Bruce Lee vs. Gary Elms

[MysticNinjaJay]

Anyone familiar with Bruce Lee's background has heard that he won an amateur high school Boxing tournament in Hong Kong. I've read that the Boxer that he won the championship against was Gary Elms, a 3-time champion of the event. There are a lot of Bruce Lee haters out there who doubt his fighting record and many say that they don't believe that Gary Elms exists. He's not on Boxrec. There's no official Boxing record for him reported anywhere but he wasn't a professional Boxer so I wouldn't expect there to be. I did read that there was an eye witness to the event who reported on it named Rolf Clausnitzer. In any interview Clausnitzer states that Gary Elms was a classmate of his at King George V School in Kowloon, Hong Kong. I notice that he posted on Kung Fu Magazine Forum a few years ago. Is anyone here still in contact with Rolf? I'd like to know if he or anyone else has verifiable evidence of the existence of Gary Elms. If we could get a picture of him that would be great.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Does anyone know anything about this topic? I'm still searching for evidence of the existence of Gary Elms.

[lkfmdc]

People like to blow everything that bruce lee did up into a huge event...

A bunch of high school kids in HK doing amateur boxing, and Bruce Lee MIGHT have won
Big woopty doooooo!!!
It isn't exactly like winning the golden gloves in NY, Chicago or Detroit

BUt I supposed when you don't have much, you cling to what you got

[MysticNinjaJay]

People like to blow everything that bruce lee did up into a huge event...

A bunch of high school kids in HK doing amateur boxing, and Bruce Lee MIGHT have won
Big woopty doooooo!!!
It isn't exactly like winning the golden gloves in NY, Chicago or Detroit

BUt I supposed when you don't have much, you cling to what you got

I agree that it isn't some major accomplishment but Bruce Lee critics won't even allow him that! They try to discredit anything involving Bruce Lee and real fighting.

[lkfmdc]

I agree that it isn't some major accomplishment but Bruce Lee critics won't even allow him that! They try to discredit anything involving Bruce Lee and real fighting.

In large part that is because of all the outright lies the Lee camp has told and the scarcity of real events......

Some might even suspect beating a "white kid" was more propaganda... wasn't good enough to beat some Chinese kids in HK

And let us not forget that some dude who MIGHT have done SOME karate, maybe a few lessons at the YMCA? suddenly became some sort of Karate master.... :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

There are lesser known individuals with actual fight records.
It's silly to attribute Bruce Lee as some great world champion fighter.
He never was that.

He was into martial arts, wrote about it and mostly, his focus was on being a movie star.

It's not about not giving Bruce Lee credit as a fighter. It's more about the Bruce Lee fans needing to come to terms with the fact that he never really was one on a professional circuit making his bread and butter through fighting.

Appreciate the man for who and what he was, and if that isn't enough for you, move on? His movies were great and they inspired a whole generation to start looking at Chinese martial arts. His books got people that were already into Asian martial arts a different perspective.

Reality is important.

[Jimbo]

I agree that it isn't some major accomplishment but Bruce Lee critics won't even allow him that! They try to discredit anything involving Bruce Lee and real fighting.

There are those critics who won't give BL credit for anything...and then there's the BL worshippers who view him as godlike. Back in the 70s, some people even compared BL to Jesus Christ, believing him a prophet, who also died at age 32(!).

In recent years it's been happening in the Ip Man movies, portraying Ip Man as having beaten a "world heavyweight boxing champion," and able to easily take out 10 black belt karate men at one time. I know the movies are for entertainment, but the idea that Ip Man faced a "world champion boxer" in a supposedly semi-biographical movie is especially ludicrous, even in a fictional sense. A "foreign boxer" would have been enough.

[MysticNinjaJay]

In large part that is because of all the outright lies the Lee camp has told and the scarcity of real events......

What outright lies are you referring to?


Some might even suspect beating a "white kid" was more propaganda... wasn't good enough to beat some Chinese kids in HK


Are you talking about Gary Elms? Why would his race matter?


And let us not forget that some dude who MIGHT have done SOME karate, maybe a few lessons at the YMCA? suddenly became some sort of Karate master.... :rolleyes:

Jesse Glover has a lot of detail about this in his book. I don't think he recalled the man's name but apparently he was a legitimate Japanese Karate Black belt who harassed Bruce Lee in to fighting him then got put in his place.


There are lesser known individuals with actual fight records.
It's silly to attribute Bruce Lee as some great world champion fighter.
He never was that.

He was into martial arts, wrote about it and mostly, his focus was on being a movie star.

It's not about not giving Bruce Lee credit as a fighter. It's more about the Bruce Lee fans needing to come to terms with the fact that he never really was one on a professional circuit making his bread and butter through fighting.

Appreciate the man for who and what he was, and if that isn't enough for you, move on? His movies were great and they inspired a whole generation to start looking at Chinese martial arts. His books got people that were already into Asian martial arts a different perspective.

Reality is important.

I agree that he should be respected more for what he focused on: teaching, philosophy and acting. Bruce Lee fans, myself included, defend him as at least a decent fighter by the standards of the day because we feel that we are defending the credibility of a great contributor to the Martial Arts, indeed its greatest icon. I don't feel Bruce Lee was on the level of modern professional fighters like world champion Boxers and Mixed Martial Artists. I have heard interesting stories of him sparring with Karate champions and getting the better of them.

Example:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CYHzi7jDG8

Then you have to consider that while he wasn't a professional fighter he did get in to fights. That Karate master in Seattle and Wong Jack Man in Oakland being two well-known examples but also Gary Elms and the other people he beat in the Boxing tournament. The Boxing tournament is significant to me because it is the only documentation of him in full-contact competition. But many Bruce Lee critics/haters don't want to give him credit for it. I want to see if we can verify or falsify the claim.

