Question for the teachers

[jimbob]

I'm looking for a little advice on a situation.

I have a couple of friends I'm teaching/sharing taiji with. They're a married couple - both great people. She is a very good friend and a student of mine in another discipline (a good one). He I'm friends with through his wife. Also an amiable fellow. He's a wing chun teacher under a well known Sifu.

Whenever I try and show an application, or try and apply a concept to his wing chun framework, I'm met with a slightly smug smile and a "but this is what we'd do", or "this is the wing chun answer to that" or (especially if an application seems to resonate with him), I get a 10 minute diatribe on how fantastic and without peer his Sifu is.

I...don't....care.....

I've tried being nice and going along with it, remarking on his Sifu's obvious abilities. I've tried saying "Look - you're here because you wanted to learn taiji, but you seem to keep showing me how superior wing chun is". I've tried saying "this is taking time away from the lesson". Last week, when I wasn't feeling especially accommodating, I just said "Why are you here?".

He's always quick to acknowledge what i say (at least verbally), but it seems as though he has a lot of trouble not being the expert in the room.

I want to maintain a friendship with these people but I'm not sure what else I can say.

Has anyone dealt with a situation like this before? I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Thanks in advance

[-N-]

You could apply a Tai Chi approach and not provide resistance to the force of his ego.

Do you need to relate what you teach to his Wing Chun framework? Maybe don't bring it up at all.

If he brings it up, you can say "yes, you're right", and move on. Or if he's not right, you can say, "and you can look at it like this", then move on.

[-N-]

You can also add, "I want to be respectful of your time here and finish this next part. You know this from your Wing Chun, so you can play around with that when you practice later."

Do this pre-emptively as you introduce a new thing, so it doesn't become an ego challenge.

Hopefully, his WC doesn't pollute his wifes TC. If it does, you'll have to fix it the next time you see it. But do it through demo rather than talk.

If he wants to step in and prove you wrong, say "That's interesting. Let's try it". Demo on him so that he realizes his misperception. "Don't rub it in. And find something he did on which you can give positive verbal feedback. Then say "Thanks".

[David Jamieson]

Stop teaching them both.
Close your hands to them in the friendliest way possible.
:)

They're adults.

[GeneChing]

Zen teachers resolved that problem with a tale that goes back to the 8th century. Bruce Lee even paraphrased it by saying "Empty your cup so that it may be filled; become devoid to gain totality."

[YouKnowWho]

Has anyone dealt with a situation like this before? I'd like to hear your thoughts.
One of my students mentioned that one Taiji teacher had such a strong rooting that nobody can move him, I stopped teaching him after that. I can't teach anybody who doesn't have faith in me. How can I teach anybody the wrestling skill if he believes in "strong rooting" can be used to against all throws.

[sanjuro_ronin]

One of the reasons I stopped teaching was because I realized that people don't want to learn, they want to be taught that they are good and that they are doing ok, ie: to be catered to.
If they have prior MA experience and that experience is in a fighting system, you are usually ok because they value proof over anything else, real proof, the kind you get by actually sparring with a person.
If their prior MA experience is in a system where they did not fight, you are in some serious trouble UNLESS they are looking to learn to actually fight.

Yours is a tough situation because you are teaching friends, a cardinal no-no in my book ( and that goes typically for family).
Why?
Because friends and family never see you as anything other than who you are first and, in this case, a teacher second ( and a teacher of a hippie style like Taiji to boot).
The don't respect you as a teacher because they know you.

You have two choices and both MAY end badly:
Tell them to go.
Beat the crap out pf him and earn his respect.

Just saying...

[GeneChing]

Beat the crap out pf him and earn his respect.
The good ol' check and balance in MA, often referred to as 'dojo justice'. Of course, this is assuming that your tai chi can beat his WC, jimbob. If not, maybe you need to empty your cup. ;)

[GoldenBrain]

It's rare to find students who present themselves as an empty cup. As sanjuro said, most people just want to be catered to. I'll add to that and say that most people want validation of whatever they perceive themselves to be in whatever fantasy land they walk around in.

The quickest two paths have been mentioned. Either let them go, or work the guy over in sparring until he either leaves or you gain his respect.

