Against "cross training"

[YouKnowWho]

Someone makes the following comments:

- The "cross training" takes away from concentrating on your core specialty.
- Being a specialist is quite common in our daily life.

Most

- long fist guys cross train praying mantis system.
- Baji guys cross train Pi Gua system.
- XingYi guys cross train Taiji system.

But most WC guys are against the idea of "cross training". Why?

[lkfmdc]

But most WC guys are against the idea of "cross training". Why?

Because they are stupid

Why do you think they call them Wing Chun dummies!

[Vajramusti]

Someone makes the following comments:

- The "cross training" takes away from concentrating on your core specialty.
- Being a specialist is quite common in our daily life.

Most

- long fist guys cross train praying mantis system.
- Baji guys cross train Pi Gua system.
- XingYi guys cross train Taiji system.

But most WC guys are against the idea of "cross training". Why?
-------------------------------------------------------
You don'tnow enough about wing chun- you comment on posts by people who
don'tknow enough about wing chun. Why do you comment on wing chun in a general forum?

[lkfmdc]

You don'tnow enough about wing chun



I think people who have been in the Chinese martial arts 20, 30, 40 years know plenty about Wing Chun





you comment on posts by people who don't know enough about wing chun.



ah, but here's the thing... according to those on the wing chun forum, no one knows.. well, of course, each poster thinks they know and everyone else doesn't know... Chinese martial arts is a dysfunctional family as it is, but Wing Chun is that secret cousin locked in the asylum that no one wants to talk about





Why do you comment on wing chun in a general forum?



why do you care? why do you take it so seriously?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=lkfmdc; ----------------------------------------------




why do you care? why do you take it so seriously?[/QUOTE]
----------------------------------------------------------------
Because a good art is widely misrepresented.

[SPJ]

Someone makes the following comments:

- The "cross training" takes away from concentrating on your core specialty.
- Being a specialist is quite common in our daily life.

Most

- long fist guys cross train praying mantis system.
- Baji guys cross train Pi Gua system.
- XingYi guys cross train Taiji system.

But most WC guys are against the idea of "cross training". Why?

Some would say that the body methods are different with each "style/school".

If you are into ba ji, you have to develop a strong horse stance and short burst power.

If you are into pi gua, you have to move about with your high horse stance, and develop long and crispy power.

It really depends your body build and preferences.

If you are into long fist, you stress long and extended posture and moves.

If you are into mantis, you need to develop short, intermediate and long power with fast steps and hand moves.

Of course, this is over generalization.

The big beef against cross train with multiple styles is that you need to be good at one before you move on to the next.

:)

[GoldenBrain]

Why do you think they call them Wing Chun dummies!

Ba-dum-tss! :D

[GoldenBrain]

I've never understood why some people are against cross training. Maybe they are simple and can't grasp more than one thing at a time. I don't know, but I'm all for cross training. Not only does it add to a persons bag of tricks, but at the very least it helps you understand how to deal with different styles of fighting.

For example; even though I can, I don't throw many kicks above the solar plexus, but that doesn't mean I don't want to learn how those kicks work. If I don't understand something fully then how in the world can I defend against it or counter it?

[Scott R. Brown]

If we look at some other physical activities we can see variations that qualify as cross training that appear to be pretty successful.

Gymnasts compete in multiple events demonstrating different skills. Dancers usually train in more than one form of dance. Decathletes and pentathletes train in different events utilizing different skills.

Warriors in Japan and and Europe trained in different weapons, not just one.

If a person trains kicks, strikes, throws, falls and few weapons, even within a defined Art, THAT is cross-training!

[YouKnowWho]

Why do you comment on wing chun in a general forum?

Because I like to hear opinions not only from WC guys but also from non-WC guys.

[Jimbo]

Cross-training IS traditional. All the true systems of MA we have today are a result of cross-training and the resulting evolution. Even if there were practitioners in the past who couldn't cross-train for whatever reasons (inability to be accepted for it, unavailability in their locale, or other difficulties), they would have if they could have. Most of the old CMA teachers I knew about knew at least two different systems.

