Throws you often find useful in your wing chun [Archive]

Paddington

07-10-2014, 04:07 AM

As the title, what throws do you often find to be useful in your wing chun, or in combination if they are not from wing chun?

Hmmmm, I tend to find sweeps and trips are what I find most useful but I am not sure if they are considered throws proper. As some of the sweeps and trips need you to load the opponents weight on a given leg or offset slightly their centre of balance (breaking their body mass' alignment with the jic seen?) and that throws too sometimes require this, perhaps they can be discussed here?

Either way, given my judo background and despite there being sweeps and trips in the wing chun system as I see it, my bias is Japenese;

1) ko-soto-gari 2) ko-uchi gari 3) o-uchi-gari 4) o-soto-gari 5) de-ashi-barai 6) hize-guruma and sometimes if opponent has a very narrow stance 7) sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi 8) okuri-ashi-barai 9) harai-tsuri-komi-ashi

I embed a reference chart below so you can see what I am referring to.

Although with some of the techniques I list some will put their entire body weight in to it and often land on their opponent, I have a preference for trying to stay standing when incorporating it into my wing chun training. Indeed remaining upright and stable (as much as possible) is my rationale for choosing these techniques over others in my wing chun and what I find the most useful.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Gokyo-no-waza.jpg

Graham H

07-10-2014, 04:53 AM

There are throws in the WCK system???????????

Where?? :eek::confused::confused:

Paddington

07-10-2014, 05:37 AM

There are throws in the WCK system???????????

Where?? :eek::confused::confused:

Are directing that question at Faux Newbie or myself?

Graham H

07-10-2014, 05:38 AM

Are directing that question at Faux Newbie or myself?

Nobody in particular!

Paddington

07-10-2014, 05:45 AM

Nobody in particular!

I would reply that there are sweeps and trips in the wing chun system as I know it. I have seen many, including PB, use what I would call sweeps and trips.

Graham H

07-10-2014, 05:47 AM

I would reply that there are sweeps and trips in the wing chun system as I know it. I have seen many, including PB, use what I would call sweeps and trips.

There are no sweeps and trips in my WCK.

Where do you think they are? :confused:

.............or should I say where are they in yours and where do you think you have seen them in PBVT?

Paddington

07-10-2014, 06:07 AM

There are no sweeps and trips in my WCK.

Where do you think they are? :confused:

.............or should I say where are they in yours and where do you think you have seen them in PBVT?

I have seen them in the video clips of PB training. What do you mean by 'where are they in yours'? I can't answer for PB btw, so you will have to take it up with him if you want to direct your question to his WCK.

Graham H

07-10-2014, 06:11 AM

I have seen them in the video clips of PB training. What do you mean by 'where are they in yours'? I can't answer for PB btw, so you will have to take it up with him if you want to direct you question to his WCK.

I don't want to direct my question at him! If you think you have seen him do a trip or foot sweep then show me the link/evidence.

What is the harm in asking where the foot sweeps are in your system? You seen to be going on the defensive rather quickly when you should be open to discussing where there are actions in PB's VT that I don't know about and have never seen him do on video footage!

If you have foot sweeps in your system then great! Do what you want! I don't and that's that. IMO nor should Bayer! If you have seen them I can ask.

Graham H

07-10-2014, 06:13 AM

......................you make me laugh Paddington as you are always saying things about PB without knowing anything about him or his KF. It's bizarre.

Paddington

07-10-2014, 06:25 AM

......................you make me laugh Paddington as you are always saying things about PB without knowing anything about him or his KF. It's bizarre.

I just made a comment based upon the videos I have seen on youtube where he uses, in conjunction with other things, his feet and legs to knock someone down. I can't comment on anything beyond that. If you want to go search for the videos then be my guest.

As for where I practice trips and sweeps in my wing chun during my solo training, well, I use the dummy, the opening of biu jee and circle stepping, three point stepping, and a kicking dummy.

I chose to include the judo references because I have trained in judo and the examples I cite are those most similar to what I train with respects to wing chun and my understanding of sweep and trips therein, particularly when incorporated into a chi sau training format.

Graham H

07-10-2014, 06:34 AM

I just made a comment based upon the videos I have seen on youtube where he uses, in conjunction with other things, his feet and legs to knock someone down. I can't comment on anything beyond that. If you want to go search for the videos then be my guest.

As for where I practice trips and sweeps in my wing chun during my solo training, well, I use the dummy, the opening of biu jee and circle stepping, three point stepping, and a kicking dummy.

I chose to include the judo references because I have trained in judo and the examples I cite are those most similar to what I train with respects to wing chun and my understanding of sweep and trips therein, particularly when incorporated into a chi sau training format.

Ok that's no problem but I never seen him knock anybody down with a foot sweep or trip and I've never seen it on video. I've seen them all so it's puzzling.

The circling of the legs in my BJ is not a foot sweep and kicking the dummy isn't either. There is also a very good reason why we circle step in VT and it's not to do with foot sweeps in my system. If that's how your WCK is then fine.

Putting Judo into Chi Sau or VT in general is a big no no for me. If you can make it work, great but it defeats the whole idea in my opinion.

Wayfaring

07-10-2014, 07:21 AM

Yeah definitely the foot sweep. But it's not wing chun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug9_rymsEic

Seth's pretty good at these. He's got variations of it he's worked on and taught a bunch of people. Variations like the gravitron 3000, the bully, the lone wolf. They work pretty well. He is a bit ****y naming stuff like that as a purple belt, but one of my friends did guillotine choke him in about 20 sec at the last tournament after he was a bit too dedicated to this approach so it's all good. Seth has showed me all of these and they are very legit. That video is Seth basically KO'ing somebody at the Pans this year. The guy hits his head and is dazed. Seth on the ground there tells the guy "I know you're almost out - just tap out" and the guy did. This was a non striking grappling tournament to the uneducated. Just shows the potential.

LFJ

07-10-2014, 07:32 AM

Graham, here are a couple of examples:

@0:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-NjPDwUA18

@1:00
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=km7xuoeF5B0

There's another good one where the guy rolls over backward, but I can't seem to find it.

Paddington

07-10-2014, 07:40 AM

Ok that's no problem but I never seen him knock anybody down with a foot sweep or trip and I've never seen it on video. I've seen them all so it's puzzling.

Well maybe you have not seen them all. For example in the video below at around the minute mark there is what looks like to me a sweep.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcWcy2NA1pk

~EDIT: I find it easier to watch them when the audio is muted.

Paddington

07-10-2014, 07:41 AM

Another example, and one I really like, is the one in this video at around the 40 second+ mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-NjPDwUA18

LFJ

07-10-2014, 07:46 AM

Uh, duh, hello, Paddington... both of those videos have already been posted. :p

Paddington

07-10-2014, 07:59 AM

Yeah definitely the foot sweep. But it's not wing chun [...]

Now this is the thing isn't it? I've not met PB, not heard him make a comment but there is a bit where when asked what he thought about cross training with say BJJ he said;

To attain combat proficiency in Ving Tsun, you have to train very hard, to keep this level even harder... there is no time for implementing other ideas

So, given what I've seen of the videos I have to say yes, perhaps PB does see sweeps and trips in his wing chun.

To move the thread on, I always enjoy watching Wang Zhi Peng using trips, sweeps, throws and takedowns. I particularly enjoy watching his use of the dummy.

Paddington

07-10-2014, 08:01 AM

Uh, duh, hello, Paddington... both of those videos have already been posted. :p

Well, I was writting my post and linking to the videos as you must have been doing yours. At one point my post was directly after Graham's then by the time I posted the second one, becasue I discovered that I don't have permission to post more than one embedded video, it shifted and appeared after yours. Such is the thing with forum boards. No need for the duh IMO.

Plus, they were precisely the videos I had in mind when I commented earlier on in the thread.

Faux Newbie

07-10-2014, 08:04 AM

Thanks for including the chart of the judo throws, made it a bit easier, as some I remember by name, not all.

And yes, any take downs/trips is fair game for the topic.

Some of the throws Paddington mentioned, or at least my style's equivalents, are also one's I have found useful.

Graham H

07-10-2014, 08:06 AM

You see this is the problem. People look at video clips of Bayer and try to second guess what he is doing without actually being there or having him explain things properly.

It's normal these days.

If I was you Paddington I would give up on the whole PB assumption thing.

He's tripped me up many a time and there is a good reason for it and he also explains why this circling foot sweep idea that many people think is in Bil Jee is not a good idea.

Stop trying to draw conclusions from video footage FFS!

