Response to the Thai clinch, aka double neck tie

[Pipefighter]

I was having a problem with a particular sparring partner who had impressive skill and strength in tying me up in his Thai clinch. No matter my counter, it fed in to his response. I asked my teacher if he had a good response for that. He told me to use the headlock immediately. It worked very well. So far I have had only success using the headlock in response to the Thai clinch and haven't seen a counter response to the headlock at that moment.
I'm wondering if anybody knows a good counter for when you have applied the clinch, and then are caught with one arm inside the basket of a headlock?

[lkfmdc]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4j4V_6KnGs

[lkfmdc]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTfq_nEaPkA

[lkfmdc]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCK_0Tk1XbE

[Pipefighter]

Cool video. I wish i had one to illustrate what my response is, but i don't have video of anything.
In my situation i had used basically every one of those responses, but my training partner was more experienced with MT clinching, and stronger. I initially did the break to a drag by, he of course countered with a drag by and we were back to square one. I broke and did a russian, he rose up and pushed my head down into a front choke. I countered with a MT clinch, then so did he, then so did I untill i was tired and stopped. I tried the snap down, pull, twist method ala JKD/Burmese style, he didnt budge. I simply broke the clinch, but we were back to square one. So after a few days of that my Teacher told me to use the Shuai Chiao headlock immediately. That put an end to MT clinching. Since then i find that when my opponent has full sized gloves on the headlock works even better since he cant get his arm out at all.

I'm wondering, if someone countered your Thai clinch with a headlock, what would your response be from there

[Kellen Bassette]

I'm wondering, if someone countered your Thai clinch with a headlock, what would your response be from there

I think I'll work this when training Thai clinch this week to see how I like it.

[GoldenBrain]

Hey Pipefighter,

I'm not sure if you're talking about a front headlock with arm in or from the side, but here are two methods that you could use to counter those. If from the side, then just step behind with the closest foot and use your inside trapped arm which is in front of the opponent to push them back which will sweep them off their feet. This is one way to apply a single whip in Taiji.

Below is a wrestling technique to deal with a front arm in headlock. The counter starts at about 1:05 into the video.

Personally I like to throw people trying to use a MT clinch on me. Two throws I like are Seoi Nage and a Shuai Chaio pulling throw. If I'm locked in tight then I go right into a wrestling clinch with one hand on the back of the neck and the other on the forearm while bringing my hips forward to stall out the MT clinch, or at the very least to keep me from taking a big knee. I'll use various techniques from there such as what David demonstrates. I also like some of the techniques in this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EEx7rnsiHw&feature=youtu.be&t=1m1s


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2JXGsP4DWk

[GoldenBrain]

About 7 to 8 mins into this video you can see some Seoi Nage throws to counter the MT clinch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO5LV71AL4M

[GoldenBrain]

Here's something I found demonstrating a Shuai Chiao pulling throw.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gibD8YtktgI

[Pipefighter]

I wasn't reffering to snapping the guy down into a front headlock. I think if a guy has strong arms there is no way you could pull him down while he has both hands behind your neck. I' talking about a standing headlock, but dont let his hands come loose from your neck. Headlock around his clinch.

The throw in the second video if done in a freestyle match would be called a Jap Wizzer, and the execution was about spot on exactly how a freestyle wrestler would do it. Closer to the 8 min mark in the video the problem with that throw arises. The blue guy pulls and drops, the red guy pushes his hips in and resists and the blue guy falls. I suppose a BJJ guy would be looking for a rear naked at that moment. In Shuai Chiao if he stayed standing and pulled straight over the top of his shoulder that is usually called Bowing. Pulling him around the body is called Pulling.