I do feel it's good to develop a solid base in one art first. And there's nothing wrong with specializing in a favorite, or base art. For example, my base art for the past 21 years has been CLF, but all the MA experiences I gained prior to that and after are still with me and colors the way I do things.

Cross-training doesn't necessarily mean having to study 20 different arts, but rather experiencing through sparring exchanges, etc., and joining certain schools to train in. It may not be necessary for someone training a MA strictly for recreation, but if you want to be able to deal with different types of situations/opponents/styles of fighting (or at least have some idea), cross-training is an absolute necessity.

[Pipefighter]

WC is meant for "real" fighting and not for sport, yes?

If you were training for only one sport it would seem that sticking exclusively to one training from a master would help to excel in that sport, using those rules.

But combat really has no rules. So if you wanted to be a good combatant wouldn't cross training be the best way? Go to the best spear man, sword man, knife fighter, thrower, striker, hurdler, climber and learn what each views as essential. For combat isn't it better to develop a broader set of answers even if not the most advanced moves? Learn basics, learn them well.

That seems to be the tactic of most military and police outfits. And if a guy shows real potential in a specific area then push him to compete in that area.

If the art is Martial, isn't it important to try your self against other arts even before you are a master so you can improve before you cant afford to loose to another discipline?

[David Jamieson]

You need conditioning.

You need stamina.

You need strength.

You need speed.

None of these are trained in the same manner. There is no single way to cover all these and I don't care what that insanity guy says.

[Faux Newbie]

WC is meant for "real" fighting and not for sport, yes?

If you were training for only one sport it would seem that sticking exclusively to one training from a master would help to excel in that sport, using those rules.

Even within that context, most high level athletes have trained under a succession of qualified people. Olympic wrestlers more than likely trained under one coach in high school, different coaches in college, etc. Same with most sports.

For some reason, despite the history of kung fu repeatedly saying otherwise, some people seem to think that having to go outside of one teacher is a weakness of the practitioner and the teacher, instead of recognizing good kung fu and learning it.

[Dale Dugas]

Keep It Simple Stupid.

You need to train and keep things to the most minimal yet maximizes potential in application.

Why do Kung Fu people tell you that you need 10 years to learn something that others are teaching in 1?

Ive given up on the BS Takes 10years Kung Fu movement and started to train much more realistically.

All for use and nothing for show.

You need to train how to strike, kick, throw, & grapple. If need be, go learn from others. I agree with many others here that there is nothing wrong with learning from multiple teachers. Look at Master Chang from Shuai Jiao. He spent years learning from different teachers who were experts in different aspects of Shuai Jiao, let alone being cross trained in other systems.

If you do not train in what you lack, someone who does is going to get you.

I do not care who tells you that you only need one of the above mentioned skills or half of them.

If you lack one of these areas, someone who does not will get you.

Hence the Masters of old trained in Da Ti Shuai Na. And sought out people who could help them.

We need to examine our training and update it.

The more you bleed, sweat and cry in the training hall, the less you will bleed, sweat and cry on the battle field.

[donjitsu2]

Someone makes the following comments:

- The "cross training" takes away from concentrating on your core specialty.
- Being a specialist is quite common in our daily life.

Most

- long fist guys cross train praying mantis system.
- Baji guys cross train Pi Gua system.
- XingYi guys cross train Taiji system.

But most WC guys are against the idea of "cross training". Why?

Francis Fong and his Wing Chun people aren't against cross training. My Muay Thai instructor is a Wing Chun instructor under sifu Fong.

In fact, I would say most of the Wing Chun people I've ever met cross train in some other martial art. Maybe I haven't been around enough wing chun people.

[Faux Newbie]

Ive given up on the BS Takes 10years Kung Fu movement and started to train much more realistically.

All for use and nothing for show.



100% agree. Form, in one sense, is an encyclopedia of a system's techniques/approaches. Pulling them out of their and drilling them is an absolute necessity from the start. Form is for those studying the system and carrying on the lineage, not for showing off. If one understands the contents of the form, and has trained them, then the least entertaining thing they could possibly do to showcase their style is the form, versus actually throwing people, seizing, etc.

