From Victory to the Hung 洪勝 to Great Victory 鸿勝

[hskwarrior]

It’s a well known fact that the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon (佛山鴻勝蔡李佛)as founded by Jeung Hung Sing was one of the most famous martial art schools to emerge from southern China during the last 60+ years of the Qing Dynasty (1644-1911). Today (160 years later), the Hung Sing 鴻勝 name continues to hold a high level of prestige amongst the older generations of southern Chinese martial teachers and students. Even the government of Fut San recognized Jeung Hung Sing’s major contributions not only to gung fu, but, for protecting their country against foreign invaders as well. Now, you can find a Hung Sing “鴻勝”school on virtually every continent of the world. But, not many people remember or even know the true root to the Hung Sing name itself.

In every Chinese martial art community around the world its safe to say the Hung Sing “鴻勝” Chinese characters as we know it today are highly recognizable. However, reaching back to 1851 this Hung Sing “鴻勝” wasn’t the original name being used in those days. It came later and was used as the replacement characters and installed somewhere between 1867 when Jeung Hung Sing returned to re-open his school in Fut San, or, in 1875 when Chan Heung passed away. Either way, not too many students of today’s generation are aware of the origin of this name and naturally assumed it was the one given to Jeung Yim by the monk Ching Cho (Green Grass Monk).

The answer to the question of “where did Jeung Yim’s Hung Sing name come from?”, was discovered in one of the books published in 1866 by a certain European Free Mason, who, was interested in the Chinese secret society. In this case, the author personally documented what he found on the flags of the society by hand. The truth about its origins came in the form of a slogan consisting of only 4 Chinese words found on one of those flags. The only trick is, it takes someone with inside knowledge of the society to know what to look for and how to decipher it. Hiding things in plain sight to conceal its true meaning from prying eyes was a common practice amongst the Chinese secret societies.

From the moment the Qing government destroyed the Shaolin Temple (Circa 1760), killing the monks within it, overthrowing the Qing has been one of the Hung Mun’s primary goals since its existence. This is where the secretive slogan of four words come into play. The meaning behind it was “the Hung Mun will be victorious in overthrowing the Qing government.” You can arguably claim that the slogan was more in line with a prediction of victory more than anything else. Still, because of the government mandate that anyone presumed to be a member of the Hung Mun were to be decapitated on the spot, they were forced to hide this prediction within an obscured slogan.

The original Hung Sing (洪勝) name given to Jeung Yim by the Green Grass Monk meant Hung Victory and can also be translated as Victory to the Hung, as in Hung Mun. It was derived from the Hung Mun slogan and used as synonym for it. In addition to this, the Hung Sing (洪勝) name shares the exact same greater meaning of “the Hung Mun will be victorious in overthrowing the Qing government” with the four worded slogan. Furthermore, this name wasn’t something created by Jeung Yim as it was already in use elsewhere, nor, was it exclusively used by him. For instance, a 洪勝堂 (Hung Sing Tong) already existed in the mountains of Guangxi where 60 out of 100 secret society tongs contained the word Sing ”勝”or Victory in their names.

In 1867 Jeung Hung Sing returned to Fut San to re-open his school that was closed down by the Qing government. Somewhere between 1867-1875 Jeung Yim needed to change the name of his school in order to avoid futher trouble with the law. According to certain Chan Family Choy Lee Fut members he asked Chan Heung for help in choosing a new name, but, since there are no records of this its difficult to verify. Regardless, he changed his schools name to 鴻勝 (Hung Sing) while keeping the “Hung”pronunciation by replacing the original “洪” (Hung) character with.

Jeung Yim’s decision to use this character was well thought out for a few of reasons. First, the new “鴻” (Hung – lit. Trans. - Great Wild Goose) character didn’t have a visual connection to the outlawed secret society to a spectator. However, there is more to the new character than meets the eye. Secondly, on the left side of both characters “洪 & 鴻” the three water drops (氵) are found. This was a hidden symbol used by the secret society. Thirdly, another secret symbol used by the tong founded by the Green Grass Monk was for the word Sau meaning “Longevity.” The new “鴻” (Hung – lit. Trans. - Great Wild Goose) character also has a connection to the word “Longevity” since this is what the Wild Goose represents within the Chinese Culture.

Masters like Lui Chun, Yuen Hai, and Lee Yan were Jeung Yim’s students when the school was using the original 洪勝 (Hung Sing-Hung Victory ) name, while in 1884 Chan Ngau Sing began training with Jeung Yim when the school was already using the new 鴻勝 (Hung Sing – Great Wild Goose) characters. From that point to the present, the old name had long been forgotten and the new one gained fame throughout the world. Today, you can find a 鴻勝 school on virtually every continent on the planet. And, since 2001 the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon (佛山鴻勝蔡李佛), the birthplace of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut, has re-emerged into the martial world the legacy of Jeung Yim is once again regaining its popularity. I know if Jeung Yim was watching over us he’d be extremely proud to see his fighting method flourishing like it is, Long Live Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut.

[bawang]

hong victory was changed to great victory after hong xiuquan started acting crazy. also looting and pillaging the cities brought a lot of guilt to young men who thought they were fighting as heroes.

not only clf deny or downplay taiping connection, dozens of kung fus tyles today was born from taiping rebelion but denies links. biggest denier is shaolin kung fu.

[hskwarrior]

It's the governments fault the tai ping rebellion took place. they let the white people in to try and convert their heathen selves to the civilized world of Christianity.
if i were living during that time, i'd have done what the chinese did to the foreigners as well. Invade my country and try to change our ways to yours, meet my big ass
Chopper!!!!!

[Runlikehell]

It's the governments fault the tai ping rebellion took place. they let the white people in to try and convert their heathen selves to the civilized world of Christianity.
if i were living during that time, i'd have done what the chinese did to the foreigners as well. Invade my country and try to change our ways to yours, meet my big ass
Chopper!!!!!

I wish more civilisations reacted to missionaries in that manner, but that's another topic.

Sifu Frank, thanks for an informative post. I know little about CLF and its history but I love reading about CMA history in general.

[hskwarrior]

Thank you sir.

[SoCo KungFu]

Interesting. Don't take this the wrong way, I know you and I go at each other. However, I do have a serious inquiry/critique here. What evidence have you uncovered of Ching Cho's existence? Is it all just in the hand postures still? That's really not very solid, you'd have to admit. Since you're the insider, have you found anything more concrete regarding Green Grass Monk. Especially given Doc Wong's turnabout, and your slam at him for doing so... Not calling you out this time. Genuine question.

[hskwarrior]

As far as i am going to say....... the lodge i belong to is founded by the green grass monk. The very same one Shrimp boy is the Dragon Head of. GGM's Tong in China was the largest and most powerful Tong in all of southern China (not my quote.....a police researchers quote). In my book, these are some of the things I cover in regards to the GGM. I reveal his true name (although my teacher put it out there already), what his parents did for a living, his teachers name, his actual shaolin temple name, how he came to get the name of "GREEN GRASS" and so on. I am adding in some pics of statues, and caricatures of him that even come from the tong he founded. Do i have birth records? NO. you won't find much about him outside of the secret society. why? the government wanted his head. So he disguised himself and kept his identity a secret to those he didn't know. when your life is on the line, you won't put out things that will get you apprehended.

Doc Fai Wong now FALSELY claims he found the true identity of the GREEN GRASS MONK and that he was actually the Monk Choy Fook and that "GREEN GRASS" was his Buddhist name. But this isn't new, other CLF students that research like myself know what i know and have said that "Sure, if we can apply the GGM to Chan Heung, then he does exist. But, if we say it was Cheung Hung Sing's teacher, then no he doesn't exist." I don't know about anyone else, but I can see the BS in the midst of all that.... extremely clearly.

this is my response to everyone trying to claim the GGM as Monk Choy Fook......

Monk Choy Fook is NOT the Green Grass Monk

By Sifu Frankie M

The true identity of the Green Grass Monk and whether or not he was a Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon creation (as it was once accused) has long been a sore spot for the Choy Lee Fut fraternity. On one hand, this mysterious character was never part of Chan Heung’s history. I have personally contacted various leaders of King Mui lineages to quiz them on what they may have known about the Green Grass Monk. And, the responses were all the same, “Sorry, his name isn’t found in our official documentation.” After that, it was back to square one and all I could do was keep digging.

On the other hand, the Green Grass Monk has always been a part of the history of the Cheung Hung Sing lineages from the very beginning. Sure, we didn’t have much in regards of recorded history within the Fut San Hung Sing lineages. But, upon closer inspection, all of the students of Cheung Hung Sing’s school were labeled as rebels by the Qing Empire and they were forced to go deep underground. Any written literature that may connect someone with the outlawed groups could and often did mean instant death by beheading. Therefore, taking this into consideration, it makes perfect sense to why they chose to verbally transmit their history and information instead.

In the year 2001, a big heated debate on a well known kung fu forum took place. Students of all three of Choy Lee Fut’s major branches (Chan Fam, Hung Sing and Buk Sing) participated in this discussion that went on for some time. No one could agree in regards to whether or not Green Grass Monk was just a story or indeed very real. While it cause a few ripples within the fraternity, the after effect was the newer and younger generations began to question their own teachers about this monk. It definitely wasn’t an issue that was going to be swept under the rug anytime soon.

The Green Grass Monk debate caused such a ruckus that one very high profile Choy Lee Fut teacher came out and claimed that he discovered the true identity of the Green Grass Monk. His erroneous claim stated that “Green Grass” was the monasterial name of Chan Heung’s second teacher Monk Choy Fook. This announcement turned the Choy Lee Fut fraternity on its ear because of the fact that a number of years before this incident, he wrote a book and listed many reasons why he felt the Green Grass Monk was a concoction of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon.

Now, it is my personal opinion that this Choy Lee Fut teacher was monopolizing on the idea that no one would be dedicated or resourceful enough to discover the truth. Since he was unaware of the outside sources at my disposal, he must have felt that he could get away with claiming the “Green Grass” name was of Buddhist origin. But, when my book is complete, people will learn the various names the Green Grass Monk used as his alias’, the occupation of his parents, how he came to be a shaolin monk, about his life, all the way down to the genesis of the “Green Grass” name and much, much more.