The Shuai Chiao clip of Pulling is a valid response, but not the one i was referring to. A decent counter to pulling if it is against a MT clinch is to take your left elbow and drive it down into his right shoulder as he tries to break your elbow structure sideways with his shoulder. Turing your wrist outward just a bit at that moment helps to strengthen your structure while he snaps through with his shoulder.
But i still haven't seen a response to the headlock done against a MT clinch

[GoldenBrain]

Cool. I thought you were talking about a standing headlock, but I just wanted to clarify. I'm a bit OCD like that. :D Since I'm not familiar with using a standing headlock to counter the MT clinch I'd love to see a video of it. I want to make sure I understand it more before I try it out and possibly add it to my bag of tricks. I know you said you don't have one of your own, but maybe you could find and post a clip of somebody else doing it. I looked around for quite a while and couldn't find one. Also, even though you don't have a counter to the standing headlock yet, do you have a follow up once it's acquired? I'm thinking a simple hip toss might be in order.

By the way, if nobody else has said it yet, welcome to the forum!

[Pipefighter]

Thank You! I don't think there are any video's of that on the net. But if one get's made i'll post it if i find it.

And yes, once you get that lock there are a few ways to finish it, depending on your overall intent.

[bawang]

the easiest is bearhug dry hump then reap.

you can also learn how to clinch and make it your own.

[Pipefighter]

I will try and post a pic if i can get one so no one will have to imagine what i'm talking about by description.

With the headlock over a clinch like i mean there would be no way to get to a bear hug. The guys i have used it on are all familiar with a bear hug and strong enough to pull it off. I just don't think that is an option

[bawang]

do u train ur neck good

worst case scenario if u cant out tech him add special exercises address weak muscle groups

[Kellen Bassette]

do u train ur neck good

worst case scenario if u cant out tech him add special exercises address weak muscle groups

Traditional MT trains hanging a weight from the neck and lifting it, (or you can let a child hand off your neck in clinch position.)
Also tying a weight to a rope and lifting with the rope clenched between your teeth and the jaw tightened.

[Alex Córdoba]

The whole video is nice but watch it from minute 30:15


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5E1AHeS9Pw

[Pipefighter]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIE7SWoyTEI

This move.
Headlock around MT clinch. Will try and post some different angles if available.

Anybody have a good counter to this move if applied with full power?

[GoldenBrain]

I get it now. I just call this a wrestlers clinch. It's a little deeper than with just one hand cupped around the back of the neck but the counter should be the same. This might be hard to explain but I'll try so go easy on me.

The guy on the left needs to turn his head to his right so they are both cheek to cheek and facing the same direction. Then the guy on the left works for a bear hug while using his left leg to step deep between the legs of the guy on the right. The guy on the left sort of walks it forward a little and then pulls down while circling to the right to get the takedown. Even though the guy on the left has his right arm trapped he should still be able to reach his forearm over the top of the elbow of the guy on the right and since he is in a headlock his left arm will be able to reach way behind. Grab behind using a gable or s grip.

This clinch is a good technique. You have many directions to go from there. I'll enjoy reading others opinions on a counter to this clinch.

Edit: What I posted above needs to be done super quick, especially forcing the leg between the other guys so it'll block the hip toss or sweep from the guy applying the headlock.

[Pipefighter]

I follow you. Basically, your saying, at first turn with the head locking arm to slip your arm out and free it so you could counter it like it is a normal headlock, in essence. Correct if I'm wrong.

From this angle it is a bit hard to see what's going on with the far arm. In that earlier shuai chiao clip doing a pulling throw against a MT clench, notice how the guy doing the pulling throw pushes his shoulder in to get the opponents elbow to angle in? That same thing is happening with this headlock, however, using only the shoulder doesn't have much momentum or angle for leverage. Using the headlock in a haymaker style sweep around the head forces the opponents elbow inward while trapping the hand with your own neck/head. The pressure on that shoulder is very noticeable. If he is wearing full sized gloves and you like him you want to be cautious how hard you twist because that hand is seriously trapped.

If the opponent is standing more upright and straight armed the head locking part is less crucial since you can just throw him with out as tight of a headlock. This type of headlock attack i needed for when a guy is very strong and using a clinch to throw you down or drag your nose into his forehead. The video clip is a demo, not using full power. I haven't seen anybody else really use it, but i have found it to be a completely effective response to a very powerful MT clinch, or double neck tie.