Here's some more information on the fight.....

From a 1982 edition of Black Belt Magazine:

http://i58.tinypic.com/i52kyd.png


http://www.wingchun.com/ROLF.htm

DP: So, how was their match together? As an eyewitness, what can you say about the fight?


RC: His bout with Bruce turned out to be the most amazing and bizarre boxing match I have ever seen and expect to see. I honestly believe that Gary did not land even one single scoring punch throughout the entire 3 x 1 minute rounds, with Bruce deflecting and taking all of Gary's punches on his arms. Gary was knocked down several times, but he was not knocked out (contrary to what has been reported in various articles and books!) and, even more surprisingly, he did not appear to be hurt or distressed. Each time he was floored, he would immediately jump back up. That's why the referee did not stop the fight. Notwithstanding Gary's extraordinary toughness, I was amazed to see him survive the bout in such good shape. It was not until later when I caught up with Frank that some sort of explanation emerged.

DP: Do you recall what your brother Frank told you about this?

RC: Apparently, when Frank and his friends went to congratulate Bruce after the bout, Bruce was shaking his head and looking far from pleased with himself. His reply to Frank's obvious question was something along the lines of, "**** it, I couldn't knock the guy out". His rationalisation was that the large (16oz?) gloves neutralised the intended, penetrating effect of tilting the wrist on impact, a practice common to many Wing Chun practitioners (I gather he abandoned this practice in later years). He reckoned that this force was not penetrating the padding and, in any case, Gary was already being propelled backwards from the pushing impact of the glove. He swore that he would continue training until he could achieve the penetration he wanted. He also had his sights set on Peter Burton, a stylish and hard punching boxer from St George's School (which was exclusively for the children of British Armed Forces personnel in Hong Kong), a much bigger and heavier competitor who had TKO'd his opponent in the second round. By the way, Frank and I met Peter (who turned out to be half German as well) at a party a few weeks later and we talked about Bruce, but it's unlikely that such a bout would ever have been approved because of the weight and size differences and, in any case, Bruce left for the USA a few months later to begin a new chapter in his amazing life.


There are those critics who won't give BL credit for anything...and then there's the BL worshippers who view him as godlike. Back in the 70s, some people even compared BL to Jesus Christ, believing him a prophet, who also died at age 32(!).

In recent years it's been happening in the Ip Man movies, portraying Ip Man as having beaten a "world heavyweight boxing champion," and able to easily take out 10 black belt karate men at one time. I know the movies are for entertainment, but the idea that Ip Man faced a "world champion boxer" in a supposedly semi-biographical movie is especially ludicrous, even in a fictional sense. A "foreign boxer" would have been enough.

His they really created quite a mythology with the Ip Man movies. Have you seen the movie Young Bruce Lee? The movie is about Bruce Lee as a teenager before he came to America. He was in a gang (really a group of friends goofing off) and he ended up getting in a fight with a British boy from a local school(based on Gary Elms). Bruce Lee ofcourse wins the Boxing match and then they have a rematch at a disclosed location with no rules. I found the movie to be entertaining but it also adds to the mythology of Bruce Lee with its fictional events.

[lkfmdc]

If you're kind; you say that his friends and family of course have fond memory of their friend, who died too young and was lost forever to them

If you are little more cynical, you can suggest that many of them wouldn't have made the money, achieved the fame or become who they were if it wasn't for the cult of Bruce Lee

[MysticNinjaJay]

If you're kind; you say that his friends and family of course have fond memory of their friend, who died too young and was lost forever to them

If you are little more cynical, you can suggest that many of them wouldn't have made the money, achieved the fame or become who they were if it wasn't for the cult of Bruce Lee

Certainly Bruce Lee's friends and family have profited from the image of Bruce Lee and have motive to defend that image but I think the credibility of their claim should be based on evidence and logic. When Jim Kelly says that Bruce Lee was the Michael Jordan of sparring and untouchable I do have to express some skepticism for the claim because no one is untouchable but maybe he was at least impressive in sparring.

What evidence though do you have that the Bruce Lee camp have outright lied about Bruce Lee?

Why would you think the story of Bruce Lee beating a Boxing champion is less credible because the boy was White?

[Fa Xing]

Certainly Bruce Lee's friends and family have profited from the image of Bruce Lee and have motive to defend that image but I think the credibility of their claim should be based on evidence and logic. When Jim Kelly says that Bruce Lee was the Michael Jordan of sparring and untouchable I do have to express some skepticism for the claim because no one is untouchable but maybe he was at least impressive in sparring.

What evidence though do you have that the Bruce Lee camp have outright lied about Bruce Lee?

Why would you think the story of Bruce Lee beating a Boxing champion is less credible because the boy was White?

I'd like to know the answers as well.

Personally, it has no bearing on what any of us can do in terms of fighting. I personally Bruce Lee's principles and philosophy intriguing because I studied with a few people under him, his stuff has worked for me plenty of times, namely: closest weapon to nearest target, always think of hitting, and forward pressure. His 5 ways of attack are also a genius example of what every martial art has to some degree.

I quite frankly could give a rat's ass what most of you think about him or what he did or did not accomplish. Dave, I have great deal of respect for what you have done in your career, but I wonder what experience, if any, that you have had with the JKD community no matter how small.

[pazman]

9308

Cool, it must be time for my annual posting in a Bruce Lee thread.

[lkfmdc]

I wonder what experience, if any, that you have had with the JKD community

yeah, I mean, 40 years in this ****, in a big city like New York and traveling around the country and the world, I must have never seen JKD... :rolleyes:

[bawang]

i dont care much for bruce lee as a martial artist but i can sympathize with him as a human being. trying to make it in the 60s hollywood is tough for a colored feller.

its sad that in trying to break stereotypes bruce lee created a new one.