But the one thing I need to clear up right away is that Monk Choy Fook is in no way, shape or form the Green Grass Monk. More and more these days you will come across historical information that has adopted this misconceived notion of the Green Grass Monk’s identity. And, if this LIE keeps getting perpetuated, people will believe it’s the truth. This would not be good for the Choy Lee Fut fraternity because everyone knows the Green Grass Monk was Cheung Hung Sing’s 3rd teacher and had nothing to do with chan heung at all.

A few of the quick and easy points to recognize that Monk Choy Fook is NOT the Green Grass Monk is: 1) Choy Fook is known to have lived on Mt. Lou Fu while the Green Grass Monk was living on the Ba Pai Mountain many miles away. As you can see from the image of the map, this mountain was very far away from Mt Loufu and would be too difficult for an elderly monk to travel back and forth from, 2) One very important identifying factor is that keeps getting brought up is the notion that Monk Choy Fook had a scarred head, allegedly from his head being caught on fire during the destruction of the southern Shaolin Temple as he escaped. It is such an important aspect of Monk Choy Fook aka Lan Tau Fook, that it needed to be mentioned. However, nothing of the sort has ever been mentioned about the Green Grass Monk at all.


The third point to make note of is Monk Choy Fook was a master of the Choy Gar style and died as a recluse on Mt. Loufu while the Green Grass Monk lived on Ba Pai Mountain, taught Fut Gar Kuen, was a founder of the Hung Mun, and had a mission of raising an army to rise up against the government. In addition to all of this, the “GREEN GRASS” name isn’t anyone’s temple name at all. Never was, and never will be. Do you know why? Because it’s true origin is not with Shaolin, but the Chinese Secret Society. I go deeper into this subject in the book I am writing.

In conclusion, I’m not sure why anyone would want to abuse the legacy of the Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon by denying the Green Grass Monk’s existence as long as it was part of Cheung Hung Sing’s history. But if the Green Grass Monk can be applied towards Chan Heung’s legacy, then sure, he really did exist. One doesn’t need to be a rocket scientist to see the reasoning behind anyone claiming Monk Choy Fook to be the Green Grass Monk. The sad part of it is, those people making these claims know they are not telling the truth. Still, the truth shall set you free.

This is a map that shows where the Ba Pai Mountain was in comparison to Mt Loufu where Monk Choy Fook was. now, they always claimed the Ba Pai Mountain didn't exist. but the circle on the left is where the Ba Pai Mountain is and the circle on the right is Mt Loufu 8822

[hskwarrior]

for any remaining doubters that the Ba Pai San ever existed here are some pics of the mountain today......

8823882488258826

[bawang]

the name refers to a taoist spell for success in rebellion. "let the blades of grass become forest of swords". the grass represents the common people. green grass refers to the youth.

[hskwarrior]

Sounds nice. but the green grass name strictly belongs to the chinese secret society. nothing more, nothing less.

[Bai Chi]

I heard that the Green Grass Monk got his name from selling weed to Shaolin dropouts and coolies in Guandong.

[hskwarrior]

I heard that the Green Grass Monk got his name from selling weed to Shaolin dropouts and coolies in Guandong.

yeah??? that's wonderful. thanks for sharing.

[Bai Chi]

yeah??? that's wonderful. thanks for sharing.

You are most welcome!

[extrajoseph]

Frank,
You are still going on with this rubbish about the CLF history after all these years. Your research is full of holes, let me give you two examples:
1) There is no way Jeung Ah-Yim and his students would use the name "Victory to Hung Men" Hung Sing for their school, they would have been persecuted right on the spot by the Ching government.
2) Ba Pai Mountain is not in Guangdong as showed in your map, it is in Guangxi, what you have circled as Bai Pai Moiuntain is a town called Luoding in Guangdong, not very far from where I was born.
If you want to change CLF history to suit your fantasy, you'll need to do better than this.
XJ

[extrajoseph]

Come to think of it, whoever told you Luoding is Ba Pai has a wicked sense of humor, because Luofu, where Choy Fok came from, means "everything is undetermined (floating)", whereas Luoding means "everything is determined (settled)".

[hskwarrior]

Joseph,

I never used to think you are stupid until now. I even give you credit for driving me to discover the things I have.
You yourself have claimed that "GREEN GRASS" was Monk Choy Fook's buddhist name.
You yourself claimed that Ba Pai San didn't exist because you looked for it.
You yourself claimed that Hung Victory was and would never have been used by my elders.
YOU yourself have claimed that Cheung Hung Sing only started training with Chan Heung in 1867.
YOU yourself have claimed that Chan Heung sent Cheung Hung Sing to Fut San.

and ONLY you yourself believe your own lies.
Not me. I will never believe your lies and I will never stop telling the truth about my lineage.

IF i were YOU, i'd get my facts in order and stop spreading lies like you all have been doing. For example, Choy Fook learned from Jue Yuan Monk (觉远上人), Yi Guan Monk (一贯禅师), and Li Sou (李叟). The fact that you have overlooked the HUGE age gap between these two alleged teachers of Choy Fook existed Hundreds of years before Choy Fook was even born.
You don't know if Chan Yuen Wu taught Hung Gar, Shaolin Kung Fu, Hung Fut, or Fut Gar. Your stories have changed with the seasons. You're not even sure what temple, city, or place he came from.

You guys now claim "Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut" when you know **** well Chan Heung created CLF, Cheung Hung Sing is the Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut and Tam Sam is Buk Sing Choy Lee Fut. you guys are shaming Chan Heung.

You are so shady that when you claim Cheung Hung Sing wasn't the first "Hung Sing" in Fut San and say Chan Din Foon was the first, you know its just a PLAY ON WORDS. Cheung Hung Sing's Hung Sing name is not the same as Chan Heung's Hung Sing name strictly by definition alone. "Hung Victory" and Holy Sage or Great Sage doesn't mean the same thing, they're apples and oranges. but you play on the hope of people not knowing the difference between the two names.

You can't claim Chan Heung chose the Hung Sheng name because of his alleged connection to the Hung Mun because he was not involved with any revolutions until the Opium war and after that he got involved with Chen Song allegedly. That was in the 1840's to the 1850's and CLF was established in 1836. Your hung sing name is in regards to a government official who got made a saint. Our hung sing is in regards to a mission and purpose. therefore, they are not one and the same, nor are they related to each other. So that disproves that "all Hung Sing are one family". Another play on words there. All Hung Sheng "洪聖" are one family" is only intended for those schools that use the Hung Sheng (洪聖-Holy Sage), not Cheung Hung Sing's Hung Sing (洪勝/鴻勝 - Hung/Great Victory).

First of all, "天下洪圣是一家" (All Hung Sing is one family) is borrowed from Hung Mun's slogan "天下洪門是一家" (All Hung Mun is one family). Therefore, with intended repetition, Hung Sing (洪聖) is in reference to both a Deity's Temple and to Emperor Hung Wu. The Temple has nothing to do with the Hung Mun. Hung Wu, is not a member, but, is at the forefront of the Hung Mun society. Hung Wu could be likened to a patron Saint to the society. not even Chan Koon pak's Heroic Victory (雄勝) ) is related to (洪聖). NOT AT ALL

Go ahead, jump up and down claiming cheung hung sing didn't use this name 洪勝 - Hung Victory. It doesn't mean you are correct, but you're entitled to believe your own lies if you wish. me, i saw past your misinformation a LOOOOOOOOONG time ago.

took you long enough to respond. you're getting pretty old now, i understand.

[hskwarrior]

Come to think of it, whoever told you Luoding is Ba Pai has a wicked sense of humor, because Luofu, where Choy Fok came from, means "everything is undetermined (floating)", whereas Luoding means "everything is determined (settled)".

that's a LAME effing attempt to twist the truth. One, i NEVER said Ba Pai Mountain IS also called LUODING. That's YOUR non comprehension of english.

However, I DID say that the Ba Pai Mountain is found inside LOUDING, which is just on the outskirts of Guangxi. I know you saw the pictures i posted of Ba Pai San. The CIRCLE was to indicate where the Ba Pai San was in comparison to Mt. Loufu. 200 + miles away.


1) There is no way Jeung Ah-Yim and his students would use the name "Victory to Hung Men" Hung Sing for their school, they would have been persecuted right on the spot by the Ching government.

Hence the MANY times Cheung Yim's Fut San Hung Sing Kwoon was forced to close down. If the Hung Victory Tong could exist during that period why wouldn't it exist for Cheung Hung Sing? because you say so? LMAO. Even a news paper article featuring Tam Sam mentions their school using this 洪勝 name.

What you REALLY should be trying to explain is how Monk Choy Fook was able to learn from Jiu Yan and Li Sou when these two people existed in the 13th century and part of the Yuan Dynasty. If you are going to make the claim that Choy Fook learned from these too people, EXPLAIN THE 300+ YEAR GAP between them and monk choy fook?

How about this piece on information: (no disrespect intended to the people who posted it, just using it as an example) Choy Fook was a Shaolin monk and refugee from the southern Shaolin temple in Fukien. Choy Fook was also known as Lantau Fook, or “broken head” Fook, due to the injuries he sustained while escaping the southern Shaolin temple in the onslaught of the Qing troops. Most attribute the Fut Jerng or “Buddha palm” technique to Choy Fook. The final of Chan Heung’s three teachers, Choy Fook instructed Chan for ten years. At the conclusion of his study, Chan was asked by Choy Fook to call his style Hung Sing paying homage and showing allegiance to the anti government secret societies that once took refuge at the southern Shaolin temple.

[extrajoseph]

However, I DID say that the Ba Pai Mountain is found inside LOUDING, which is just on the outskirts of Guangxi. I know you saw the pictures i posted of Ba Pai San. The CIRCLE was to indicate where the Ba Pai San was in comparison to Mt. Loufu. 200 + miles away.

If Ba Pai Shan is to be found in Luoding, please do identify the location for us on a map.


What you REALLY should be trying to explain is how Monk Choy Fook was able to learn from [B]Jiu Yan and Li Sou when these two people existed in the 13th century and part of the Yuan Dynasty. If you are going to make the claim that Choy Fook learned from these too people, EXPLAIN THE 300+ YEAR GAP between them and monk choy fook?

Choy Fook was from Shaolin Temple, it has a long history of different masters passing down their art from generations before, it is not meant to be literal, that explains the time gap. You'll need to read Chinese history from a Chinese perspective.

The truth about your lineage should have been documented by your elders, please give us the source to support your claims.

