7 Star vs Plum Blossom Mantis- similarities and differences?

[Fenghuang]

Hi,

I have the opportunity to study both Seven Star and Plum Blossom mantis from two different teachers in my area.

Could someone with experience and/or knowledge in both systems highlight some of the similarities and differences?

I'm especially interested in how much legwork and twisting/jumping each does, as I have a bum knee and would need to modify those components considerably.

Thanks in advance :)

[mooyingmantis]

Hi,

I have the opportunity to study both Seven Star and Plum Blossom mantis from two different teachers in my area.

Could someone with experience and/or knowledge in both systems highlight some of the similarities and differences?

I'm especially interested in how much legwork and twisting/jumping each does, as I have a bum knee and would need to modify those components considerably.

Thanks in advance :)

I have trained with two Seven Star shifu and two Taiji Meihua shifu. I believe both families have very effective martial arts techniques. I feel very privileged to have studied in both families of tanglangquan.

IN GENERAL:

Hong Kong Seven Star uses higher stances, than the Plum Flower families. Yet it also uses more leaping kicks in the forms, than the Plum Flower families. As an old **** with bad knees and arthritis in my ankles, I find the Plum Flower stances much harder to endure. Yet I prefer the Plum Flower forms over the Hong Kong Seven Star forms.

Plum Flower families emphasize more waist movement, than Hong Kong Seven Star. Some accuse Hong Kong Seven Star as being "all arms". Though I don't necessarily agree with that, I do see how they can get that impression.

Who are the instructors in your area?

[Fenghuang]

I have trained with two Seven Star shifu and two Taiji Meihua shifu. I believe both families have very effective martial arts techniques. I feel very privileged to have studied in both families of tanglangquan.

IN GENERAL:

Hong Kong Seven Star uses higher stances, than the Plum Flower families. Yet it also uses more leaping kicks in the forms, than the Plum Flower families. As an old **** with bad knees and arthritis in my ankles, I find the Plum Flower stances much harder to endure. Yet I prefer the Plum Flower forms over the Hong Kong Seven Star forms.

Plum Flower families emphasize more waist movement, than Hong Kong Seven Star. Some accuse Hong Kong Seven Star as being "all arms". Though I don't necessarily agree with that, I do see how they can get that impression.

Who are the instructors in your area?

Dear Moonyingmantis,

Thank you for the informative reply. I have sent you a private message regarding your question.

Best,
Fenghuang

[mooyingmantis]

I thought it might be interesting to compare and contrast some commonly practiced techniques found in both the Hong Kong Seven Star and Mainland Plum Flower Mantis families.

Please note that I am speaking in generalities and not hard, fast rules.

1. The popular principle 勾 搂 采 - hook, hold and pluck in Seven Star is known as 拉 封 打 - pull, seal & strike in Plum Flower.

2. The waist chop in Seven Star is often performed from the Seven Star step, while it is often performed from a Small Mountain Climbing stance in Plum Flower forms

3. In both lines, 崩 捶 - a crashing strike is often preceded by a 圈 捶 - circle/hook strike.

4. In both lines, 腰 斬 - the waist chop is often preceded by 崩 捶 - a crashing strike.

5. In both lines, 崩 捶 - a crashing strike often precedes 鴛 鴦 腳 - a mandarin duck kick/lead roundhouse kick with retreat.

Just a few examples. :)

[xiao yao]

Seven Star Mantis has a strong Long Fist influence.... even more so with the lineages which came through Hong Kong. The movements tend to be longer and more linear.

Meihua (and Taiji) Mantis uses more circular movements, tending to be closer range and using elbows and shoulders slightly more.

The similarities are greater than the differences, its mostly just in which forms are practiced, and the height of stances as Richard mentioned, as well as the focus on larger or smaller frame.

Richard.... about your point number 2: I have found it to be the other way round in Yantai/Qingdao... Taiji/meihua uses the hooked foot for waist chop more, whereas Seven Star uses the mountain climbing step.

[YouKnowWho]

highlight some of the similarities and differences?
My understand is the

- 7 star mantis likes to use the 7 star stance. It will give you better "leg control".
- Meihua mantis likes to use the monkey stance. It will give you more "mobility".


Taiji/meihua uses the hooked foot for waist chop more, whereas Seven Star uses the mountain climbing step.
Since the 7 star stance has better leg control, I think the 7 star mantis will use hooked foot more than the Meihua mantis. As far as I know, both styles all use the following leg skills in "waist chop".

- mountain climbing stance,
- 7 star stance (mantis call this "little knock"),
- foot sweep.

[-N-]

2. The waist chop in Seven Star is often performed from the Seven Star step, while it is often performed from a Small Mountain Climbing stance in Plum Flower forms



Richard.... about your point number 2: I have found it to be the other way round in Yantai/Qingdao... Taiji/meihua uses the hooked foot for waist chop more, whereas Seven Star uses the mountain climbing step.


As far as I know, both styles all use the following leg skills in "waist chop".

- mountain climbing stance,
- 7 star stance (mantis call this "little knock"),
- foot sweep.

That is quite a range of observations.

I can speak only from the Northern Mantis perspective of WHF line.

