战跤 Combat Shuai Chiao

[YouKnowWho]

These 2 clips were just uploaded to the Combat Shuai Chiao face book. I would like to share here to generate some "application" discussion. All comments are welcomed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFeLRnejEYY&feature=youtu.be

[YouKnowWho]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1l7W_Sar6U&feature=youtu.be

[sanjuro_ronin]

I just have this to say:

There are two types of demo clips that can be done:
1) strictly instructional/demos aimed at practitioners of the style that are training the style.
2) Instructional/ demos for people wanting to learn the techniques of the style.

The differences are that if you are doing clips for #1, those are perfectly fine because the viewer is getting practical hands on training already.
They are not good enough for #2.

For #2 you need to go beyond that and show it being "fought", ie: a practical demo of the technique in action VS a resisting opponent.

Use the Dog Brothers "mantra" as a guide:

See it taught, see it fought.

[Dragonzbane76]

YKW most times I enjoy your topics of discussion, although on occasion I disagree with you, I still enjoy the topics you bring up as having a grappling background myself. Like ronin brought up I would like to see them in application practice. Got any vids of full on?

[SPJ]

These 2 clips were just uploaded to the Combat Shuai Chiao face book. I would like to share here to generate some "application" discussion. All comments are welcomed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFeLRnejEYY&feature=youtu.be

Like the video 1 much.

A quick review of terms and techniques.

We came a long way from the 1970s.

It used to be drawing, still pictures and 8 mm films.

For record keeping and reviewing.

We then had betamax (Japan, Taiwan) and VHS (US/Canada).

Then digital camera and VCD (China) and DVD (Taiwan, US).

Then we have youtube in 2005.

Video sharing via internet made easy.

We came a long way.

Great job for sharing the video(s) on Facebook or Youtube.

:cool:

[SPJ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1l7W_Sar6U&feature=youtu.be

Like video 2.

It showed finish moves (seize etc) in addition to the throws.

Great.

:cool:

[mickey]

Greetings,

Some of those techniques, like cracking, forehead push and, knee lock and push, can cause injury if done full on in video number one.


mickey

[YouKnowWho]

For #2 you need to go beyond that and show it being "fought", ie: a practical demo of the technique in action VS a resisting opponent.

IMO, I can make clips in 2 different ways.

1. My opponent attacks, I respond.
2. I attack, my opponent responds, I then respond to his respond.

I don't like to train the #1 situation because since my opponent moves in toward me, I don't have to move in toward him. He has done the "close distance" for me and I don't get to train my "entering strategy". If my opponent attacks first, I will use front kick or foot sweep to interrupt his attack, I then attack back. This way, I still attack first by definition.

I like to train the #2 situation. If I attack when my opponent is still "on guard", that's exactly how the 1st clip and 2nd clip look like.

[YouKnowWho]

Like ronin brought up I would like to see them in application practice. Got any vids of full on?
I assume you like to see this kind of clips, the clips that came from tournaments.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PldMM9TJPY&feature=youtu.be

[YouKnowWho]

Like ronin brought up I would like to see them in application practice. Got any vids of full on?
Or something like this? Only in tournament, you will deal with full resisted opponent.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9m3BIHOo2s&feature=youtu.be

[Pipefighter]

I just have this to say:

There are two types of demo clips that can be done:
1) strictly instructional/demos aimed at practitioners of the style that are training the style.
2) Instructional/ demos for people wanting to learn the techniques of the style.

The differences are that if you are doing clips for #1, those are perfectly fine because the viewer is getting practical hands on training already.
They are not good enough for #2.

For #2 you need to go beyond that and show it being "fought", ie: a practical demo of the technique in action VS a resisting opponent.

Use the Dog Brothers "mantra" as a guide:

See it taught, see it fought.

If you give away training videos as demo's, how will you make any $$? All the videos Dan Severn, Bruce Baumgartner, Eric Paulson, etc... make that are designed to teach instead of demo cost $$. (They get leaked onto youtube anyway :( )

Plus all your adverseries know how to do all your moves free.
***********. **********

In clip #1 i like how he shows the explosive force neccisary to effectively use forehead pushing and helmet removing. I have made the mistake of using those in a strong but not explosive way and it is not as effective. The explosive force really makes a big difference when applying. Good reminder for me in practice.
******************

As far as real full on, thats hard to catch on film. I got into a fight a few years back (actual 1 on 1, rare, i know, with onlookers even) where the other guy tried to throw me by catching my left arm, spinning and putting his left shoulder and trying to throw me. I sank and squeezed my knees into his knees and calves and drug him to the ground. So he held my wrist close to his chest and bit me on my outer forearm muscle next to my elbow. With his hands and his teeth he pulled and rolled to get on top, which i prevented. I crossfaced him across his nose and used scissor motion to break his teeth loose and to counter the roll. However, that cross face only gave him a new chance to bite me on my bicep, and keep pulling. So i did a helmet removing with my fingers in his eyes. He broke loose, i slipped off, then he came back down on my outer upeer arm between my bicep and tricep. He got a good bite that time. I tried helmet removing again, but without explosive force. It didnt work. I grabbed his nostrils finally and pulled his teeth off me again, and finally got him in a rear choke--which i did Not learn from Brazilian Jucifruits.
Back then people didn't have video phones all over.

