What constitutes a Grand Master?

[WcForMe]

Hey all my first post here but been a long time lurker. This thread is in response to the Samuel kwok chi São session posted a few weeks ago on here. That session was not the best by all accounts. But lead me to think what actually constitutes a grand master?

Is it knowledge alone or the fact that you personally have fought live opponents in real street fights etc.

Ip Chun himself always says that he has never fought with wing chun ever. I'm sure Samuel kwok has never fought for real either but could be wrong on this! That fact that they have knowledge of the system is not important? If that's the case then I don't think many practioneers can claim to be a GM.

Another point is that we all get good days and bad days. Some days I'm on it sparring well using all my tools, but another time I'm slow think too much and is just a bad day. We are all human I don't care what your title is, so logic dictates so do the GMs! From what I have seen I'm my personal opinion is that people that are good at fighting before they do wing chun seem to excel at it. Gary Lam, Wong Shun Leung etc. I'm just interested to see others point of view on this subject. I have to point out I have never met Sam Kwok, trained with him or any of his people other than Sifu Brian Desir which I train with but not directly.

[LFJ]

There is no such thing as a "grandmaster", period. It's a marketing term.

[WcForMe]

Ok fair comment so what constitutes a extremely high calibre teacher? I hate marketing as much as the next guy, but in fairness there needs to some order in classes/kwoons/organisations etc!

[Minghequan]

Simple. One who is honest with his students, others and most importantly himself!

One who is willing to answer questions!

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its not really that complicate or esoteric.
A "grand master" is ANY teacher that has taught long enough to have students that are "masters".
Is it a subjective term?
Sure because there is no clear and defined view of what a master is (some systems that use belt rankings do, most don't).

[zuti car]

Simple. One who is honest with his students, others and most importantly himself!

One who is willing to answer questions!

You wanted to say ...Hendrik? :D:D:D

[GlennR]

Simple. One who is honest with his students, others and most importantly himself!

One who is willing to answer questions!

Rubbish, if i say im honestly hopeless im a Grandmaster????

[Sihing73]

Unfortunately, it seems like those who form their own systems and teach often take the title of "Grandmaster"
I can name several off the top of my head who are "Grandmasters" at least for their systems.

I would tend to agree with Sanjuro_ronin as I feel his definition is correct.
As to one who teaches openly and honestly; a sad fact is that many who claim the title are far from honest.
Besides, don't stores abound of teachers who purposely taught students incorrectly or not fully as a means of testing them?

[slick69]

Its simply a teacher or teachers.
Lets not dramatize this...

[Sihing73]

Its simply a teacher or teachers.
Lets not dramatize this...

This is the WC forum; there is little else but DRAMA to be found here.

Also, to say it is simply a teacher or teachers is not really correct.
The title Grandmaster would be more specific to one who has taught others who have students of their own.
It is kind of a progression of titles based on a familial system of titles.

In a structured system with rankings then the title could be designated based on various things.

However, in the traditional approach it could be applied to your Sifu's Sifu.
BTW a person can be considered a Sifu, regardless of skill, simply due to the fact that they have students.
Although, when I was in WT I referred to my instructor as Sihing and to KK as Sifu and LT as Sigung.

[LFJ]

For what it's worth, these are terms made up by Westerners which don't correspond to anything in Chinese anyway. "Master" and "Grandmaster" have certain connotations of top-level skill that aren't there in the Chinese words.

[Jimbo]

The term 'grand teacher' would be more appropriate, IMO. I personally dislike the word 'master' at all, let alone 'grand master'. Sifu or Sigung should suffice.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Its semantics really.
I personally think that just "plain" Teacher is more than enough.
That said, some cultures love titles.

[Jimbo]

Its semantics really.
I personally think that just "plain" Teacher is more than enough.
That said, some cultures love titles.

When studying southern systems, my teachers were addressed as Sifu. When I studied northern styles in Taiwan, both of the teachers I had (one old and the other fairly young) were addressed as 'laoshi' (teacher). I never heard anyone using the title 'Shifu/Sifu'.

[Chun Ki]

ok since Hendrik already derailed kfo lately.



Just for your information, hundreds of wcners now learning the seven bows and wing chun 1848 every months. So this year alone, will reach a thousand. Thanks for your publicity!


Apparently Hendrik has a thousand student under him. most likely from Sergio's IWKA organization.

Does this make Hendrik an IWKA grandmaster?

[LFJ]

When studying southern systems, my teachers were addressed as Sifu. When I studied northern styles in Taiwan, both of the teachers I had (one old and the other fairly young) were addressed as 'laoshi' (teacher). I never heard anyone using the title 'Shifu/Sifu'.

