Changes to this forum

[sanjuro_ronin]

So, we all agree that this forum needs to change and that we have far too many issues and dramas here, correct?

I am asking for suggestion, your top 3.

Remember this is a thread started by a moderator and a sure fire way to get your ass banned will be to start drama and try to highjack THIS thread, understood?

Now, the EASY way would be to lay down the moderator hammer on this forum and apply zero tolerance to every and any thread based on the sole discretion of the moderating staff BUT I think that all here will agree that is not the best way and deep down I know you guys want this forum to be a great one so I am giving you guys the benefit of the doubt and allowing you to tell US what you think needs to be done.

Fair enough?

[KPM]

First and foremost.....require people to post in a respectful manner. No taunting and baiting. No name-calling. No lineage bashing. All of that simply leads to long drawn-out "b!tchfest" threads. We've seen it over and over. When someone is being rude and inappropriate, call them on it and point out that it is NOT acceptable behavior! If they continue to repeat that behavior after several warnings, then ban them for a short period. It doesn't have to be a permanent ban. Just enough to get their attention. People should be expected to interact here just as they would in a face to face encounter in a public place where a certain level of politeness is expected.

Second....delete posts that are off-topic and are simply aimed at taunting or making fun at someone else and contribute nothing to the actual discussion.

Third...and I realize this one is a stretch and not likely to happen....but I would require everyone to use a real name so it is harder to hide behind the anonymity of a keyboard and just say anything you want. I think it seems more like a real conversation when you have a real named person to talk to and not a collection of letters or numbers, etc.

[BPWT..]

Only two from me:

1. Clean up and/or delete multiple threads about the same topic (e.g. Hendrik posting about 7 bows, etc, in hundreds of different threads :))
2. Ban people who persistently resort to Sifu-insulting comments if an argument doesn't go their way, or any name-calling that isn't obviously meant in jest

[Faux Newbie]

Ban only two groups:

1) people who CONSISTENTLY(a majority of their posts) post insulting or inflammatory posts, whether or not those posts include content.

2) people who consistently spam

The forum rules have always included respect, it's not that hard.

[kung fu fighter]

I say ban anyone who doesn't have anything or questions that's a productive contribution to the conversation of the thread. I agree with Keith as well "No taunting and baiting. No name-calling" ban anyone who consistently post insulting or inflammatory posts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Let me be clear that hurting another's feelings and being an ass does NOT get you banned.
Banning offences:
Racist remarks
Accusations of slander
Menacing words and posts ( threats): I will kill you, Gonna kick your ass, etc..
Posting private conversations without permission.
Coming back after being banned under another name/ISP without staff permission.
We tend to give a warning first ( except for the last one) because sometimes things are misunderstood but after that, the hammer goes down.
Now, what I am going to start to do is give ONE warning when a post is made insulting another poster PERSONALLY ( not his views but him/her) and after that if the thread is not edited by the poster, I will delete it.
Of course time is finite so if I miss a post be patient.

[Faux Newbie]

Let me be clear that hurting another's feelings and being an ass does NOT get you banned.
Banning offences:
Racist remarks
Accusations of slander
Menacing words and posts ( threats): I will kill you, Gonna kick your ass, etc..
Posting private conversations without permission.
Coming back after being banned under another name/ISP without staff permission.
We tend to give a warning first ( except for the last one) because sometimes things are misunderstood but after that, the hammer goes down.
Now, what I am going to start to do is give ONE warning when a post is made insulting another poster PERSONALLY ( not his views but him/her) and after that if the thread is not edited by the poster, I will delete it.
Of course time is finite so if I miss a post be patient.

If a member insults with every post, and there is more than one, the issue isn't hurting another's feelings, it is that they carry it everywhere, and detract from real conversation, and pretty much stalk around the forum doing so.

There is a reasonable amount of trolling and flaming. If you can find anyone on the forums who thinks that the wing chun forum is not way out of hand in that context, I'd have a ****ing heart attack.

Everyone likes to say "have a thick skin", but afterwards, when that doesn't solve it, people sure do seem to get banned. Just sayin'.:D

[Faux Newbie]

Stalking members should be bannable, shouldn't it?

[GeneChing]

WC has been very active lately. Although I must say that I've not received the amount of complaints that I'd expect given the number of flame wars (and no, that's not an invitation to register complaints with me). I'm okay with some verbal jousting of course, and if complaints are minimal, I'm not overly concerned. It does reflect very poorly upon the WC community here although anyone who wants to read through the flames can suss out the trolls from the genuine enthusiasts. The issue is, who really wants to read through all that?

That being said, I support sanjuro_ronin in his undertaking to get things sorted here. If, after being issued a warning, defiance continues, we're always happy to ban.

[Miguel]

I've modded on a few forums, when we couldn't ban people due to forum rules we went with an infraction system.

1. Trolling in an obvious way to get insulting replies or just repeating the same annoying thing over and over again to rile people up gives an infraction
2. Personal attacks and name calling gives an infraction
3. 3 infractions means loss of posting privileges for 1 month, 4 infractions for 3 months, 5 infractions 6 months

It was really rare that anyone would get a 3 month time-out, people who troll would generally phase out somewhere else since they just need attention and wouldn't be able to get it anymore, and people who use personal attacks are usually very involved with the board (a little too much emotionally) and one month off was usually enough to convince them that their attitude needed to change if they wanted to continue being a part of a community they already liked very much. The other thing that happened was the boards would slowly get calmer when agitators were out for a month, and it got everyone used to the new status quo being a friendlier forum overall. By the time trouble-makers came back they found their attitudes were a lot less appreciated than back when everyone was used to seeing their name-calling on a daily basis. Just my 2 cents...

[sanjuro_ronin]

If a member insults with every post, and there is more than one, the issue isn't hurting another's feelings, it is that they carry it everywhere, and detract from real conversation, and pretty much stalk around the forum doing so.

There is a reasonable amount of trolling and flaming. If you can find anyone on the forums who thinks that the wing chun forum is not way out of hand in that context, I'd have a ****ing heart attack.

Everyone likes to say "have a thick skin", but afterwards, when that doesn't solve it, people sure do seem to get banned. Just sayin'.:D

If ther eis a pattern of insult and trolling and very little contributing then yes, that will be dealt with.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Stalking members should be bannable, shouldn't it?

Very much so.

[Wayfaring]

Dunno, reading through this it seems like everyone needs to spend a week to create their "fursonas" and then this forum will transcend into the bliss of everyone making purring noises and petting each other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furry_fandom



Anthropomorphic animal characters created by furry fans, known as fursonas,[18] are used for role-playing in MUDs,[19] on internet forums, or on electronic mailing lists


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b6/GR_MFF2006_Fursuiters_BJ_Buttons_and_Cobalt_balloo ns.jpg/220px-GR_MFF2006_Fursuiters_BJ_Buttons_and_Cobalt_balloo ns.jpg

[JPinAZ]

I understand that this is probably not realistic mut my wish would be to only allow deletion of threads to happen by a moderator. If someone wants to delete a thread they started (most of the time because it's not going a way that makes them look good - poor excuse IMO), they should have to contact a moderator to do it. Then, if the mod sees there is nothing wrong with the thread, leave it up. And, if the mod sees the same few people continuously creating/deleting threads, then they'll see the real issue.
I say this because IMO, too many good posts and discussions get removed by those playing self-appointed forum mods with creating/deleting numerous threads.