[hskwarrior]

If Ba Pai Shan is to be found in Luoding, please do identify the location for us on a map.

I posted actual photo's of the Ba Pai San. I don't need to locate it for YOU. You can do the same searching I did.

[hskwarrior]

Choy Fook was from Shaolin Temple, it has a long history of different masters passing down their art from generations before, it is not meant to be literal, that explains the time gap. You'll need to read Chinese history from a Chinese perspective.

Don't go around telling people that one or two of Choy Fook's teachers were..... but existed hundreds of years before Choy Fook was ever born. I might start telling people that Jesus is my first cousin.

[hskwarrior]

The truth about your lineage should have been documented by your elders, please give us the source to support your claims.

Chan Yiu Chi didn't start documenting until the 1960's. We've been in the USA since the 1920's. Lau Bun's sigung was Cheung Hung Sing and he knew the history and passed it down to my sigung Jew Leong. And the 1970's Chan Heung memorial association booklet is filled with inaccuracies as they scrambled to compile information. I'm going to trust my lineage long before I trust you and your misleadings.

[hskwarrior]

The truth about your lineage should have been documented by your elders, please give us the source to support your claims.

ALL of my elders going back to the Choy Lee Fut co-founder Cheung Hung Sing were all members of the Hung Mun. Unlike Chan Heung, who was never a member, only a supporter.

They were all very very active with revolution after revolution. They weren't interested in documenting history, they were LIVING IT. They were secret society men. Secrecy was paramount in their day and age.
and if you think hardcore secret society men were going to get caught with literature that could mean their death, you're severely mistaken.

today, you can do a youtube search on the Wah Ching and the only thing you will find is the stupid current generations identifying themselves via video for all the cops to see. But why don't you see anything at all on the original Wah Ching online? you see almost any other gang online, histories and all that today. You still won't find pics of the originals? why? they knew how to keep stuff secret. period. Did it mean they were not wah ching's because there are no pics available of the original group? Do you know who was a Wah Ching? the son of Kwan Tak Hing. And I have pics to back that up. look for it online, you won't find it. It's even on my facebook page. but you won't know where to find it because i respect their need for secrecy. why did i post it to FB? I was asked to.

to conclude, Chan Heung had the time on his hands to document whatever he did. Cheung Hung Sing didn't have that luxury of time. he was busy making history. Which would explain why Cheung Hung Sing is called one of southern China's greatest fighters. try all you like Jo Jo o' boy. but be forewarned, it won't work.

[hskwarrior]

now SOME of chan heung's grand students were involved with the Hung Mun and one of Sun Yat Sen's close friends was a Choy Lee Fut guy

8959

8956

WHY DOES HE LOOK LIKE LEE YAU SAN?????

8957

AND WHY DOES LEE YAU SAN LOOK LIKE CHAN YUEN WU?????

8958

[extrajoseph]

Frank,

It is very nice of you to show us these pictures and map but you have to give us the source where they come from, otherwise we have no means to verify. Don't be like your hero Raymond "Shrimp Boy" Chow, who used the Hung Men to cover up his wicked deeds and in the process harmed its reputation. In your case, it looks like you are using the Hung Men archive to twist the facts to fit your fantasy about CLF history. We are getting older and older each year, time for you to grow up.

XJ

[hskwarrior]

Frank,

It is very nice of you to show us these pictures and map but you have to give us the source where they come from, otherwise we have no means to verify. Don't be like your hero Raymond "Shrimp Boy" Chow, who used the Hung Men to cover up his wicked deeds and in the process harmed its reputation. In your case, it looks like you are using the Hung Men archive to twist the facts to fit your fantasy about CLF history. We are getting older and older each year, time for you to grow up.

what's wrong with YOUR fingers old man? If i can find it, you can find it. See, how retarded you are? You mistakenly assume my Dai Gor is my hero. You again, assume you know something but you don't know raymond. he didn't get busted committing any crimes. The image of our tong is spotless because the TONG wasn't part of any crimes. Our tong is not on trial and we are still operating smoothly even tho raymond is locked up. And, my hung mun archives provides more realistic answers than you could ever dream up.

Your people are NOW....TODAY ......trying to link themselves with the Hung Mun. But don't be mad, I will teach you all the things you didn't know and you won't have to call me sifu.

[hskwarrior]

Time to grow up? Did I invite you to my party? NO. YOU gate crashed with all of your insecurities. Because honestly, I'm not worried one bit about your misleading attempts. You can say anything you want but no one will believe you. I am very secure with what I know historically. So i don't feel the need to argue with you.

[extrajoseph]

If you are secured about your history then why are you not able to give out your sources? You have been researching for years now, yet there are no credible clues we can follow.

[extrajoseph]

Consequently we can only assume you have made them up.

[hskwarrior]

If you are secured about your history then why are you not able to give out your sources? You have been researching for years now, yet there are no credible clues we can follow.

Who are YOU that i have to provide YOU sources here on THIS forum? However, in the bibliography of my book i provide sources i've researched.


Consequently we can only assume you have made them up.

Consequently, I don't give a #@!# what YOU think. YOU are one of the BIGGEST LIARS in all of choy lee fut.

[extrajoseph]

Now now Frank calm down, looks like again you cannot provide us with any creditable evidence to support your claims. That is OK, we know this already. You have a nice weekend.
XJ

[hskwarrior]

Some more pictures of the Ba Pai Mountain in LuoDing

896189628963

[hskwarrior]

Don't gas yourself up thinking you got me mad JO JO O' boy.

I will never provide YOU a single source of anything here on this forum. It's a proven fact that regardless of any 100% credible sources and information I COULD provide you, you will poo poo it away and bitterly claim the information isn't true, incorrect somehow, doesn't understand something, or whatever.

if you want, i can get you a room with Shrimp Boy, i'm sure you'd love his company.

[hskwarrior]

Check it out Jo Jo o'boy

8964

[extrajoseph]

Some more pictures of the Ba Pai Mountain in LuoDing

896189628963

Frank, Anyone can download some pretty photos from the internet and claim that they are taken from Ba Pai Mountain. The last photo even got someone else's avatar on it (bottom left corner) and he photos don't look like they come from the same place. LOL.

[hskwarrior]

Frank, Anyone can download some pretty photos from the internet and claim that they are taken from Ba Pai Mountain. The last photo even got someone else's avatar on it (bottom left corner) and he photos don't look like they come from the same place. LOL.

see, THAT right there is why i will NEVER provide YOU with any of my resources. even when its the truth, you will find a way to try and mislead people. that really doesn't speak much about your character. actually it does, but what its saying isn't good.

But....it is an AWESOME thing that just because you don't believe, doesn't mean its not real. that's just an issue YOU need to deal with. and you should know how to search for the mountain. i know you're lame, a little slow, and not totally effed up in the head. close....but not totally.

LMAO....you're so ridiculously goofy that an avatar someone used for the picture they took in LuoDing on Ba Pai San bother's you. What? since this is a famuos mountain, did she shame the integrity of the mountain by using an avatar in the corner of it? its the perfect example of why i believe no matter what i provide you with, you will never believe it. UNLESS YOU CAN APPLY IT TO CHAN HEUNG, of course, right? LMAO that's just tooooooo funny
jo jo star.

hey, just because the paintings of Chan Heung aren't really of the actual chan heung, doesn't mean he didn't exist right???????

[hskwarrior]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t31.0-8/1669886_10152038736152732_849649917_o.jpg

[extrajoseph]

If you downloaded these pictures then it is very easy for you to give us the links, what have you to hide?

[extrajoseph]

What has the photo of Chan Yiu-Chi got to do with the claim that you have found Ba Pai Shan?

[hskwarrior]

If you downloaded these pictures then it is very easy for you to give us the links, what have you to hide?

if i was able to find them, and i'm obviously not chinese, YOU can find them. let your fingers do the walking.

[hskwarrior]

What has the photo of Chan Yiu-Chi got to do with the claim that you have found Ba Pai Shan?

i have not found it. It was never lost. I've only come to discover where it is and since lots of tourists go there since it is a famous and unique mountain.

[CLFNole]

Wow just like old times. How have you been XJ? In the words of Michael Corleone..."just when I thought I was out they pull me back in!"

[hskwarrior]

he wasn't pulled in, he crashed the party.

[extrajoseph]

Wow just like old times. How have you been XJ? In the words of Michael Corleone..."just when I thought I was out they pull me back in!"

I am doing fine CLFNo(b)le. Much older and calmer these days but still can't stand Frank's b.s., so I am still wasting my time with him, but hell, it is fun! :-) How about you?

[hskwarrior]

its not my fault you can't find the ba pai mountain. :D

[extrajoseph]

its not my fault you can't find the ba pai mountain. :D

Even if you have found the mountain you still have to show us the monk who grew the green weed and Ah Yim smoked it. :-)

[CLFNole]

I am doing fine CLFNo(b)le. Much older and calmer these days but still can't stand Frank's b.s., so I am still wasting my time with him, but hell, it is fun! :-) How about you?

I am doing well. Just continuing to train hard and enjoy life.

[hskwarrior]

Even if you have found the mountain you still have to show us the monk who grew the green weed and Ah Yim smoked it. :-)

It hurts so much knowing that i did find it. LMAO.....

evidence I got the Ching Cho Fe'sho!
https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t31.0-8/10443060_10152355010382732_7014775670261945804_o.j pg

[hskwarrior]

JO JO STAR........I WILL TEACH YOU A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THE BA PAI MOUNTAIN in chuanbu Luoding City, Guangdong Province. it has been described by people as a secluded paradise


1) BA PAI MOUNTAIN (EIGHT ROW MOUNTAIN) is a part of a set of unique mountain ranges in Luo Ding.

2) Amongst these mountain ranges Ba Pai San is ranked Fifth among 8 mountain ranges.

3) It's 1080.5 meters above sea level and is the highest of these mountains.

[hskwarrior]

here is another awesome picture of what is on the Ba Pai San

http://www.gzbzt.com/upload/image/20140722/20140722164332_67987.jpg

[extrajoseph]

Frank, Your story is Jeung Yim was sent by Chan Heung at 17 to study with the Green Grass Monk in Guangxi Ba Pai Mountain in a temple called Jap-Kin Gi (張炎17歲時得陳享推薦投奔廣西八排山閘建寺青草和尚), now you just give us a mountain in Guangdong from the internet, without establishing any connection of this mountain to a particular person in a particular place from a particular time, then it could be just any mountain with the name Ba Pai Shan.