[Fa Xing]

yeah, I mean, 40 years in this ****, in a big city like New York and traveling around the country and the world, I must have never seen JKD... :rolleyes:

Kind of the reply I expected :rolleyes:, I shouldn't have bothered.

[bawang]

Kind of the reply I expected :rolleyes:, I shouldn't have bothered.

you dare roll eyes at david ross?

[lkfmdc]

Kind of the reply I expected :rolleyes:, I shouldn't have bothered.

here's a brush, take the sand out of your panties....

[David Jamieson]

bloody martial artists, always up in each others faces. :mad:


:p

try to chill. BL is a beacon of emotionally charged hyperbole waiting to happen in a MA forum.

[lkfmdc]

Bruce Lee, with both hands tied behind his back, killed TWO bears at the age of just three....

It's in one of the books his students published! It must be true!

[MysticNinjaJay]

Bruce Lee, with both hands tied behind his back, killed TWO bears at the age of just three....

It's in one of the books his students published! It must be true!

Care to answer my questions?

[lkfmdc]

NO one bilking cash off the image and myth of Bruce Lee wants to discuss the truth of things
They almost crucified this guy for discussing things the estate didn't want you do know
http://memberfiles.freewebs.com/79/22/75842279/documents/UNSETTLEDMATTERS.pdf

[PalmStriker]

i dont care much for bruce lee as a martial artist but i can sympathize with him as a human being. trying to make it in the 60s hollywood is tough for a colored feller.

its sad that in trying to break stereotypes bruce lee created a new one. :D " What would Jee,... uh, I mean, Bruce Lee do? "

[David Jamieson]

"Gary Elms"

Why does this sound like a Pokemon trainer name?

[MightyB]

9310
..... :) .....

[lkfmdc]

more like "I was smoking this serious bowl dude, and I decided to quote Krishnamurti, and people were like wow Bruce, you're so deep"

[lkfmdc]

9311

"I only smoke TWICE today Linda, I swear"

[Fa Xing]

here's a brush, take the sand out of your panties....

Wow, an immature response! What a big, ****ing surprise! Honestly, when you develop mental faculties greater than a 12 year old, maybe I'd be interested in having an actual intelligent conversation. Don't worry, I won't hold my breath!

Quite frankly, I don't necessarily disagree with you on something. Saying that Bruce is and will always be the greatest is a little childish, and something I have not said myself. I have seen things that Bruce Lee has pulled off (1-inch punch, finger push ups, etc.) done by other people, who were much better at that stuff. It once again comes down to the one thing that impresses me about Bruce, and that is how he looked at fighting. I'm going back to my work.

Happy training!

[lkfmdc]

It once again comes down to the one thing that impresses me about Bruce, and that is how he looked at fighting.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3q381ae0jI

That is the only footage of Bruce Lee doing anything like "fighting"
You find that impressive?

[Fa Xing]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3q381ae0jI

That is the only footage of Bruce Lee doing anything like "fighting"
You find that impressive?

For the time-period, yes. But I'm no arguing about he looked in 1967, I'm arguing for his principles and philosophy as they are applied to fighting.

[MightyB]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0IGPLXOK_I

[boxerbilly]

I have yet to see anyone do what he did in his films. Guys come close but there is always something lacking.

Point is, he was better than us then . If he was alive today knowing what we know now. He would be better than us still . He had what the rest of us did not.

Enough guys have come forward and stated how good he was. If Joe Lewis thought the guy was **** do you really think he would have spent all that time learning from him?

That old sparring footage. If anyone think it looks bad, compare it to his contemporaries.

[boxerbilly]

I recall seeing a Canadian movie. I forget the title and when it was made. It was about a boxer but not much ring stuff. Street stuff. They guy that played that part, he moved as good as Bruce Lee on film. But it was punches only. They captured the speed and power and snap like Lee. The finesse. It was really good choreography but it was the actor that made it great. Sorry I just can't recall anything other than that. Sorry.

So in all the knock off Lee's and other guys that became film stars, though many were great on film, none approached what he had in my opinion but some actor in a low budget Canadian film.

That said, IP MAN , is my favorite MA film at present.

[lkfmdc]

That old sparring footage. If anyone think it looks bad, compare it to his contemporaries.

1964 Kyokushinkai vs Muay Thai
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zpMAVcvH5Q

[lkfmdc]

1964 same event
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StQrF39iTKk

Just Muay Thai
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7Dtm23xEyg

Apidet would have killed Bruce
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA8UCfYNRho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1A_e4lNBTQ8

[boxerbilly]

Nice, thank you for those links. Never seen that before.

Was Bruce at Oyamas First event in the US? I cant recall. I know he made a couple of trips to NY. The one Gary Alexander Won. Also, is that not the one Counte Dante got disqualified from? Alexander said he knocked him out quick, yet he was disqualified? I wish someone had footage of that event and that fight.

By the way, I withdraw my previous comment except, he was still better than all of us, lol!

[pazman]

Has anyone heard of Muhammad Ali? Somebody told me he was a great fighter during Bruce's era and there is extensive fight footage of him, but it must be very rare, very secret. I can't even find what movies he was in. Did he have a black belt?

[boxerbilly]

Don't know but I think he trained with Dillman for a small time.

[MightyB]

Has anyone heard of Muhammad Ali? Somebody told me he was a great fighter during Bruce's era and there is extensive fight footage of him, but it must be very rare, very secret. I can't even find what movies he was in. Did he have a black belt?

sometimes he went by the name of Cassius Clay.

[MightyB]

Apidet would have killed Bruce


I think Bruce would've trained appropriately for the event, so we really don't and can't know the outcome. What we do know is that BL has a legacy that will live on forever. At this point, does it matter? His philosophy, whether contrived or created endures in MMA and modern self defense. His name belongs right up there with Kano and Gracie because of their profound influence in the development of modern martial arts.