That said, I feel heavy handed mod'g should be done with warnings and banning. I don't think it's necessary to go thru the hassle of continuous monitoring & deleting of every individual post on every single thread - that's asking too much of the mods. And frankly, if people need that level of baby sitting, then the subforum should simply just be shut down. A warning (or two) to the guilty party followed by banning if it keeps up will clean things up in a few weeks. Same goes for spamming.

[Faux Newbie]

Whining by people about expecting members who agreed to forum rules that allow for some respectful debate to actually live up to that agreement is still just whining.

Ban them and me for the same length of time, Sanjuro, just to be fair. It won't hurt me, I won't even post nasty messages on your facebook page!

Do it! You know you want to!

Are ya chicken?:D

[sanjuro_ronin]

I understand that this is probably not realistic mut my wish would be to only allow deletion of threads to happen by a moderator. If someone wants to delete a thread they started (most of the time because it's not going a way that makes them look good - poor excuse IMO), they should have to contact a moderator to do it. Then, if the mod sees there is nothing wrong with the thread, leave it up. And, if the mod sees the same few people continuously creating/deleting threads, then they'll see the real issue.
I say this because IMO, too many good posts and discussions get removed by those playing self-appointed forum mods with creating/deleting numerous threads.

That said, I feel heavy handed mod'g should be done with warnings and banning. I don't think it's necessary to go thru the hassle of continuous monitoring & deleting of every individual post on every single thread - that's asking too much of the mods. And frankly, if people need that level of baby sitting, then the subforum should simply just be shut down. A warning (or two) to the guilty party followed by banning if it keeps up will clean things up in a few weeks. Same goes for spamming.

When a thread is deleted, it can always be brought back by a mod or admin, regardless of who deletes it.
That said, we tend to respect the wishes of the thread originator on these matters.
Sure we have some guys that abuse it and whenever a thread doesn't go their way they delete it but then we ALL know who they are and why they did it so they obviously show a huge inferiority complex when they do that.

[GeneChing]

I've modded on a few forums, when we couldn't ban people due to forum rules we went with an infraction system. We reserve the right to ban anyone at anytime for any reason. This is a privately-owned forum and it exists due to the support of KungFuMagazine.com and Tiger Claw (https://www.tigerclaw.com/). At any point, the powers that be there may ask to have a member banned or a thread deleted. They may overrule all the mods, myself included. They may even opt to turn the forum off. Fortunately, they give me a lot of leeway to run this beast, so we're good with them on the whole. Nevertheless, the forum rules are guidelines and can be overruled from several directions. We are not bound by them to ban or delete.

If you are possessive of posts you made on threads that were deleted by the thread instigator, while I appreciate your concern and attention, you are investing way too much in this internet forum. It's just a web forum.

[JPinAZ]

When a thread is deleted, it can always be brought back by a mod or admin, regardless of who deletes it.
That said, we tend to respect the wishes of the thread originator on these matters.
Sure we have some guys that abuse it and whenever a thread doesn't go their way they delete it but then we ALL know who they are and why they did it so they obviously show a huge inferiority complex when they do that.


If you are possessive of posts you made on threads that were deleted by the thread instigator, while I appreciate your concern and attention, you are investing way too much in this internet forum. It's just a web forum.

Fair enough! And also why I just stated it was a wish and probably unrealistic. Not a big deal really in the big scheme of things :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fair enough! And also why I just stated it was a wish and probably unrealistic. Not a big deal really in the big scheme of things :)

Come on, we ALL Know why some one deletes a thread, they are fooling anyone with their "high and mighty superiour" BS.

The things that the WC forum are famous for : lineage wars, personal insults, "my shifu is better than your shifu" and we have the "real WC".

Read that and see how incredibly silly it all seems to outsiders and why most thing the WC forum is full or wackos.

[JPinAZ]

Come on, we ALL Know why some one deletes a thread, they are fooling anyone with their "high and mighty superiour" BS.

The things that the WC forum are famous for : lineage wars, personal insults, "my shifu is better than your shifu" and we have the "real WC".

Read that and see how incredibly silly it all seems to outsiders and why most thing the WC forum is full or wackos.

haha, agreed all around.

[Grumblegeezer]

I've modded on a few forums, when we couldn't ban people due to forum rules we went with an infraction system.

1. Trolling in an obvious way to get insulting replies or just repeating the same annoying thing over and over again to rile people up gives an infraction
2. Personal attacks and name calling gives an infraction
3. 3 infractions means loss of posting privileges for 1 month, 4 infractions for 3 months, 5 infractions 6 months

Actually, I kinda like the idea of an "infraction" or demerit system ...possibly linked to titles, granted according to the type of infraction. Rather than a rigid point system though, the criteria could be comfortably vague so that Gene and the mods could bestow titles capriciously and with absolute authority like monarchs. Titles could be awarded in three levels or grades, with level 3 resulting in a ban. How about these titles for starters:

For rude, "fraud-busting" and "lineage-bashing" (as in "you're stupid and your sifu is a total tool") = Level 1, 2 and 3 JACKA$$

For rude, raunchy and sexually explicit references (no example necessary) = Level 1, 2, and 3 Bawanger ...or Ba-wanker?

For hounding posters across threads and de-railing the threads by hectoring their target over unrelated topics= Level 1, 2, and 3 STFU Already!

For people who get stuck in an endless and unresolvable back and forth argument, re-stating the same dang things over and over for page after page= Level 1, 2, and 3 If you kids don't stop it right now, I'm pulling the car over!!! ...this could also lead to locking a thread, Que no?

For endless whining (whinging) and complaining about anything = Level 1,2, and 3 HTFU you Crybaby!...


Anyway, you get the idea...

[GeneChing]

We don't need no stinkin' infraction rules. We can pull the car over whenever we like. :p

Seriously, it's not like this is a sporting event where maintaining fairness keeps spectators happy. This is a privately-owned web forum. Membership is free, pending approval, and banning is always an option.

[KPM]

Dunno, reading through this it seems like everyone needs to spend a week to create their "fursonas" and then this forum will transcend into the bliss of everyone making purring noises and petting each other. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furry_fandom



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b6/GR_MFF2006_Fursuiters_BJ_Buttons_and_Cobalt_balloo ns.jpg/220px-GR_MFF2006_Fursuiters_BJ_Buttons_and_Cobalt_balloo ns.jpg

This is a perfect example of a post that was meant as a taunt or a bait and that contributed nothing to the topic of the thread. It is a perfect example of a post meant only to "be cute" or tick someone off and should be deleted from a thread. Just sayin........

[KPM]

Let me be clear that hurting another's feelings and being an ass does NOT get you banned.
.

We are using "ban" in the wrong context. It is clear that Gene and Sanjuro are seeing this as a last resort and a permanent thing. What most of us have been talking about is a temporary bar from posting...not a complete ban. If someone can't play nice with others, make them stand in the corner for awhile! ;) This is what I was saying in my initial post and what Miguel was talking about.

[Wayfaring]

This is a perfect example of a post that was meant as a taunt or a bait and that contributed nothing to the topic of the thread. It is a perfect example of a post meant only to "be cute" or tick someone off and should be deleted from a thread. Just sayin........

My post was a perfect example of what I see reading the whining on this thread. What it contributes is an opinion different than yours. Which is plenty enough to give it value. What it shows though is that posters like you DO have an underlying agenda. You want to be "fake nice" and enact bans for people who aren't "fake nice" like you. So in other words to put this in MMA terms you want this forum to have a makeup of 100% Meisha Tate, and 0% Ronda Rousey.