[Dragonzbane76]

tournaments, fights, anything with full resistance. I don't mind clips of people showing techniques and how to perform, but you can see so much more from a movement done in "real" time and not orchestrated.

[sanjuro_ronin]

tournaments, fights, anything with full resistance. I don't mind clips of people showing techniques and how to perform, but you can see so much more from a movement done in "real" time and not orchestrated.

Indeed.
It doesn't even have to be a tournament, simply full on sparring.

The Dog Brothers do that, they show the technique in the instructional phase, how it is done, counters and counter-counters, things like that. THEN they show it in a full one sparring session or tournament, which ever one they may have a clip of.

Its sort of like showing how to do a lead left hook in training, then showing it in a sparring match and/ or in a clip from an actual fight in the ring.

[IronWeasel]

Or something like this? Only in tournament, you will deal with full resisted opponent.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9m3BIHOo2s&feature=youtu.be


We practice throws with full resistance outside tournaments sometimes.

For instance, I will tell my partner how I am going to throw him, so that he knows what to expect. Then I try to pull it off under those conditions, and he does whatever he can to resist.




Good video, tho. I remember that match. If you look quickly, you can see me pacing behind the ref with my newly broken hand. :p

[YouKnowWho]

We practice throws with full resistance outside tournaments sometimes. For instance, I will tell my partner how I am going to throw him, so that he knows what to expect. Then I try to pull it off under those conditions, and he does whatever he can to resist.

I have different opinion about "resisted opponent". If you tell me that you want to use "hip throw" on me, the moment that you touch me, the moment that I sit down to the ground, there is no way that you will be able to apply "hip throw" on me.

IMO, when you try to train the

- basic throws, your opponent should "not" resist you.
- combo throws, your opponent should resist "as hard as he can".

For example, if your opponent resists against your "hip throw", you should

- borrow his force,
- reverse your throwing direction, and
- apply "inner hook" to throw him backward.

Your opponent's resistance can help you to train how to use your "hip throw" to set up your "inner hook" combo. His resistance cannot help you to train your "hip throw". The reason is simple. If he resists and you still want to use your "hip throw" on him, that's "force against force" which is against the basic TCMA principle - "borrow force".

borrow force is A + B > A
force against force is A - B < A


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6au-MwO65Ng&feature=youtu.be

[YouKnowWho]

I have always believed that if you can beat up all the

- elementary school kids, then
- junior high school kids, then
- senior high school kids,

you may have developed some dependable skill. You have to start from easy first and then go to hard later.

When you train in the basic level, your opponent has to give you all the opportunity that you need. For example, if you tell your opponent that you want to train "foot sweep", your opponent will put weight on his leading leg all the time, allow you to sweep him down over and over. After you have swept your opponent down 10,000 times, you have developed your speed, power, technique, and confidence. Now your opponent may not always put weight on his leading leg, but you can catch that right moment, or you can use other set up to force him to put weight on his leading leg. Now you have passed your "basic level training", and move into your "intermediate level training".

When your opponent "intentionally" put weight on his leading leg and allow you to use your "foot sweep" to sweep him down, that's not "resistance opponent" by most of your guys definition. But that training "process" is very important in Chinese wrestling. It helps you to build your confidence. It may not be your real confidence in the beginning, but it will become your real confidence if you stay in this art long enough.

[Pipefighter]

We practice throws with full resistance outside tournaments sometimes.

For instance, I will tell my partner how I am going to throw him, so that he knows what to expect. Then I try to pull it off under those conditions, and he does whatever he can to resist.




Good video, tho. I remember that match. If you look quickly, you can see me pacing behind the ref with my newly broken hand. :p

Your hand was broken that weekend? Mine was too.:o.

When i want to develop a move, like YKW said, I'll work with my training partner to develop my coordination against no resistance, then get him to start using muscle against me, then more footwork and evasion. But if he is giving me full resistance, it is only so i can work on my follow up move. Then i am working on a new move. Same process all over again.

After a few moves are good and fast, then i get my training partner to try and stall and only counter me, so i have to create an opening when he is completely defensive. Then i get my partner to attack aggressively where i am looking to execute my moves in that setting. And then of course spar a lot. Then i feel my move is ready for a tournament. But often it is hard to have a steady training partner...