[hskwarrior]

Frank, Your story is Jeung Yim was sent by Chan Heung at 17 to study with the Green Grass Monk in Guangxi Ba Pai Mountain in a temple called Jap-Kin Gi (張炎17歲時得陳享推薦投奔廣西八排山閘建寺青草和尚), now you just give us a mountain in Guangdong from the internet, without establishing any connection of this mountain to a particular person in a particular place from a particular time, then it could be just any mountain with the name Ba Pai Shan.

Now that's what i've been expecting jo jo star. Right on cue. do you realize your xinhui gov site says chan heung sent cheung yim to ba pai san.

you sound pretty bitter jo jo star. **** bitter if you ask me. hhahahhahaha. i found the ba pai san and you are acting like a pouting child over there. hahahahahahahaha

[extrajoseph]

Frank, Everyone knows there is a Ba Pai Mountain in Guangdong, it is a well-known scenic spot:
http://baike.baidu.com/view/7295551.htm
You have not found anything new and Jeung Yim is suppose to have gone to a Ba Pai San in Guangxi, they are not the same mountain.

[hskwarrior]

Frank, Everyone knows there is a Ba Pai Mountain in Guangdong, it is a well-known scenic spot:
http://baike.baidu.com/view/7295551.htm
You have not found anything new and Jeung Yim is suppose to have gone to a Ba Pai San in Guangxi, they are not the same mountain.

keep telling yourself that. no matter how you try to mislead everyone, no one believes YOU any more. your bitterness is crystal clear. The ba pai san is exactly where our elders said it would be.

I thought you said there is no ba pai san. now you claim you believe it? well, Hung Fut has roots to Ba Pai San too.

its slipping through your fingers jo jo star...

[hskwarrior]

Now, jo jo star, I have shown you the ba pai san which is IN the general area we have said it was according to our history.

YOU are claiming this isn't "THE" Ba Pai San so where is YOUR irrefutable evidence this isn't the mountain Cheung Hung Sing went to learn from the Green Grass Monk? if you're just gonna mislead people like you always do, show us how wrong i am. prove to me there is another Ba Pai San in the local area. and that there are two mountains with that name!!!!!

WITH THE FACT THAT I HAVE PROVIDED PICTURES OF THE ONLY MOUNTAIN IN GUANGDONG BY THE NAME OF BA PAI SAN, YOU BETTER PROVE IT IS NOT THE REAL MOUNTAIN AND THAT THERE ARE OTHER MOUNTAINS BY THIS NAME. IT IS NOT ENOUGH FOR YOU TO BRUSH IT OFF AND JUST SAY IT'S NOT THE ONE WITHOUT PROVING YOUR POINT. YOU DON'T WANT TO COME OFF LIKE A SORE LOSER NOW DO YOU? UNLESS YOU HAVE SOMETHING ELSE TO PROVE YOUR POINT, IT LOOKS LIKE YOU'RE BITTER ABOUT IT. i WOULD WELCOME YOUR PROOF THIS IS NOT THE MOUNTAIN IN QUESTION. BUT I KNOW YOU CAN'T PROVE IT.

From Chan Heung's village to the LuoDing where the Ba Pai San is, is only 140 + miles and from LuoDing to Fut San was only roughly 126 miles.

[hskwarrior]

Frank, Your story is Jeung Yim was sent by Chan Heung at 17 to study with the Green Grass Monk in Ba Pai Mountain

yes, it is our story that in 1841 Chan Heung sent Cheung Yim to the Ba Pai Mountain at the age of 17 years old. While at first, no one outside of china could locate the Ba Pai San, today we now have pictures of this beautiful and special mountain. There's video of this awesome mountain as well. and even the Xinhui government site makes the same claim.

[hskwarrior]

五年后，为了让张炎继续深造，陈享又介绍他到八排山闸健寺拜青草和尚为师。张炎在那里得到青草和尚精心指导 ，苦练八年，精通了佛门掌法、拳技和医药之道。他学成后回到京梅，将青草和尚所传技艺授给陈享，以报师恩。 师徒二人经过切磋研究，融会贯通，创新了许多招数，如：小易筋经、穿莲佩剑、中阳插手、颇肋锤、缠丝马、隐 死还生马；以及三星桩、十字桩、梅花椿、竹椿、称桩、大开门椿、小开门椿等少林椿法等，还有南拳的棍术、枪 术、刀术。此外，还更新了大钯、锄头、铁扇、桥櫈、双钩、铜锤、五节鞭、双鞭等传统套路。这些创造和更新， 为蔡李佛拳锦上添花，增色不少。

After five years, in order to allow for further studies Zhang Yan, Chen Shiang also introduced him to the mountain gate eight rows of grass monk Jian Temple worship as a teacher. Zhang Yan, where monks get grass careful guidance, training hard years, mastered the Buddhist palm method, boxing skills and pharmaceutical Road. Upon graduation he returned to Jing-mei, a monk preached the grass artistry granted to Chen Shiang to report Shien. Learn through mentoring two studies, mastery, innovation many tricks, such as: small Yi Jin Jing, wearing lotus saber, Yang intervene, quite rib hammer, wrapped Sima, implicitly also born dead horse; and Samsung pile, cross piles, piles plum, bamboo piles, called piles, large open piles, piles and other small open Shaolin Chun law, as well as Nanquan cudgel, spear, broadsword. In addition, updated the Grand Palladium, hoes, iron fan, bridge stool, hook, copper hammer, five whip, whip and other traditional routines. The creation and updating of Choy Lay Fut icing on the cake, considerably.

[extrajoseph]

yes, it is our story that in 1841 Chan Heung sent Cheung Yim to the Ba Pai Mountain at the age of 17 years old. While at first, no one outside of china could locate the Ba Pai San, today we now have pictures of this beautiful and special mountain. There's video of this awesome mountain as well. and even the Xinhui government site makes the same claim.

Everyone can locate Luoding Bapai Shan in Guangdong, you can even get pictures of Luoding back in the 1930s:

http://bbs.big5.voc.com.cn/topic-771723-1-1.html

The quote I gave in Chinese earlier is not from the Xinhui government, it is from one of your lines of argument, even Bak Sing in Melbourne has found their Sigung Kong Hing and Leong Ji's claims unacceptable, they maintained Chan Heung is the founder of CLF and Futsan is not its birthplace:

http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/meanstreets/clf/clfkhint.htm

There is a Ba Pai San, but it is in Guangdong and there are many Green Grass monks, you have to show us how you can join the dots to make your version of CLF history credible.

Leong Ji has since got smarter, he knows it is a dead end trying to prove the existence of a Green Grass Monk in Guangxi Ba Pai San, he is now saying Chan Heung cannot have developed CLF because he was only a scholar! LOL.

During the visit to the Buck Sing Gwoon Melbourne by Leong Ji, He told us that the most common known history of Choy Lay Fut is incorrect, stating that:

"Chang Hung was not the sole founder of Choy Lay Fut but rather the person who planted the seed of its true development.
Jeong Hung Sing, one of Chan Heung's short-term students, is really credited developing Choy Lay Fut Hung Sing style to the deadly and lethal level of skill that it is today.

Leong Ji said, "The first Hung Sing Gwoon was opened in Fut San…" "Chan Heung was not a Kung Fu master, He was a scholar, and did he not develop the art of Choy Lay Fut…" "It was Jeong Hung Sing who developed Choy Lay Fut."

Before you continue on your crusade Frank and wasting your valuable time, please check your history and look at the facts and not just take a couple of elders' claim as being the ultimate truth, they have their own agenda in doing so.

[extrajoseph]

Frank, I am not sure if you realize that in your crusade-like effort to promote Jeung Yim as the founder or the co-founder of CLF, you have turned him from a loyal disciple who did a great job in promoting CLF, into a turncoat and a traitor who tried to bring down his teacher. Do you know that you are doing Jeung Yim a great disservice?

[hskwarrior]

The quote I gave in Chinese earlier is not from the Xinhui government, it is from one of your lines of argument, even Bak Sing in Melbourne has found their Sigung Kong Hing and Leong Ji's claims unacceptable, they maintained Chan Heung is the founder of CLF and Futsan is not its birthplace:

http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/m...f/clfkhint.htm

yes. CLF was founded by Chan Heung and co-founded by Cheung Hung Sing during the revamp of CLF. Fut San is the birthplace of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut as "FOUNDED" by Cheung Hung Sing.

[hskwarrior]

There is a Ba Pai San, but it is in Guangdong and there are many Green Grass monks, you have to show us how you can join the dots to make your version of CLF history credible.

THE continuance of your intentional misleading is more of a comedy show for me than you realize. i will tell you this pie face with 100% confidence, you will never be able to demonstrate that there are more than one "GREEN GRASS MONK" like you expressed misleadingly. that just proves you're nothing but a bald face liar.

In my book, I explain how and why the green grass name isn't a shaolin nor buddhist name like YOU and many others think it is. your attempt to mislead people with your lies is hilarious. but i challenge you to produce YOUR EVIDENCE there are "MANY" green grass monks. if you don't, i'm going to forever make your forum name a laughing stock in regards to CLF's history. with all of your bitterness and lies, you're reputation is dwindling to nothing.


"Chang Hung was not the sole founder of Choy Lay Fut but rather the person who planted the seed of its true development.
Jeong Hung Sing, one of Chan Heung's short-term students, is really credited developing Choy Lay Fut Hung Sing style to the deadly and lethal level of skill that it is today.

Leong Ji said, "The first Hung Sing Gwoon was opened in Fut San…" "Chan Heung was not a Kung Fu master, He was a scholar, and did he not develop the art of Choy Lay Fut…" "It was Jeong Hung Sing who developed Choy Lay Fut."

Before you continue on your crusade Frank and wasting your valuable time, please check your history and look at the facts and not just take a couple of elders' claim as being the ultimate truth, they have their own agenda in doing so.

I will believe Lun Chee's version of history long before i listen to YOUR lies.