[KPM]

My post was a perfect example of what I see reading the whining on this thread. What it contributes is an opinion different than yours. Which is plenty enough to give it value. What it shows though is that posters like you DO have an underlying agenda. You want to be "fake nice" and enact bans for people who aren't "fake nice" like you. So in other words to put this in MMA terms you want this forum to have a makeup of 100% Meisha Tate, and 0% Ronda Rousey.

Gene, Sanjuro.....please tell me that I'm not the only one that sees the attitude displayed above as part of the problem. Because if you can go along with both of Wayfaring's posts in this thread and see nothing wrong with either one, then I'm out of here and never coming back.

[Wayfaring]

So, we all agree that this forum needs to change and that we have far too many issues and dramas here, correct?

I am asking for suggestion, your top 3.

Remember this is a thread started by a moderator and a sure fire way to get your ass banned will be to start drama and try to highjack THIS thread, understood?

Now, the EASY way would be to lay down the moderator hammer on this forum and apply zero tolerance to every and any thread based on the sole discretion of the moderating staff BUT I think that all here will agree that is not the best way and deep down I know you guys want this forum to be a great one so I am giving you guys the benefit of the doubt and allowing you to tell US what you think needs to be done.

Fair enough?

So my top 3:

1. Sub forum for TCMA research. It's kind of specific and those threads are problematic here. Nothing unique to wing chun that research wouldn't be helped by combining with research from other TCMAs.
2 and 3. Who cares. This is an antiquated bulletin board technology that is rapidly becoming obsolete anyway for more modern forms of social interaction. If I'm interested I'll post here, but really, who cares.

I post here and have for years simply because it's about the only place on the internet I've found people from different lineages of wing chun and continents will actually talk to each other. The fact that they are arguing reflects their views of each others' lineages in real life mostly. What I see is right now there are a handful of posters that don't want anyone disagreeing with them, and want to ban everyone else who does. I mean this whole topic of bans, putting people on ignore, putting rules around people's interactions, complaining about posts. To me this is childish behavior. If you don't like someone's tone ignore their post, like I did on KPM's last retort on the sparring thread. Don't whine on and on and on about it. Geez. Am I back in grade school? Teacher, Jimmy threw an apple at me.

[Wayfaring]

Gene, Sanjuro.....please tell me that I'm not the only one that sees the attitude displayed above as part of the problem. Because if you can go along with both of Wayfaring's posts in this thread and see nothing wrong with either one, then I'm out of here and never coming back.

And I view behavior of threatening to leave a message board as part of the problem. It is an age-old trick of emotional bribery to get authorities to take action against someone who has a different opinion from you.

[GlennR]

So, we all agree that this forum needs to change and that we have far too many issues and dramas here, correct?

I am asking for suggestion, your top 3.

Remember this is a thread started by a moderator and a sure fire way to get your ass banned will be to start drama and try to highjack THIS thread, understood?

Now, the EASY way would be to lay down the moderator hammer on this forum and apply zero tolerance to every and any thread based on the sole discretion of the moderating staff BUT I think that all here will agree that is not the best way and deep down I know you guys want this forum to be a great one so I am giving you guys the benefit of the doubt and allowing you to tell US what you think needs to be done.

Fair enough?

I think everything is ok as it is.

Take away Hendriks spamming of the forum, and the playful banter, and there would be 2 posts a week

So my question would be.......... change to what?

[GlennR]

Gene, Sanjuro.....please tell me that I'm not the only one that sees the attitude displayed above as part of the problem. Because if you can go along with both of Wayfaring's posts in this thread and see nothing wrong with either one, then I'm out of here and never coming back.

THATS whats wrong with the forum, stop moaning!

[KPM]

THATS whats wrong with the forum, stop moaning!

Again, perfect example.....those that behave badly and don't want anyone to call them on it...... accuse people of "whining", "carrying on" and "moaning" when they do. Again Gene....Sanjuro....if you don't agree with what I have been saying just tell me. Because I don't want to continue to be part of a forum where rude and disrespectful behavior is acceptable. Because I have been to forums where it is NOT. We don't have to put up with it here. Not unless the moderators allow it.

[Paddington]

First, I think the 'rules' should be posted in a sticky on this sub forum as it is here where most of the issues are. Second, I agree that posts that just bash a particular sifu or lineage should be deleted and the poster warned. If said poster does not self moderate and continues to have their posts deleted, then why not just issue a temporary ban rather than go with a permanent ban? The danger here is that legitimate constructive criticism is stifled and I don't think anyone wants to see that.

Consequently, perhaps you should add to your rules or provide a guide for contributions as found on the many other discussion board communities online. The most productive discussion board communities do have a wider code of conduct that is enforced and the quality of the debate and participation levels is often far higher. I think as soon as one cries, 'but that is censorship' one occupies the other extreme pole and there is always a happy medium that can be reached. An infraction system is a good idea.

I also agree that direct attacks and name calling is just not needed. Whilst some don't mind the banter others do so it makes sense to allow it amongst those that want to banter but if someone requests that they are not addressed that way, that should be respected and enforced otherwise it becomes bullying. Again, an infraction system would work here as it incorporates the idea of a warning and allowing people to self moderate. It is less draconian and if you, the leadership, are going to use this 'freedom of speech' or 'we don't want to censor' then you are going to have to reconcile that with statements such as 'we reserve the right to ban anyone at anytime for any reason'.

Again, an infraction system and stating the rules or a code of conduct in a sticky which should, technically, be collectively agreed, would go someway to resolving this contradiction and increase both the number of contributing members and the quality of the contributions.

In summary;

1) Collectively agree a code of conduct or rules and post them as a sticky.
2) Implement an infraction system, inasmuch as warnings, so that there is transparency in mod decisions when temporary bans, permanent bans and deletions are issued.
3) Take a harsher line with those who are just derailing threads through insults and baiting others to argue and bicker.

[Paddington]

So my top 3:
[...]
2 and 3. Who cares. This is an antiquated bulletin board technology that is rapidly becoming obsolete anyway for more modern forms of social interaction. If I'm interested I'll post here, but really, who cares.
[...]

Yeah, as antiquated as the written word itself. BB and forum tech and the way people communicate online has not changed much. All that changes is who gets the majority of the audience and 'sells their digital space the best', rather than proper technological change or advancement. Even the most up-to-date plug and play forums are not that much more advanced than what we have here.

[Grumblegeezer]

Yeah, as antiquated as the written word itself. BB and forum tech and the way people communicate online has not changed much. All that changes is who gets the majority of the audience and 'sells their digital space the best', rather than proper technological change or advancement. Even the most up-to-date plug and play forums are not that much more advanced than what we have here.

I think he was getting at the fact that for a number of years now these kinds of bulletin boards in general are attracting less and less traffic as compared to Facebook and other forms of social media. Seems true in my limited experience.

Now back to the OP: Honestly, I think the atmosphere here really depends on the participants. Practically speaking, we have to moderate each other. It's like any other social group. When someone gets out of line, the rest, including the guys own buddies, will tell him to chill. So for example, when two people get caught up in a lengthy personal quarrel that hijacks a thread, the rest of us should tell them to "drop it". Other than that, I'm totally cool with strong opinions, including those that I disagree with. I may not waste my time responding, but I don't mind those kinds of posts.

So one thing that would really help in accomplishing this kind of group self-moderation is a "like", "agree", or "thanks" feature. That way if someone gets out of line and one of us calls them to task, the rest of us can agree ...or not. One thing that would really shut me up would be to have someone post back telling me that I'm out of line, and then to see that a dozen or so other forum members agree with him and have their names appear in the "thanks/agree" feature at the bottom of his post.