Graham H

07-10-2014, 08:09 AM

........................and BTW Bayer is not fighting in those videos. He would tell you (if you were there) that he is just playing. He also pays attention to correcting peoples errors hence the reason why he will kick your leg away if you balance or structure has gone to sh1t!

Faux Newbie

07-10-2014, 08:18 AM

Circling foot sweeps against decent people have less to do with structure problems, and more to do with attacking during a weight transition. There is no way around the fact that weight transitions have to happen, and they create opportunities for throws and sweeps, thus, moving with cover, but which cover you use creates other opportunities against you.

Paddington

07-10-2014, 08:22 AM

Well, Graham, I was not just referring to circle stepping with respects to Bayer or what I do.

I think the only way I would be convinced otherwise, that there are no sweeps or trips in his wing chun, would be if he said so or one of his authorised most senior students said so.

That's not a demand for them to say anything but more pointing out that you are neither of them and that basing my opinion on video footage, is not really to make 'big assumptions'. That's just my opinion.

But anyway, I find little trips and sweeps the most useful. That may change with future training.

LFJ

07-10-2014, 08:27 AM

He also pays attention to correcting peoples errors hence the reason why he will kick your leg away if you balance or structure has gone to sh1t!

And why would that be a bad thing to capitalize on in fighting? It's not the backward, circling foot thing, just a little scoop of their leg in conjunction with the hands. Works well and is uncompromising to oneself.

Grumblegeezer

07-10-2014, 08:28 AM

You see this is the problem. People look at video clips of Bayer and try to second guess what he is doing without actually being there or having him explain things properly. I agree with you. Video clips out of context can be very misleading. Graham, if you can clarify things that would actually be helpful.

...he also explains why this circling foot sweep idea that many people think is in Bil Jee is not a good idea.

Actually, I have had pretty good success (when the situation permits) using the Huen-bo/circle-step to sweep and throw an opponent. I've also had good results counter-throwing some people who attempt that move on me. Maybe that is one reason why it may not be such a great idea? Done improperly or in the wrong situation it can compromise your structure and balance.

Regardless, I would be the first to point out that sweeping is not the main intent of the huen-bo movement as I have been taught it. In fact, I would not seek to define any of the movements in the forms in terms of applications. There is a difference between seeing a movement in a particular application and mistakenly thinking that the application is why we do the movement.

JPinAZ

07-10-2014, 08:28 AM

. He also pays attention to correcting peoples errors hence the reason why he will kick your leg away if you balance or structure has gone to sh1t!

Sounds like a perfect time to trip someone up in a fight as well to me! Maybe if you stopped defending other people's methods, you may see that the foot sweep, even by your own words, isn't such a horrible thing given the correct situation? For me, if I have an efficient tool that takes advantage of someone's unbalanced gravity or poor structure, I'm going to use it.

FWIW, we have foot sweep in the opening of our SNT form. While I personally don't focus my training on them often, I've had several times where they are the best option to take advantage of an opponent's positions and balance in sparring, playing around, etc. I would prefer to use low line kicks to get the job done, but there are times where facing and positions don't allow kicks, but the sweep is right there for the taking!

JPinAZ

07-10-2014, 08:30 AM

Grumblegeezer

07-10-2014, 08:34 AM

Sounds like a perfect time to trip someone up in a fight as well to me! Maybe if you stopped defending other people's methods, you may see that the foot sweep, even by your own words, isn't such a horrible thing given the correct situation? For me, if I have an efficient tool that takes advantage of someone's unbalanced gravity or poor structure, I'm going to use it.

Total agreement.

trubblman

07-10-2014, 10:20 AM

There are throws in the WCK system???????????

Where?? :eek::confused::confused:

And yet if I got the chance to throw someone in a fight, he would get thrown...The real question is are you fighting or doing wing chun?

Sihing73

07-10-2014, 12:51 PM

Hello,

Being that Wing Chun Forms are conceptual in nature, one can argue for there being throws within the system.
The Gum Sau movements in the SNT, where you press downward alongside your body just after the first section.
You could conceivably use the energy there, the press downward to develop into a throw. You have to use a little imagination but it is there, at least to my eyes.

Having said that, I find many of the "throws" I utilize are really more like foot sweeps. I place my leg as an obstruction and try to make my opponent fall over them. I do not, usually, actively try to sweep someone in the conventional sense. I tend to incorporate things from my Silat training. My big thing is to not use power or strength (as I have neither ;) ) but allow my body to be the obstruction which causes my opponent to fall. Then again, in Silat there is a concept we refer to as a table. This is where when you do drop your opponent you try to drop him into a knee or the like so he feels the impact.

Wing Chun is not a "throwing" art. However, I do believe that one can very easily incorporate foot sweeps into the system without violating any of the principles. Now if you start adding in Hip Throws, Shoulder Throws and the like you are, IMHO, doing something other than Wing Chun because you will have stepped outside of the conceptual framework of the system. Mainly because in those types of throws you need to give your opponent your back for them to be applied, if even only for a moment. This would violate the concept of using the centerline. But, having said that, I would also like to point out that Wing Chun is an eclectic system developed from several different arts as as a result we should keep in mind that as our needs grow and change then perhaps our art may as well. If you find that you can utilize and apply a Hip Throw, for example, then do it as long as you can maintain your own structure and not sacrifice something in the doing.

Vajramusti

07-10-2014, 01:15 PM

As the title, what throws do you often find to be useful in your wing chun, or in combination if they are not from wing chun?
-------------------------------------------------------------

When one develops control over one's wing chun motions- your opponent(s) can show you what to do- including throwing
when the opportunity is there.

Grumblegeezer

07-10-2014, 02:02 PM

-------------------------------------------------------------

When one develops control over one's wing chun motions- your opponent(s) can show you what to do- including throwing
when the opportunity is there.

Well put, Joy.

WC/VT/WT is said to be a complete system. According to a traditional TCMA perspective, that would mean thet it addresses Ti, Da, Shuai, Na or kicking, hitting, throwing and locking. Not all equally of course, but nevertheless it does encompass all four combative aspects to some degree.

WC is built from seed techniques such as tan, bong, and fook, from which a nearly infinite number of solutions or applications may emerge as needed. IMO a good understanding of WC demands divergent thinking -- at least at the higher levels. Instead, some sifus and organizations encourage slavish conformity and cult like dogmatism. Or at least that's the impression some of their students give!

Divergent thinking:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divergent_thinking

kung fu fighter

07-10-2014, 02:52 PM

About 20 years ago, a wing chun sifu by the name of Robert Debreen wrote a great article in inside kung fu on the hidden swai jao throws in the wing chun forms. if anyone knows the link pleas post it.

Paddington

07-11-2014, 02:26 AM

[...]
The Gum Sau movements in the SNT, where you press downward alongside your body just after the first section.
You could conceivably use the energy there, the press downward to develop into a throw. You have to use a little imagination but it is there, at least to my eyes.
[...]

A good post, thanks.

On the bit I quote, now I might not be as experienced as some here but I've found other movements beyond gum sau to really help develop a throw or offset a person's balance to the extent that a foot in the way (trip) or a more active movement (sweep), will floor an opponent. For example, the folding movement of jip sau in chum kui or a tok sau with one hand and a jut/jum or small lap with another, particularly when performed on a turn with the hip leading the movement, works wonders. This simultaneous push and pull on an opponent really helps unsettle their balance.

Buddha_Fist

07-11-2014, 09:31 PM

LFJ

07-11-2014, 10:34 PM

I agree, Buddha_Fist. "Hidden" application really means "forcibly contrived".

Those who do this kind of thing either haven't learned the actual function of the actions, or they are just too attached to their Wing Chun and wish it were a "well-rounded" system. I think anyone serious about their fighting skills will do as you suggest and either just keep training Wing Chun alone or go to the experts in other fields rather than pull things out their asses and say it was there, hidden all along.

EternalSpring

07-11-2014, 11:31 PM

I suck at throws, and I still haven't had a good chance to learn them well yet, but I do have a bunch of takedowns that I use. Some of them may be considered Ving Tsun takedowns in their own right, my sisook once showed me how he took down people with his Ving Tsun, but I didn't really understand what he was doing until getting the opportunity of drilling takedowns while cross training in Penjak Silat.

Biset Luar - The person I cross trained with actually learned from the sifu in this video, and I find it to be a trustworthy explanation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PULhW6gbLDY

Biset Dalam - This is basically redirecting a strike and sweeping out the lead foot of the opponent and moving in to attack. It doesn't take em down like biset luar, but it breaks their base and if you can pull it off right it does make the other person fall back just because of how they get uprooted.

Poora - Think about hitting someone with a back fist to the neck/head and using that momentum to somewhat grab the neck and pull the guy's head down while controlling one arm so you kinda twist him upside down. That's the best I can explain it at the moment, but it's a common move in many martial arts.