Leong Ji has since got smarter, he knows it is a dead end trying to prove the existence of a Green Grass Monk in Guangxi Ba Pai San, he is now saying Chan Heung cannot have developed CLF because he was only a scholar! LOL.


sure, you're gonna talk BIG since Lun Chee has passed away. but, guess what? these days, the world is interested in Hung Sing and Buk Sing Choy Lee Fut. your times has come and gone. part of the reason for that is your false claims that Choy fook is Ching Cho, Choy fook who lived during the late 1700 -early 1800's learned from guys 300-400 years before he was born. people have opened their eyes to all of your politics and misleadings and no one really cares about you guys these days. LOL.

guess you should have told so many lies and put so much emphasis on dancing than actual combat training.


Frank, I am not sure if you realize that in your crusade-like effort to promote Jeung Yim as the founder or the co-founder of CLF, you have turned him from a loyal disciple who did a great job in promoting CLF, into a turncoat and a traitor who tried to bring down his teacher. Do you know that you are doing Jeung Yim a great disservice?

this sounds like the last ditch efforts of a dying breed trying to cling to life. there are so many lies and misleadings from your lineages you've dug your own graves.

[hskwarrior]

everyone can locate luoding bapai shan in guangdong, you can even get pictures of luoding back in the 1930s:

http://bbs.big5.voc.com.cn/topic-771723-1-1.html

rotflmffao...............sorry jo jo star, you can't mislead anyone any more. the jig is up mr liar guy you

[hskwarrior]

SHOCK REVELATIONS
TRANSCRIPT INTERVIEW SI GUNG KONG HING & LEONG JI


WARNING: This History of CHOY LAY FUT was given in brief by Si Gung Kong Hing at his home in Kowloon, March 1998. Added are parts from an interview with Leong Ji at the Buck Sing Gwoon Melbourne.

This transcript provides revelations that contradict the history of Choy Lay Fut and it's founder Chan Heung. These are

What is said forthwith conflicts with the popular history concerning the development of Choy Lay Fut. It is presented as we heard it, and without bias. The Buck Sing Gwoon takes no responsibility whatsoever for it's implications, if any. For the record, we, The Buck Sing Gwoon, maintain Chan Heung as the founder of Choy Lay Fut.

Chan Heung began his martial arts career at the age of seven when he went to live with his uncle, Yuen Woo, a famous boxer from the legendary Shaolin temple who trained the young boy in the art of Shaolin kung-fu. By the time Chan Heung was fifteen he became so proficient at his martial arts that he could defeat any challenger from nearby villages. By the time he reached his seventeenth year, he was ready to learn more. So Yuen Woo took him to train with Li Yau-San, his uncle's senior classmate from the Shaolin temple. Chan Heung spent the next four years perfecting his kung-fu under Li Yau San's careful eye

It soon became apparent that after only four years of training that Chan Heung was again ready to move onto higher levels. In only ten years he had already reached a level of skill that had taken Yuen Woo and Li Yau-San twenty years to attain, The young man's potential was so great that Li Yau San suggested a Shaolin monk named Choy Fok, who lived as a recluse on Lau Fu mountain, as the best teacher for Chan Heung.

Realizing that reaching his highest potential in kung-fu meant finding the monk and becoming his disciple, Chan Heung set out on the long trek to Lau Fu Mountain. Chan Heung sought out anyone who could help him find Choy Fok. Finally he located the monk and handed him a letter of recommendation from Li Yau-San. After waiting patiently to be accepted as Choy Fok's disciple, Chan Heung was stunned when Choy Fok turned him down. It seemed that the monk was intent on being left alone to cultivate Buddhism, and no longer wished to teach martial arts. Finally, after much begging from Chan Heung, Choy Fok agreed to take the young man as a student, but only to study Buddhism. So, Chan Heung studied Buddhism for many hours a day, and practiced his martial arts well into the night.

Early one morning Chan Heung was practicing his kung-fu, leg sweeping heavy bamboo trees, and kicking up stones into the air, then smashing them before they hit the ground. Suddenly, the monk appeared and asked him if that was the best that he could do. Chan Heung was shocked when Choy Fok pointed to a large rock weighing about eighty pounds, and told him to kick it twelve feet. Bracing himself, the student exerted all of his strength as his foot crashed against the rock, sending it barely twelve feet away. Instead of giving the expected compliment, Choy Fok placed his foot under the heavy rock and effortlessly propelled it through the air. Chan Heung was awestruck by this demonstration of superpower. Again he begged Choy Fok to accept him as a martial arts disciple. This time the monk agreed, and for eight years Choy Fok taught Chan Heung both the way of Buddhism, and the way of kung-fu.

When he was twenty-nine, Chan Heung left the monk and went back to his village where he spent the next two years revising and refining all that he had learned from Choy Fok. Chan Heung had now developed a new system of kung-fu. In 1836 he formally established the Choy Lay Fut system, naming it in honor of his two principal teachers, Choy Fok and Li Yau-San, and using the word "Fut" which means Buddha in Chinese, to pay homage to his uncle, Yuen Woo, and to the Shaolin roots of the new system.

Today, though still relatively rare outside of China, Choy Lay Fut is one of the most popular and widely practiced styles of kung-fu in mainland China.

Chan Heung' s Being a clan teacher in KingMui village, he chose to take in Jeong Yim, a fugitive wanted by the Manchu authorities, possibly for avoiding conscription. Chan Heung began to teach Jeong Yim Calligraphy and Literature, which led to him being given the title "SIFU". Jeong Yim - Who may have been known as JEONG HUNG SING - was then taught the Shaolin style FUT GAR KUNG FU by Lay Yau San, Choy Ah Fook and Ching Cho.

By the Time Jeong Hung Sing had trained under these three masters, his kung fu had become somewhat distinct. Observers would say that some techniques resembled those of Lau Gar… Others resembled CHOY GAR… and naturally much remained in the roots of FUT GAR. Jeong Hung Sing decided to name his style after the combined names of these styles: CHOY LAY FUT! It is important to note that the three forms known today as the three Buck Sing forms were taught to Jeong Yim Hung Sing by his masters and he was possibly not taught any weapons.

Having formulated and named this new Kung Fu style, Jeong Hung Sing decided to head for the city of FUT SAN to establish and teach it. Before leaving however, he taught CHOY LAY FUT to CHAN KOON PAK who in turn taught it to CHAN YIU CHI and established the lineage that survived in SUN WUI district, and continues to CHAN YONG FA in Sydney Australia. Once his Gwoon was established in FUTSAN, Jeong Hung Sing taught Lui Chan, Who in turn taught TAM SAM. THIS IS THE LINEAGE OF TRUE CHOY LAY FUT THAT WAS ESTABLISHED IN GUANGZHOU.

There is little known of what then became of Jeong Hung Sing. We know of no photo or portrait in existence, and no reported gravesite.

In summarising, Kong Hing stated clearly that FUT SAN was the home of Choy Lay Fut, and spoke of a NEW Choy Lay Fut association that was being formed to propagate this true history.

Footnote:
During the visit to the Buck Sing Gwoon Melbourne by Leong Ji, He told us that the most common known history of Choy Lay Fut is incorrect, stating that:

"Chang Hung was not the sole founder of Choy Lay Fut but rather the person who planted the seed of its true development.
Jeong Hung Sing, one of Chan Heung's short-term students, is really credited developing Choy Lay Fut Hung Sing style to the deadly and lethal level of skill that it is today.

Leong Ji said, "The first Hung Sing Gwoon was opened in Fut San…" "Chan Heung was not a Kung Fu master, He was a scholar, and did he not develop the art of Choy Lay Fut…" "It was Jeong Hung Sing who developed Choy Lay Fut."

[extrajoseph]

Frank, You forgot to highlight this bit:

For the record, we, The Buck Sing Gwoon, maintain Chan Heung as the founder of Choy Lay Fut.

[hskwarrior]

for the record, we, the buck sing gwoon, maintain chan heung as the founder of choy lay fut.


so do we. We also say cheung hung sing was co-founder. And so did the xinhui government site. However, facebook is one helluva way to make contact with many clf masters from all branches and i'm friends with many buk sing masters, some of whom i've spoken to about this history. i'm not concerned with your stance on the subject.

[CLFNole]

Not that I want to get into this mess but playing devils advocate...why would you acknowledge Jeung Yim as co-founder to a style as you have said has nothing in common with Chan Heung's? You have always maintained there are no forms with any connection. If there was little to no connection why not just be hung sing kuen a style that stands on its own? Why share credit and style name with Chan Heung? It really doesn't make much sense.

[hskwarrior]

Not that I want to get into this mess but playing devils advocate...why would you acknowledge Jeung Yim as co-founder to a style as you have said has nothing in common with Chan Heung's? You have always maintained there are no forms with any connection. If there was little to no connection why not just be hung sing kuen a style that stands on its own? Why share credit and style name with Chan Heung? It really doesn't make much sense.

The connection to chan heung cannot be denied. We acknowledge Cheung Yim as being a short time student of Chan Heung. however, our history says Cheung Yim reunited with Chan Heung and it was during this meeting that they further developed Choy Lee Fut with Ching Cho's Fut Gar Kuen. even king mui's government webpage says Cheung Yim passed on Ching Cho's gung fu. And since Choy Lee Fut was improved upon by Cheung Yim, our stance is that makes cheung Yim a co-founder of sorts. I've long since let that go, because true or not, it doesn't make or break us.

Hung Sing Kuen, Fut Gar Jing Jung is what some of our elders have said is what we were called before using the CLF name. I don't think i was alive when that decision was made. My sifu has been using "Hung Sing Kuen" for the longest time now and he doesn't feel like being insulted by Chan Heung lineages. From us to fut san, Chan Family students have acknowledged what we practice is not their Choy Lee Fut. We are tired of hearing the arrogance from so many of them because we don't practice the same material. Buk Sing, who, comes from Hung Sing, still calls what they do as "Fut Gar". With the way things are going, I'm slowly resorting to eliminate "CLF" out of our name because of them. Hung Sing Kuen is what we do, regardless if we are of the Choy Lee Fut family or not.

In the end, we all have the CLF attachment regardless of branch or lineage. i think its a little too far gone to make a major change. And, historically its agreed upon that both chan heung and cheung yim developed their branches SEPARATELY. why didn't they do it together? IDK. Why did they agree to develop CLF separately? IDK that either. is it something I made up. Not at all. far from that.

will the animosity ever change? IDK. but i do feel that when CLF is thought of as Chan Heung, Cheung Yim, and Tam Sam........that's when we could grow along together. does it really matter to me if cheung yim was a CLF co-founder? NOT AT ALL. Because as i've said, we don't practice forms that are found within any chan family lineage going back to chan heung.

