talking about the japanese art and not the "brawling gracies slugfest" version of it.
[/quote]

:rolleyes: LOL at Kung Lek's BJJ hating sillyness.

I remember Royce winning the first UFC's with superior technique without "slugging" his opponents unconsious.

BTW, I read that Maeda called his art jujitsu in brazil because kodokan judo didnt allow price fighting.

[Merryprankster]

Kostaja,

That's correct. I'd forgotten that.

Bottom Line-- the man was a Judoka. Unfortunately, I can't fly out to the Kodokan to check their records, but that's what he was. Nobody really argues the point that he was Judo. In fact, this has led to some very heated debates on the Sambo and Judo Q & A forum on mixedmartialarts.com about whether or not BJJ is just a groundwork specialized version of Judo.

As far as BJJ being what Kodokan Judo was before WWII that is both true and not true. BJJ has a wider range of legal submissions, that were common to Judo before the war. However, even Jigoro Kano believed that the primary emphasis of Judo should be on throwing. I believe he suggested 80% standing and 20% groundwork or something to that effect. I don't see that in BJJ at all. I would say that I spend MORE than 80% of my time on the ground.

[Wongsifu]

could i just repeat what i said , wong kiew kit was referring to bjj but he was describing jjj as being good . hence why he say sit is better than judo

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

[Kung Lek]

merry, maeda was a classical jujutsu player and this is what he taught Carlos, Helio and the other first generation brothers.

I have nothing against Gracies styles.I think they have a great style that is highly effective, but I also have to add that gracie Jujitsu (spelling doesn't matter from east to west)is far superior to BJJ anyday of teh week and I'm sure teh Gracies don't want to have their style mixed in with that stuff.
In fact the Gracie's themselves have a problem with the pollution of jujutsu in brazil with every fraud and phony making a sham of the art. by the way, here's a snippet for ya and I quote

"It is his son Gastão Gracie, who was the father of Carlos Gracie and who arranged for Carlos to study classical Japanese Jiu-Jitsu with the former Japanese champion, Mitsuyo Maeda (known in Brazil as Conde Koma, the "Count of Combat")."

This is a comment concerning George Gracie the Father of the whole clan who emigrated from Scotland.

So, I think I'll be taking the facts from the Gracies before I take em from someone here on the forum.


peace all you "otherground trollers"

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[Merryprankster]

Jesus!

The man they learned from was a JUDOKA. Which part of entered the Kodokan at 18 wasn't clear?

You think GJJ and BJJ are DIFFERENT? They aren't. Not at all. GJJ is a MARKETING term used by Rorion Gracie and Torrance Academy affiliates. Legally, nobody else can use that to market BJJ. Rickson, for instance cannot market GJJ... he CAN market Rickson Gracie Jiujitsu.

As far as some sort of "difference," in the styles it simply doesn't exist.

It's not "the Gracies themselves." It's Helio and Rorion, and until recently, possibly Royce (who split from TA recently). Carlson doesn't have a problem with "pollution," Renzo doesn't have a problem with "pollution," Rickson doesn't have a problem with "pollution."

Look, Helio and Rorion have done some fairly amazing things, both personally and from a business perspective, but that does not make their word law.

Bruce Lee did some fairly amazing things, both personally and from a business perspective, does that mean that Kung Fu is a classical mess?

Do the research. I have. The preponderance of evidence points to a Judoka who taught the Gracies, regardless of what it was called. Gracie JJ is no different than BJJ. I'm sorry, but I don't just "take the Gracie's word for it."

So don't take mine either. Do the research.

[shinwa]

I have an interview with Royce and he says that Gracie Jujitsu is pretty much the same as japanese jujitsu except he says they simply added more spices here nd there. Differences in training and so forth. So I too believe that they originally learned Jujitsu.

[fightfan]

A very wise man once said
" I told him to forget it because he could not learn anything if he thought he knew everything already." =)
I couldnt think of a better time to use that quote!