[bawang]

kung fu people are often against crosstraining because they see western martial art of their fathers as bullies. but the truth is most people who train "modern" martial arts were also bullied as children. its just taboo in western culture to talk about this things and show weakness, whereas asian martial arts ackowledge that one time you were weak. transformation of a weak scared man into a strong and scary man is a theme of taoist kung fu, related to alchemy and elixir transforming.

dont confuse ackowleding of your weakness into embracing and celebrating weakness.

[Faux Newbie]

dont confuse ackowleding of your weakness into embracing and celebrating weakness.

Very well stated. Too many people have to find a reason other than their own training for why results don't match claims, and a lot of people train in order to claim to be something, instead of just becoming what they joined martial arts to be.

No one joins a martial art to defend the honor of [insert style here].

[bawang]

Very well stated. Too many people have to find a reason other than their own training for why results don't match claims, and a lot of people train in order to claim to be something, instead of just becoming what they joined martial arts to be.

No one joins a martial art to defend the honor of [insert style here].

kung fu people often associate big muscles with arrogance, bullying, and humiliation and pain. they often see kung fu styles like tai chi and wing chun as "one weird trick to defeat big tough guy". this is why they are scared of "cross training". to meet their childhood bully archetypes again. to know that they did not go on to bag groceries and flip burgers, but are successful and power, and still dominate you. skinny efiminate kung fu guys are children of boomers, that was the generation of neglect, lack of love from parents, new age movement erasing european tradition and heritage, and emasculation from feminism. that is why they seek out kung fu to fill that void within themselves.

you never have to accept what you are. you never have to "just be yourself".
the theme of kung fu is transformation.
lifting weights and hitting bags is not "crosstraining". they are "training".

[Faux Newbie]

kung fu people often associate big muscles with arrogance, bullying, and humiliation and pain. they often see kung fu styles like tai chi and wing chun as "one weird trick to defeat big tough guy". this is why they are scared of "cross training". to meet their childhood bully archetypes again. to know that they did not go on to bag groceries and flip burgers, but are successful and power, and still dominate you. skinny efiminate kung fu guys are children of boomers, that was the generation of neglect, lack of love from parents, new age movement erasing european tradition and heritage, and emasculation from feminism. that is why they seek out kung fu to fill that void within themselves.

I actually see the Western concept of machismo, which is just a slightly different idea of face, as a key part of the problem in much the same way face is a problem for Chinese martial arts in China. Not being able to face one's weaknesses, but having to deny them and respond with a show of strength.

There are plenty of fit kung fu people who cannot fight very well. Hell, when I was younger in kung fu, I knew a lot of body builders. The only ones who could fight were the ones who trained it, even if some of the others got in a bar fight here and there, that was them picking fights that were really just shows of strength, not testing skills against anyone worth fighting.

Shows of strength are not always applicable strength.


the theme of kung fu is transformation.
lifting weights and hitting bags is not "crosstraining". they are "training".

Agreed, as is working technique.

[donjitsu2]

lifting weights and hitting bags is not "crosstraining". they are "training".

words to live by...

[David Jamieson]

Indeed. Kung Fu is a transformative process.
For the mind and the body.

I don't know about the spiritual part. I suppose that kind of transformation is different from my point of view and has very little to do with Kung Fu practice in a martial sense.

[Kymus]

You need to train how to strike, kick, throw, & grapple. If need be, go learn from others. I agree with many others here that there is nothing wrong with learning from multiple teachers. Look at Master Chang from Shuai Jiao. He spent years learning from different teachers who were experts in different aspects of Shuai Jiao, let alone being cross trained in other systems.

If you do not train in what you lack, someone who does is going to get you.

I do not care who tells you that you only need one of the above mentioned skills or half of them.

If you lack one of these areas, someone who does not will get you.

Indeed!! This is the philosohy I live by. Well said!!

[sanjuro_ronin]

As I once state din another thread, the main issue that some CLAIM to have with cross training is the whole silliness of "jack of all trades, master of none".
The reality is that has ZERO to do with it because the TRADE is fighting.
Let me say it again, the TRADE of MA is FIGHTING.
For a MA that is a striker to training in a different MA ( perhaps grappling) to perfect his fighting skill is comparable to a welder that is proficient in TIG welding training in MIG to be a better welder.
The trade is welding, the cross training is in different TYPES of welding.
The trade we do is fighting and the cross training is in different TYPES of fighting.
When we cross training in the aspects that are not prioritized in out base MA (like grappling is not prioritized in WC for example) we are MASTERING our trade (fighting) because we are become proficient in ALL aspects of our trade.
No one is a master welder if he only knows ONE method of welding.
No one is a master MA if he knows only ONE aspect of the MA.