[lkfmdc]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apidej_Sit-Hirun

Apidej Sit-Hirun (September 1941 – April 4, 2013), born Narong Yaenprateep, was a famous muay Thai fighter.[1] Born in Samut Songkhram, Thailand, Sit-Hirun was best known for his powerful kicks. In one fight, he broke both of Sompong Charoenmuang's arms, and forced the fighter to retire. He is considered the hardest kicker in muay Thai history. Apidej simultaneously held no less than seven muay Thai and boxing titles for a period during the 1960s.[2] Thereafter, he was acclaimed as a national hero and Muay Thai Fighter of the Century by HRH King Bhumibol Adulyadej.[3] After his retirement, Apidej taught as an instructor at the Fairtex school outside Bangkok, Thailand alongside modern champions such as Yodsaenklai Fairtex and Kaew Fairtex. He died of lung cancer at the age of 72 on April 4, 2013, at Phramongkutklao Hospital, Bangkok

The Wiki source fails to mention the two guys who DIED because of his kicks.... yes, trained, very well conditioned professional fighters that DIED

[lkfmdc]

His philosophy, whether contrived or



"his" philosophy was the borrowed notes from his philosophy classes at college. Things people attribute to him actually come from people like Krishnamurti

his ideas on "combat" are the notes he took from boxer Edwin Haislet, and fencers Hugo and James Castello

His estate lost in court regarding this;

[David Jamieson]

Probably in everyone's best interest to not get confused by movie fu vs actual fighting.

All film fighting is choreographed. To the smallest move. Especially in large productions. There is nothing improvised really.

In actual fighting, it is the training that reveals the ability of the fighter.

Before we get tied up into a pile of knots over Bruce Lee and his non existent fighter record vs actual fighters, the points about movie making need to be considered.

Film fighting, in and of itself is interesting. Bruce Lee was integral to the inspirational surge of martial arts practice in North America and Western Europe.

[lkfmdc]

Before we get tied up into a pile of knots over Bruce Lee and his non existent fighter record vs actual fighters



Bruce Lee wanted to be a movie star, that he achieved in spades... he wanted to change the perception of asians in the west, again, major victory....

As for his accomplishments in the martial arts, much of what is attributed to his "genius" were the thoughts of other men, much of what is attributed to his "unique approach" were the approaches of others. To speak of his "fights" is to speak of second and third hand tales, many of which even on the face of them raise questions. A quick examination of available footage and his sparring is weak, the heavy bag clip is just sad...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aObGLTfJa1w

People want to say he was unique for his age; yet in Thailand men with much more skill were actively fighting, the Kyokushinkai was also open to all challenges, Vale Tudo matches were taking place in Brazil and there was the South East Asian Cup. It is WELL KNOWN that Bruce Lee attended one of these when it was in Hong Kong. He "hid" under glasses and a hat and sat in the far back....

[sanjuro_ronin]

I liked Bruce Lee.
He pointed out common sense stuff that was being ignored ( by some) in his time and was instrumental in spreading kung fu to the world.
His MA legacy is people that value practicality over tradition WHEN the two are at odds.
Nothing wrong with that.

In short, I take Bruce Lee for what He was and disregard what he was not.

[iunojupiter]

Much like all improvements and innovations, Lee stood on the shoulders of giants, and applied their knowledge to new materials and came out with fantastic results.

Were his ideas original? No, and Yes. No, as they were not "his" but yes because he applied them to new situations and the application to those situations was "his". So argue all you want that he took from here and took from there and bla bla bla.

lkfmdc, you take your knowledge from your training in TCMA and apply it to other venues, with successful results. Are your appropriations any different than Lee's? On a basic level, no, they are not. The only difference between you and him is you don't have a cult following praising your genius. Get over it. His ideas were sound and innovative for the time and place he implemented them. That's his "genius".
So he wasn't a fighter. He trained champion fighters using his methods derived from his innovations. Kind of like you. You're not a champion fighter, but your students are.

Was Lee a martial arts god? Absolutely not. Was he instrumental in the spread and love of asian martial arts in the western world, absolutely yes.

I like Bruce Lee. Do I care that he wanted to be a movie star more than anything else and he wasn't a fighter himself? No, because on his path to achieving his goals, his contributions to the martial arts community were excellent. I'm also not surprised that so many fantastic stories surround the man, and know that generations from now, he will have a mythical quality applied to his legacy, like many before him. It's human nature, and it's bound to happen.

[Jimbo]

I remember a long time ago reading an account where Bruce told someone there was no way he would beat Muhammad Ali in a fight. I never met BL, but it seems a lot of the "Bruce Lee the Unbeatable Fighter" image is by people who either profited off of his name, or those who confuse his onscreen exploits with real life. The latter would be equivalent to proclaiming Clint Eastwood as "The Greatest Gunfighter of All Time". I really doubt that BL himself ever claimed to be the best fighter.

A lot of the philosophy credited to BL was also taken from Japanese sources, such as Miyamoto Musashi, Takuan Soho, and others.

I liked BL and still do. There's the image his worshippers carry; there's the image his biggest critics carry; and then there's simply who BL was and what he accomplished, like him or not.

[lkfmdc]

It's hard to know what Bruce Lee really "thought" or even what he claimed. He died young, and most of his public efforts were towards his ACTING CAREER...

Pretty much all of the Bruce Lee body of work comes through the filter of his estate and his students, both of which had a very vested interest in him....