[Alex Córdoba]

Anybody have a good counter to this move if applied with full power?

Have you seen the video I posted? That's the way thais counter the clinch, you can see it in many MT fights.

[GoldenBrain]

I follow you. Basically, your saying, at first turn with the head locking arm to slip your arm out and free it so you could counter it like it is a normal headlock, in essence. Correct if I'm wrong.

You're right, that's what my tired end of the day brain was working to explain. :D

The clench you have is really tight so that's all I have right now until I play with it a bit during sparring.

[Pipefighter]

Have you seen the video I posted? That's the way thais counter the clinch, you can see it in many MT fights.

I watched all the clips posted. I didn't see anyone in the clip throw a hard headlock or a MT guy respond to that headlock. I really don't try to clinch with a guy at this point, other than to practice. I use a headlock when my opponent uses a clinch.

I have found this to completely successful in stopping a Thai clinch, and high % for getting the throw if i use it on a striker or MMA guy. It's a headlock and then a throw.
But i don't want to put overconfidence in a move if there is a counter to it in some art that i don't know. Also, i think this is a good move for guys who know the headlock to use if they cross train with MT or MMA or San Da guys who use that clinch.

So my question is about countering the headlock when it is done around a clinch

[Frost]

I watched all the clips posted. I didn't see anyone in the clip throw a hard headlock or a MT guy respond to that headlock. I really don't try to clinch with a guy at this point, other than to practice. I use a headlock when my opponent uses a clinch.

I have found this to completely successful in stopping a Thai clinch, and high % for getting the throw if i use it on a striker or MMA guy. It's a headlock and then a throw.
But i don't want to put overconfidence in a move if there is a counter to it in some art that i don't know. Also, i think this is a good move for guys who know the headlock to use if they cross train with MT or MMA or San Da guys who use that clinch.

So my question is about countering the headlock when it is done around a clinch

firstly that's not a Thai clinch its some guy hanging off your neck, there is a big difference between those two things your opponent isn't controlling your neck properly or the space with his elbows, he isn't moving you around or throwing strikes he is basically grabbing your neck badly and waiting for you to do your thing secondly reach around anyone with a half decent clinch game like that and they will abandon the Thai clinch slip under your arm (as the elbow is high) bodylock and take you for a ride
there is a good reason why none of those clips show anything like what you are talking about

[lkfmdc]

Personally, I find head locks sort of stupid and low level.. they frequently just don't work

In a double neck tie/muay thai position, you won't get a head lock on me...

there are numerous other reasons that head locks don't work, I grabbed about a minute from one of my DVD's on why


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR7ogkvSxeg&feature=youtu.be

[Pipefighter]

firstly that's not a Thai clinch its some guy hanging off your neck,

You realize that video clip is an excerpt from a shuai chiao demo. In shuai chiao if you stand straight up like a Thai fighter you are virtually defenseless against a number of trips/throws. It doesn't make sense to a SC guy to demo that move on a true Thai stance.
I know a Thai guy is standing upright, working for knees and elbows and not hanging off the neck, but i figured you could see the basic idea of the entry and try it.
I wasn't speculating when i described the headlock. I have effectively used it in MMA sparring, BJJ rolling, Sanda sparring, and other grappling venues. The MT clinch is obviously a part of more arts than just MT. I was intending to address it in a broad spectrum rather than just saying "in a Thai Kickboxing match against a Thai guy who is only dealing with Thai kickboxing intentions, rules, and forms..."

I only call it a MT clinch instead of a double neck tie because MT clinch is more commonly recognized across the board

[Pipefighter]

Personally, I find head locks sort of stupid and low level.. they frequently just don't work

In a double neck tie/muay thai position, you won't get a head lock on me...

Can you explain the mechanics for why not?