To cross train is to become a master in the trade that is Martial Arts.

[Kellen Bassette]

I like that analogy SR, well said.

[Dale Dugas]

Paul is spot on as always!

[Faux Newbie]

As I once state din another thread, the main issue that some CLAIM to have with cross training is the whole silliness of "jack of all trades, master of none".
The reality is that has ZERO to do with it because the TRADE is fighting.

Hey, I said that!

You owe me a dollar. Or a Canadian dollar.

Nitz that, I'm old school. I want a beaver pelt.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hey, I said that!

You owe me a dollar. Or a Canadian dollar.

Nitz that, I'm old school. I want a beaver pelt.

I am pretty sure I said it, I've been saying it since about 2002, LOL !

[Faux Newbie]

I am pretty sure I said it, I've been saying it since about 2002, LOL !

Chronology and history is clearly just a desperate gambit to steal my thunder.

It is a great analogy (that I apparently stole from you, beaver pelt is in the mail).

[sanjuro_ronin]

Chronology and history is clearly just a desperate gambit to steal my thunder.

It is a great analogy (that I apparently stole from you, beaver pelt is in the mail).

Here you go:

http://ihateyousoletmetellyouaboutit.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/sexy_gif-ce13.gif

[Faux Newbie]

Here you go:

http://ihateyousoletmetellyouaboutit.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/sexy_gif-ce13.gif

Are you rewarding my plagiarism?

Let me tell you about my days as a Canadian sniper.:D

[David Jamieson]

Are you rewarding my plagiarism?

Let me tell you about my days as a Canadian sniper.:D

Service pic in uniform or it didn't happen. :p

[Faux Newbie]

Service pic in uniform or it didn't happen. :p

I would be offended by your statement, but have achieved a higher spirituality through membership in Canadian secret societies and frequent guitar playing. Also, UFOs.:D

[Dragonzbane76]

As I once state din another thread, the main issue that some CLAIM to have with cross training is the whole silliness of "jack of all trades, master of none".
The reality is that has ZERO to do with it because the TRADE is fighting.
Let me say it again, the TRADE of MA is FIGHTING.
For a MA that is a striker to training in a different MA ( perhaps grappling) to perfect his fighting skill is comparable to a welder that is proficient in TIG welding training in MIG to be a better welder.
The trade is welding, the cross training is in different TYPES of welding.
The trade we do is fighting and the cross training is in different TYPES of fighting.
When we cross training in the aspects that are not prioritized in out base MA (like grappling is not prioritized in WC for example) we are MASTERING our trade (fighting) because we are become proficient in ALL aspects of our trade.
No one is a master welder if he only knows ONE method of welding.
No one is a master MA if he knows only ONE aspect of the MA.

To cross train is to become a master in the trade that is Martial Arts.

Slaying trolls since 02' with truth and sense.

[David Jamieson]

I would be offended by your statement, but have achieved a higher spirituality through membership in Canadian secret societies and frequent guitar playing. Also, UFOs.:D

what? someone let you in?
crikey,the jig is up.

UP!

[bawang]

kung fu already has cross training. sap ji kuen. our crosstraining is superior knucklehead kickboxer.

[Lee Chiang Po]

the reason no one wants to cross train their wing chun is very simple. If you mix black and white you get gray. mix good and bad and you get mediocre. Training any other inferior system will usually require one to violate the very principles that make wing chun the very best fighting system ever devised. you wanted to know, so there it is.

[pazman]

Training any other inferior system will usually require one to violate the very principles that make wing chun the very best fighting system ever devised.

8819

I agree.