A third is to break his ego down by running him through endless conditioning exercises and drills. In time he'll either leave because it's too much work or he'll be discouraged by not being able to challenge you. Or, his ego will melt away into void so you can begin to teach him. It won't take much time at all. Most of these ego types leave within a couple of weeks of this and then you can get back to teaching your class.

If you don't do any conditioning or sparring in your class then unfortunately you'll attract and collect these types of people.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Here is the thing, whenever I ever started a new style I would always remember that it was a NEW way of doing the SAME OLD thing, fighting.
Not better or worse just different.
Now, after awhile you MUST test if this new way is any good, or why do it?
There are times when I was able to dominate my fellow students even though they were in it longer than I was ( I was simply a better fighter, that's all) BUT even the few times I was able to "beat" the teacher, I was still able to learn a lot.
See, this is where some people fall away, when they operate under the false assumption that master MA means master fighter, it doesn't.
Look, I had a Shifu that was in his 60's when I was in my early 30's and was coming of a competitive run, ie" I was a trained fighter and there was NO WAY he was gonna beat me:
I was faster, stronger, more endurance and a better fighter BUT he was clearly a better MA and with a lot of value to teach.
Ali could beat the crap out of Dundee, Tyson out of D'Amato, when Steward taught his fighters they all ( probably) could have beaten him.
Good fighters recognize SKILL and don't expect that skill ALWAYS comes with fighting ability.
Its a good fine of course.

The point is that while fighters KNOW this, lay people or wannabe's do NOT and they have this stupid and ill conceived notion that a teacher must be the uber bad and until they get their ass handed to them, they just don't get it.

[YouKnowWho]

Beat the crap out pf him and earn his respect.

Many years ago a WC guy came to me and wanted to exchange his WC knowledge with my SC knowledge. I invited him in a wrestling match, After 15 rounds of wrestling with the score 15-0, he stopped mention about the exchange and became my student for the past 20 years.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Many years ago a WC guy came to me and wanted to exchange his WC knowledge with my SC knowledge. I invited him in a wrestling match, After 15 rounds of wrestling with the score 15-0, he stopped mention about the exchange and became my student for the past 20 years.

Been there BUT there are also those, like I posted above, that have knowledge beyond their ability to fight and they should not be dismissed because you/I may be able to beat them.

[GeneChing]

they should not be dismissed because you/I may be able to beat them. Very true, but I suspect jimbob's student friend ain't one of them.

[jimbob]

Thank you all for the replies.

Sanjuro - you hit some nails on the head for sure. The thing is, I'm not necessarily teaching them both how to fight. She wanted to learn taiji because she liked the movements and wanted to see what it felt like to learn. He said he wanted to add to his wing chun. I asked him at the beginning what he wanted and he said he needed to 'soften' what he was doing. I'm still not sure what he means by that, but I've been showing him how a few techniques can be added to the wing chun drills he teaches. I don't know if he thinks he can fight or not - again - I don't especially care. If he wants to test how well the taiji has 'softened' his wing chun he'll have to be a bit more specific with his parameters.

-N- - thank you for your suggestions. I used to let it go. I've taught long enough to know that ego is a given in our world and pushing back against some people doesn't get you anywhere. Just lately though his "wing chun has the answer to everything" attitude has hindered my teaching, which is why I've started setting boundaries.

Yes, I AM their friend - that was probably a mistake, but I'm happy to share things with people.

As for beating him up, well, I dislocated his shoulder 3 months ago and have felt bad ever since. And it hasn't stopped him from comparing what we're doing to what he does (which is fine if he can control himself).

I don't really want to hurt my friends!

[GeneChing]

I don't really want to hurt my friends!

We do not train to be merciful here. Mercy is for the weak. Here, in the streets, in competition: A man confronts you, he is the enemy. An enemy deserves no mercy. :mad:





OK, just kidding. :p

If he didn't learn after a dislocated shoulder, perhaps there is no teaching an old dog new tricks. FWIW, many of the elder WC masters that I have met are really soft in chisao. Chisao and tuisao are really very similar when it comes to listening skills and to listen well, you must speak softly. ;)

[-N-]

Chisao and tuisao are really very similar when it comes to listening skills and to listen well, you must speak softly. ;)

The real lesson his friend needs to learn :)

Reminds me of this lesson.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b76/Mr_Ugly/leaf.gif

[Kellen Bassette]

If you don't do any conditioning or sparring in your class then unfortunately you'll attract and collect these types of people.