The headlock in your post is using hip throw footwork and making it a leverage throw, not a structure breaking throw. I agree that using the head to do a hip throw is generally ineffective at on reasonably trained guys. Also, that style of "headlock" entry leaves way to much time for your opponent to do early prevention. His head is stationary while your hips have to break the plane of his, then pop the throw. That makes you dynamic and gives him time to think. Even that style of throw doesn't move his head much, it moves his legs a lot. It isn't a dynamic throw. The headlock is a dynamic throw. But i don't consider that to be a headlock, but a hip throw using the head.

A headlock should hit the side of the neck like a freight train, bend the body sideways initially, not forward. And when i finish i don't pop with my hips. The opponents head is in continuous movement throughout the throw, which makes it more dynamic.

[Frost]

You realize that video clip is an excerpt from a shuai chiao demo. In shuai chiao if you stand straight up like a Thai fighter you are virtually defenseless against a number of trips/throws. It doesn't make sense to a SC guy to demo that move on a true Thai stance.
I know a Thai guy is standing upright, working for knees and elbows and not hanging off the neck, but i figured you could see the basic idea of the entry and try it.
I wasn't speculating when i described the headlock. I have effectively used it in MMA sparring, BJJ rolling, Sanda sparring, and other grappling venues. The MT clinch is obviously a part of more arts than just MT. I was intending to address it in a broad spectrum rather than just saying "in a Thai Kickboxing match against a Thai guy who is only dealing with Thai kickboxing intentions, rules, and forms..."

I only call it a MT clinch instead of a double neck tie because MT clinch is more commonly recognized across the board

ok show it working against a proper double neck tie, not a friend hanging of your neck who isnt moving you around, framing on you with his elbows and ragging your head around
and the response to your move i described is an MMA one not a thai one, a thai response would be to move the hand from your neck to control the bicep of the incoming arm and knee the crap out of your exposed ribs,
In MMA reach around anyone heads when they have a double neck tie on you and they will take your back and dump you, which is why you dont see the headlock response to th thai plum anywhere in MMA where you can do all the takedowns you are talking about in response to a good double neck tie,

[Pete]

Personally, I find head locks sort of stupid and low level.. they frequently just don't work

In a double neck tie/muay thai position, you won't get a head lock on me...

there are numerous other reasons that head locks don't work, I grabbed about a minute from one of my DVD's on why


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JR7ogkvSxeg&feature=youtu.be

nice, liking those vids :)

[Pipefighter]

ok show it working against a proper double neck tie, not a friend hanging of your neck who isnt moving you around, framing on you with his elbows and ragging your head around
and the response to your move i described is an MMA one not a thai one, a thai response would be to move the hand from your neck to control the bicep of the incoming arm and knee the crap out of your exposed ribs,
In MMA reach around anyone heads when they have a double neck tie on you and they will take your back and dump you, which is why you dont see the headlock response to th thai plum anywhere in MMA where you can do all the takedowns you are talking about in response to a good double neck tie,

If you haven't even taken the time to attempt the move one time and see what is happening, why should I take the time to give you a detailed explanation? Obviously you haven't gone through the motions of the move or you would know that the standard "head cirlcling/elbow pushing" into "rear embrace" will not work in that situation.
I don't search for a move that isn't there. If a guy is throwing knees to my ribs he is offering me his balance for free. getting a successful trip is effortless at that point if you spend most of your training time on trips and throws. Getting the headlock requires a lot of practice to learn the headlock first. But i bet there are a lot of guys who use the headlock on this site and maybe hadn't thought of using it around a double neck tie/clinch.
If you think that you are invulnerable to being thrown by a combat shuai chiao guy because your unbalancing ability is superior, your knees are too fast, and your knowledge of headlock counters is more exhaustive, then the last thing i want to do is change your mind!!:D:D:D;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here is how I do it and by it I mean work on a counter to a move:
I play the role of the attacker and my partner plays the role of the defender and I attack and I mean ATTACK and when he tries to counter by the move I THINK may work, I COUNTER THAT MOVE and if I can, well, that means it may not be as good a counter as I thought.
See, first rule of thumb is WILL THIS COUNTER WORK ON ME IF I WAS DOING THAT ATTACK?