BTW MartialKnight, since were having so much "fun" what do you think of this quote? You seem to have overlooked it. lol
"Kungfu is a great martial art, but most kungfu students, including those who have won international competitions, cannot use their kungfu tefchniques for fighting. Muai thai is simple -- but not easy, yet most muai thai exponents are good fighters."

[Xebsball]

The Gracies say he was a JiuJitsu guy, it was just masked as Judo like they say it happened to many other JiuJitsu guys so that westerners were not taught the real thing. If thats true or not i dont know, but thats whtat the Gracies say.

----------------------------
When you are surrounded by kids, enlighten them with Bruce Lee quotes.
They will love you and honor you for that.

[Xebsball]

More stuff...
The Gracies know the stand up locks from JJJ that are definatly not in Judo and they still teach it, at least the ones that come from Helio. Do you think they reinvented this locks? No, they learned it from Maeda.

----------------------------
When you are surrounded by kids, enlighten them with Bruce Lee quotes.
They will love you and honor you for that.

[Xebsball]

3 posts in a row, wow!

For those that think that people in Asia execpt Japan never heard of BJJ might be wrong:

http://www.sanshou.net/info-eng.htm
Scroll down there is some stuff about BJJ, its in chinese...

----------------------------
When you are surrounded by kids, enlighten them with Bruce Lee quotes.
They will love you and honor you for that.

[Merryprankster]

Eh,

whatever. I guess it's really no skin off my back where it came from :) When it gets down to it, I suppose it just doesn't matter much!

[Xebsball]

Sure, none of this will change your training. The stuff you learn is relevant the rest is details. :)

----------------------------
When you are surrounded by kids, enlighten them with Bruce Lee quotes.
They will love you and honor you for that.

[Merryprankster]

You got it :)

I personally still don't think it stems from JJJ, but that really doesn't matter much, does it?

[MartialKnight]

I also seem to remember this guy saying he could move clouds with his qi. Lol.

Here is a quote from a legit Kung Fu master (Yang Tai Chi, White Crane, and Long Fist) Yang Jwing-Ming:

“With the intimate involvement of Kung Fu in Chinese culture, one fact becomes extreme important. Kung Fu, like Chinese culture, is over three thousand years old. During those three thousand years every possible aspect of martial theory and technique has veen exposed, developed, and practiced. This long history of practical development has made Kung Fu the most complete system of martial arts in existence. The long history of Kung Fu is a great asset since those thousands of years have seen a continual growth in theory and technique. To reject three thousand years of experience is to reject everything of proven value.”

As for Thai Boxing, I would discourage you from taking up Thai boxing because they do a lot of body conditioning that is effective but painful and probably your life ... so much for self-defence, eh? Also, most Thai boxers are retired by the time they reach mid 30’s, and usually end up in wheel chairs.


I'm here in Virgina, I've been in fights, I've used martial arts, traditional at that.
All styles have two things in common. "Attack" and "defend". That is what makes all styles equal. It will always ultimately come down to the fighters and to circumstances during the fight.
Any technique can work in the right situation. It's just a basic fact man! If you don't see the kick coming and it catches you in the chin, you're on the freakin floor. Bottomline. You put too much emphasis on style and not enough on individuals. There are TONS of people who will tell you traditional kung Fu is useless, tons more will say the same about karate, others will say the same about Boxing, others will say it about Jujitsu. You can't dictate how a Wushu dude will react to a punch, you can't dictate how a traditional stylist will reatc to the wushu guys punch, you can't dictate anything.

Whats the point? Train in what you believe in and go as far with it as you can. But I guarantee you. Lots of people disagree with me, I know that. Half of the time is because they're trying to advance they're own agenda. Me? I have no agenda. Nor do I really care.


The template for military self-defense on both the mainlaind and Taiwan is hsing-i as it provides the necessary essentials that can be learnt in a short period of time and can be built on over time.

[Merryprankster]

I am quite familiar with a 50 year old plus guy who had a pro fighting career in Thailand, and last time I checked, he had more energy than a 3 year old on speed.