[CLFNole]

My only problem with the Jeung Yim and Chan Heung reunited angle is this...if they came back together and further developed the style what still the differences? The CLF from Chan Heung's line has noticeably more active footwork when compared to the Futsan material. Not that this makes a difference for use but if the 2 really developed the style together you would think there would be more similarity and crossover. For example when Tam Sam and Ku Yu Cheung exchanged students crossover was evident in later generations. But when it comes to Chan family style vs Futsan they seem more and more different aside from the seeds.

[hskwarrior]

let me put it this way.....

Choy lee fut was established in 1836 and this is the same year Cheung Yim came to Chan Heung. From 1836 to 1875 Chan Heung continually developed his Choy Lee Fut. However, Cheung Yim only trained in it from 1836-1841. Sure we started with CLF but ended with Fut Gar, which is the only style Cheung Yim fully completed. To me, that makes sense to why Fut San and buk sing claims Fut Gar over CLF.

[hskwarrior]

My only problem with the Jeung Yim and Chan Heung reunited angle is this...if they came back together and further developed the style what still the differences? The CLF from Chan Heung's line has noticeably more active footwork when compared to the Futsan material. Not that this makes a difference for use but if the 2 really developed the style together you would think there would be more similarity and crossover. For example when Tam Sam and Ku Yu Cheung exchanged students crossover was evident in later generations. But when it comes to Chan family style vs Futsan they seem more and more different aside from the seeds.

The fact that Tam Sam exchanged students with Ku Yu Jeung didn't change the entire system. In buk Sing you have OG Fut San buk Sing, then you have a generation of those who contain elements of Ku Yu Jeung. You must remember, changing his school from Hung Sing to Buk Sing was not Tam Sam's choice. it was during Chui Cheung's era that the name changed. Tam Sam was said to be pro Hung Sing.

For me, Fut San has different flavor, energy, approach, flow, and feel in comparison to anything from Chan Heung's lineage. not forgetting, the footwork, forms, whats inside the forms including Hoi Jong's are also different. While Your school, Sam Ng's school, or any other school with deeper connections to chan heung than the fut san hung sing kwoon, can all relate to each forms wise, this is not so for fut san. Cheung Yim and his disciples were fighters and forms practice and retention were less important than knowing how to use the gung fu. part of the change in development is Cheung Yim's personal development of his gung fu was minus Chan Heung's input and the same for Chan Heung.

regardless, it is what it is. I'm not the genesis of this drama, i'm just a participant.

[extrajoseph]

regardless, it is what it is. I'm not the genesis of this drama, i'm just a participant.

Frank, You just hit it on the nail, a couple of elders tried to divide us so they can rule, be smart like the Laceys, don't fall for it.

[hskwarrior]

Frank, You just hit it on the nail, a couple of elders tried to divide us so they can rule, be smart like the Laceys, don't fall for it.

I will never fall for YOUR bs......did we forget dave lacey giving it to you on his webpage? LOL

you and your elders are doing further damage to the legacy of chan heung, co founder cheung hung sing, and tam sam.

[extrajoseph]

I will never fall for YOUR bs......did we forget dave lacey giving it to you on his webpage? LOL

you and your elders are doing further damage to the legacy of chan heung, co founder cheung hung sing, and tam sam.

Accusations are easily made, can you please tell me how we are doing this? Tam Sam is not even in the picture,

[hskwarrior]

can you please tell me how we are doing this? Tam Sam is not even in the picture,

Chan Heung, Cheung Hung Sing, and TAM SAM is what makes up the CHOY LEE FUT system TODAY.
Tam Sam will NOT be left out of the picture. he is just as important to CLF as Chan Heung and Cheung Hung Sing.

No, i won't tell you how you and your elders are doing further damage to the legacy of Chan Heung.
you need to discover that for yourself.

[extrajoseph]

So you just made an accusation and I have to give you the reason. LOL.

[hskwarrior]

So you just made an accusation and I have to give you the reason. LOL.

Stop trying to mislead people. you are shaming your elders

[hskwarrior]

and I have to give you the reason.

Doofus, I said YOU will have to discover for yourself what they or you are doing to CLF.
where did you misunderstand that? Maybe your english isn't so good. IDK.
I never asked you to tell me what you or your elders are doing. pay attention.

[extrajoseph]

Chan Heung, Cheung Hung Sing, and TAM SAM is what makes up the CHOY LEE FUT system TODAY.
Tam Sam will NOT be left out of the picture. he is just as important to CLF as Chan Heung and Cheung Hung Sing.

No, i won't tell you how you and your elders are doing further damage to the legacy of Chan Heung.
you need to discover that for yourself.

Frank, Cheung Yim and Tam Sam are both important figures in the development and spread of CLF but they are not the original founder, Chan Heung was. If you want to change the history of CLF, then you'll need better arguments and evidence to support your view, otherwise it would just be your hearsay.

Likewise, if you are going to accuse us of doing further damage to the legacy of Chan Heung, then you'll need to give us your reasons for saying so, otherwise it would just be your "hot air".

[FongSung]

Interesting thread on history.
The attached photo show's some of the Todai of Cho Dak Sing, I was told they were famous CLF players (Choy Jiong, Tam Jee, Lee Yen), does anyone recognise the names and could reply with some infomation?

I believe the flag say's:


BAK YEE
CHO DAK SING

TODAI

CHOY JIONG

TAM JEE - LEE YEN - CHO CHUEN


GWOON

Thanks

[hskwarrior]

Frank, Cheung Yim and Tam Sam are both important figures in the development and spread of CLF but they are not the original founder,

Chan Heung is the founder of "CLF" . Cheung Hung Sing is the founder of "HUNG SING CHOY LEE FUT" and co-founder of CLF. Tam Sam is the founder of Buk Sing Choy Lee Fut.
Chan Heung had absolutely NOTHING to do with the development of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut nor Buk Sing Choy Lee Fut.
YOU can go ahead and deny HSCLF and BSCLF all you like. NOT ME. I will keep pushing the concept of CLF "TODAY" is NOT CLF without HSCLF and BSCLF.
ALL THREE PEOPLE MENTIONED......are responsible for the CHOY LEE FUT of TODAY. PERIOD.


Likewise, if you are going to accuse us of doing further damage to the legacy of Chan Heung, then you'll need to give us your reasons for saying so, otherwise it would just be your "hot air".

you guys are doing it as we speak......open your eyes and see for yourself. Stop acting like a damsel in distress. no one will save you. save yourselves and stop ruining, lying, and hating. it's not good for any CLF lineage.

YOU are not relevant to HSCLF and BSCLF. stick to your lineage and leave the others alone. YOU are destroying the image and reputation that these three "CLF" founders have worked so hard to promote.

8980

[extrajoseph]

Interesting thread on history.
The attached photo show's some of the Todai of Cho Dak Sing, I was told they were famous CLF players (Choy Jiong, Tam Jee, Lee Yen), does anyone recognise the names and could reply with some infomation?

I believe the flag say's:


BAK YEE
CHO DAK SING

TODAI

CHOY JIONG

TAM JEE - LEE YEN - CHO CHUEN


GWOON

Thanks

Cao De-Sheng (Cho Dak-Sing) is an interesting master, his father Cao He-Shun studied with Chan Heung and later one he learned Wing Chun from Yi Jin and created Wing Chun Choy Lee Fut.

[hskwarrior]

check it out here https://www.facebook.com/WingChun.BCCG.MY/posts/338863092851092

[extrajoseph]

Chan Heung is the founder of "CLF" . Cheung Hung Sing is the founder of "HUNG SING CHOY LEE FUT". Tam Sam is the founder of Buk Sing Choy Lee Fut.
Chan Heung had absolutely NOTHING to do with the development of Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut nor Buk Sing Choy Lee Fut.
YOU can go ahead and deny HSCLF and BSCLF all you like. NOT ME. I will keep pushing the concept of CLF "TODAY" is NOT CLF without HSCLF and BSCLF.
ALL THREE PEOPLE MENTIONED......are responsible for the CHOY LEE FUT of TODAY. PERIOD.



you guys are doing it as we speak......open your eyes and see for yourself. Stop acting like a damsel in distress. no one will save you. save yourselves and stop ruining, lying, and hating. it's not good for any CLF lineage.

YOU are not relevant to HSCLF and BSCLF. stick to your lineage and leave the others alone. YOU are destroying the image and reputation that these three "CLF" founders have worked so hard to promote.

8980

The couplet, on the alter in the middle of the picture showed, is made of the character "Ying-Xiong" 英雄, which meas hero and it refers to the Heroic Hung Sing 雄勝 branch of CLF, which existed before Great Victory Hung Sing 鴻勝 and Buk Sing 北勝 came much later. Your use of the Victory to the Hung Men Hung Sing 洪勝 is neither for CLF nor for Cheung Yim's nick name, because that would have caused a lot of unnecessary trouble from the Qing government, because it was viewed as a revolutionary slogan at the time.

[hskwarrior]

The couplet, on the alter in the middle of the picture showed, is made of the character "Ying-Xiong" 英雄, which meas hero and it refers to the Heroic Hung Sing 雄勝 branch of CLF, which existed before Great Victory Hung Sing 鴻勝 and Buk Sing 北勝 came much later. Your use of the Victory to the Hung Men Hung Sing 洪勝 is neither for CLF nor for Cheung Yim's nick name, because that would have caused a lot of unnecessary trouble from the Qing government, because it was viewed as a revolutionary slogan at the time.

****, it really took you more than 20 minutes the write two sentences? really? must be one finger typing

[extrajoseph]

8981
Another interesting thing about this picture is that it says Cui Zhang 崔章 (Choy Jiong) is a disciple of Cao De-Sheng, I wonder if it is the same Cui Zhang, who is the father of Tsui Kwong-Yuen, who passed away recently. Tsui Kwong-Yuen promoted the idea of Cheung Yim was a co-founder of CLF and his nick name was "Victory to the Hung Men" Hung Sing and not Great Victory Hung Sing. Frank seems to be swept away by this hearsay.