Yup, got to weed them out. It's hard to tell someone how great you are when your gasping for breath. ;)

[GoldenBrain]

Yup, got to weed them out. It's hard to tell someone how great you are when your gasping for breath. ;)

Indeed! I like the way you worded that. :D

It's really the best way to ensure you have a dedicated bunch of students. The lazy and or big ego types just never want to put in the work. Every now and then you get a stubborn one, but by month 3 to 6 they usually leave as well.

Conditioning at the beginning of class before learning forms/techniques/sparring...etc., is really a win win for all the students. Not only does it help your students build strength and endurance which is at least half of what you're trying to do, but it ensures students concentrate more on technique than strength. They have to use correct technique because if you did the conditioning part right then they should be pretty tired by the time the learning part begins.

[YouKnowWho]

Yup, got to weed them out. It's hard to tell someone how great you are when your gasping for breath. ;)
All you need is to strike arms with them until they ask to stop. They will then realize that they are not as tough as they may think they are.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkmi_Jvgn6c&feature=youtu.be

[Faux Newbie]

I find keeping people busy to be very useful when dealing with such students.

I had one who had some previous tkd experience and experience in my style (taixuquan). If he didn't see the use in something, I could tell he was enduring that section of things.

In my class, everything is paired drills, starting with mirroring footwork with one partner leading and the other always trying to land first even though they departed last. I worked hard to minimize lecture and hone demonstration in order to keep everything moving.

In that case, for me, it was a patience game combined with always keeping the class moving, especially as I don't have the class work out first, I'd rather they wear themselves out on drills and give me better effort on those. One aspect of waist work that he really did not see as useful, which is tied to virtually everything I do, after about a month and a half, he suddenly got it, in relation to one throw. It paid off well in that case.

I have a rule, and I state it outright. It doesn't matter to me if, in your own fighting, you don't do things I do. But, you are taking my class, and so are others, and my kung fu is what is taught in my class, and my rules are to give people a chance to learn what they came for and to ensure their safety, and they are the rules in my class. What you do with it from there is your business. No unnecessary talking during drills, period, discussion at other times is to be class related as much as possible in order to not waste anyone's time, mine or others. If you are okay with that, then welcome to class, if not, I understand and wish you happy training.

The above general speech has worked with friends, experienced martial artists, and new people. Wives, not so much.

The other thing I often point out is, "this move here, it's in quite a few styles, here's how we do it," which saves time of people going "hey, in moo duk kwan, we do that this way."

However, if the class is form based, without drilling the individual moves in ways to deepen their understanding, then none of the above works well, at which point I suppose you could say, "If you are trying to develop flow in your other art, spend more time flowing here, connecting it to your other art is something you should do when you know more of this style."

[-N-]

I get a 10 minute diatribe on how fantastic and without peer his Sifu is.

If you don't want him around any more, you could suggest that he ask his teacher how best to soften his WC.

Tell him you think his teacher is much more qualified than you to help, and that you don't want to waste his time.

[-N-]

One of my students mentioned that one Taiji teacher had such a strong rooting that nobody can move him, I stopped teaching him after that. I can't teach anybody who doesn't have faith in me. How can I teach anybody the wrestling skill if he believes in "strong rooting" can be used to against all throws.

You could say, "Lucky for me you are not as good as your Tai Chi teacher". Then throw him on the ground.

:)

[mickey]

Greetings,

In this case you really need to listen to the need of your customer. He wanted to achieve three things:

1- To soften his Wing Chun

2- To soften his Wing Chun

3- To soften his Wing Chun

He said ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about wanting to learn Tai Chi Chuan combatives. So why go there with him? You don't even have to teach him the form. All you have to do is teach him a few movement sequences (stationary and with stepping -- don't dump it all on him at once) that he can practice on his own and teach him push hands so he can practice with his mate. He can work on those sequences by himself while you teach his mate. Every now and then you can check in, make refinements and then go back to teaching his mate. It is that easy. There is no stress for you nor him. If anything, he will ask you for more understanding.

mickey

[PalmStriker]

:) Have him look into a softer style of WingChun. Why not educate him?