Gene, is there any way something like that could be added? If not, couldn't we do the same thing by adding a simple one word post saying "agree" of disagree" when necessary. Perhaps we could we put in a sticky recommending that everyone make this a "custom" here on the WC forum?

[Grumblegeezer]

THATS whats wrong with the forum, stop moaning! Agreed --Grumblegeezer

*Included as an example. KPM means well, God bless him, but sometimes he is asking for a "Level 1 HTFU" title -- to use the criteria from my earlier post :D

[Faux Newbie]

Now back to the OP: Honestly, I think the atmosphere here really depends on the participants. Practically speaking, we have to moderate each other. It's like any other social group. When someone gets out of line, the rest, including the guys own buddies, will tell him to chill.

Except this is not going to happen, realistically speaking. And the fact is, there is a distinct difference between having a strong opinion and being simply rude in lieu of a strong argument, there is a difference between razzing banter with friends and outright and consistent insults to people who have a right to assume that such will not be the dominant theme of a forum where every member joins under the premise of respectful discourse.

There are people on here who are itching for a fight, and whiny when they called on it. One can look at the complaints about them as whiny, but the fact is, they are whiners about it, and say they are being bullied. They insult people every day that the mods aren't on the warpath, only behave when bans are looming, and then say they are being bullied. How much more whiny can you get?

What a lot are endorsing is "no change", except banning Hendrick. Considering that Hendrick has not been involved in any of the flame wars the last few weeks, I'm thinking CYA is involved in some members' responses.

Fourteen out of fifteen forums on here have ended up banning flamers and then instituting an approach that doesn't support this kind of flame war. This last one is a holdout, nothing more. Anyone thinking this is not the case is living an illusion. Nobody in the real world behaves this way around people they know, and even on facebook, they only do it on groups and comment sections that do not show up, unless they come from a whole family of idiots. It's not about stifling argument, it's about some people not being able to argue without insults.

[YouKnowWho]

There are people on here who are itching for a fight, ...

Most problems happened when no matter what you may train, someone will always say that a boxer, MT guy can beat the **** out of you. This is more than just to insult you in person but also to insult the system that you train.

If you

- lose a fight, someone will say that you are no good.
- win a fight, someone will say that your opponent is too weak.

That person just wants to make you look bad no matter what you are trying to say. The more that you post, the deeper that you will get into argument with that person. One day you suddenly realize that you have spent so much time to argue against someone that you don't even know who that person is. When that happen, you will understand how stupid that you were and how much valuable life time that you have wasted.

You should never respond to someone's post if that person is not friendly to you. Ignore that person's posts ASAP.

[GeneChing]

then I'm out of here and never coming back. Well,that would solve one problem. :rolleyes: Participation in this forum is voluntary. You leave me no choice but to post a pop song video.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoJ8s90NLc4

Ok, that's not directed at you in particular, KPM. It's more of a comment to everyone here. You like it. You all like it. Or you'd just leave. You wouldn't post about leaving. Been there, done that, so many times here. You'd just leave. The real problem is you like it. We're all allegedly martial artists here, and that means we all like to fight. It's just the battleground that is the forum here is unique, still unregulated for the most part. Despite being an "antiquated bulletin board technology" we actually do quite well here still. We still get plenty of views. The advantage forums have over social networks is that they are searchable databases, which means we come up on web searches for all sorts of odd martial topics here and that keeps our audience.

Clearly, our little WC forum has escalated a lot lately. Is it ban time now? Do I need to draw a line in the sand for future-banned to cross? Or are some of you taking the 'noble' path and just walking away? It won't be a complicated line in the sand - no accruing infractions, nothing like that. It'll be plain and simple, just like in draconian nursery schools. Any sass and your ass is grass...or banned at least.

[Faux Newbie]

Most problems happened when no matter what you may train, someone will always say that a boxer, MT guy can beat the **** out of you. This is more than just to insult you in person but also to insult the system that you train.

If you

- lose a fight, someone will say that you are no good.
- win a fight, someone will say that your opponent is too weak.

That person just wants to make you look bad no matter what you are trying to say. The more that you post, the deeper that you will get into argument with that person. One day you suddenly realize that you have spent so much time to argue against someone that you don't even know who that person is. When that happen, you will understand how stupid that you were and how much valuable life time that you have wasted.

You should never respond to someone's post if that person is not friendly to you. Ignore that person's posts ASAP.

The thing is, what is said has no bearing on my kung fu. People who talk tough online generally lose fights in real life.

But, it can reduce the amount that we can talk about technique. Since there is no 太虚拳 forum or 摔跤 forum, what we do borders some of the discussion going on on many of the forums. If I think I can push the issue to help put such discussion at the forefront, sometimes it is worth it.

If someone insults everyone, and are on to do that, usually along with two or three others, I'll call them on it, and they will whine. It's not being thin skinned, it's simply stating fact and not putting up with grown men acting like twelve year olds.

That said, I respect your patience.

[Jimbo]

Those who have been on these forums from way back might remember the Southern Mantis Forum. Things got so bad on that, that the entire SPM sub-forum was eliminated. And it was probably the worst I've seen in a MA forum in terms of insults, etc.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Faux Newbie;1273249]

If someone insults everyone, and are on to do that, usually along with two or three others, I'll call them on it, and they will whine. It's not being thin skinned, it's simply stating fact and not putting up with grown men acting like twelve year olds.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

???????

[Vajramusti]

Those who have been on these forums from way back might remember the Southern Mantis Forum. Things got so bad on that, that the entire SPM sub-forum was eliminated. And it was probably the worst I've seen in a MA forum in terms of insults, etc.
--------------------------------------------------


Dem were lulus

[Faux Newbie]

[QUOTE=Faux Newbie;1273249]

If someone insults everyone, and are on to do that, usually along with two or three others, I'll call them on it, and they will whine. It's not being thin skinned, it's simply stating fact and not putting up with grown men acting like twelve year olds.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

???????

I misworded that. It is my view that we can come on here and have some reasonable debate, and that just because a handful want to insult people all day, they don't have that privilege while agreeing with the forum rules on respectful discussion. No one is under any responsibility to avoid calling middle aged men acting like twelve year olds on their behavior just because those people might think it is thin skinned to call them out.

This is not aimed at everyone who ever flames or has a disagreement, it is specifically aimed at the handful that snipe every post right up until the mods are looking, and even then sometimes. I think even the people who don't want to hear the complaints know exactly what I'm talking about.

[YouKnowWho]

When someone puts up a post to respond to your post, you should have pretty good idea about what may happen when you respond to that person's post.

Does he

1. want you to provide more information?
2. disagree with you 100% already?

In the

- 1st case, the continue discussion will be worthwhile. This is a true "information sharing".
- 2nd case, you may be better not to continue that discussion.

When someone said,

- WC is bad boxing, or
- SC is bad Judo, or
- long fist is bad MT, or
- ...

I just don't see any good reason to continue discussion with that person.

If you already know that no matter what information that you may present, that person will never agree with you, why do you want that discussion to be continued? Why do you even care if someone agrees with you or not?

[Faux Newbie]

When someone puts up a post to respond to your post, you should have pretty good idea about what may happen when you respond to that person's post.

Does he

1. want you to provide more information?
2. disagree with you 100% already?

In the

- 1st case, the continue discussion will be worthwhile. This is a true "information sharing".
- 2nd case, you may be better not to continue that discussion.

When someone said,

- WC is bad boxing, or
- SC is bad Judo, or
- long fist is bad MT, or
- ...

I just don't see any good reason to continue discussion with that person.

If you already know that no matter what information that you may present, that person will never agree with you, why do you want that discussion to be continued? Why do you even care if someone agrees with you or not?