So much for winding up in a wheel chair....

[fightfan]

MartialKnight,
lots of peaple may disagree with you, but Im not one of them, well at least not this time ;).
I guess anybody can get defensive when peaple try to put a negative spin on something you love 99% of the time they speak. There are a few here on both sides of the coin. Bottom line is a disrespectful jerk is a disrespectful jerk, no matter what art they study.
For the record, Ive liked Kung Fu ever since I was a little kid. I wouldnt be here if I didnt.

[Merryprankster]

fightfan,

Great post!

[Serpent]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fightfan:

My favorite quote from Helio is "Give me leverage and I can lift the world". I believe thats just what he did.

[/quote]

Do me a favour! Is there nothing that the Gracies won't try to steal?! That may have been said by Helio at some point, but it's not his quote. Try doing a little history research (and you'll need to go back several hundred years!)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You cannot defeat the Bronze Girls of Shaolin!

[shinwa]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'm here in Virgina, I've been in fights, I've used martial arts, traditional at that.
All styles have two things in common. "Attack" and "defend". That is what makes all styles equal. It will always ultimately come down to the fighters and to circumstances during the fight.
Any technique can work in the right situation. It's just a basic fact man! If you don't see the kick coming and it catches you in the chin, you're on the freakin floor. Bottomline. You put too much emphasis on style and not enough on individuals. There are TONS of people who will tell you traditional kung Fu is useless, tons more will say the same about karate, others will say the same about Boxing, others will say it about Jujitsu. You can't dictate how a Wushu dude will react to a punch, you can't dictate how a traditional stylist will reatc to the wushu guys punch, you can't dictate anything.

Whats the point? Train in what you believe in and go as far with it as you can. But I guarantee you. Lots of people disagree with me, I know that. Half of the time is because they're trying to advance they're own agenda. Me? I have no agenda. Nor do I really care.[/quote]

How the hell did my post from The Jet li boards end up here? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[BAI HE]

"brawling gracies slugfest"

Like Royce getting the she*e*t
punched out of him by Sak?

[Fish of Fury]

yeah, my other favourite quote from Helio is when he said "let there be light" and there was light.

and that book he wrote.y'know, the one that starts
"it was the best of times, it was the worst of times"

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

[Kung Lek]

Hey there you super friends, I suggest you actually visit the Gracie's website and send them an e-mail and ask them personally what's it all about. They are very friendly guys and will answer pretty much any question you have regarding their history or style.

As will Wong Kiew Kit, who is also a very nice gentlemen that will personally reply to your queries.


peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[brassmonkey]

Kung Lek your fighting a losing battle its accepted in the MMA community that the Gracie Family learned Judo which is derived from a couple different styles of Jujutsu. Even the diehard Gracie Zombies who so vehemontly defended that the Gracies learned Jujitsu now admit he learned Judo along with other such nonsense such as the Gracies inventing the guard. Brazillian Jujitsu apart from Kodokan places a greater emphasis on newaza. I wouldn't go by what the Gracies say so much you have to remember up until about a year ago on the Gracie Torrance website(Rorion, Royce) stated that the Gracies had been undfeated generation after generation!! When in fact they won an amazing amount of challenges each generation they were consistenly beaten each generation.

[Kung Lek]

yeah, they have a great photo of helio getting whupped and planted on their site. :D

they got a lot of cajones, and you can't take it away from them. they have probably won more challenge matches than they have lost by anyones recollection. you can't take that away from them either.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

[jjj]

Haha! Kung Lek put his foot in his mouth this time lol...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It's not really NHB because they won't let me bring a platoon of Navy SEAL's with Blackhawk fire support into the ring!"
-Watchman

[Merryprankster]

Exactly Kung Lek! Even if you aren't sure you like them, you can't knock 'em. Tough family.

But hey, as far as origins, I'm sorry I even got sucked into the argument.... it's just not important when you get down to it :)