[YouKnowWho]

:) Have him look into a softer style of WingChun. Why not educate him?

A: Dear master! I want to learn soft WC.
B: Go home and make love to your wife 5 times a day everyday and come back to see me in a week.
...
A: Dear master! I'm back. Can you teach me how to get hard again?

[-N-]

A: Dear master! I want to learn soft WC.
B: Go home and make love to your wife 5 times a day everyday and come back to see me in a week.
...
A: Dear master! I'm back. Can you teach me how to get hard again?

B: I have to show you everything??? Bring your wife.

[Kellen Bassette]

All you need is to strike arms with them until they ask to stop. They will then realize that they are not as tough as they may think they are.

I enjoy that drill, especially when you can see someone clearly wants to go softer, but still has too much pride to ask...eventually the pain overrides the pride. :D

[SteveLau]

I agree largely with Sanjuro's words. The key of the problem is that if a student does not buy the theories and techniques of the system he is training, he should leave. That means the student should have the bottom line before join in the class or somewhere during the training period of when he should quit. The instructor of the class should also pay attention to his students to see if they are interested in the training. I quited a school a year ago. And at least one of the instructors (he is the chairman of the school) awared that I was not much interested in learning Wing Chun. They also teach Tai Kwon Dao and Thai Boxing. I joined the school only to train up free fight skill. Sure I did not mind to learn other schools of art. And I have never gone too far in disrespect what were being taught there.



Regards,


KC
Hong Kong

[bawang]

I'm looking for a little advice on a situation.

I have a couple of friends I'm teaching/sharing taiji with. They're a married couple - both great people. She is a very good friend and a student of mine in another discipline (a good one). He I'm friends with through his wife. Also an amiable fellow. He's a wing chun teacher under a well known Sifu.

Whenever I try and show an application, or try and apply a concept to his wing chun framework, I'm met with a slightly smug smile and a "but this is what we'd do", or "this is the wing chun answer to that" or (especially if an application seems to resonate with him), I get a 10 minute diatribe on how fantastic and without peer his Sifu is.

I...don't....care.....

I've tried being nice and going along with it, remarking on his Sifu's obvious abilities. I've tried saying "Look - you're here because you wanted to learn taiji, but you seem to keep showing me how superior wing chun is". I've tried saying "this is taking time away from the lesson". Last week, when I wasn't feeling especially accommodating, I just said "Why are you here?".

He's always quick to acknowledge what i say (at least verbally), but it seems as though he has a lot of trouble not being the expert in the room.

I want to maintain a friendship with these people but I'm not sure what else I can say.

Has anyone dealt with a situation like this before? I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Thanks in advance
a) have sex with his wife.

b) look liek this
http://a0.att.hudong.com/34/07/01300001061969129057079722540.jpg

[Pipefighter]

All you need is to strike arms with them until they ask to stop. They will then realize that they are not as tough as they may think they are.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jkmi_Jvgn6c&feature=youtu.be

+1, from a student perspective
I didn't realize that drill could be used for that until just recently. That drill in the video is a great non confrontational way to break the ice, i think. My first SC class when we did that i though, "this guy is definitely tough! He isn't even struggling to overcome pain. This is just normal for him."
I had been using my bones throughout the drill. He had returned a few shots with bone since i was. Then at the end he explained goal was to toughen the muscles of the arm, not the bones near the wrist.
But me using bone didn't cause him to ease up, so it showed me a lot in under 2 min.

My thoughts from the student perspective.

[SteveLau]

SKM,

Your approach to other arts is the same as mine. Although I am certain that I will not learn other arts, it does not mean there is other one better or more suitable for me to learn. I take a fair and objective view of all these martial arts. Hung Gar is just one of them. The theory is valid here - there are other good stuffs out there, but they might not be suitable for you.

Also to supplement to my previous post on the original topic, the problem can happen in other settings like work place, friendship, etc. In general, if one dissatifies this, critizies that continuously, he should quit whatever he does not like. Or other people in the circle can end the relation. Because it is no good to retain such relation, no matter who is right in the matter.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong