一手化五手 - 1 strike followed by 4 strikes

[YouKnowWho]

Do you like this kind of training? Your thought?

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDAzMDg3MjIw.html?from=y1.2-1-98.4.2-1.1-1-2-1

[Subitai]

Do you like this kind of training? Your thought?


I do allot of this type of bridging both with Hung Gar and albeit a little different of course in push hands.

I don't put numbers or count the beats of time or anything like that. That's too structured...it should be a natural flow off however the student reacts.

My only problem is that the teacher or guy on the left is doing all the grabbing and dominating. The student however is only responding... which in the beginning is ok.

But later, it's not real enough unless the student is taught to counter, grab as well and fight back. Then the sifu will be challenged again and keep his skill level up.

I would say most of what he's doing is already built into CMA...in a nutshell. Any decent Chunner could keep up with that guy no problem...except for the ones that complain all the time about being grabbed.

[-N-]

Do you like this kind of training? Your thought?

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDAzMDg3MjIw.html?from=y1.2-1-98.4.2-1.1-1-2-1

I'm surprised that the Chinese title says one technique(hand) leads to (becomes) five techniques. But the english says four strikes followed by one, which is very different.

In Mantis we say 一手化五手 to mean that there are many possible followup techniques/strikes. From any followup, there are multiple other followups. The point being that combinations must flow freely and changeably.

Brendan Lai also explained it in terms of counterattacks. For every attack, there are five counters. For every counter, there are five others.

This is meant figuratively, again with the point being that with this kind of geometric progression, your attack combinations must be flexible, free, continuous, unpredictable, etc.

The video didn't actually show the partner training exercises. Just one side only. So you didn't get to see the relaxed flexible attacks and counterattacks.

And with Mantis, it's not about neverending combos. It's about blitz with a combo attack that's adaptable to any response, so you can close in for your finishing move.

[-N-]

I don't put numbers or count the beats of time or anything like that. That's too structured...it should be a natural flow off however the student reacts.

Yes, that is the real meaning behind 一手化五手.


Any decent Chunner could keep up with that guy no problem...except for the ones that complain all the time about being grabbed.

He's not going particularly fast, relaxed/explosively, or to target. The motions are big too. In usage, it can look very different.

Also, the grabs don't need to be that rigid.

[SPJ]

Do you like this kind of training? Your thought?

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDAzMDg3MjIw.html?from=y1.2-1-98.4.2-1.1-1-2-1

1. gou lou cai gua

zhan nian

are all practiced in the 5 hand/fist sets.

2. One same hand method repeated 5 times with the left and right hand. (One hand transforms into 5 hands)

3. The four cover all the basics. Good drilling of the basic 4 variant hand/fists.

Jin shou (vertical advance hand) and Cuo Chui (vertical fist) are the same.

4. I like mo pan shou (horizontal circling hand)

and gun shou (vertical circling hand).

left, right, left, right and left or vise versa

you practice five moves in a cluster.

5. You may keep going until the opponent is defeated.

Tiao shou (upward hand) was used by the student.

Thanks for posting.

[-N-]

1. gou lou cai gua

zhan nian

are all practiced in the 5 hand/fist sets.

2. One same hand method repeated 5 times with the left and right hand. (One hand transforms into 5 hands)


Same move 5 times is not much 化 going on.




you practice five moves in a cluster.

5. You may keep going until the opponent is defeated.


Might think about how long to keep going.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijUQqVg2iTw#t=89

[YouKnowWho]

Might think about how long to keep going.

The moment that you can control both of your opponent's arms, the moment that hand combo will stop. The octopus has only "1 single skill" and that's to wrap it's opponent's body ASAP. I used to love the fast hand combo. Lately I like the "octopus" strategy more. It's simpler.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Never been a huge fan of these type of training because the contact tend to dictate scenarios that are NOT addressed in this training.
It leads to clinch work for example.
Also this type tends to not use footwork in a PRACTICAL manner and foot work is crucial when stringing together strikes.

[-N-]

The moment that you can control both of your opponent's arms, the moment that hand combo will stop. The octopus has only "1 single skill" and that's to wrap it's opponent's body ASAP. I used to love the fast hand combo. Lately I like the "octopus" strategy more. It's simpler.

If two Shuai Chiao guys fight, doesn't one guy try to counter if the other guy tries to grab/wrap?

When you do a takedown, do you ever switch your attack if the other person tries to counter?

Do you ever do a setup so you can followup with a different takedown?

All of those are 一手化五手.

[-N-]

Also this type tends to not use footwork in a PRACTICAL manner and foot work is crucial when stringing together strikes.

The drills do have footwork, but this wasn't shown in the video.

Even boxers have 一手化五手(and better than many kf people even).

How many different combos can you set up leading off with a jab?

[YouKnowWho]

If two Shuai Chiao guys fight, doesn't one guy try to counter if the other guy tries to grab/wrap?

When you do a takedown, do you ever switch your attack if the other person tries to counter?

Do you ever do a setup so you can followup with a different takedown?

All of those are 一手化五手.
I'm talking about a grappler fights against a striker, and not 2 grapplers fight against each other. The "octopus" strategy won't give you any advantage if your opponent is also a good grappler.

IMO, you should try to eliminate your opponent's both

- "arm mobility", and
- "leg mobility",

as much as possible. With that goal in mind, your training and testing will be different.

I always like the following test.

- A uses punches. B uses arm wrap.
- If B can wrap A's 1st punch, or A's 2nd punch, B wins that round. Otherwise A wins that round.
- In order to prevent A from throwing 3 punches outside of the punching range. A has to move in toward B, and B has to move in toward A at the same time. In other words, it's a head on collision. Either A's punch lands on B's head, or A's punching arm gets wrapped by B's arm. No back step or side step allowed.

Test this for 20 rounds and record the result. What do you think the final record will be? Can A win more rounds than B, or the other way around?

[-N-]

I'm talking about a grappler fights against a striker, and not 2 grapplers fight against each other. The "octopus" strategy won't give you any advantage if your opponent is also a good grappler.

Ok, I see.

Though don't people integrate a variety of methods - kicking, punching, throwing?

If someone primarily punches, can't they still use the grappler's methods for countering grab/wrap?

Integration across all skills is the ultimate reflection of 一手化五手.

[YouKnowWho]

If someone primarily punches, can't they still use the grappler's methods for countering grab/wrap?

Of course you can. The concern is, do you know how to

- take your opponent down from there?
- deal with your opponent's counters?
- ...


Integration across all skills is the ultimate reflection of 一手化五手.
After you have wrapped your opponent's arms,

Your "over hook" can change into:

- head lock,
- cracking,
- shoulder lifting,
- chin pulling,
- ...

Your "under hook" can change into:

- shoulder pulling,
- shoulder pressing,
- waist surrounding,
- single leg,
- ...

[-N-]

After you have wrapped your opponent's arms,

Your "over hook" can change into:

- head lock,
- cracking,
- shoulder lifting,
- chin pulling,
- ...

Your "under hook" can change into:

- shoulder pulling,
- shoulder pressing,
- waist surrounding,
- single leg,
- ...

That is the meaning of 一手化五手.

And the concept is recursive as well.

[-N-]

Lately I like the "octopus" strategy more. It's simpler.

Nothing wrong with being able to change from striking or kicking to "octopus" to kao da or shuai.

That makes more options for 一手化五手.

Then it really becomes TCMA MMA.

And everybody still has their specialty.

[-N-]

No back step or side step allowed.

Real fight has footwork.

[YouKnowWho]

Real fight has footwork.

That's true too. In real fight, if your opponent refuses to commit on anything, it's very difficult to get a "clinch" on him. It's not fair to say that "clinch" is not effective.

When I was in Taiwan, I had tested this strategy myself. I had wrestled more than 20 of my SC brothers. I concentrated only on not to let my opponent's hands to wrap on my arms (or grabbed on my SC jacket). In 30 minutes, my opponent's hands could not get a single "clinch" on me. It was not that hard to do. My opponent felt very frustrated. If that was a tournament match, I would be dis-qualified as "refuse to fight".

For example, if I try to

- over hook your arm, you just rotate your arm the same direction as I do, there is no way that my arm will be able to wrap on your arm.
- under hook your arm, you just raise your arm straight up, there is no way that I can get under hook on your arm.

To play 100% defense is easy. But where can that 100% defense give you? Nothing but make the fight last a bit longer. Soon or later you have to commit on something.

[-N-]

To play 100% defense is easy. But where can that 100% defense give you? Nothing but make the fight last a bit longer. Soon or later you have to commit on something.

Agreed. I tell the students they can't kill anybody like that.

Real fight is not 100% one way or another. Has to be combination depending on what is needed and what the opponent doesn't expect. The one that changes and adjusts faster has an advantage.

Faster is not just about fast hands. It's about fast change so the other person can't keep up.

Military people say to operate inside the enemy's OODA loop.

[-N-]

Military people say to operate inside the enemy's OODA loop.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boyd_(military_strategist)#References

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy-Maneuverability_theory

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patterns_of_Conflict

Interesting that US military strategy realized only in the 20th century what TCMA has known for hundreds of years.

Some relevant sections from the listed articles:


The OODA Loop

Boyd's key concept was that of the decision cycle or OODA loop, the process by which an entity (either an individual or an organization) reacts to an event. According to this idea, the key to victory is to be able to create situations wherein one can make appropriate decisions more quickly than one's opponent. The construct was originally a theory of achieving success in air-to-air combat, developed out of Boyd's Energy-Maneuverability theory and his observations on air combat between MiG-15s and North American F-86 Sabres in Korea. Harry Hillaker (chief designer of the F-16) said of the OODA theory, "Time is the dominant parameter. The pilot who goes through the OODA cycle in the shortest time prevails because his opponent is caught responding to situations that have already changed."