I agree in individual communication. In forums, the solution tends to be more tied to changing the group dynamic than individual expectation. It usually works like one poster earlier said, moderation changes, a few people usually get banned, the dynamic changes in their absence, and then tends to remain that way after their return.

I've yet to see it change a different way.

[Wayfaring]

Yeah, as antiquated as the written word itself. BB and forum tech and the way people communicate online has not changed much. All that changes is who gets the majority of the audience and 'sells their digital space the best', rather than proper technological change or advancement. Even the most up-to-date plug and play forums are not that much more advanced than what we have here.

To be fair I've seen plenty of b1tchfests on FaceTweet. Even 140 characters doesn't seem to limit human drama. There seems to be this unending pull with people being wrong on the internet.

One interesting thing to look at is over the years the people have changed but many of the arguments have not. Proponents of both sides of maybe a few arguments around here have been going back and forth for quite a while. Topics like:

chi sau
sparring
history
mo duk

Well, 3 topics and the last one is a phenomenon that goes along with technology. The phenomenon is that no matter who is posting on an internet forum, they are the only one on that forum with this - everyone else does not.

[YouKnowWho]

The funniest thing is in the past, we TCMA guys had to argue with MMA guys. Today, those arguments are pretty much gone, but we TCMA guys start to argue among ourselves.

Most of the argument between the TCMA and the MMA is "If any TCMA technique that has not been seen in UFC, it must be low successful rate technique". That kind of argument will go nowhere.

[anerlich]

The things that the WC forum are famous for : lineage wars, personal insults, "my shifu is better than your shifu" and we have the "real WC".


So why not take action to stop or discourage those, assuming that there will be anything left?

Personally, I feel lineage wars are an anachronistic joke in the age of the UFC.

Personal insults? IMO those who whine about this the most are among the principal offenders when it suits them. And that includes all you passive-aggressive, moral-high-ground-claiming, higher-level-of-civil-discourse-demanding a**holes :p

"My shifu is better than your shifu". At what? Keyboard warriorship? Kev and Graham were among the worst at this of recent times but they also posted some good clips and good posts.

I don't care if my WC is real or fake, as long as it's effective.

If someone posts absolute balderdash, I'm going to have a go at them. If they insult me, I'll insult them back, or maybe get in first. Do with my forum membership what you will. In some ways and in some circles, getting banned from this forum might not be seen as a bad thing.

This really only came up because of the recent Emei/Snake/Crane spamming of the forum by Hendrik, Minghequan (sp?) the snake/crane dude whose name I have intentionally forgotten, and those in their thrall who traded enormous long lists of each other's moral failings and various types of feet of clay in the resulting spam apocalypse.

IMO things aren't that bad. To paraphrase somebody, "if you don't like it, F*** OFF".

[Graham H]

I think everything is ok as it is.

Take away Hendriks spamming of the forum, and the playful banter, and there would be 2 posts a week

So my question would be.......... change to what?

I agree with Glenda!

This forum would be pretty quiet without the banter. Some people take it too far and make things personal which could change, some people talk a load of old nonsense (no names) and some people like to moan and whine (no names) at everything which could also change.

I think the forum is fine the way it is. It's no different to any other forum. Take a look at the main German forums. The WT guys fight with everybody. That's just the way it is in the world of internet forums. Wing Chun is not the only culprit.

I also find it funny that some of you think that others act like children. I think you are just as bad. You know who you are..................................... :p

[Graham H]

<<<<<insert post by KPM>>>>>>> "see the above is exactly what I'm talking about blah blah"............. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Really it's not that bad is it?

I think it was LFJ that said "I read what people write, I add my own view and then I move on" (or something like that)

I think some people must wake up in the night worrying about it all :D

[anerlich]

I also find it funny that some of you think that others act like children. I think you are just as bad. You know who you are..................................... :p

True. And I know who I am :D

[Graham H]

True. And I know who I am :D

Lolage....................:D:D:D:D:D

[Wayfaring]

True. And I know who I am :D

Yes. And we all :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: know who you are. :D:D:D

[Graham H]

Yes. And we all :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: know who you are. :D:D:D

Yep, just the way I like it!

[LFJ]

<<<<<insert post by KPM>>>>>>> "see the above is exactly what I'm talking about blah blah"............. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Really it's not that bad is it?

I think it was LFJ that said "I read what people write, I add my own view and then I move on" (or something like that)

I think some people must wake up in the night worrying about it all :D

Yup, exactly. He didn't like your tone several pages back, and then several pages forward we're all discussing a topic and he has to keep bringing it back up and whine about it for several posts/pages. That's just as distracting as spamming and makes a mountain out of a molehill.

If people could just look past tone and see what someone's saying and either choose to respond to the message and not the tone or just move on, then there really wouldn't be a problem here. There's nothing wrong with a little teasing during a discussion and it can be ignored. If someone really can't handle it, they aren't mentally tough enough to post here, much less be a supposed fighter.

Seriously, this place is not that bad, apart from the character assassinations/suicides that were going on between Hendrik and all those other guys with broken English in obnoxiously bold red lettering.

[Graham H]

....if you don't agree with what I have been saying just tell me. Because I don't want to continue to be part of a forum where rude and disrespectful behavior is acceptable.

You mean like this? :D:D:D:D:D:D

[anerlich]

Collectively agree a code of conduct or rules and post them as a sticky.

I guess I'll exclude myself from the collective. I'm happy with the way I'm behaving and have no interest in setting rules for others. If someone starts acting like a d*ck, I'll treat them like one. I know I'd be getting it back and deserve it if/when I acted that way.


Seriously, this place is not that bad, apart from the character assassinations/suicides that were going on between Hendrik and all those other guys with broken English in obnoxiously bold red lettering.

I agree, though the main problem with all that was that it got repetitive and boring real quick and the main players were claiming to be pillars of virtue while acting like the exact opposite. There have been far more interesting flame wars in the past.

[anerlich]

The funniest thing is in the past, we TCMA guys had to argue with MMA guys. Today, those arguments are pretty much gone, but we TCMA guys start to argue among ourselves.


Internecine b!tching in TCMA was going on way before MMA got invented and will continue well into the future.

[KPM]

Agreed --Grumblegeezer

*Included as an example. KPM means well, God bless him, but sometimes he is asking for a "Level 1 HTFU" title -- to use the criteria from my earlier post :D

You may think so. But it seems we have FINALLY gotten a moderator's attention to take some kind of action. We'll see what comes of it. The option would have been to continue to just tolerate bad behavior and nothing would ever change. I'm tired of being told to HTFU by people who just want to continue to act like a55holes and not be held responsible. So again, call it anything you want....whining, moaning, carrying on.....but if the volume of a55hole isn't matched by the volume of "whining" then nothing is going to change.

[Graham H]

You may think so. But it seems we have FINALLY gotten a moderator's attention to take some kind of action. We'll see what comes of it. The option would have been to continue to just tolerate bad behavior and nothing would ever change. I'm tired of being told to HTFU by people who just want to continue to act like a55holes and not be held responsible. So again, call it anything you want....whining, moaning, carrying on.....but if the volume of a55hole isn't matched by the volume of "whining" then nothing is going to change.

You need to lighten up!

Have a Coke, a smile and STFU! :D:D:D:D:D

[Faux Newbie]

Anyone who thinks this forum is the norm for social media is hanging out on yahoo news comments way too much.

It's a crapstorm and everyone knows it. And Hendrick hasn't even been here to take the blame for a couple weeks.