[hskwarrior]

which existed before Great Victory Hung Sing 鴻勝 and Buk Sing 北勝 came much later.

see....you're still misleading people you fakking liar. haha..... you really have no shame huh? ****

So "雄勝" came before 鴻勝?
Buk Sing came into play in the late 30's. prior to that, TAM SAM was 洪勝 /鴻勝. There is even a newspaper article interview of Tam Sam and in it it shows tam sam's school name as 洪勝.
so, i'm not going to waste time explaining things to you. you've cut off your own ears and cannot hear the truth.

[hskwarrior]

Tsui Kwong-Yuen promoted the idea of Cheung Yim was a co-founder of CLF and his nick name was "Victory to the Hung Men" Hung Sing and not Great Victory Hung Sing. Frank seems to be swept away by this hearsay.

you're funny but not that funny. you can keep disbelieving the truth all you like. I mean YOU did falsely claim you discovered monk choy fook was monk ching cho's alternate ego, right?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[hskwarrior]

Your use of the Victory to the Hung Men Hung Sing 洪勝 is neither for CLF nor for Cheung Yim's nick name, because that would have caused a lot of unnecessary trouble from the Qing government, because it was viewed as a revolutionary slogan at the time.

Hey Mr Misleading King, so are you actually going to try and claim that 洪勝 was NEVER used by anyone or anything? because it would bring too much trouble? right? this is what you're saying?

[extrajoseph]

Hey Mr Misleading King, so are you actually going to try and claim that 洪勝 was NEVER used by anyone or anything? because it would bring too much trouble? right? this is what you're saying?
Yes that is what I am saying because it would be stupid to use "Victory to the Hung Men" Hung Sing at the time, when Hung Men was an organization that tried to overturn the Qing and reinstate the Ming rule. You can use it NOW but don't try to tell us that Cheung Yim used it in his time.

[extrajoseph]

****, it really took you more than 20 minutes the write two sentences? really? must be one finger typing

Unlike you Frank, I think before I type.

[hskwarrior]

Yes that is what I am saying because it would be stupid to use "Victory to the Hung Men" Hung Sing at the time, when Hung Men was an organization that tried to overturn the Qing and reinstate the Ming rule. You can use it NOW but don't try to tell us that Cheung Yim used it in his time.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ok. if that's what you wish to tell yourself, that's your business.

but the world is seeing your intentional misleadings. you should be proud of yourself. your elders should be proud of your deceit.

[CLFNole]

For me it's simply this:

Chan Heung - Founder of CLF
Jeung Yim - Founder of Hung Sing branch
Tam Sam - Founder of Buk Sing branch.

The co-founder theory doesn't hold water for me becuase where can you see Jeung Yim's mark on Chan Heung's style. If they "co-founded" the style there would be more crossover and similarity between the branches. What exactly was "co-founded"?

Both sides have holes in their histories the Choy Fook is Ching Cho thing on the Chan side and the Jeung Yim studied with Lay Yau San on the Hung Sing side.

[hskwarrior]

Jeung Yim studied with Lay Yau San on the Hung Sing side.

CLFNOLE, why is it so hard to believe that Cheung Yim learned from Lay Yau San? Now, if he was a creation of the King Mui lineage then i can see how this could be an issue. however, the idea that lay yau san only taught the lee gar system to Chan Heung and no one else is ridiculous to me. Lay yau san was in the general area teaching kung fu. it's not at all off base. thinking Chan Heung was Lay Yau San's only disciple doesn't set well at all.
but if that's not what you're meaning, then why think it impossible for Cheung Yim to study lee gar as a kid? i mean there is so much about both chan heung and cheung yim's lives that we are totally clueless to, and since Fut San re-emerged they have information about the founder of my lineage that others wouldn't have. I'm not going to poo poo anything unless its completely ludicrous like chan heung killing a tiger with his bare hands or wait....was it a coat hanger? still....that's straight BS.


The co-founder theory doesn't hold water for me becuase where can you see Jeung Yim's mark on Chan Heung's style

where? in his later material. even the government site for Xin Hui lists things what they worked on together. do i believe it? no. but anything's possible.

[CLFNole]

The reason I don't believe is the reason I don't believe Choy Fook was Ching Cho...it's convenient. How convenient that all of a sudden Choy Fook is Ching Cho so this debunks the hung sing side claims. How convenient that as a child Jeung Yim trains with Lay Yau San so now he shares more teachers with Chan Heung yet Lay Yau San's style which was known for its footwork is not pronounced in Jeung Yim's style. Everyone wants to make their side look better for whatever reason there is always and agenda behind things such as moving up a generation. I always maintain if you are comfortable in your own skin and ability who cares what generation you are?

And just becuase the Chinese Government says something it means nothing...according to their history books Tianamen Square never happened.

[hskwarrior]

The reason I don't believe is the reason I don't believe Choy Fook was Ching Cho...it's convenient.

its not convenient. it's outright THEFT. IDENTITY THEFT.


How convenient that as a child Jeung Yim trains with Lay Yau San so now he shares more teachers with Chan Heung yet Lay Yau San's style which was known for its footwork is not pronounced in Jeung Yim's style.

Cheung Yim never completed Lee Gar and he was under 12 years old when he trained under Lee Yau San. anything he learned from Lee Yau San would have been pushed to the back by the choy lee fut cheung hung sing was learning. Still, we don't use the idea of Cheung Hung Sing learning from Lee Yau San against anything for any reason. you haven't heard anyone say "Cheung Yim was Chan Heung's lee gar classmate". furthermore, discounting the new information coming from a once defunct lineage such as fut san hung sing without further research is unfair in my book. Does it matter today if Cheung Yim did or didn't learn from Lee Yau San? not at all. we're not claming to teach Lee Gar. Fut Gar Kuen is the primary system of Cheung Yim with Lee Gar and Choy Lee Fut as back up systems because he never completed the latter styles.


and just becuase the Chinese Government says something it means nothing...according to their history books Tianamen Square never happened.

exactly. For example, today people are claiming that Monk Choy Fook studied under guys who existed "600" years before Choy Fook was born. how does that happen?

Just because people don't believe something, doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't true either. But in the case of Choy Fook's training 600 years before he was born, if anyone believes THAT, then I have the golden gate bridge to sell you

[hskwarrior]

Why I will never follow the Chan Heung’s lineages account of Fut San Hung Sing Hist

There is controversy over Chan Heung’s actual birth year. Is it 1815, or 1806?

King Mui lineage claims Cheung Yim was not the first Hung Sing in Fut San. But they never tried to explain that the two Hung Sing names were h0monyms, sure they sounded alike but their make up and meaning were not the same. if Cheung Hung Sing was using "Holy One" as his name then sure, its possible chan din foon opened in fut san, even though there is no mention of him in fut san or its history. but cheung hung sing was using HUNG VICTORY and not "Holy one" or "GREAT SAGE" or whatever.

The King Mui lineages tried to claim the Green Grass Monk didn’t exist. Then after the online debate over the Green Grass Monk someone came out and claimed they found the true identity of the Green Grass Monk and that it was Chan Heung’s 3rd teacher Monk Choy Fook. They further claim Ching Cho is a Buddhist temple name. However, I know this isn’t true because the GG name isn’t Buddhist at all and its true origins rest in the Secret Society. I’ve even read someone’s comments about if the Green Grass Monk could be applied to Chan Heung, then yes GGM existed. But, if we apply it to Cheung Hung Sing, then no he didn’t exist, he’s just a myth. You don’t see what I see here?

When asked what is the time frame that Cheung Hung Sing studied under Chan Heung? They say 1867, but we say 1836 The city of Fut San has Cheung Hung Sing’s school registered in 1851. King Mui claims 1867 and gives no explanation as to how Cheung Hung Sing had his school already opened 16 years before their claim. At the same time, King Mui tries to claim Chan Heung was responsible for sending Cheung Hung Sing to Fut San. However it is written by Chan Heung that Cheung Hung Sing “RETURNED” to fut san in 1867 to “RE-OPEN” the school he previously closed down because of the Tai Ping Rebellion.

They claim that monk Choy Fook (circa 19th century) studied under Jue Yuan Monk 觉远上人, Yi Guan Monk 一贯禅师, Li Sou 李叟, Bai Yu Feng 白玉峰 who all existed in the 13th century. That’s 600years. This is complete horse pucky and should be immediately removed from Choy Fook’s history. Choy Fook really learned from someone who existed 600 years prior his birth? Really?
Choy Gau Yee is the only person who Choy Fook could have learned from and Choy Gau Yee is connected to Choy Gar. But, more than once, king mui lineages tried to claim that Choy Fook’s teachers were the one’s who lived 600 years earlier so he taught more than just Choy Gar. RIIIIIIIIIGHT!!!!!

Chan Heung killed a tiger with his bare hands, and was never injured, right? RIIIIIIIGHT. Then there’s the story of Chan Heung killing the tiger with a coat hanger. A coat hanger? What? I thought it was with his bare hands?!?!? Then the tiger skin was stolen……..so no evidence of that. Hmmmmm ok

King Mui lineages claim Chan Heung sent Cheung Hung Sing to fut san, but fails to explain how he was able to re-open a school that he never opened if he wasn’t already there before.
The King Mui lineage tries to feed us stories like Cheung Hung Sing’s father was a hung gar guy and he name Cheung Yim as “Hung Sing” in reference to “Hung Gar Victory” hahahahaha NONSENSE.
Our elders were fed some bs when Hu Van Cheuk tried to give Lun Chee a copy of Chan Yiu Chi’s historical account and Lun Chee immediately dismissed it.

Chan Heung took Cheung Yim with him everywhere including places like Singapore and established schools there. But in the entire history of Singapore there’s only been one CLF school there and that is of the Lee Yan lineage in the 1960’s.

King Mui lineages seem to be confused to where Chan Yuen Wu was teaching.

King Mui lineages seem to be confused to how Chan Heung came to meet Lee Yau San and the circumstances around that.

King Mui lineages are not in agreement to their Hung Sing name and whether or not it was connected to Hung Wu, or the southern sea patron saint who went by the name of “Hung Sheng”.
The King Mui lineages don’t agree to the circumstances of chan heung meeting Choy Fook.

You don't even know the real birthdate of Chan Koon Pak.

I could probably keep going but I won’t. I know people will get the idea that I’m not going to trust a lineage with so many holes in their own history. I’m going to keep trusting my lineage on the history according to my lineage.

[CLFNole]

To say both sides don't have holes in their stories is laughable at best, which is why I care little about history. I care that there is a CLF style that I practice and try to promote.