[PalmStriker]

:) NEO didn't say "I know Wing Chun" to be taken seriously. http://img.gawkerassets.com/post/9/2012/06/matrix-i-know-kung-fu.jpg

[Dragonzbane76]

the reason no one wants to cross train their wing chun is very simple. If you mix black and white you get gray. mix good and bad and you get mediocre. Training any other inferior system will usually require one to violate the very principles that make wing chun the very best fighting system ever devised. you wanted to know, so there it is.

I truly wonder with comments like this from the "wing chun" community how they learn anything with the delusional ego attached so big it would make the titanic sink. With all the in fighting and politics how do they learn anything? and then you have guys like this that are just plain retarded stating a superiority complex that dwarfs almost anyone else.

[bawang]

I truly wonder with comments like this from the "wing chun" community how they learn anything with the delusional ego attached so big it would make the titanic sink. With all the in fighting and politics how do they learn anything? and then you have guys like this that are just plain retarded stating a superiority complex that dwarfs almost anyone else.

"modern" wingchun = learned helplessness + eunuch cuckold sadomasochism+ suppressed homersexual desires.

theres a elliot rodger in every wing chun enthusiast.

[Lee Chiang Po]

It has nothing to do with ego really. If you can't feel that way about your martial art then why do it? Do something you think is better. I also have black belts with 2 different jiujitsu organizations, but I do not mix them with wing chun. Both are solid principle based systems that would suffer if you started forsaking the very principles that make them what they are. So if I didn't feel that way about wing chun I probably wouldn't have the confidence to make it work for me.

[YouKnowWho]

If you can't feel that way about your martial art then why do it?
It's not the whole style but sometime it's just few missing elements.

The 1st time that I saw someone did WC, I liked his Tan Shou with elbow dropped right in the middle of the chest. I cross trained the WC system so I could replace my long fist 采手(Cai Shou) with the WC 摊手(Tan Shou) in order to protect my chest better.

I also had replaced my long fist roundhouse kick by the TKD roundhouse kick, and later on further replaced it by the MT roundhouse kick.

Did I water down or dis-respect my long fist system? It's myself that I care about and not my long fist system.

[Dragonzbane76]

Training any other inferior system

not ego driven? Tell me again you just bashed on anything else MA's related and it's not ego driven?


I also have black belts with 2 different jiujitsu organizations, but I do not mix them with wing chun.

I don't think you are understand the title of the subject matter we are speaking about.

[donjitsu2]

I also have black belts with 2 different jiujitsu organizations, but I do not mix them with wing chun. Both are solid principle based systems that would suffer if you started forsaking the very principles that make them what they are.

You can't possibly be serious. Tell me you're just screwing around.

Because you have to realize how dumb this sound. You have to realize that being so locked into applying the principles of one style that you cannot apply the principles of another just means that you're probably autistic. You do realize that right?



http://i.imgur.com/BXdvQgx.jpg

[YouKnowWho]

Training any other inferior system ...

I used to think that the

- "parrying mantis" is the best system because the maximum speed generation.
- "Baji" is the best system because the maximum power generation.
- "Zimen" is the best system because the finger tips pressure point striking.

After I have cross trained all 3, I realized that there is no such thing as the best system. If there is no best system, there is no "inferior system".

[donjitsu2]

If there is no best system, there is no "inferior system".


Well...there is at least ONE inferior system:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d696t3yALAY

[sanjuro_ronin]

You can't possibly be serious. Tell me you're just screwing around.

Because you have to realize how dumb this sound. You have to realize that being so locked into applying the principles of one style that you cannot apply the principles of another just means that you're probably autistic. You do realize that right?
]

It has pretty much been established that Lee is full of it or is one of the biggest troll here, either way do NOT take anything he says seriously.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I am a Wing Chun practitioner and have been for a fair number of years.
I started out in Judo and obtained a BB when I was 13.
I started working for a local company when I was about 15 or so and one of the workers there was from Hong Kong.
One day he put me on my but a few times while we were messing around and I asked what he used and he told me Wing Chun.
Short story is he taught me a bit before returning to Hong Kong.

I then entered the U.S. Army and using the station of choice option got stationed in Ft. Lewis and trained in Wing Chun Under Roy Undem in Seattle. Roy was of the Augustine Fond lineage but had also trained in Hung Gar. I was then sent to Germany and trained in the Leung Ting version of Wing Tsun. After returning to the states I continued my WT and even had the opportunity to live with my Sifu, Allan Fong, on Staten Island for a few years. After leaving WT I have since been affiliated with Sifu Chung Kwok Chow of NYC.