There were also one other silat takedown that I use sometimes, but not often. I dont know the name for it but it's basically getting wrist control (optimally with both hands) and stepping far past the opponent into a bow stance/gong ji mah. The sudden drop happening behind the opponents body brings him down fast and if you whip the arm up right after it's easy to set up an arm bar silat or bjj style.

There are also some ways I learned to take down in Ving Tsun but I think are common in other arts

One is really similar to aikido (according to my friend) but it's basically a takedown where, lets say, you pak or parry a jab from the outside and just use your body and weight to kinda swing your other arm on the inside (in between his arms) around his shoulder area downwards.

One takedown is one where the set up is having a grab on one arm from the outside while doing a back fist or any move that puts your kiu/bridge across the front of the person's neck. Then you just pull the arm that you're holding while using the other arm to kinda push across the neck while shifting to the side and adding downward pressure with the arm across the neck. Sometimes, especially with people bigger than me, my shift will break their base but not take them down, that's where I follow with my staple takedown...

...where the goal is to do a fast but soft kick to the back of the thigh/hamstrings area using the side of my foot. Then I slide down and my foot rests at the knee cap above the calve, from here I just step down, (not to be confused with kicking the back of the knee). It's the one way of taking someone down that I can demonstrate on anyone (well unless the guy can just kick my ass, i need a fighting chance lol). I've never done this just because it would be to rough for the way I spar, but once the knee of the opponent is brought down, this take down can technically be a throw because you can just slam the body down into the ground by sinking and applying pressure to the shoulders/torso. At the angle you end up in, it's unlikely that the other person can resist any pressure to their broken structure and bent body.

I really want to train some Judo and Shuai Jiao to get familiar with the art of throwing, I think it's so cool but I dont know it at all except when learning a hip throw in a brazilian jiu jitsu class, and that was one day and I still suck at it lol.

Paddington

07-12-2014, 06:03 AM

I read throws being hidden in the forms, that to find them you need to use your imagination, that you could possibly interpret BJ's circling steps as sweeps, etc... Does this really sound like a sophisticated system of throws and/or grappling? :confused: Any practitioner of BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, etc. would just quietly shake his head and walk away...

Ving Tsun is a Chinese Boxing method. Use it as it was intended. If you want to expand your game in the throws & grappling realm, go to the pros in such things (BJJ, Judo, Wrestling, etc.!); don't waste your time with dilettant attempts of imagining such things in Ving Tsun. Perfecting your Ving Tsun boxing is already hard enough...

I agree, Buddha_Fist. "Hidden" application really means "forcibly contrived".

Those who do this kind of thing either haven't learned the actual function of the actions, or they are just too attached to their Wing Chun and wish it were a "well-rounded" system. I think anyone serious about their fighting skills will do as you suggest and either just keep training Wing Chun alone or go to the experts in other fields rather than pull things out their asses and say it was there, hidden all along.

Thanks for these posts, they have indeed given me pause for thought so sorry to Faux Newbie if I necessarily go off topic slightly.

Upon reflection most of what you both say comes from a particular perspective and attitude to wing chun which also, at least in the case of LFJ, cautions against taking movements from forms and mapping them one-to-one onto an application, even when it is stressed that other applications and uses for said movements are available.

First, I don't think it is the case of anything being hidden and I do think wing chun is a complete martial art in the sense of a set of training methods and ideas. Speaking from my own training and view of wing chun, often it is not the case of finding hidden moves but rather performing moves in chi sau, sparring or other scenarios, stuff that comes up in the moment, and asking where in wing chun's training method, which includes form work, can I find movements to refine what just worked in the heat of the moment via partner training.

To give one of my own examples. In one training session I found my self in the position of having a double arm contact on my opponent's right arm on the outside which I quickly took advantage of, by performing a double lap sau to the right side of my body around hip level whilst stepping back with the right leg. I ended up with my opponents arm locked out and lining up with his shoulder and the side of his body and on a tze M seen very much to my advantage, so I thrust his arm very much like in the pole form (biu kwun) and found I could send him a mile. I also found that when we played with the possibilities, I could use a biu kwun with little bit of a dang kwun motion to put his face and body into the ground.

Of course when I did these movements in the heat of the moment I did not have these terms, the Chinese ones, in mind. However I did immediately ask myself, where in the forms and the solo training methods can I practice and refine these movements? For me the double lap I decided to train via one of the knife forms, tor dao, and the latter movements as already disclosed I decided to refine and practice from a pole form. Doing this, IMO, is different from taking the forms and seeing applications or even saying there are hidden techniques. It is, at least for me, more the case of seeing wing chun as a method and a comprehensive method at that.

Yes, I think it does help to cross train and have experience elsewhere but I always find myself coming back to wing chun and firmly remaining rooted here. This is because when I ask myself, where in the wing chun method and solo exercises can I train these moments learnt from other disciplines, I always find good answers that help me to improve. This includes improving both trips and sweeps.

Buddha_Fist

07-12-2014, 08:00 AM

I think you can end up doing many things in sparring that do not exist in Ving Tsun, mostly because they do not fit within the framework of strategies and body mechanics of Ving Tsun. Instead of trying to find them in your Ving Tsun, I think it's a better use of your limited training time if you focus on translating the skill set developed through your Ving Tsun into sparring. That way when you spar it actually looks like Ving Tsun and not a like a bad version of Kickboxing (not that it does in your particular case, but you can see the point). This alone requires a lot of hard work, progressive layering in the development of skills, and both an honest and technical examination of what you do when sparring and how it is supported by the drills (forms, Chi-Sao, heavy bag, focus mitts, etc.). It's a never ending cycle of hard work by evaluating your skills through sparring and going back to the drawing board (drills) to reinvent yourself. You are constantly sharpening your knife..

LFJ

07-12-2014, 08:18 AM

And when things in the forms don't quite resemble certain applications people think or want to be there, then they alter the movements to look more like the techniques they imagine, likely because they didn't have a full understanding of why things were done they way they were in the first place. In doing so they lose the original purpose and value of the system and are left with a collection of applications and perhaps a new branch of Wing Chun, which should actually be considered a different style if the essence is changed such to where very different kinds of fighters are being developed through it, which is the case in a few examples I can think of.

LFJ

07-12-2014, 08:34 AM

By the way, we must also remember an action doesn't have to be found within the forms in order to fit within Wing Chun fighting. So, we don't have foot sweeps in the forms, but they are effective and uncompromising to oneself and one's Wing Chun. If the forms give us the conceptual framework of the system and training tools to develop our individual habits, and we can use a foot sweep within those principles in fighting then it's all good.

Remember how the others blamed WSL for using a non-Wing Chun movement when he kneed someone in the head? He countered saying he used the principle of nearest weapon to the nearest target. So, not doing foot sweeps because they aren't found in the forms I think is expecting there to be applications in the forms, at least in the sense that they contain all attacks we'd use. I think that's looking at it incorrectly.

But also, there's no need to relate something we did in sparring or fighting back to something in the forms in order to work on it. We can simply incorporate foot sweeps into various partner drills and just train it like that.

Buddha_Fist

07-12-2014, 10:41 AM

Agreed. Being there no throws or grappling in Ving Tsun doesn't mean that you cannot train them. Personally, I would love to do so and would go to an expert for it (BJJ, Luta Livre, Judo, etc.).

Now, recognizing that one has only so much time available to train, the dilemma becomes whether you want to invest the time you have to become as good as you can in a single martial art or split the time among several martial arts (achieving inevitably lesser results in them, albeit broadening your horizon). I think that some notion of throws and grappling learned the proper way is a good thing.

Paddington

07-12-2014, 11:20 AM

I am not unique in approaching wing chun like that and whilst you agree amongst yourselves that throws, trips and sweeps are 'not there' or 'worth the time' to train, I have a different opinion.

LFJ

07-12-2014, 11:56 AM

I never said they aren't worth the time, but there are certainly no throws in the forms I do. As far as training time and goals, I think most can get by with something like a basic knowledge of street BJJ then dedicate themselves to WC. After a certain level, BJJ becomes superfluous unless facing skilled practitioners in a sportive environment, which I'm not into. For most self-defense situations, solid standup and some familiarity with ground fighting is enough. Depends on your goals. I think an expert punch is worth a thousand throws.

Grumblegeezer

07-12-2014, 12:09 PM

...others blamed WSL for using a non-Wing Chun movement when he kneed someone in the head? He countered saying he used the principle of nearest weapon to the nearest target. So, not doing foot sweeps because they aren't found in the forms I think is expecting there to be applications in the forms, at least in the sense that they contain all attacks we'd use. I think that's looking at it incorrectly.