7 star step, mountain climbing step, and small mountain climbing step(link step or circle entering step) are all used with waist chop.

You can look at the three steps as a continuum going from 7 star, to mountain climbing, to small mountain climbing.

7 star emphasizes the waist chop throw earlier in the engagement of the footwork.

Mountain climbing has greater depth of control and coordination with your own body's center of mass for the throw.

Small mountain climbing coordinates spiraling sinking force and added momentum to the throw from mountain climbing step.

WHF Mantis is considered a combination of 7 Star, Plum Blossum, and Spotless Mantis.

[-N-]

- 7 star mantis likes to use the 7 star stance. It will give you better "leg control".

I don't know if the leg control is better, but it is earlier when starting at range. And allows fast transition for followup movement/attack with the rear leg.

[mooyingmantis]

Small mountain climbing coordinates spiraling sinking force and added momentum to the throw from mountain climbing step.

Great description!

[YouKnowWho]

I don't know if the leg control is better, but it is earlier when starting at range. And allows fast transition for followup movement/attack with the rear leg.

This is the "leg control" by using 7 star stance that I'm talking about.

9124

Here is the 3 waist chops by using the

- bow-arrow stance,
- 7 star stance, and
- foot sweep,

in the 7 star mantis.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2m6vv7GTdC8&feature=youtu.be

[YouKnowWho]

Small mountain climbing coordinates spiraling sinking force and added momentum to the throw from mountain climbing step.

Is the "small mountain climbing" similar to the Shuai-Chiao "挤桩 - squeeze"?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb8IhxLDpXE&feature=youtu.be

[B.Tunks]

Is the "small mountain climbing" similar to the Shuai-Chiao "挤桩 - squeeze"?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb8IhxLDpXE&feature=youtu.be

Close, but without lifting the heel.

BT

[xiao yao]

The technique Waist Chop (yao zhan) is just one variation of the technique "Mantis Hands, Jade Ring Step" (tanglang shou, yuhuan bu), which is an important basic technique, and one of the 8 stances.

In Waist Chop you grab the opponents left wrist with your left hand (or grab their face if no wrist is grabable), pull it to the left, placing the left hook foot behind the opponents ankle (or can sweep up), and then use the right hand to chop/push at their right ribs.

The variation which uses Small Mountain Climbing Step (xiao deng shan bu) is called Yuhuan Shou (jade ring hands) or Mopan Shou (grind/coil hands). In this technique you step in more aggressively, making contact shin to shin, grab the opponents neck/face and pull it to the left, however you make contact along the whole of your arm to the shoulder, using Kao power to throw the opponent. Yuhuan Shou and Mo Pan Shou only differ in that the first one you twist to 45*, the second to 90*, having a different effect on how the opponent falls.

At least this is how it is in Taiji Mantis.... I cant speak for others.....

[YouKnowWho]

Most of the mantis "waist chop" is to use

- leading leg control,
- back arm pull.

Sometime it's easier to use

- back leg control,
- leading arm pull.

The reason is simple. You will have better chance to pull your opponent's leading arm than to pull his back arm. The trade off is you have to extend your control leg a bit further to reach to his back leg.

Also the hand "chop" to the waist can be use on the elbow joint pull. By using 2 arms to pull 1 arm is always better than to use 1 arm to pull 1 arm. Your intention is to throw your opponent and not to kill him with your chop on his waist.

[mooyingmantis]

The variation which uses Small Mountain Climbing Step.... In this technique you step in more aggressively, making contact shin to shin...At least this is how it is in Taiji Mantis.... I cant speak for others.....

In our school, rather than making contact shin to shin, we step in deeper. My left hip contacts the enemy's right hip and I chop the enemy's waist with my right palm to throw him over my left thigh. Thus, the technique is not a trip, but rather a throw. The enemy falls from a greater height which increases his chances of being hurt more seriously.

Here is my student Dominic Marazita demonstrating the waist chop in a form:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCHX5V-EzRY&list=UUYTM17-eMzJqtC77oisOVwQ

[PalmStriker]

:) Like this form stance, reminds me of long fist extension. Using one leg as a counterweight, I can see you would maximize your reach. Great balance: http://www.canadashaolintemple.com/images/HomePic1.jpg

[mooyingmantis]

:) Like this form stance, reminds me of long fist extension. Using one leg as a counterweight, I can see you would maximize your reach. Great balance: http://www.canadashaolintemple.com/images/HomePic1.jpg

I have never seen this in any traditional family of mantis, only the modern Wushu version of mantis.

[xiao yao]

We have it in the last part of Ba Zhou, but the hands are different

[PalmStriker]

I have never seen this in any traditional family of mantis, only the modern Wushu version of mantis.:) Style reference: http://www.canadashaolintemple.com/master-shi-guo-song

[xiao yao]

The Mantis they do at Shaolin Temple is not traditional Mantis. It's just a Wushu form designed to imitate an insect.

[B.Tunks]

Shi Dejun has real Qixing Tanglang at least. Learned from my Shiye Li Zhanyuan in the 80's. But yes, most of the Tanglang there is a new creation.

BT