Whether it was just love for a dear friend they lost, or the fact a guy who was a phys ed and driving teacher became one of the richest men in the world, there is an interest at work

It is a touchy subject even in the so called "JKD world"... where half of them moved on the more progressive training while the other half has fallen into their own "classical mess"

But a few facts are apperent; (1) He wasn't the super fighter people want you to believe he was. Nor were his skills all that astounding. There were much better, real fighters in his days. His bag clip is sad. (2) Tons of people believe the ideas he stole were indeed his. And the estate backed that falsehood until they were forced to acknowledge it after losing legally (3) The claim that Bruce Lee or his ideas produced anything is hotly debatable. Bruce himself never produced many students. HIs ideas produced a generation (or two) of "Jeet Kune Do people" who have now split into widely divergent camps.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Bruce Lee wanted to provide for his family and he tried to achieve that through acting. It was not the stardom nor celebrity that he was seeking.

mickey

[boxerbilly]

Greetings,

Bruce Lee wanted to provide for his family and he tried to achieve that through acting. It was not the stardom nor celebrity that he was seeking.

mickey

Actually, I believe he very much wanted stardom and celebrity. He did say, he was going to be bigger than McQueen. That caused a falling out with those 2. Yet, McQueen still pallbeared for his friend/instructor.

[Jimbo]

It's not really 'out of the blue' that BL wanted to be an actor. His father was an actor in Cantonese opera and in movies. So BL was exposed to the performing arts long before he began training martial arts. Lots of actors' kids want to become actors themselves.

I do believe BL wanted to be a big star. He had written out a list of goals, one of which said he would be a superstar (or millionaire?) by 1980.

[MightyB]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10376071_1609664249247685_425679009967978953_n.jpg ?oh=c2dc46ca6bb1df69f4ee7f746b157fad&oe=554A2C3A&__gda__=1434874192_cc2d8f4a0f1bfad59e51da6322d1a51 5

[mickey]

Greetings,

There is no evidence that Bruce Lee pursued acting in America before Ed Parker made the connections for him, resulting in a screen test and his being cast in the Green Hornet. McQueen and Coburn were his students; so, there was a competitive aspect, I agree. His desire to provide well for his family was a strong one-- to the point where he had considered opening a chain of martial arts schools. And this was before he went back to Hong Kong. Steve McQueen was a top box office draw at the time. For Bruce Lee to focus on outdoing Steve McQueen was, in my opinion, healthy goal setting.

In "providing well" for his family, it may be that Bruce wanted his family to live with some comfort, like his parents did/tried to do for him.


mickey

[bawang]

lol "prividing for family"

his dad was rich as fuk and his mom was a 1/2 german trophy wife.

bruce lee was a rich boy who bragged publicly about beating up a chinatown restaurant waiter who prolly ate one meal a day

[MysticNinjaJay]

I remember a long time ago reading an account where Bruce told someone there was no way he would beat Muhammad Ali in a fight. I never met BL, but it seems a lot of the "Bruce Lee the Unbeatable Fighter" image is by people who either profited off of his name, or those who confuse his onscreen exploits with real life. The latter would be equivalent to proclaiming Clint Eastwood as "The Greatest Gunfighter of All Time". I really doubt that BL himself ever claimed to be the best fighter.

A lot of the philosophy credited to BL was also taken from Japanese sources, such as Miyamoto Musashi, Takuan Soho, and others.

I liked BL and still do. There's the image his worshippers carry; there's the image his biggest critics carry; and then there's simply who BL was and what he accomplished, like him or not.

I think this claim comes from the following passage from a book:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/0/7604/1967655-scan0049.jpg

It's a second hand source so we don't know if Bruce Lee ever said this but I always interpreted this as Bruce Lee saying he would lose to Muhammad Ali in a Boxing match (hence "little Chinese hand").

This quote has been attributed to Bruce Lee:

“To tell the truth, I could beat anybody in the world.”

Now I very much doubt Bruce Lee could beat anyone in his time or in the present but I believe, as he was a serious Martial Artist that he was also a competent fighter. This thread however is about Bruce Lee vs. Gary Elms. Where is the evidence for Elms? That's what I want to know.

[lkfmdc]

he was a serious Martial Artist that he was also a competent fighter



It's the 21st century, by now you should really know that being a "martial artist" has NOTHING to do with being a competent fighter

[MysticNinjaJay]

It's the 21st century, by now you should really know that being a "martial artist" has NOTHING to do with being a competent fighter

Martial Artists train to fight. Some train more effectively than others. So the question is, did Bruce Lee train in effective fighting techniques? After reading Tao of Jeet Kune Do I would say that Bruce Lee was on the right path to being a competent fighter. Some things he got right, some things he got wrong. He was still developing at the time of his death.

[David Jamieson]

Martial Artists train to fight. Some train more effectively than others. So the question is, did Bruce Lee train in effective fighting techniques? After reading Tao of Jeet Kune Do I would say that Bruce Lee was on the right path to being a competent fighter. Some things he got right, some things he got wrong. He was still developing at the time of his death.

Bruce Lee trained some martial arts. But was more interested in movies. With the popularity of action martial arts films, that is where Bruce Lee made himself.

Nobody will give you credit for things you didn't do. Whether or not he was on track is irrelevant. The truth is that BL was never a carded fighter and had no interest in pursuing a fight career. He was clearly into making movies and becoming a super star and martial arts was his vehicle towards that. That was his thing.

[boxerbilly]

I don' t think he cared to compete and with his weight and rules, yeah he would probably lose on that alone never mind if he could or could not do what some say he could. Weight matters.

But you just can't dismiss by saying he was not as good as people think based on what we have seen which really is very little and again, if we judge by him film movement, I stand my ground that NO ONE has achieved what he had on film. NO ONE. Ive seen faster. Ive seen more gymnastic. I've seen all the varied styles and much is very good but they all lack his total package at least captured in that format. And guys that are respect and some as fighters that have stated Bruce was every bit as good as they say he was.