But also, there's no need to relate something we did in sparring or fighting back to something in the forms in order to work on it. We can simply incorporate foot sweeps into various partner drills and just train it like that.

LFJ: your story about WSL using a knee to the head when it fit WC principles is a great example of divergent thinking.

Now regarding throws, there are times when the huen bo or circle steps from Biu Tze and the yap ghurk or inserting step from the dummy so displace your opponent's center that he will be literally knocked over as a "by product" of basic stance and steps. In such circumstances a throw is often a natural and efficient follow up. Sort of like that knee to the head. Or, since your opponent's structure and balance is so compromised, you might just prefer to punch the heck out of him. Either way fits my definition of WC.

kung fu fighter

07-12-2014, 12:46 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LSzcRCQZEI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyC5yrJS9iI

YouKnowWho

07-12-2014, 02:34 PM

If "foot sweep" works for you, you should train it. If "foot sweep" is not in your forms, you should just add it into your form. This way, the future WC generation won't have to go through this argument again.

In long fist, I had replaced a

- "360 degree backward foot sweep" with a "TKD spin hook kick".
- "jumping kick" with a "MT flying knee".

This way, the future long fist generation will say that long fist system also have the "spin hook kick" and "flying knee". This is what I'll call, "Whatever that you have, if I like it, it will be mine."

LFJ

07-12-2014, 11:19 PM

LFJ: your story about WSL using a knee to the head when it fit WC principles is a great example of divergent thinking.

Now regarding throws, there are times when the huen bo or circle steps from Biu Tze and the yap ghurk or inserting step from the dummy so displace your opponent's center that he will be literally knocked over as a "by product" of basic stance and steps. In such circumstances a throw is often a natural and efficient follow up. Sort of like that knee to the head. Or, since your opponent's structure and balance is so compromised, you might just prefer to punch the heck out of him. Either way fits my definition of WC.

I agree in some instances stepping can be used to effectively take someone's feet out from under them, along with some good punching or po-paai, but that's quite different from, say, a hip toss.

anerlich

07-12-2014, 11:59 PM

My lineage's dummy forms have a number of throws and sweeps therein. They are not "hidden", by any stretch.

LFJ

07-13-2014, 12:09 AM

My lineage's dummy forms have a number of throws and sweeps therein. They are not "hidden", by any stretch.

When you say "throw" what does that actually mean? I think sweeping or otherwise knocking someone down isn't a "throw". I can't even imagine where a throw would be in any dummy form I've seen.

Vajramusti

07-13-2014, 07:12 AM

When you say "throw" what does that actually mean? I think sweeping or otherwise knocking someone down isn't a "throw". I can't even imagine where a throw would be in any dummy form I've seen.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What you have "seen"- maybe your small world laced with sarcasm in some of your posts.

Forms done well shows mastery of wing chun motions. Good mastery of wing chun

can result in showing the way to the classic TCMA functions- strike, defend, break, throw
and chi-na.

For throws- ome can do them when the opportunity is there-one does not force them

Vajramusti

07-13-2014, 07:29 AM

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1273549]If "foot sweep" works for you, you should train it. If "foot sweep" is not in your forms, you should just add it into your form. This way, the future WC generation won't have to go through this argument again-----------------------------\\-------------------------------------

------------------------------------
Foot sweeps are there in the wing chun that I do. When you maintain balance and proper coordination you(generic you)
can un balance and throw other people if the opportunity is better than for an immediate punch. Strikes van be followups.

LFJ

07-13-2014, 08:00 AM

What you have "seen"- maybe your small world laced with sarcasm in some of your posts.

Don't start. :rolleyes:

I haven't told anyone there are no throws in their dummy forms, only that I can't imagine where. Instead of being condescending you could give an example.

Good mastery of wing chun can result in showing the way to the classic TCMA functions- strike, defend, break, throw and chi-na.

So do you have obvious throwing techniques in your forms? If so, where?

When I say throw, I'm not thinking sweeping, tripping, or otherwise knocking down, but actually throwing the opponent shuaijiao style or so.

Vajramusti

07-13-2014, 09:52 AM

Often times, this forum and its "discussions" degrade due to us having varying definitions of a term or motion...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No problem with differences in definitions. The tyrrany of words.
If one is on the receiving end of some wing chun motions--- one can end up on the floor, against a wall or other possible disconnects.
Ip man in a challege match flung his adversary witha lop sao from a stage.(see Ip Ching's book about his father.
A Chinese girl friend of a student of mine saw Ip man at her father's house where her father used to take
privates from IM. Some tkd guys came and challenged IM. IM threw them all over the place.

Paddington

07-13-2014, 12:11 PM

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[...]

Forms done well shows mastery of wing chun motions. Good mastery of wing chun

can result in showing the way to the classic TCMA functions- strike, defend, break, throw
and chi-na.

For throws- ome can do them when the opportunity is there-one does not force them

I very much agree with this point but think that it can be a two way process; that is having experience elsewhere, whether in classic TCMA functions or otherwise, can sometimes help show the way to mastery of wing chun motions.

Joy, would you care to share your experience and give us an example of both a throw and a chi na movement that you can see in your forms in terms of practicing the motion?

YouKnowWho

07-13-2014, 12:13 PM

Foot sweeps are there in the wing chun that I do.

Which one are you talking about?

The one that you use your "inner foot edge" to sweep in front of your opponent's "instep"? This is a "circular" foot sweep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfA03hv8Rx0&feature=youtu.be

YouKnowWho

07-13-2014, 12:15 PM

or the one that you use your "instep" to sweep at the back of your opponent's "ankle"? This is a "linear" foot sweep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VC6aD8N1-8&feature=youtu.be

trubblman

07-13-2014, 12:46 PM

There are throws in the WCK system???????????

Where?? :eek::confused::confused:

"Wing chun requires that the mental be ahead of the physical. It is a system to develop skill, not a style.
...When wing chun is trained to a high level, there are no techniques." - Hawkins Cheung.

So who can say what is and what is not in VT? If you know throws ( and I dont see why anyone who calls himself a Kung Fu practitioner does not know at least one throw ) then you can use throws.

Vajramusti

07-13-2014, 12:56 PM

Which one are you talking about?

The one that you use your "inner foot edge" to sweep in front of your opponent's "instep"? This is a "circular" foot sweep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6SFSAFgPzY&feature=youtu.be
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's not shuai chao- it's a wing chun foot motion.

Vajramusti

07-13-2014, 01:03 PM

I very much agree with this point but think that it can be a two way process; that is having experience elsewhere, whether in classic TCMA functions or otherwise, can sometimes help show the way to mastery of wing chun motions.

Joy, would you care to share your experience and give us an example of both a throw and a chi na movement that you can see in your forms in terms of practicing the motion?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The forms are for mastering motions. Interaction with the opponent(s) shows you when to throw and when to chinna. Chinna is very very close quarters work.
In leg movements with a jong there is a leg sweep motion for instance. Biu jee form two handed motion witha leg sweep can result in a throw with experience and timing.
Of course there is much more.

YouKnowWho

07-13-2014, 01:07 PM

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's not shuai chao- it's a wing chun foot motion.

But "foot sweep" is "foot sweep". There is no WC "foot sweep", long fist "foot sweep", Taiji "foot sweep", Baji "foot sweep", ... The "foot sweep" has no style boundary there. Both throwing and join locking have no style boundary.

"Wing chun requires that the mental be ahead of the physical. It is a system to develop skill, not a style.
...When wing chun is trained to a high level, there are no techniques." - Hawkins Cheung.

So who can say what is and what is not in VT? If you know throws ( and I dont see why anyone who calls himself a Kung Fu practitioner does not know at least one throw ) then you can use throws.
But throw such as "foot sweep" will require a special body mechanic. Those special body mechanic will require "special training". It doesn't come for free.

Some people like to say, "A kick is a step, and a step is a kick". I agree that "a kick can be a step" but I don't agree that "a step can be a kick". A kick will require much more training than just a step will require.

YouKnowWho

07-13-2014, 01:26 PM

IMHO, I think you are missing the point, and looking at it literally. I'm not sure if you study WC but this "saying" has deeper meanings, relevant to a mindset in training.
- Before you have trained kick, a step is only a step.
- After you have trained kick, a step can be a kick.

Just for your information, I started my WC training since 1973. Here is a clip to prove it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txBNp_bRqWw&feature=youtu.be

Vajramusti

07-13-2014, 02:50 PM

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1273575]But "foot sweep" is "foot sweep". There is no WC "foot sweep", long fist "foot sweep", Taiji "foot sweep", Baji "foot sweep", ... The "foot sweep" has no style boundary there. Both throwing and join locking have no style boundary.