[KPM]

Ok, that's not directed at you in particular, KPM. It's more of a comment to everyone here. You like it. You all like it. Or you'd just leave. You wouldn't post about leaving. Been there, done that, so many times here. You'd just leave.

.

Ah! I guess I have my answer! You DO go along with the behavior I have noted and evidently see nothing wrong with it. Fine. But you are wrong. I don't like it. It isn't acceptable in other social situations. Why is it acceptable here? And I will leave, just as many others have in the past. Pretty soon all that will be left is the a55hole club to argue amongst themselves. The quality people with good things to say left long ago, or post very very seldom. There is a reason for that. Too bad you can't see that Gene. So. Let it be known that if this particular subforum either tanks or continues to be a cr@pfest it is because the moderators refused to take action and let good people be chased away.

[Paddington]

To be fair I've seen plenty of b1tchfests on FaceTweet. Even 140 characters doesn't seem to limit human drama. There seems to be this unending pull with people being wrong on the internet.

One interesting thing to look at is over the years the people have changed but many of the arguments have not. Proponents of both sides of maybe a few arguments around here have been going back and forth for quite a while. Topics like:

chi sau
sparring
history
mo duk

Well, 3 topics and the last one is a phenomenon that goes along with technology. The phenomenon is that no matter who is posting on an internet forum, they are the only one on that forum with this - everyone else does not.

I agree with most of what you say here. Unfortunately there is always going to be some repetition in debate as and when new members come along. One way to get around this is to have stickies on certain themes that have been well debated before. Such stickies would operate as an index of sorts and would contain links to previous threads on said topics. If I get some time later this week I will collate one such index like thread and post it as an example.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Thanks Guys, this has given us things to ponder on.
Fact is that without the drama, we really wouldn't have much in terms of discussion in the WC forum, what does that tell you?
We don't want to eliminate discussions and debates, far from that.
What must be done is discussion and debates with some sort of civility.
I think that Gene has made it clear that if YOU want the forum to be better, it falls on YOU more than on Us.
That said, we will be moderating the threads far more than we have in the past and personal attacks and such will not be tolerated.
I don't think it is too much to ask to be civil and respectful to each other even if you don't agree.
Now, that said we have no problem in BS being called BS BUT realize that there is a difference in saying a persons view is full of it and stating why compared to saying the PERSON is full of it.
That difference is pretty obvious to all and those that refuse to "see it" will be dealt accordingly.

[BPWT..]

There's nothing wrong with having a good discussion and that then turning into a bit of an argument :) But the name-calling is something else. Not because its hurtful (sticks and stones, and all that...) but because it's off topic and takes away from the talking/arguing about something that is WCK related.

Often people ask good questions, or make good points, and it gets lost in the name-calling and then completely sunk by those who add to it by jumping on the band wagon. Some people here use this as a tactic to avoid answering further questions (it's the best way to derail a thread).

On this forum (http://rumsoakedfist.org) for internal martial arts discussion, there's been some cracking arguments :D but by and large it is full of people who share and have fun. It helps that they have sub-forums where people can rant if they want, and post jokes if they want, etc. The "Test-No-Topic" thread is a thing of wonder. ;)

So thinking about it this morning, and having read here the moderators comments about what will still be allowed in the future, I think I'll bow out. Have fun, guys. :)

[sanjuro_ronin]

There's nothing wrong with having a good discussion and that then turning into a bit of an argument :) But the name-calling is something else. Not because its hurtful (sticks and stones, and all that...) but because it's off topic and takes away from the talking/arguing about something that is WCK related.

Often people ask good questions, or make good points, and it gets lost in the name-calling and then completely sunk by those who add to it by jumping on the band wagon. Some people here use this as a tactic to avoid answering further questions (it's the best way to derail a thread).

On this forum (http://rumsoakedfist.org) for internal martial arts discussion, there's been some cracking arguments :D but by and large it is full of people who share and have fun. It helps that they have sub-forums where people can rant if they want, and post jokes if they want, etc. The "Test-No-Topic" thread is a thing of wonder. ;)

So thinking about it this morning, and having read here the moderators comments about what will still be allowed in the future, I think I'll bow out. Have fun, guys. :)

Of course and that is the point, there is NO NEED for name calling and insults simple because it is, well, unbecoming, uncivilized and quite simply unacceptable.
So it must stop.

[Faux Newbie]

Hard hitting news that relates closely:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/local-idiot-to-post-comment-on-internet,2500/

An article about a study regarding language in online discussion:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/opinion/sunday/this-story-stinks.html?_r=1&

And last, an article about ways website owners can deal with issues that come up:

http://dashes.com/anil/2011/07/if-your-websites-full-of-*******s-its-your-fault.html

I think the most applicable thing in the last one is giving mods the power to delete AND ban, and having more than one mod for problem forums/comment sections.

And, for those who think that this is about martial artists liking to fight, the logical extension of this idea is that you are all total pussies compared to reddit users and the members of any cat forum.

[Graham H]

And I will leave, just as many others have in the past. Pretty soon all that will be left is the a55hole club to argue amongst themselves.


So thinking about it this morning, and having read here the moderators comments about what will still be allowed in the future, I think I'll bow out. Have fun, guys. :)

Positive results already! :)

[LFJ]

I foresee Spock and Beatrice pulling a Hendrik... "I'm leaving here for good"... A couple days later, makes 3 topics and 20 odd posts.

[Graham H]

I foresee Spock and Beatrice pulling a Hendrik... "I'm leaving here for good"... A couple days later, makes 3 topics and 20 odd posts.

Beatrice is probably writing one now after "bowing" out! :D

[Faux Newbie]

What mods and admins say and what they mean is often necessarily different. I've had this same argument on other forums here with admins, right before they ban problem members anyway.

Calls to self moderate do not generally work, but are still necessary as a preface to further action. Those that are left figure out that it's not 4chan and the dynamic changes.

Members should always keep in mind that Gene is more beholden to more lineages than we will ever be, so all his efforts must seek middle ground. Like I've said before, he has 14 forums on here where he doesn't put up with this. The idea that you are special is an illusion. You are the most common kung fu style in the world. He can repopulate this forum in a day.

[Graham H]

Nobody can deny this forum is not entertaining from time to time. People like Spock don't know how to have harmless banter.

You know that is the problem with those pesky Vulcans. :cool::D:D

[Faux Newbie]

Nobody can deny this forum is not entertaining from time to time. People like Spock don't know how to have harmless banter.

You know that is the problem with those pesky Vulcans. :cool::D:D

Banter is between friends. Are you saying you're his friend?

[Graham H]

He can repopulate this forum in a day.

Anything is possible. Apparently it only took God 7 days to create everything. :D

[Graham H]

Banter is between friends. Are you saying you're his friend?

Well really as we all come to this forum for the same reason and we are all quite familiar with each other then yes in a certain way we are like friends. Wing Chun fwwwwweinds! :D:D:D:D

[Faux Newbie]

Banter=/= insults to people you obviously do not like.

Argument=/= insults to people you obviously do not like.

It's only trolling for the fun of it when you don't just do it to people you don't like. Otherwise, it's just bickering.

[Faux Newbie]

Well really as we all come to this forum for the same reason and we are all quite familiar with each other then yes in a certain way we are like friends. Wing Chun fwwwwweinds! :D:D:D:D

You people are insane.

[Graham H]

Banter=/= insults to people you obviously do not like.

Argument=/= insults to people you obviously do not like.

It's only trolling for the fun of it when you don't just do it to people you don't like. Otherwise, it's just bickering.

Ok bickering it is.

Do you need a little cuddle or something? Bit of a bad day have we? :)

[Graham H]

You people are insane.