Anyway, JUDO. There was a time it was not under one umbrella. There are still small schools whose linage avoided joining yet they still teach good judo. So, because there was no standardization far enough back, how do we know any of them were any good? There students? Bruce had some rather good guys and they taught some rather good guys. Most never entered into competition. Some just can't do that. Having boxed, Ive seen plenty show up, get hit and leave never to be seen again. Yet, these same guys have no issues fighting in say a bar or whatever. Some can take the gloves and some cant. Id rather get hit with a glove, less chance I get cut and I cut east enough. Less chance I loose teeth and ive had teeth punched out gloveless.
Less chance I hurt my hands and I have hurt my thumbs barefisted. Always hurt my thumbs. Every time I had to throw more than one punch. Never happened gloved.

There was a few guys I knew that would have beat me dead out of the ring that just could not deal with gloves and rules. Yet, they never fought in any competitions.

Anyway, he is what he is. The most known actor and martial artist ever.

[boxerbilly]

I don' t think he cared to compete and with his weight and rules, yeah he would probably lose on that alone never mind if he could or could not do what some say he could. Weight matters.

But you just can't dismiss by saying he was not as good as people think based on what we have seen which really is very little and again, if we judge by him film movement, I stand my ground that NO ONE has achieved what he had on film. NO ONE. Ive seen faster. Ive seen more gymnastic. I've seen all the varied styles and much is very good but they all lack his total package at least captured in that format. And guys that are respected and some as fighters, that have stated Bruce was every bit as good as they say he was.

Anyway, JUDO. There was a time it was not under one umbrella. There are still small schools whose linage avoided joining yet they still teach good judo. So, because there was no standardization far enough back, how do we know any of them were any good? Thier students? Bruce had some rather good guys and they taught some rather good guys. Most never entered into competition. Some just can't do that. Having boxed, Ive seen plenty show up, get hit and leave never to be seen again. Yet, these same guys have no issues fighting in say a bar or whatever. Some can take the gloves and some cant. Id rather get hit with a glove, less chance I get cut and I cut east enough. Less chance I loose teeth and ive had teeth punched out gloveless.
Less chance I hurt my hands and I have hurt my thumbs barefisted. Always hurt my thumbs. Every time I had to throw more than one punch. Never happened gloved.

There was a few guys I knew that would have beat me dead out of the ring that just could not deal with gloves and rules. Yet, they never fought in any competitions.

Anyway, he is what he is. The most known actor and martial artist ever.

[boxerbilly]

And think about this. We are posting on a forum that is primarily Traditional Kung Fu. We have no problems believing the legends that abound with this stuff, often sight on seen. Or Master whoever was the most feared kung fu guy in his time only to to find it was all forms stuff. We've all seen that old footage of those 2 Masters that got in the ring to fight and they flat out SUCKED! Yet, here we have on film a guy doing things better than we have yet to see someone else obtain in many ways.

He never fought anyone , he sucked! LOL.

Most fighters after they hang it up. SUCK. They die broke, injured some brain damaged and few remember them unless they were champs. Guess what. 99.9 percent never become champs. They are long forgotten other than maybe being a local hero or terror. And we could say if your local boy never makes to the top, HE SUCKS! Which probably is not true.

One thing I know is BL did not suck. Ive seen it on film. If he lived he would not have died broke. He would have more than likely become the richest actor alive during the 70's and maybe into the 80's. Yet if I put him in the ring with even a third rate heavy weight and said only boxing rules, he is dead! So I guess he sucks then? If I put any of you in that ring, I bet you'll suck too.

Me, Im smart enough to not get in there with a guy that big even if I believe I am the better boxer. I'd be killed. I SUCK!

[David Jamieson]

And think about this. We are posting on a forum that is primarily Traditional Kung Fu. We have no problems believing the legends that abound with this stuff, often sight on seen. Or Master whoever was the most feared kung fu guy in his time only to to find it was all forms stuff. We've all seen that old footage of those 2 Masters that got in the ring to fight and they flat out SUCKED! Yet, here we have on film a guy doing things better than we have yet to see someone else obtain in many ways.

He never fought anyone , he sucked! LOL.

Most fighters after they hang it up. SUCK. They die broke, injured some brain damaged and few remember them unless they were champs. Guess what. 99.9 percent never become champs. They are long forgotten other than maybe being a local hero or terror. And we could say if your local boy never makes to the top, HE SUCKS! Which probably is not true.

One thing I know is BL did not suck. Ive seen it on film. If he lived he would not have died broke. He would have more than likely become the richest actor alive during the 70's and maybe into the 80's. Yet if I put him in the ring with even a third rate heavy weight and said only boxing rules, he is dead! So I guess he sucks then? If I put any of you in that ring, I bet you'll suck too.

Me, Im smart enough to not get in there with a guy that big even if I believe I am the better boxer. I'd be killed. I SUCK!

Well, Bruce was certainly not an advocate of traditional martial arts. Most of us don't believe legends and such and regard them as allegory or metaphor to a larger lesson to be had, as they usually are that. Fighters come and go. We've all seen the kung fu and tai chi guy get tangled in the face game, yes. repeatedly thanks to some here. lol

The fact stands that Bruce didn't compete on an even amateur level in any type of full contact fighting.

Many fighters don't suck at all after hanging it up, but to everything there is a season. And most fighters have something to hang up when they are done. Movies are not real life and scenes are repeated over and over and over again. Camera angles are used and trust me, at no time was anyone on a martial arts movie set ever in danger of getting knocked out or into an actual fight while working on a film.

Making it to the top is not relevant to one being a fighter. One is that, or is not that. Pretty cut and dried. Bruce did make cool films with kung fu in them. That, he was indeed good at. I really enjoyed the Big Boss (Fists of Fury) and Enter the Dragon. Really good films in the MA genre and they still stand up today for people interested in the genre.

Bruce was an actor who used martial arts as part of his repertoire. Let him have that and there isn't any need to inflate his career into something it wasn't.