------------------------------------------
That is your opinion. You have not done enough wing chun in that Austin experience to know a sweep from a wing chun structure.
Your video doinga wc form shows your wc limits.
I know wc folks who have done lots of sweeps and throws etc. You have stated your opinion and I have mine-
let's let it go at that.

Vajramusti

07-13-2014, 02:58 PM

Wayfaring

07-14-2014, 08:53 AM

But "foot sweep" is "foot sweep". There is no WC "foot sweep", long fist "foot sweep", Taiji "foot sweep", Baji "foot sweep", ... The "foot sweep" has no style boundary there. Both throwing and join locking have no style boundary.

They don't to you because you can traverse styles in this. But for the vast majority of this forum style boundaries are very real indeed. And when coming up against one, the mind says "I don't know if I SHOULD do this".

But throw such as "foot sweep" will require a special body mechanic. Those special body mechanic will require "special training". It doesn't come for free.

Yes, absolutely. I've had plenty of people try to foot sweep me and get me off my feet. The guy who can do it, Seth, has put in over 10,000 reps into the kick motion and other motions. Some foot sweeps are different than others too. If you think the opening motion in your SNT form is going to be sufficient to train you to take another fighter off their feet with a foot sweep, then that's delusional.

Some people like to say, "A kick is a step, and a step is a kick". I agree that "a kick can be a step" but I don't agree that "a step can be a kick". A kick will require much more training than just a step will require.

You can do a step-kick as one motion. But your point is valid regarding throws and wing chun. They require MUCH more training to be effective. A hidden throw whether it was originally intended as such or not in a wing chun form is not going to make someone effective at throws in short range. They would need to be isolated and drilled.

Grumblegeezer

07-14-2014, 01:48 PM

When you say "throw" what does that actually mean? I think sweeping or otherwise knocking someone down isn't a "throw". I can't even imagine where a throw would be in any dummy form I've seen.

OK LFJ, I'm taking a tour through whatever I can find on Youtube to address this question. Here's the first thing that I came across, and I think I'd agree with you that the structures and principles demonstrated aren't what I consider to be Wing Chun ...at least not my Wing Chun. Just too many things that don't fit. He's abandoned his WC structure, hunching over in the clinch (OK maybe that's because his opponent is so much shorter than he is), and concocts an overly complicated movement sequence to set up the throw, turning his back to his opponent, and so forth...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAZoTjdDtwM

Now this next one appears to start out better with the attacker slipping up the outside, pinning the defender's arm across and striking forward across the defender's throat. But then Pulling him back towards you over your lead leg in a "sacrifice throw"??? How about keeping forward intent and using a huen-bo to circle your leg around and behind your opponent's leg? Then your forward pressure, perhaps combined with a turn (if necessary) would uproot and toss your opponent to the ground without violating WC structure or principles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XAAR85_TiE

The following clip of WC Sifu Wang Zhi Peng has already been discussed at length. There are some throws in here that seem (to me) to be legit expressions of WC. For example the circle-step and arm throw at 1:36-8. I've succesfully used variations of that myself and it fell into place quite naturally in a "pure" WC context. Also, the stance disruption, hooking and sweeping with the lead leg as seen in 1:40-1:48 seems to be a logical adaptation of a pretty normal WC advancing step.

On the other hand, most of what he shows, especially after the "belt-snapping" exercise at 2:00 and onwards seems to be straight up shuai chiao and not WC. Yet he melds the arts pretty effectively. So while it's not my WC, it's still pretty cool as far as Chinese martial arts go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LSzcRCQZEI

Anybody else find some good clips relating to WC and throwing? Put 'em up!

Wait, wait, I'm back. I Just found another WC (WT) throw clip. These guys come from another branch of the the same LT lineage I studied back in in the 80s -90s. After watching this, I'm about ready to rip the cute little red-stripes off my pants. Sheesh! Applied long pole punches, eh? After watching this, please don't tell me that I'm the only one who wants to beat the guy doing "applied battle punches" with a pole, ...or a shoe, or whatever else I can lay my hands on! I learned "battle punches" as a training exercise, not as an excuse to abandon centerline and fight like a ...bad Hung Gar stylist. Or, perhaps that was the point of the video. I can only hope.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvggYhD0WnM

Wayfaring

07-14-2014, 07:21 PM

or the one that you use your "instep" to sweep at the back of your opponent's "ankle"? This is a "linear" foot sweep.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VC6aD8N1-8&feature=youtu.be

john just for support or whatever after reviewing both these videos they look pretty good mechanically. this linear and the other circular foot sweeps videos both look great from stuff I've seen from my perspective.

Grumblegeezer

07-14-2014, 09:47 PM

Hey guys, here's another clip of a very different WT guy working some throws, this time Sifu Yannis Simionidis. Some of the movements are pretty flashy, but others seem more down to earth. In fact at 2:09-2:12, he does a circle-step trip with an arm-throw very similar to the one demonstrated by Wang Zhi Peng above. At 0:36-39 he also uses his lead leg to hook his opponent's knee, pull and trip much like Wang Sifu.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaD2qDUEog8

Graham H

07-15-2014, 01:23 AM

Paddington

07-15-2014, 03:19 AM

More BS......................

So why not add anything? High kicks, jumping kicks, hook punches and grappling?

Some of you guys make me cringe. It's ok to add what YOU think is right and then you harp on about keeping things within the Wing Chun framework. Basically you all sound like you have been chucked in a swimming pool without the ability to swim.

The majority of the above comments are just laughable especially the one that said that the gum sau action in SLT could be a throw if you use you imagination! wtf?

Ah Graham, bless you! Actually Sihing73 did not say that, the bit I place in bold that is. He said;

[...]
The Gum Sau movements in the SNT, where you press downward alongside your body just after the first section.
You could conceivably use the energy there, the press downward to develop into a throw. [...]

'Develop' a throw. That is the key bit in that sentence. Look, you are placing yourself in an indefensible position Graham, given that you have been shown to be wrong with respects to our earlier discussion of PB. I think it is erroneous of you to go to the extreme of saying, 'why not add anything?'. Most people have been careful to consider take down techniques (perhaps a better term than just throws) that maintain a 'wing chun' posture as far as is possible.

Out of interest, did you ever get to the weapon's training stage with respects to training under PB? If not did you get to the weapon's training stage through the IP Chun lineage you trained under?

Graham H

07-15-2014, 04:53 AM

Ah Graham, bless you! Actually Sihing73 did not say that, the bit I place in bold that is. He said;

Yes he did! So now it's ok to say that certain actions can develop into something else? :eek::confused::confused:

You live in the clouds mate!

'Develop' a throw. That is the key bit in that sentence. Look, you are placing yourself in an indefensible position Graham, given that you have been shown to be wrong with respects to our earlier discussion of PB. I think it is erroneous of you to go to the extreme of saying, 'why not add anything?'. Most people have been careful to consider take down techniques (perhaps a better term than just throws) that maintain a 'wing chun' posture as far as is possible.

What? An indefensible position? I haven't been shown to be wrong in anything! You just haven't got a clue what you are talking about. Unlike you I have been able to study PB's method for a a good while now and have been lucky enough to been shown my errors and also listen to him speak on Ving Tsun. All you have got is guess work and you're not even really good at that.

Out of interest, did you ever get to the weapon's training stage with respects to training under PB? If not did you get to the weapon's training stage through the IP Chun lineage you trained under?

Did I ever get to the weapons? Really Paddington old boy you really are a bit of a tit! First you ask me how many hours I trained under PB and guessed at 30hrs and now you are questioning if I've had any weapons training.

What about this idea? I reckon you have a limited understanding of Wing Chun. What you do know is some sort of BS *******ized version of something that is completely useless and is made up of guess work based upon your own lack of knowledge and/or intensive training.

I have been involved in Ving Tsun for over 17 years. I have seen a lot of things from all over the place inside and outside of Hong Kong and to me you are just one of those usual idiot people that float around in WC acting like they know a bit but really you are trolling for information.

Without people like you the world of Ving Tsun would be a better place!

How's that sound?

Sihing73

07-15-2014, 05:36 AM

Yes he did! So now it's ok to say that certain actions can develop into something else? :eek::confused::confused:

Graham,

You are of course welcome to do Wing Chun any way you want. It is after all a highly personal system with no two people doing exactly the same thing.