During my time in WC/WT I have also trained in Pekiti Tirsia Kali under a student of Leo Gaje. I have also trained in Hsing Yi as well as American Kuntao Silat with a focus on Malabar Silat. I would also like to point out that in WT there is cross training in Latosa Escrima as an accepted part training.

I agree with what was posted earlier by JIMBO; traditionally one was expected to cross train. In fact, there was, I believe, an agreement that those training in Pakua would also learn Hsing Yi and vice versa. The issue, as previously stated is with the lack of a foundation prior to learning and adapting other systems to your skill set.

I believe, and this is just my opinion, that many who practice today, not just Wing Chun although we seem to be some of the most vocal, do not spend enough time to really understand their system and build a firm foundation. Instead, they constantly look for shortcuts or jump from one lineage to another in hopes that they will find the secret “Holy Grail” of combat. As I point out to my students, there really are no secrets but to practice and put in the time and effort to learn.

With the proper strongly built foundation then one is able to adapt other things into their system, if they so desire. But without that firm foundation and a deeper understanding of their core system, nothing added will bring any value. When one does have that core foundation, and the art is theirs then one can apply differing things within the framework of their core system.

So the main point of this lengthy post is to point out that not all Wing Chun people are against cross training. It is just that so many who practice Wing Chun really have no foundation on which to build which results not only in bad Wing Chun but poor cross training as well.

This is just my opinion though and I could be wrong. I have been known to be wrong before. :p

[Lee Chiang Po]

I may indeed be autistic, or retarded. I certainly don't think like an old man. I stated training at 10 years of age and was lucky enough to turn 69 this very month. I figure I have been a wing chun practitioner now for longer than most of you have existed.
Most of you talk about cross training in a way that you can use 2 different systems at the very same time. This could work I guess with the other styles of kung fu, but wing chun is completely different from the others. Things are done and not done as a matter of principal. You start adding moves that are not compliant with certain principals you tend to neutralize workability. It is possible to train a different martial system, just as long as you are not trying to combine it with what you already have. Center line fighting does not necessarily mix well with round house kicks and punches, just for a small example.
I have noticed that some of you are very quick to call names and pass insults, but this only tends to reflect your own integrity. Most of you are simply not old enough to have trained in all the martial systems you have claimed to, and if you did you could not have a good mastery of any of them. Just by reading and watching the way you argue every possible point. It has been my experience that truly learned men all tend to agree for the most part. Facts are facts, and once you know and realize the facts, it is no longer a point to argue.
OH, there is one thing I do envy of you. Your prowess with the computer. Most of you can google stuff up really fast so as to be able to speak like an expert on the subject. I know, and I do understand, it is just so easy for you when you are hidden behind a silly screen name.

[Dragonzbane76]

Most of you talk about cross training in a way that you can use 2 different systems at the very same time. This could work I guess with the other styles of kung fu, but wing chun is completely different from the others. Things are done and not done as a matter of principal. You start adding moves that are not compliant with certain principals you tend to neutralize workability. It is possible to train a different martial system, just as long as you are not trying to combine it with what you already have. Center line fighting does not necessarily mix well with round house kicks and punches, just for a small example.

Dear sir, mama, whatever,.....

I clipped this from your statement. It's not that bad, it's your opinion. It doesn't per say bash others for there differences and you bring some points to the front. I can accept this. you go on and on about you have done this and that, well good for you, I appreciate a mixed background and experience. What I don't appreciate is your rude and snide agenda that you throw out ever single time. I equate this to religion, in a fashion, everyone believes in something even if you are atheist you still believe in some physical spectrum. But you always have the douchbags that think we are graced with there presence and that they have the answers while looking down there nose upon us "unbelievers" or some such bullsh!t. Hypocritical in the end, and probably the root of many many atrocities in this world. Humble is such a hard quality to find these days.

[bawang]

I may indeed be autistic, or retarded.

admitting your problem is the first step on the road to recovery