Yep.......................;)

[Faux Newbie]

Ok bickering it is.

Do you need a little cuddle or something? Bit of a bad day have we? :)

Actually, very good day. This doesn't mean I can't see the difference between a clever troll and someone who is arguing with people they don't like and pretending it's a clever troll.

It's more fun when you manage to troll your friends, instead of needing them to be on your side to win an argument.

[Graham H]

Actually, very good day. This doesn't mean I can't see the difference between a clever troll and someone who is arguing with people they don't like and pretending it's a clever troll.

It's more fun when you manage to troll your friends, instead of needing them to be on your side to win an argument.

Ok call it what you like.

I'm all for a productive discussions on Wing Chun it just rarely happens here and even if there are glimmers of hope it soon descends back into the normal routine. Its always been that way before me, during me and will be after me. That's just how it is in this world of www.

Productive things in Wing Chun happen when everybody is in the same room face to face NOT on the internet!

[Faux Newbie]

Ok call it what you like.

I'm all for a productive discussions on Wing Chun it just rarely happens here and even if there are glimmers of hope it soon descends back into the normal routine. Its always been that way before me, during me and will be after me. That's just how it is in this world of www.

Productive things in Wing Chun happen when everybody is in the same room face to face NOT on the internet!

Funny, that doesn't describe the other fourteen forums. So, BS. There is some trolling, some discussion, some off topic stuff. Here, it's all flame wars and people pretending they're trolls but really just arguing points they passionately believe.

As I've said, all the forums here used to be the same. They aren't now.

I'm willing to bet that if the members on here talking tough are doing this on facebook, they're doing it on pages that their family and long time friends have no chance of seeing. Because they know they are being ridiculous. Not because they are tough.

The internet history of tough talking martial artists has not exactly been a history of tough guys who win fights.

If none of the places on the internet you are on are more productive than this, perhaps you're choosing to be in such environments. There are plenty that have more content without losing the occasional "www" silliness. That does not describe this one out of fourteen forums. Do the math.

[Faux Newbie]

Additionally, trolling a mod thread is a pretty flagrant way of saying you have no intention of working with the site that gives you space to talk. You really want to do that?

[Grumblegeezer]

Nobody can deny this forum is not entertaining from time to time. People like Spock don't know how to have harmless banter.

You know that is the problem with those pesky Vulcans. :cool::D:D

Agreed - Grumblegeezer.

--being able to participate in a conversation without getting all bent out of shape every time somebody teases you is a more important life skill than anything you learn in WC/VT.






...or maybe it IS the conversational equivalent to what we train physically in WC/VT, i.e. yielding/flexing under direct pressure and borrowing/redirecting the force. To reference another art, you've got to be verbally able to slip the jab instead of having moderators ban all jabs. Sure, ban the low blows, but jabs? HTFU!

[Faux Newbie]

Agreed - Grumblegeezer.

--being able to participate in a conversation without getting all bent out of shape every time somebody teases you is a more important life skill than anything you learn in WC/VT.

I can agree with this. However, in the real world, and in a lot of other forums, this is not the same as simply allowing people who insult all day to have free reign, imo.


...or maybe it IS the conversational equivalent to what we train physically in WC/VT, i.e. yielding/flexing under direct pressure and borrowing/redirecting the force. To reference another art, you've got to be verbally able to slip the jab instead of having moderators ban all jabs. Sure, ban the low blows, but jabs? HTFU!

And as soon as people are willing to define low blows in a rational way, I'd be happy to agree with this. But the fact is, we all agree to respectful discussion in agreeing to membership. Members who take part in none, except with people who help them troll, tend to try to run an endgame around what they agreed to, and it definitely tends to affect the forum.

I'm pretty sure none of us can point to one forum where this sort of call to not moderate has actually worked. Does wing chun advocate responses that don't work?:D

[LFJ]

Agreed - Grumblegeezer.

--being able to participate in a conversation without getting all bent out of shape every time somebody teases you is a more important life skill than anything you learn in WC/VT.

...or maybe it IS the conversational equivalent to what we train physically in WC/VT, i.e. yielding/flexing under direct pressure and borrowing/redirecting the force. To reference another art, you've got to be verbally able to slip the jab instead of having moderators ban all jabs. Sure, ban the low blows, but jabs? HTFU!

Exactly. If you're not mentally tough enough to handle the harmless teasing that goes on here, I can't imagine you'd be a real fighter of any caliber. I just chuckle at it. It's like the good kid that got picked on in grade school for always telling everyone "follow the rules, play nice, or I tell". It was always funny to watch them pout when the cool teacher told them to HTFU and quit being a tattletale. I mean, it's a freaking internet forum. I can't imagine how they get along in life. :eek:

[Faux Newbie]

Again, people agreed to some level of respectful discussion. If they don't want to live up to that, then they shouldn't whine about being called out on it.

If, in real life, you don't call people out sometimes on trying to dominate conversation, you are weak. On the internet, if you do, you are weak.

People here argue like non-fighters on political comments pages. This doesn't make them real fighters.

If you can't handle someone talking about bridging in a way you don't agree with, you really have no leg to stand on in others not agreeing with out of control childish behavior.

It's worth noting that the excuse is never that it's not childish, but that it's "the internet". In the real world, fighters don't exactly let you call them idiots for the fun of it. Please, try it some time. On most useful forums, it's moderated. 14/15 here. If you don't think the times are changing, you aren't paying attention.

[Grumblegeezer]

Ok bickering it is.

Do you need a little cuddle or something? Bit of a bad day have we? :)

Hey Graham, I could use a cuddle. England is a far way from here. Perhaps you could send me your old Teddy Bear?

Seriously though, ...well sort of...

I can take it when you say:

1. My old sifu acts like a clown

2. Makes inflated, outrageous claims

3. Is all about making money

4. Is not a very nice person

5. Teaches some fighting methods that are downright ineffective (especially against good grapplers)

6. Has lousy technique/comprehension of WC

Furthermore, I firmly disagree with you on number 6! What bugs me is when some people say the same thing over and over. Then they get involved in back and forth bickering that never ends and messes up the thread for everyone else. For example, you may think my old sifu is a clown and I'm a chump, fine. Saying it once did the job. I'm not going to argue with you. So that's over, right? Now if you'll please send the teddy, I'll cover shipping. --Steve

[LFJ]

Actually, I'm not sure why the Yip Man thread was closed. We were in the middle of having a discussion about how we understand the wooden dummy differently from one another. Between the teasing there was still good conversation being had and points being made. One could choose to let the teasing wash off and just continue discussing the points being made. Some people want to ignore the good parts and amplify the parts unpleasing to them. I don't get it.

[Faux Newbie]

1) Occasional insulting behavior=something someone should be able to endure

2) Constant insulting behavior= something no one should be expected to put up with

The second is CLEARLY in violation of the agreement everyone made to join the forum, and CLEARLY describes some people on this and only this forum here.

[Faux Newbie]

Actually, I'm not sure why the Yip Man thread was closed. We were in the middle of having a discussion about how we understand the wooden dummy differently from one another. Between the teasing there was still good conversation being had and points being made. One could choose to let the teasing wash off and just continue discussing the points being made. Some people want to ignore the good parts and amplify the parts unpleasing to them. I don't get it.

Is that where someone was arguing that a wooden dummy is not a stand in for a person? Isn't that the definition of a wooden dummy? I was waiting for when it turned into hitting the heavy bag is not about hitting people.

[LFJ]

Is that where someone was arguing that a wooden dummy is not a stand in for a person? Isn't that the definition of a wooden dummy? I was waiting for when it turned into hitting the heavy bag is not about hitting people.