[pazman]

Anyway, JUDO. There was a time it was not under one umbrella. There are still small schools whose linage avoided joining yet they still teach good judo.

Care to back that up with sources?

[MysticNinjaJay]

Bruce Lee trained some martial arts. But was more interested in movies. With the popularity of action martial arts films, that is where Bruce Lee made himself.

Nobody will give you credit for things you didn't do. Whether or not he was on track is irrelevant. The truth is that BL was never a carded fighter and had no interest in pursuing a fight career. He was clearly into making movies and becoming a super star and martial arts was his vehicle towards that. That was his thing.

He was serious about Martial Arts before he got involved in major films. Remember that he was a Martial Arts instructor with only small time childhood acting experience before he got discovered. Certainly he doesn't deserve credit for things he didn't do like professional fighting but I think he had the tools to be a competent fighter even if he didn't prove it.


Well, Bruce was certainly not an advocate of traditional martial arts. Most of us don't believe legends and such and regard them as allegory or metaphor to a larger lesson to be had, as they usually are that. Fighters come and go. We've all seen the kung fu and tai chi guy get tangled in the face game, yes. repeatedly thanks to some here. lol

The fact stands that Bruce didn't compete on an even amateur level in any type of full contact fighting.

Many fighters don't suck at all after hanging it up, but to everything there is a season. And most fighters have something to hang up when they are done. Movies are not real life and scenes are repeated over and over and over again. Camera angles are used and trust me, at no time was anyone on a martial arts movie set ever in danger of getting knocked out or into an actual fight while working on a film.

Making it to the top is not relevant to one being a fighter. One is that, or is not that. Pretty cut and dried. Bruce did make cool films with kung fu in them. That, he was indeed good at. I really enjoyed the Big Boss (Fists of Fury) and Enter the Dragon. Really good films in the MA genre and they still stand up today for people interested in the genre.

Bruce was an actor who used martial arts as part of his repertoire. Let him have that and there isn't any need to inflate his career into something it wasn't.

Well don't forget the Boxing tournament in Hong Kong which is the real topic of the thread (evidence for Gary Elms) not Bruce Lee's overall fighting ability. Let's try to stay on topic please.

[David Jamieson]

He was serious about Martial Arts before he got involved in major films. Remember that he was a Martial Arts instructor with only small time childhood acting experience before he got discovered. Certainly he doesn't deserve credit for things he didn't do like professional fighting but I think he had the tools to be a competent fighter even if he didn't prove it.



Well don't forget the Boxing tournament in Hong Kong which is the real topic of the thread (evidence for Gary Elms) not Bruce Lee's overall fighting ability. Let's try to stay on topic please.

He was more serious about competition dancing actually and was a top notch cha-cha dancer in the USA and Hong Kong. He did take up Wing Chun under Ip Mans senior student and did get some lessons with Ip man himself but never did complete or become senior in that style. He got really serious about martial arts when he deduced the vacuum of martial arts films and got into it in the US.

the boxing tournament is absolutely debatable. He was decidedly not a trained boxer.

Why not just be happy with what he left us instead of trying to elevate and elevate to the point of absurdity? He did some great stuff. Enjoy that! It was more than enough from one guy. :)

[MightyB]

Why not just be happy with what he left us instead of trying to elevate and elevate to the point of absurdity? He did some great stuff. Enjoy that! It was more than enough from one guy. :)

You say that, yet you peppered your comment with suppositions.

[Jimbo]

Camera angles are used and trust me, at no time was anyone on a martial arts movie set ever in danger of getting knocked out or into an actual fight while working on a film.

Actually, yes and no.

Yes, movie fighting and real fighting (whether on the street or in competition) are entirely different animals. However, screen fighting does carry inherent risks and dangers...ask Jackie Chan, Sammo Hung, etc., and anyone who's worked with them, especially during the 1980s, when hard contact was a normal part of the choreography. Mark Houghton, Cynthia Rothrock, Yukari Ohshima, Conan Lee, and countless others who worked in HK films could attest to that. Benny Urquidez stated that while working on his first film, Force:Five, a third-rate American MA movie, he felt it was far more dangerous (to himself) than his actual fights were, due to the nature of filming as opposed to spontaneously reacting during a match.

Of course, during BL's era, screen fights relied mainly on camera angles than actual contact.

Sorry OP for going further OT.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I agree with Jimbo in that there was and is always a danger; and, maybe even more so today because the actors do not have the martial foundation. The danger may have been such as to give rise to what I call the "signature choreography" associated with certain actors where they practically do the same thing in every movie--the difference being the camera angles, sets, and props.

Back on topic: It seems that there will be people fascinated with Bruce Lee and those who try to reduce him to rubble. MysticNinjaJay is on his own odyssey, one that many of us have taken in our own lives, Bruce Lee or otherwise. I wish him the best.


mickey

[MysticNinjaJay]

He was more serious about competition dancing actually and was a top notch cha-cha dancer in the USA and Hong Kong. He did take up Wing Chun under Ip Mans senior student and did get some lessons with Ip man himself but never did complete or become senior in that style. He got really serious about martial arts when he deduced the vacuum of martial arts films and got into it in the US.

He did win a Cha-Cha dance competition in Hong Kong but also the Boxing tournament. It's not clear whether he liked dancing or Martial Arts more. I think he liked both and used some of his dancing skills to enhance fight choreography when he got in to movies. But remember that when Bruce Lee arrived in America he didn't come here to be a movie star. He studied philosophy in college and made money teaching his own brand of Kung Fu. He got discovered as an actor after doing demonstrations at Martial Arts seminars. By the time he auditioned for the Green Hornet Bruce Lee was a very serious Martial Artist. That was the focus of his life up to that point then came the movies in China and breaking in to Hollywood before his untimely death.


the boxing tournament is absolutely debatable. He was decidedly not a trained boxer.