My point, which seems to have been lost on you, is that Wing Chun forms are conceptual in nature. In other words, the techniques and movements do not have to be done in a set pattern for a specific result. Instead, the movements teach concepts and energy usage, imho. So, if you have the desire to look you can find things which fit outside of the box, in this case throws. Of course if you do not have the desire or need then you will never see the possibilities.

As to just adding anything into ones Wing Chun, there are still some parameters for something to be considered Wing Chun. Of course, as we have become exposed to other, varying lineages, some of us have found that there are greater parameters available. Keeping in mind that Wing Chun was allegedly developed from several other arts, making it an eclectic system, I feel one would be foolish to argue that Wing Chun has no room to continue to grow and evolve. Of course, there is a specific framework to be built upon.

Think of it like a car; while you can add things to your vehicle to make it perform better, those things still need to fit within the basic framework of whatever you are working with. Consider that you cannot simply take the engine from a Ford, for example, and put it into a Chevy. In almost all instance the engine will not fit into the Chevy without some major modifications if at all. Yet they are both still cars. The key to adding to ones Wing Chun, if one is predisposed to do so, is to find those parts which compliment and do not contradict ones own approach. If you are locked into a technical mindset then this will never happen. But, if you use a conceptual mindset then there are many possibilities.

I enjoy Silat and have been working to integrate this with my Wing Chun. Doubtless some will say I no longer do Wing Chun and that is okay. My concern is whether what I do works. I remember years ago while training in WT I did not like the Arnis/Kali of Rene Latosa. Nothing against this approach it just was not for me. I opted to train in Pekiti Tirsia instead. One of my seniors came to me and told me I should train in the Latosa system since that is what "everyone" else was doing. My reply was something like: "So I can train like you do and you can kick my but, or I can train like I am doing now and I can kick your but." Needless to say I kept what I was doing as I preferred to be the one kicking but. Of course, at that point my WT and theirs was different not only in technique but in concepts. Not necessarily better or worse, but was my personal approach which fit me and still does.

LFJ

07-15-2014, 05:39 AM

OK LFJ, I'm taking a tour through whatever I can find on Youtube to address this question.

None of those clips really addressed the question of where throws are in the dummy form. Also, yeah, I wouldn't say any of those are using Wing Chun, but adding stuff to it.

The only one worth anything, to my eyes, is WZP's, but he teaches Shuaijiao as a separate discipline, although he combines them in that clip. The only thing I see he did that I'd say could be considered Wing Chun is like the little hook @1:46. WSL used it sometimes in chi-sau as the action from the dummy form. I don't think foot sweeps are a problem. Tripping someone isn't really a throw.

My question for folks is where they think "throws" are found in their forms. Like the hip toss in the first clip. That guy made a point to say his arm wrap came from the CK form. So what about the hip toss then?

PalmStriker

07-15-2014, 05:40 AM

sanjuro_ronin

07-15-2014, 05:55 AM

Sihing73

07-15-2014, 06:03 AM

My question for folks is where they think "throws" are found in their forms. Like the hip toss in the first clip. That guy made a point to say his arm wrap came from the CK form. So what about the hip toss then?

Fair enough, would you consider that when one steps behind an opponents leg and uses that as a brace for him to "trip or fall" over while unbalancing them with hand movements to be a throw?? The hand movements can be an elbow strike or some sort of grab etc.

If you can accept that the above scenario meets the criteria for a throw then you can find examples of such in Wing Chun.

Since I like to think in terms of concepts and not specific techniques, to me you could find the "energy" for throws in many instances. When you grab the dummy head and pull towards you, with the proper foot position that could be a throw. When you do the turning movements within the CK where you are using Lan Sau or some may see elbow strikes, the very act of using your body as a single entity while turning could, in the right circumstances, present the opportunity to throw someone.

To my thinking, throws in Wing Chun are not like Hip or Shoulder throws, I think I said that already :), rather they are more like sweeps or foot throws. Utilizing that concept I can find throws all throughout my Wing Chun. Of course, one must have good balance and footwork for this to work. When I "throw" someone it is more like I put my leg in the way and allow them to fall over it, very little effort on my part, or so I strive for little effort. Then again, perhaps these are not throws as they certainly lack the appeal of Hip and Shoulder throws which are a bit more flashy.

So if you are looking for throws which look like Hip and Shoulder throws then no, I do not have those in my Wing Chun. However, if you accept Foot Throws and Sweeps then yes I do have those in my Wing Chun.

However, it is not enough to simply throw someone with a sweep or trip, one must also have the proper follow up to insure the throw does what is needed. I believe Wing Chun has the answer for that as well, though not a ground fighting art.

Buddha_Fist

07-15-2014, 07:13 AM

It always goes back to this:
What is WC?
Is it a technique based system?
That means that what is done is what makes it WC.
Is it a principle/concept based system?
That means that what is done is relevant to the core principles of the system, IE: HOW they are done.
The difference?
Well, in regards to this thread, if a throw does NOT violate the core principles of WC then it is WC ( whether the technique is in the original repatriate of techniques is irrelevant since WC, like any other MA, is/should be constantly evolving/improving which means techniques may be add OR removed at any given time).

So, where does that leave us?

It leaves us with the understanding that in a PRINCIPLE/CONCEPT based system ANY technique that does NOT violate those principles is a valid one and is/becomes WC.

Hmm...

Ving Tsun is a principle/concept based Chinese boxing method built around specific strategies and body mechanics. Ving Tsun techniques are a result of these body mechanics and strategies.

Does that mean that you cannot learn and use during a fight the skills that you learned from other martial arts? No, especially if their use didn't put you at jeopardy and they were the right tool for the situation. They can greatly enhance your arsenal.

Does this then mean that everything that does not violate the core principles of Ving Tsun is Ving Tsun? No, these other techniques simply are what they are (BJJ, Luta Livre, etc.). They are part of your fighting skill set, sure. But they are not in the Ving Tsun forms no matter how much imagination you use, and their most realistic and efficient practice is not through the Ving Tsun forms as these forms were created to support the Ving Tsun specific boxing framework and strategies.

The problem I personally see with the attitude of "anything can be Ving Tsun" is that many stop learning and training what Ving Tsun is really teaching, and start taking their training in too many directions with no specific simple blueprint. Then, when you see these people sparring, it looks like a bad version of Kickboxing or like a school fight between 6 year olds. Ving Tsun is extremely simple and direct in what it teaches to avoid this crap, as only the most simple things that got engrained into you will stick when the $hit hits the fan.

Now, JKD folks are a great example of people who recognized that not everything is Ving Tsun, not having a problem with calling the techniques by where they took them from. Given what they do is only in minor part Ving Tsun, they don't insist in calling non-Ving Tsun techniques Ving Tsun, but put it under the umbrella of JKD. There is no confusion in what they do, and you can see it their game.

LFJ

07-15-2014, 07:43 AM

@Sihing73

No, I can't consider tripping or otherwise knocking someone down to be a "throw" if no one is actually being thrown. But I agree, certain types of leg sweeps work well and are uncompromising to one's Wing Chun as they aren't in violation of the principles... at least the simple type of leg sweeps I'm thinking of, like those in the PB clips posted earlier. A throw, on the other hand, wouldn't fit in my system.

3rd form.....

So an arm wrap from CK and a bend at the waist from BJ... That's what I mean by forcibly contrived. I think people try to look for things in the forms that might look like something done in a throwing technique and then claim it to be WC so they can say they have a well-rounded style. There's no reason to reinvent the wheel with WC forms. One would be much better off learning an actual grappling style of some sort if they are that insecure about not being well-rounded.

Sihing73

07-15-2014, 07:50 AM

@Sihing73
No, I can't consider tripping or otherwise knocking someone down to be a "throw" if no one is actually being thrown. But I agree, certain types of leg sweeps work well and are uncompromising to one's Wing Chun as they aren't in violation of the principles... at least the simple type of leg sweeps I'm thinking of, like those in the PB clips posted earlier. A throw, on the other hand, wouldn't fit in my system.

Hmm, I understand where you are coming from but having done Judo many years ago I would have to say sweeps and the like are categorized as "throws". In Judo the category for Foot Throws is referred to as Ashi-waza or "Foot Throwing Techniques". While many in this category would not fit within the "accepted" framework of Wing Chun many others would. My point being that a foot sweep or where one has the opponent "trip" over ones leg is accepted as a "throw" in Judo.

sanjuro_ronin

07-15-2014, 07:54 AM

and here we get to the crux of the matter:

But they are not in the Ving Tsun forms no matter how much imagination you use, and their most realistic and efficient practice is not through the Ving Tsun forms as these forms were created to support the Ving Tsun specific boxing framework and strategies.

So, unless it is in a WC form, then it isn't WC?
So, WC is a technique based system.