John Boyd during the Korean War

Boyd hypothesized that all intelligent organisms and organizations undergo a continuous cycle of interaction with their environment. Boyd breaks this cycle down to four interrelated and overlapping processes through which one cycles continuously:

Observation: the collection of data by means of the senses
Orientation: the analysis and synthesis of data to form one's current mental perspective
Decision: the determination of a course of action based on one's current mental perspective
Action: the physical playing-out of decisions

Of course, while this is taking place, the situation may be changing. It is sometimes necessary to cancel a planned action in order to meet the changes. This decision cycle is thus known as the OODA loop. Boyd emphasized that this decision cycle is the central mechanism enabling adaptation (apart from natural selection) and is therefore critical to survival.


In order to win, we should operate at a faster tempo or rhythm than our adversaries--or, better yet, get inside [the] adversary's Observation-Orientation-Decision-Action time cycle or loop. ... Such activity will make us appear ambiguous (unpredictable) thereby generate confusion and disorder among our adversaries--since our adversaries will be unable to generate mental images or pictures that agree with the menacing as well as faster transient rhythm or patterns they are competing against.

[...]

The key is to obscure your intentions and make them unpredictable to your opponent while you simultaneously clarify his intentions. That is, operate at a faster tempo to generate rapidly changing conditions that inhibit your opponent from adapting or reacting to those changes and that suppress or destroy his awareness. Thus, a hodgepodge of confusion and disorder occur to cause him to over- or under-react to conditions or activities that appear to be uncertain, ambiguous, or incomprehensible.

[...]

The approach favors agility over raw power in dealing with human opponents in any endeavor. John Boyd put this ethos into practice with his work for the USAF. He was an advocate of maneuverable fighter aircraft, in contrast to the heavy, powerful jet fighters that were prevalent in the 1960s, such as the F-4 Phantom II and General Dynamics F-111. Boyd inspired the Light Weight Fighter Project that produced the successful F-16 Fighting Falcon and F/A-18 Hornet, which are still in use by the United States and several other military powers into the 21st century.



E-M background
Boyd was a US Air Force colonel who had developed the energy–maneuverability theory of air combat. This was based on formulas that revealed a fighter aircraft's ability to maneuver, allowing direct comparison between different designs using simple metrics. This work became extremely influential over time, resulting in changes to the design of the F-15 Eagle, and producing the basic design parameters of the F-16 Fighting Falcon.[3]

Much of the E-M theory was based on the idea of generating rapid "transients", continual changes in position and maneuvering. The idea was for a fighter pilot to keep the enemy continually guessing his intentions, thereby delaying the decision-making process to the point that the enemy would be unable to predict the future position of his aircraft. To do this, a fighter craft would need to be able to quickly gain or lose energy, as well as having a high roll rate in order to generate out-of-plane maneuvers.[4]

Patterns is essentially a generalization of this concept, applying to the entire war fighting experience instead of a single dogfight.

Introductory material

Patterns opens with a short discussion of the E-M theory, although not by name. It calls for a fighter that can "choose engagement opportunities - yet has fast transient ... characteristics."[5] It continues by stating that the idea of fast transients in a fighter suggests that the key to winning any engagement is to have a faster tempo of operations. Boyd then introduces the concept of the OODA loop,[6] and suggests that a fast enough response loop can "[c]ollapse [the] adversary's system into confusion and disorder by causing him to over and under react to activity".[7] The aim was to make a series of actions that were so confusing that the enemy would expend too much of his resources on small actions and not enough on large ones, eventually causing his forces to be out-of-place and subject to encirclement.

How many times have you heard or seen this in TCMA?

一手化五手 is just one way to implement all of this.

[YouKnowWho]

Faster is not just about fast hands. It's about fast change so the other person can't keep up.

I'll add that fast hand can lead your opponent into your trap. One of my favor trap setting is to parry down my opponent's leading arm. 99% of the time, my opponent would borrow my parrying down force, spins his arm, and gives me a haymaker (or hook) on the side of my head. When his arm is spinning, my arm is already waiting to wrap that spinning arm. When you set your opponent up, and your opponent falls into your trap, you will smile in your dream for many nights. That's the "fun" part of the TCMA.

IMO, the big difference between TCMA and non-TCMA is the TCMA has a concept that "after you throw your punch out, you should never pull you hand back empty".

To a

- boxer, a punch is just a punch.
- TCMA guy, a punch is a punch plus a "hook".

[-N-]

I'll add that fast hand can lead your opponent into your trap. One of my favor trap setting is to parry down my opponent's leading arm. 99% of the time, my opponent would borrow my parrying force, spins his arm, and gives me a haymaker (or hook) on the side of my head. When his arm is spinning, my arm is already waiting to wrap that spinning arm. When you set your opponent up, and your opponent falls into your trap, you will smile in your dream for many nights. That's the "fun" part of the TCMA.

Fast mind beats fast hand :)

Yes, fun.