I don't know what there is to debate. He trained for the tournament and won. He wasn't a professional Boxer but he did compete in competition.


Why not just be happy with what he left us instead of trying to elevate and elevate to the point of absurdity? He did some great stuff. Enjoy that! It was more than enough from one guy. :)

I'm not trying to elevate him to anything. I'm trying to discover more about the real Bruce Lee and this Gary Elms situation is part of the story.

[David Jamieson]

I'm trying to discover more about the real Bruce Lee and this Gary Elms situation is part of the story.

Hate to go here, but: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=67615&page=3

[Jimbo]

I remember sometime in the early '80s seeing a photo in a magazine that (purportedly) showed BL fighting in a HK boxing tournament in the late '50s. I don't know who the opponent was, or even if the opponent was Chinese or white. As I recall, in the photo, "BL" was slightly hunched, back against the ropes, and looked to be "wailing away" at his surging opponent. "BL's" face was down and slightly turned towards the camera, one eye squeezed shut, face grimacing. At the time, I couldn't honestly say whether it was BL in the photo or not, though it could have been.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Hate to go here, but: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=67615&page=3

I've read that thread before. I'm trying to do some what of the same thing here with the search for Gary Elms.


I remember sometime in the early '80s seeing a photo in a magazine that (purportedly) showed BL fighting in a HK boxing tournament in the late '50s. I don't know who the opponent was, or even if the opponent was Chinese or white. As I recall, in the photo, "BL" was slightly hunched, back against the ropes, and looked to be "wailing away" at his surging opponent. "BL's" face was down and slightly turned towards the camera, one eye squeezed shut, face grimacing. At the time, I couldn't honestly say whether it was BL in the photo or not, though it could have been.

This may be the photo you are talking about:

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae344/JKDMA/BruceLeeBoxingMarch291958.jpg

That doesn't look like Bruce Lee to me but it's supposed to be from that tournament.

[Jimbo]

I've read that thread before. I'm trying to do some what of the same thing here with the search for Gary Elms.



This may be the photo you are talking about:

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae344/JKDMA/BruceLeeBoxingMarch291958.jpg

That doesn't look like Bruce Lee to me but it's supposed to be from that tournament.

Yeah, that looks like the photo. A tiny bit different from how I remembered, but that's it. And no, it doesn't look like BL.

[David Jamieson]

Yeah, that looks like the photo. A tiny bit different from how I remembered, but that's it. And no, it doesn't look like BL.

Maybe it's that Bruce Li guy.
Or Bruce Lei?

[boxerbilly]

Care to back that up with sources?

Not really buddy. I don't care to search for all the crap I read over the years. But, yes there are schools that teach Judo and are not affiliated with any popular sanctioning organization. I think I read prior to in the 1940's anyway that there was no agreed upon ranking system in the US. Not all those clubs joined up. I think maybe because judo and jujitsu were so closey intertwined. Perhaps some did not want to go along with being told how to do things and how to judge rank.

Remember when Kano started his school he wanted all the jujitsu's under one roof. Sport Judo as we know it was but a small faction of that school. And in America is was probably more jujitsu based than sportive at first. After WW2 that changed. Some guys here did not want to go along with it I guess. Probably the same happened in Japan and elsewhere.

By the way, feel free to correct me if I am ever wrong. I wont take offence. I don't mind learning or being corrected. Thanks.

[Fa Xing]

He did take up Wing Chun under Ip Mans senior student and did get some lessons with Ip man himself but never did complete or become senior in that style. He got really serious about martial arts when he deduced the vacuum of martial arts films and got into it in the US.

I see this non-sequiter argument all the time, and wonder what it has to do with how good of a martial artist he really was. In any case, he was far more a martial artist than he was an actor, the acting gig came up in the mid to late 1960s by chance, he clearly struggled in Hollywood at the time, and then seeing his chance to spread his "message" further, he went back over seas where he discovered that he already becoming famous there. The man had a family to support, and like most of us, he went where the money is. That still changes little from how much he trained, sparring with students on weekly basis, weight training, running, training his stuff on his own for a couple hours a day.

[boxerbilly]

He studied Red Junk Wing Chun in the US for about 6 years time. Same guy that taught James Keating . He was Bruce's dads friend. Bruce picked him up from the docks with Jesse Glover. According to Jesse Glovers book. So he studied longer and first hand with a different style of wing chun right here. Beside, the dude went every where and learned from anyone. Ask the Willem Reeders boys about him learning from Reeders. I guess he was one of only 3 people ever to learn Reeders family style. It is also where he came up with the idea for Kung Fu tv series. But he lost that role. To Chinese!

A lot of people believe the bull**** he learned only in HK from 13-18 and not at the hands of Yip Man. It simply is not true.

Again, reference Between Wing Chun and Jeet Kune Do by Jesse Glover.

Edit. I wrote James Sass. I meant James Keating-corrected.

[Jimbo]

It is also where he came up with the idea for Kung Fu tv series. But he lost that role. To Chinese!

It's clear that Bruce Lee got the basic idea for the Kung Fu TV series from the original Zatoichi film series. BL was a fan of Japanese samurai films, and even characterized much of his fight choreography on the tempo of samurai films, replacing sword fighting with bare hands/nunchaku, etc. He also paid tribute to Zatoichi in some promo photos taken at Shaw Brothers studios, where he was dressed as a Chinese swordsman (he imitated Zatoichi by rolling his eyes up to mimic 'the blind swordsman'). And BL lost the role in Kung Fu to a Caucasian...David Carradine.

[boxerbilly]

Never heard of that connection Jimbo. Thanks.

[boxerbilly]

http://gravityflow.webs.com/fookyuengchuan.htm

http://www.blacktrianglesilat.com/features/34-articles/104-pesilat-bruce-lee