Wayfaring

07-15-2014, 07:59 AM

Fair enough, would you consider that when one steps behind an opponents leg and uses that as a brace for him to "trip or fall" over while unbalancing them with hand movements to be a throw?? The hand movements can be an elbow strike or some sort of grab etc.

If you can accept that the above scenario meets the criteria for a throw then you can find examples of such in Wing Chun.

I'm not overly anal about what consists of a throw or trip. judo has plenty of both. In a fight, getting someone off their feet to the ground where you are on your feet has strategic advantage.

Since I like to think in terms of concepts and not specific techniques, to me you could find the "energy" for throws in many instances. When you grab the dummy head and pull towards you, with the proper foot position that could be a throw. When you do the turning movements within the CK where you are using Lan Sau or some may see elbow strikes, the very act of using your body as a single entity while turning could, in the right circumstances, present the opportunity to throw someone.

Absolutely. And since wing chun has a main effectiveness area in a close striking range the combination of close range strikes and body weight manipulation including pushing people over a leg or hip is very viable for a strategy. Whatever you want to name it. My sifu was particularly adept at stepping on people's feet - meaning the lead foot just by manipulating range. That always affected my balance and gave him an advantage.

To my thinking, throws in Wing Chun are not like Hip or Shoulder throws, I think I said that already :), rather they are more like sweeps or foot throws. Utilizing that concept I can find throws all throughout my Wing Chun. Of course, one must have good balance and footwork for this to work. When I "throw" someone it is more like I put my leg in the way and allow them to fall over it, very little effort on my part, or so I strive for little effort. Then again, perhaps these are not throws as they certainly lack the appeal of Hip and Shoulder throws which are a bit more flashy.

So if you are looking for throws which look like Hip and Shoulder throws then no, I do not have those in my Wing Chun. However, if you accept Foot Throws and Sweeps then yes I do have those in my Wing Chun.

No certainly the sacrifice throws and turning throws in judo where you expose your back violates WCK principles. But actually, they also violate BJJ principles. However, BJJ practitioners train them for competition because they work. In general WCK practitioners would avoid training anything at all that violates principles.

However, it is not enough to simply throw someone with a sweep or trip, one must also have the proper follow up to insure the throw does what is needed. I believe Wing Chun has the answer for that as well, though not a ground fighting art.

Very simply, whatever art it originates in, the answer here is once your opponent is on the ground, pursue them with footwork so they can't gain the distance to stand up. Work on stepping with your lead leg as close to the waist fold or bend of your opponent as you can. Stepping so your toes are touching the waist bend is awesome. From there once the opponent wears down a bit you can just sink your weight from the foot to knee on belly and continue striking. That to me is probably the position of control for WCK practitioners they want with an opponent on the ground.

Buddha_Fist

07-15-2014, 08:05 AM

and here we get to the crux of the matter:

So, unless it is in a WC form, then it isn't WC?
So, WC is a technique based system.

Never wrote this. Re-read my post.

Trying to fit things into the forms that are not there is in most cases a waste of time. Train those things the way that it is most efficient. Whether they are Ving Tsun or not is yet another story.

Ving Tsun is based on body mechanics that allow for the implementation of certain strategies. One can see these body mechanics in the Ving Tsun techniques/actions, they are an outcome of them.

sanjuro_ronin

07-15-2014, 08:08 AM

No certainly the sacrifice throws and turning throws in judo where you expose your back violates WCK principles. But actually, they also violate BJJ principles. However, BJJ practitioners train them for competition because they work. In general WCK practitioners would avoid training anything at all that violates principles.

One can argue that it isn't the principles BUT THEIR INTERPRETATION that they don't want to violate.
One can argue that no throw "exposes" your back because, when done correctly, the back is in a position that the opponent can't attack.

sanjuro_ronin

07-15-2014, 08:11 AM

Never wrote this. Re-read my post.

Trying to fit things into the forms that are not there is in most cases a waste of time. Train those things the way that it is most efficient. Whether they are Ving Tsun or not is yet another story.

Ving Tsun is based on body mechanics that allow for the implementation of certain strategies. One can see these body mechanics in the Ving Tsun techniques/actions, they are an outcome of them.

You wrote this:

But they are not in the Ving Tsun forms no matter how much imagination you use, and their most realistic and efficient practice is not through the Ving Tsun forms as these forms were created to support the Ving Tsun specific boxing framework and strategies.

Can you explain it better then?

Wayfaring

07-15-2014, 08:12 AM

"Wing chun requires that the mental be ahead of the physical. It is a system to develop skill, not a style.
...When wing chun is trained to a high level, there are no techniques." - Hawkins Cheung.

So who can say what is and what is not in VT? If you know throws ( and I dont see why anyone who calls himself a Kung Fu practitioner does not know at least one throw ) then you can use throws.

What is and is not in VT. Well if you look at the forms as an organized collection of techniques with a sequence to help catalog and remember an art, then technically I can see the perspective of people who say "they are not in VT". Why? Because they are not in the collection of moves named in the form. I don't know if EVERY lineage catalogs every single move in their forms, but mine does.

If you look at chi sau though, and yes everybody does it different but one core tenet is manipulating the opponents balance by getting their weight forward and back on their toes or heels from bridge pressure then chaining techniques to score when your opponent is unbalanced. The unbalancing of the weight of an opponent is a core tenet of throwing arts also. That is the entry into a throw or takedown.

What else? many of the wing chun masters also trained in other kung fu arts. so they could blend them in sparring or fighting if they wanted, and probably practiced that. however, to maintain integrity in their version of wing chun, they would limit their students to learn the VT art first and perfect the
techniques without blending them. then add a different art later after obtaining a certain mastery first. right now mma fighters struggle with this type of thing in getting really good at one core art first then blending. that's the best approach. but mma training is pretty piecemeal now - a bjj class, a MT class, etc.

Wayfaring

07-15-2014, 08:22 AM

One can argue that it isn't the principles BUT THEIR INTERPRETATION that they don't want to violate.
One can argue that no throw "exposes" your back because, when done correctly, the back is in a position that the opponent can't attack.

Very valid points.

In my view when I think of exposing my back or not, it's not so much when I do the technique correctly, it's what position I'm in if I miss the technique. I'm more specifically thinking of all those drop seoi nage throws where I didn't get enough bite on the arm and end up in a turtle position with someone on my back. However, it's all of those that have helped me with the timing and situations where I should go for it.

I guess some of this is discussing knowing principles well enough that you know where and how to violate them.

sanjuro_ronin

07-15-2014, 08:43 AM

Very valid points.

In my view when I think of exposing my back or not, it's not so much when I do the technique correctly, it's what position I'm in if I miss the technique. I'm more specifically thinking of all those drop seoi nage throws where I didn't get enough bite on the arm and end up in a turtle position with someone on my back. However, it's all of those that have helped me with the timing and situations where I should go for it.

I guess some of this is discussing knowing principles well enough that you know where and how to violate them.

I have never been a fan of principles and concepts "set in stone", especially since all we are going on is someone else view of what they mean.
Heck, for all we know the developer of WC may have thought that the center line principle was simply a place to start.
Every system needs a core BUT to what extend one must remain fixed and rigid to that core is, IMO, dependent on many things.

Buddha_Fist

07-15-2014, 08:45 AM

You wrote this:

Can you explain it better then?

That portion followed up on the point raised earlier on the thread about things that are or are not in the forms. I guess I should have put that in a separate paragraph so as to not confuse you. The ideas still stand though and are relatively simple to follow.

LFJ

07-15-2014, 10:02 AM

Being that Wing Chun Forms are conceptual in nature, one can argue for there being throws within the system.

We have different understandings of what it means for the system to be conceptual. For a single action to be interpreted into several possible applications is considered conceptual to some. To me that is basically taking an action and saying let's try to imagine what it could be, rather than the system clearly teaching something. Not very useful or efficient, in my opinion, especially for beginners. In the end, you're still dealing with various applications, making it technique-based. You just have a creative license.

Rather, in the system I train, the actions in the forms introduce specific fighting concepts and principles that form the system, or they help to train one's body to properly ingrain those as habits, which of course requires stress through partner training. That's why the whole system is coherent from start to finish. The forms, the drills, the sparring- they are all part of a development system with clear concepts and principles for combat behind it. For example, the elbow behavior is the "young idea" from the first form and remains a main idea in the other forms, in the beginning stages of partner training with daan-chi-sau, and through everything else in the system. Of course then BJ and BJD differ conceptually, but for a necessary reason.

In the former point of view, Wing Chun could be almost anything you want it to be. In the latter, it is a specific conceptual approach to combat that must be kept simple, direct and efficient. Two different understandings of what concept-based means. So we may be talking past each other even on the most basic point where it seems we should agree.