Yeah, wooden men, building bridges... some people take things way too literally! It's hilarious. :p

[sanjuro_ronin]

Anything is possible. Apparently it only took God 7 days to create everything. :D

6 and He rested on the 7th, but who's counting ;)

[Vajramusti]

6 and He rested on the 7th, but who's counting ;)
--------------------------

Is he still resting?

[Graham H]

--------------------------

Is he still resting?


Ooooo controversial but funny :D

I'm an Atheist so I could care less lol

[Graham H]

Hey Graham, I could use a cuddle. England is a far way from here. Perhaps you could send me your old Teddy Bear?

Seriously though, ...well sort of...

I can take it when you say:

1. My old sifu acts like a clown

2. Makes inflated, outrageous claims

3. Is all about making money

4. Is not a very nice person

5. Teaches some fighting methods that are downright ineffective (especially against good grapplers)

6. Has lousy technique/comprehension of WC

Furthermore, I firmly disagree with you on number 6! What bugs me is when some people say the same thing over and over. Then they get involved in back and forth bickering that never ends and messes up the thread for everyone else. For example, you may think my old sifu is a clown and I'm a chump, fine. Saying it once did the job. I'm not going to argue with you. So that's over, right? Now if you'll please send the teddy, I'll cover shipping. --Steve

No! They are my Teddys! :)

I'm done with the LT bashing.

[Graham H]

Actually, I'm not sure why the Yip Man thread was closed. We were in the middle of having a discussion about how we understand the wooden dummy differently from one another. Between the teasing there was still good conversation being had and points being made. One could choose to let the teasing wash off and just continue discussing the points being made. Some people want to ignore the good parts and amplify the parts unpleasing to them. I don't get it.

I agree........

[Graham H]

1) Occasional insulting behavior=something someone should be able to endure

2) Constant insulting behavior= something no one should be expected to put up with

The second is CLEARLY in violation of the agreement everyone made to join the forum, and CLEARLY describes some people on this and only this forum here.

Ok move on already! :rolleyes::eek:

[Faux Newbie]

Ok move on already! :rolleyes::eek:

Quit your whining.

[Grumblegeezer]

Quit your whining.

Ha! that's funny!

[anerlich]

I agree with most of what you say here. Unfortunately there is always going to be some repetition in debate as and when new members come along. One way to get around this is to have stickies on certain themes that have been well debated before. Such stickies would operate as an index of sorts and would contain links to previous threads on said topics. If I get some time later this week I will collate one such index like thread and post it as an example.

That's not a bad idea. Until we start arguing about which threads should or should not be included, at least.

[Graham H]

Quit your whining.

Oh dear! Looks like FN is going to be the new BPWT! :rolleyes:

[Paddington]

--------------------------

Is he still resting?

More comatose than a quick 30 winks it seems.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Actually, I'm not sure why the Yip Man thread was closed. We were in the middle of having a discussion about how we understand the wooden dummy differently from one another. Between the teasing there was still good conversation being had and points being made. One could choose to let the teasing wash off and just continue discussing the points being made. Some people want to ignore the good parts and amplify the parts unpleasing to them. I don't get it.

It was closed because the majority of posts were condescending and childish and had gone away from the original thread.
See, if there is to occasional crappy childish post, that is one thing BUT when the majority stat being that way, it is time to close the thread.

[Graham H]

It was closed because the majority of posts were condescending and childish and had gone away from the original thread.
See, if there is to occasional crappy childish post, that is one thing BUT when the majority stat being that way, it is time to close the thread.

You could have cleaned it but you took the bias route! :rolleyes:

[sanjuro_ronin]

You could have cleaned it but you took the bias route! :rolleyes:

No, the easy way :P

[Graham H]

No, the easy way :P

Can't argue with that. :)

[Wayfaring]

No, the easy way :P

Yep probably better. I wouldn't recommend editing posts on this forum - that will probably just lead to more crybaby faces posted.

[LFJ]

Well, the topic on throws in Wing Chun seems to be going smoothly now that Spock and Beatrice have left the forum. Good results from the creation of this thread already. :)

[Grumblegeezer]

Well, the topic on throws in Wing Chun seems to be going smoothly now that Spock and Beatrice have left the forum. Good results from the creation of this thread already. :)

Well, I disagree with you guys (that means everybody!) most of the time. But I see that as a reason to stay, not to leave! :)

[Vajramusti]

Well, the topic on throws in Wing Chun seems to be going smoothly now that Spock and Beatrice have left the forum. Good results from the creation of this thread already. :)
-----------------------------------------------------------

Pointless sarcasm

[LFJ]

Pointless sarcasm

No thanks to your contribution to the thread either! ;)

[Vajramusti]

No, the easy way :P
-------------------------

any other changes in the forum coming down the pike?

[Tong Chuang]

DELETED THREADS / POSTS
I tried to post a couple of times and the threads were deleted - it would be useful if moderators could say why?

TRUTH WITH REFERENCES
Posters should wherever possible give references to their arguments e.g seminar dates, Sifu, lineage, etc, rather than just vague hearsay.
We all want to establish the truths of our Art.

IMPARTIALITY
We should be allowed to express fair criticism, without being slanderous, even if the recipient is a sponsor of
KungFuMagazine.com and Tiger Claw.

'WARNED'
This label could be added to a poster's id for a certain time, as used on other forums.

[Wayfaring]

Pointless sarcasm

You rang? :D:D:D

Oh, sorry, thought you were sending out a bat signal to call for some pointless sarcasm on this thread.

:cool::cool::cool:

[Vajramusti]

You rang? :D:D:D

Oh, sorry, thought you were sending out a bat signal to call for some pointless sarcasm on this thread.

:cool::cool::cool:
---------------------------------

nope. just wondering why the now pointless thread was not closed

[Phil Redmond]

First and foremost.....require people to post in a respectful manner. No taunting and baiting. No name-calling. No lineage bashing. All of that simply leads to long drawn-out "b!tchfest" threads. We've seen it over and over. When someone is being rude and inappropriate, call them on it and point out that it is NOT acceptable behavior! If they continue to repeat that behavior after several warnings, then ban them for a short period. It doesn't have to be a permanent ban. Just enough to get their attention. People should be expected to interact here just as they would in a face to face encounter in a public place where a certain level of politeness is expected.

Second....delete posts that are off-topic and are simply aimed at taunting or making fun at someone else and contribute nothing to the actual discussion.

Third...and I realize this one is a stretch and not likely to happen....but I would require everyone to use a real name so it is harder to hide behind the anonymity of a keyboard and just say anything you want. I think it seems more like a real conversation when you have a real named person to talk to and not a collection of letters or numbers, etc.
The 3rd one is very important.

[Jimbo]

The 3rd one is very important.

I have to disagree.

Because if people are required to do it in the WC forum, it's for all the forums. A high percentage of people like putting everything about themselves out there. I'm not one of them; I value a certain degree of privacy, and I'm pretty sure there are others who feel the same. And who's to say people won't use false names anyway?

Besides, I don't troll. As it is, if someone even half-cared, they could find out who I am fairly easily. And probably the same with anyone else.

[Grumblegeezer]

The 3rd one is very important.

There are legitimate reasons for not using your name, Phil. Privacy is one. Another might be so that you can post a personal perspective that doesn't represent the "official line" of your sifu, organization or lineage. Some sifus and organizations are not exactly known for promoting diversity of opinion among their members.

I take a middle path. I use a pseudonym, but if anybody cares to know more, they can check my sig or pm me.