[CLFNole]

History is about pushing agendas nowadays.

[hskwarrior]

To say both sides don't have holes in their stories is laughable at best, which is why I care little about history. I care that there is a CLF style that I practice and try to promote.

I agree about the holes. This is why i research so much so i can righteously fill them in with the truth. For example, my sifu and I debunked the "HUNG SING" theory that Cheung Yim was killed early on in his life (33years old) when he was at a dock waiting to board a ship to see Chan Heung. a fight breaks out and Cheung yim goes to break it up then they turn on him. he defeats them with just an umbrella. THIS is complete BS because Chan Ngua Sing didn't start training with Cheung Yim until 1884. there's no way cheung yim could have died in the 1850's and came back to train Chan Ngau Sing for the next 9 years.

Still, the great thing that makes us human beings is that you don't have to care about something as trivial as history. But, good thing that's not for everyone. We will always find SOMEONE interested in history and since the history is my passion, I plan to have answers for the future generations instead of NO ANSWERS. or saying "IDK". I can't live with that. maybe you can. maybe others too. but there will be more people in the future that WILL care. I want to make those people's lives easier by doing the foot work for them.

[hskwarrior]

History is about pushing agendas nowadays.

Not for me. I came from a place where we knew very little about our own family. I didn't like that feeling. Today is a different story. I've managed to document much of my direct lineages history as well as going back to Fut San. I am not from, nor have i ever learned king mui lineage material so i have no ill feelings towards Chan Heung. In fact, i know HE didn't mess this thing up. its who came after him that did. it's those who arrogantly throw insults at others for not being their direct lineage. it's those like extrajoseph who intentionally mislead people.

I will state this on everything i love in this world.......Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut has no agenda to overthrow Chan Heung. In my whole time as a HSCLF student (30+ years) I've never had a conversation with a hung sing disciple that wants to overthrow chan heung, or has some "AGENDA" as you put it. All we want to do is tell our history as we know it. not what the guy across the street has to say. the idea of someone having an "AGENDA" or being suspected of having one needs a little more introspection by the ones making "AGENDA" claims.

What does Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut gain by disputing the King Mui version of our own history? absolutely NOTHING. NADDA. WALA. ZIPPO. Zilch. Cheung Hung Sing is recognized as one of southern China's greatest fighers. He personally built his own fame or notoriety. and he became to most important person in the history of Choy Lee Fut.

Fut San Hung Sing lineages acknowledge Chan Heung as one of Cheung Yim's teachers. But, their personal opinion is "what does he have to do with us?". This should be entirely evident by the lack of Chan Heung's image on the walls of any pure Fut San Hung Sing lineage today. so, here we go back to the question, "why claim CLF?" if chan heung didn't have much to do with us? I'm 5th generation Fut San, the generations before mine should be able to answer that. Me, I'm just a participant of THIS generation as we discover more about our lineage. It's also like the universe, we are only recently find new planets out there. Before we discovered this, we had no idea any more were out there. did this mean they didn't exist just cause we didn't know? NOT AT ALL. that's why its called "DISCOVERY".

[CLFNole]

You may have no agenda but you are kidding yourself if you don't think there are other hung sing people that have an agenda against the Chan Family. It goes both ways but its not one-sided.

[hskwarrior]

You may have no agenda but you are kidding yourself if you don't think there are other hung sing people that have an agenda against the Chan Family. It goes both ways but its not one-sided.

Have you heard of someone's agenda in Hung Sing? Not me. If i knew who had an agenda, i'd be against him in a heart beat. again, being from the fut san lineage, and from a very old lineage, i've never come across ONE comment about an agenda to overthrow Chan Heung. NEVER dude. i'd be suspicious too of certain people's agenda's. But my "agenda" is just to discover the truth about my lineage. period. I can't worry about other people. MY "Agenda" is pure and honest. This is my family. Again, i started out believing the king mui historical account. That's because we didn't know much about our own. My opinion changed after doing the research, not because of something someone was trying to put in my ear.

i don't deal with people who has an agenda. this is why i research ALONE. i want to come to my own conclusions.

[hskwarrior]

Yes that is what I am saying because it would be stupid to use "Victory to the Hung Men" Hung Sing at the time, when Hung Men was an organization that tried to overturn the Qing and reinstate the Ming rule. You can use it NOW but don't try to tell us that Cheung Yim used it in his time.

I AM telling you that he DID use that name!!!!! 100% i'm TELLING you that. i could care less about what you think when the FACT is this "洪勝" wasn't only used by Cheung Hung Sing. This name is STRICTLY a triad name. While NO ONE ELSE in Choy Lee Fut used this name, Cheung Hung Sing did. And it WASN'T a slogan used by Choy Lee Fut people either as it has been FALSELY CLAIMED.

EJ, YOU are such a natural born liar that you seem to forget that YOU...YOU dude...YOU tried telling me sme BULLSH1T that the only way Cheung Yim got the Hung Sing "洪勝" was because his father was a hung gar student and "Hung Sing" "洪勝" was a reference to Hung Gar. ROTFLMFFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no matter how you try to twist this, i know how to untwist it.

Again, Cheung Yim was the ONLY person in CLF to use the "洪勝" Hung Sing name.

YOU forget that your own people have said that when Cheung Yim returned to Fut San in 1867 to re-open his "洪勝" school, he needed to rename it. Therefore, 鴻勝 Hung Sing (Great Victory) was adopted by Cheung Hung Sing in 1867. Now, REMEMBER, YOU GUYS claimed Chan Heung was the one who sent Cheung Hung Sing to Fut San in 1867. Then EXPLAIN HIS PRESENCE IN FUT SAN IN 1851!!!!!!!!!!

YOU GUYS even claimed Cheung Hung Sing had to change his original schools name! What name was Cheung Yim using in 1851 it certainly wasn't "洪圣馆" or and you claim he wasn't using this "洪勝馆"? You guys support the notion that Cheung Yim changed his name to "鴻勝" Great Victory Hung Sing in 1867. So what name was Cheung Yim using then? Guess what, YOU WON'T HAVE A LEGITIMATE ANSWER. you dug your hole too deep.

In southern China, was this 洪勝 ever used by anyone or anything other than Cheung Hung Sing? YES. Was it by anyone in chan heung's choy lee fut? NOPE.

This 洪圣 Hung Sing and this 洪勝 Hung Sing are not by products of Choy Lee Fut. This 洪勝 is a triad name. and this hung sing 洪圣 is in regards to the southern sea patron saint "Hung Sheng". These two names are NOT related to each other.

8983

[hskwarrior]

JO JO Star, you say no one would have used the Hung Victory name right? especially not Cheung Hung Sing, right? But if it can apply to your lineage then of course it was used by you guys. LMAO
look at the lies.....you should be so proud.

陈享（1806年－1875年）字典英，号达亭，死後，被主理佛山鴻勝館之張炎譽為蔡李佛创始人，广东新会 崖門镇西京梅村人。享壽70歲

1823年，陈享投拜李家拳傳人李友山（新会七堡人）學習五形拳，棍法和腿功。1827年，陈享去罗浮山白 鹤观拜蔡家拳傳人蔡福學習十字拳。1839年-1840年间，陈享协助林则徐训练义勇水师。鸦片战争爆发，他的弟子投入广州虎门水师衙门，英勇抗击外来侵 略。

林則徐被免職後，陈享在1845年回到鄉間（新会崖西镇京梅村）開設洪勝主館。於是開始有洪拳的名稱。後派 傳人往廣東各地開分館，前後共44所。

陈享善八卦拳亦精五形拳，留下達亭八卦拳（又稱172式五形八卦拳）。

So NO ONE would have used that Hung Victory name at all huh? THEN WHY ARE THEY FALSELY CLAIMING THAT THEY USE THE 洪勝 INSTEAD OF 洪圣? i recall you recently saying no one would use the
洪勝 Hung Victory name. I guess it doesn't apply as long as it can be applied to Chan Heung, right? SO FULL OF SH1T

[FongSung]

Cao De-Sheng (Cho Dak-Sing) is an interesting master, his father Cao He-Shun studied with Chan Heung and later one he learned Wing Chun from Yi Jin and created Wing Chun Choy Lee Fut.

I was interested in the three Todai. I believe they went to Hong Kong?

Your information above is it from the internet or from your own group?
I am actually part of Cho Family so I know about Cho Shun / Cho Dak Sing / Cho Chuen, I am interested in what other groups have heard esp in CLF circles.

[hskwarrior]

JOJOStar (Extrajoseph) is so far from reality in regards to how secret societies operate it makes his attempts to mislead people crystal clear.
This fool attempts to mislead people by claiming there was NO WAY Cheung Hung Sing would have used Hung Victory name because it was too dangerous.
However, he failed to realize one doesn't need a visible signboard displaying the schools name to be the Hung Victory school. The only people that needed to know
the name of his school were members of the secret society. Cheung Hung Sing didn't need to have a business card, or a huge awning with his schools name on it.
JOJOSTAR is so caught up in this "COMMERCIAL" school concept stuff that he fails to see things right under his nose. well, that's the thing about secret societies,
the will do things right in front of you and still keep it a secret. Cheung Hung Sing is a Hung Mun guy, Hung Mun is notorious for using metaphors, ****nyms,
secret words and so forth and do things in the publics eye who would never be the wiser.

In San Francisco, the Hung Sing Kwoon didn't always have a signboard telling the world they teach martial arts in this building. But people still knew.
when our school was in the Hung Mun building in chinatown, we were known as the Red Door school because of what went on behind the red door.
traditional triad society type of schools were never public. you almost always had to be referred to join a school. When my sigung Jew Leong taught
at the Gee Tuk Sam Tuk there was no hung sing sign board. but everyone knew where my sigungs school was-regardless of the lack of a sign board.

So JOJOSTAR. your theory of it being too dangerous to use the Hung Victory name is null and void. The Hung Victory name was used during Cheung Hung Sing's time
by people other than Cheung Hung Sing as well. It belongs to Hung Mun and not Choy Lee Fut. Choy Lee Fut doesn't own the Hung Sing name, ours nor yours.
Again, null and void is your theory on it being too dangerous to use the Hung Victory name. The secret society does what it wants to do, and will do it either in your face or in a
fashion that's too ambiguous for you to comprehend unless you were a brother.