JPinAZ

07-15-2014, 10:07 AM

YouKnowWho

07-15-2014, 10:44 AM

turning throws in judo where you expose your back violates WCK principles. But actually, they also violate BJJ principles.

To turn your back into your opponent while his arm is free is always a bad idea, and should be avoided as much as possible. In the following clip, when he applies a "shoulder throw", his opponent's left arm are free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs2vKMN4HpA

- His free arm can wrap your waist, spin with you, and drag you all the way down to the ground.
- His free arm can hook punch on your head.
- He can even use his free hand to pull your head back.

8858

I had pointed this out in a Judo discussion and make many Judo guys unhappy about it. They all believe that if you spin fast, your opponent won't have time to do anything to you. The problem is what if your opponent is also fast.

However, when there is a problem, there is always a solution for it. If you use "under hook" to lift your opponent's shoulder when you turn your back into him, since his free arm will be lifted by your "under hook", he can't use his arm to wrap your waist. You will be quite safe even you turn you back into your opponent.

YouKnowWho

07-15-2014, 10:51 AM

One can argue that no throw "exposes" your back because, when done correctly, the back is in a position that the opponent can't attack.

Agree! All principle can be violated as long as you know how to "violate" it. Here is a good example for it. When he turns his back into his opponent, his opponent's left arm is disabled. His opponent's right hand is too far away from him to do anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtIXgZu9OcQ&list=UULKtKW6DtNNBhOmDYlND4Qg

Similar discussion had been done in the Taiji thread. The Taiji principle says that you should always keep your head straight. With that in mind, all body contact throws will violate that Taiji principle.

The question is which one is more important? To follow the:

- WC principle? or
- throwing art principle?

When both principles has conflict, which one should you follow?

Vajramusti

07-15-2014, 11:54 AM

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1273656]and here we get to the crux of the matter:

So, unless it is in a WC form, then it isn't WC?
So, WC is a technique based system.[/QUOTE-------------------

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Not correct for me. But wing chun has become so hopelessly diverse folks are speaking quite different languages.
I can't comment for anyone else but can comment from my perspective (based on a major Ip man line).

The forms are not the total collection of techniques. They are principles of motion important for connecting the skeletal system
in different ways for balancing, power and efficiencies including not wasting power. Chi sao is the lab where you develop more timing and
applications against other folks. Forms are empty without chi sao and chi sao is blind without understanding the forms. A bong sao when doing the forms
will be adjusted to handle the situation. Adjustment is one of several principles but through experience one learns how much and when to adjust.

Wing chun is NOT the only way to fight. But if you choose wing chun and get a first class teacher you can do a good job inthe TCMA tradition-
you can defend, attack, throw, break and deal with cavities.

Grumblegeezer

07-15-2014, 12:57 PM

...Wing chun is NOT the only way to fight. But if you choose wing chun and get a first class teacher you can do a good job inthe TCMA tradition- you can defend, attack, throw, break and deal with cavities.

Agreed, although for the last one, I'll go to the dentist. In fact I just did, ...last week.

Actually, I better run that by my wife. She's a dental hygienist. ..."Honey, forget all that stuff you learned in school. With WC, we fill cavities with fists!!!"

No, on the other hand, that could be taken the wrong way. Really wrong. Good thing Bawang isn't around lately.

trubblman

07-15-2014, 03:49 PM

I have never been a fan of principles and concepts "set in stone", especially since all we are going on is someone else view of what they mean.
Heck, for all we know the developer of WC may have thought that the center line principle was simply a place to start.
.

Exactly so

YouKnowWho

07-15-2014, 05:17 PM

exposing my back...

If we don't talk about "throwing" and just talk about "locking", some "locking" do require that you expose you back toward your opponent. Do you want to stay away from those moves just because it doesn't fit to your style principle?

In the following clip,

- you have controlled your opponent's right arm.
- You move yourself toward his right side door.
- His left hand can't reach you.

There is no danger to expose your back to your opponent at that moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NF40qFlTqck&feature=youtu.be

LFJ

07-15-2014, 06:48 PM

Do you want to stay away from those moves just because it doesn't fit to your style principle?

I wouldn't say so. It's just that Wing Chun is much more efficient and much less of a gamble if your technique doesn't work out as hoped.

Wayfaring

07-15-2014, 11:28 PM

To turn your back into your opponent while his arm is free is always a bad idea, and should be avoided as much as possible. In the following clip, when he applies a "shoulder throw", his opponent's left arm are free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs2vKMN4HpA

- His free arm can wrap your waist, spin with you, and drag you all the way down to the ground.
- His free arm can hook punch on your head.
- He can even use his free hand to pull your head back.

Yes that judo throw execution isn't very good in that clip - he does nothing to his opponent's structure thru most of the throw entry. No kuzushi.

I had pointed this out in a Judo discussion and make many Judo guys unhappy about it. They all believe that if you spin fast, your opponent won't have time to do anything to you. The problem is what if your opponent is also fast.

That throw doesn't have much to do with spinning fast at all. It has to do with locking the arm to yours and driving as you turn. Now there is an effective kuzushi entry where you circle away from the throw with a grip then turn into it quickly. This may be what they were referring to spinning fast but in actuality it's not that but the hard setup.

However, when there is a problem, there is always a solution for it. If you use "under hook" to lift your opponent's shoulder when you turn your back into him, since his free arm will be lifted by your "under hook", he can't use his arm to wrap your waist. You will be quite safe even you turn you back into your opponent.

Yes better fundamentals shut down counters. I had done this throw for a couple years before I was introduced to some of the Sambo drilling they do with it, which kind of ingrains in locking the arm and driving quickly, much different than that clip.

Frost

07-15-2014, 11:37 PM

To turn your back into your opponent while his arm is free is always a bad idea, and should be avoided as much as possible. In the following clip, when he applies a "shoulder throw", his opponent's left arm are free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs2vKMN4HpA

- His free arm can wrap your waist, spin with you, and drag you all the way down to the ground.
- His free arm can hook punch on your head.
- He can even use his free hand to pull your head back.

8858

I had pointed this out in a Judo discussion and make many Judo guys unhappy about it. They all believe that if you spin fast, your opponent won't have time to do anything to you. The problem is what if your opponent is also fast.

However, when there is a problem, there is always a solution for it. If you use "under hook" to lift your opponent's shoulder when you turn your back into him, since his free arm will be lifted by your "under hook", he can't use his arm to wrap your waist. You will be quite safe even you turn you back into your opponent.
actually in that discussion it was pointed out that said throw was one of the higher percentage throws you see in competition, and it was also pointed out that you need to break their balance before turning, they werent unhappy with you they simply thought you were wrong and posted clips of the throw being used to prove it

Paddington

07-16-2014, 05:05 AM

Yes he did! So now it's ok to say that certain actions can develop into something else? :eek::confused::confused:

You live in the clouds mate!

What? An indefensible position? I haven't been shown to be wrong in anything! You just haven't got a clue what you are talking about. Unlike you I have been able to study PB's method for a a good while now and have been lucky enough to been shown my errors and also listen to him speak on Ving Tsun. All you have got is guess work and you're not even really good at that.

Did I ever get to the weapons? Really Paddington old boy you really are a bit of a tit! First you ask me how many hours I trained under PB and guessed at 30hrs and now you are questioning if I've had any weapons training.

What about this idea? I reckon you have a limited understanding of Wing Chun. What you do know is some sort of BS *******ized version of something that is completely useless and is made up of guess work based upon your own lack of knowledge and/or intensive training.

I have been involved in Ving Tsun for over 17 years. I have seen a lot of things from all over the place inside and outside of Hong Kong and to me you are just one of those usual idiot people that float around in WC acting like they know a bit but really you are trolling for information.

Without people like you the world of Ving Tsun would be a better place!

How's that sound?

Graham, you were proved wrong when it was shown, contrary to your assertions, that there are videos of PB using trips and sweeps to destabilize and floor people. I think my asking about how much time you have spent training directly with PB is perfectly valid given your errors. It is perhaps even more valid given your previous comments that people did not get the 'correct' understanding of WSL because they only spent a few hours being directly taught by him. Equally I feel this standard should be applied to you with respects to what you understand of PB's system.

I would also add that people have given you plenty of opportunity to talk about your understanding but you often refuse to comment. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to believe that you do not have said knowledge and understanding. As for my understanding I don't make any claims but rather actually state my understanding through examples by sharing it. That is totally different from trolling for information, as you say, besides, forums like this exist to put ideas forward and to read others to get a better understanding. I am sorry that you fail to realise this.