I don't often hear Laoshi on the mainland, although sometimes, often when it's like one to one tuition. Usually the head of a martial arts school is the Shifu and anyone teaching under him in the school is the Jiaolian (coach). The terminology has far less connotation of virtually unbeatable, top-level skill, like a football coach. We don't have football masters and grandmasters leading the teams. :rolleyes:

[YouKnowWho]

When I studied northern styles in Taiwan, both of the teachers I had (one old and the other fairly young) were addressed as 'laoshi' (teacher). I never heard anyone using the title 'Shifu/Sifu'.

In Taiwan, the term

- Laoshi is used as a "student" to call his teacher.
- Sifu is used as a "disciple" to call his teacher.

If a student is not a formal disciple of his teacher, he can only calls his teacher as Laoshi. He should not call his teacher as Sifu. For example, my long fist teacher is my Laoshi but my Shuai-Chiao teacher is my Sifu.

As far as in China, it may be different.

[Bai Chi]

What constitutes a Grand Master?

Followers willing to call someone a Grand Master. Documents and belts mean nothing without followers who praise the achievement.

[Chun Ki]

What constitutes a Grand Master?

Followers willing to call someone a Grand Master. Documents and belts mean nothing without followers who praise the achievement.


GM Hendrik already has followers who give him praise to his [fabricated] documents. He claims he will reach a thousand students this year alone.
His student base is IWKA.

[PalmStriker]

GrandMaster is a title reserved for those great Kungfu Masters that were born before the turn of the Century. Modern day Kungfu lineages no longer require titles such as this nobel title. Master is sufficient. One should honor the legendary status of the Masters that lived during times of Legendary Deeds and skills unprecedented.

[crazedjustice88]

I'm not a wing chun man but I have my answer hahaha

My sifu, Grandmaster David Chin of the Hop Gar (Ng Yim Ming lineage) and the Original Yang tai chi style (Kuo Yuen-Ling) is held in very high esteem by many people. I personally believe he has the term grandmaster besides having students that have students. When I think of a grandmaster I think of these:

- someone who is battle tested
- someone who has explored every nook and cranny of his art and its obvious to even the newest of people in the field
- someone who is open to something to help his style because that is his/her baby
- someone who is humble and lets other people call him that and never referes to himself as it.

Thats just me though.

[anerlich]

"Grandmaster" IMO is a title that should only be conferred posthumously.

Any live person answering to such a title IMO is a w@nker.

[RenDaHai]

Its simply a confusion in the terminology.

Shifu means literally 'Scholarly-Father' as in someone YOU (and its a personal address) take to be your adoptive father in the scholarly realm. It CAN be translated as master, but master as in the office of authority NOT as in an expert of a skill. These are different uses of the word master in English. It means master in the way you call the school coach the 'games master', or how you are master of your house. As in a position of authority, not a level of skill.

Now of course you could also say someone is a master of kung fu implying skill but that is a different use of the word master. Shifu does NOT confer that. To say that in Chinese you would say 'Haoshou' or 'Wulin Gaoshou' (an master/expert and grandmaster respectively, literally 'high hand').

In such a way ShiYe or any of the other terms, they also imply an office of authority, a kung fu family relation, not a level of skill. As long as you understand this then thats fine. In this way a grandmaster in a school is basically the headmaster.

In the dictionary grandmaster can be defined as the head of an order of chivalry which is kind of what the head of a kung fu clan is, after all the 'Wulin' is a kind of chivalrous fraternity. In such a way the term can be used but one must understand that it does NOT refer to skill but rather to authority. Since this is ambiguous in English I would suggest headmaster as an alternative.


And before anyone gets ideas of having their students refer to them as 'Wulin Gaoshou' this is NOT a title, no one would ever address you as it and you cannot call yourself it, it is used about you in the third person after you have won renown.

[PalmStriker]

:) The GrandMaster Title of Reservation: http://wingchunpai.com/my-impressions-of-yip-man-tong-in-foshan-by-chu-shong-tin/

[Charles S]

Its simply a confusion in the terminology.

Shifu means literally 'Scholarly-Father' as in someone YOU (and its a personal address) take to be your adoptive father in the scholarly realm. It CAN be translated as master, but master as in the office of authority NOT as in an expert of a skill. These are different uses of the word master in English. It means master in the way you call the school coach the 'games master', or how you are master of your house. As in a position of authority, not a level of skill.

Now of course you could also say someone is a master of kung fu implying skill but that is a different use of the word master. Shifu does NOT confer that. To say that in Chinese you would say 'Haoshou' or 'Wulin Gaoshou' (an master/expert and grandmaster respectively, literally 'high hand').

In such a way ShiYe or any of the other terms, they also imply an office of authority, a kung fu family relation, not a level of skill. As long as you understand this then thats fine. In this way a grandmaster in a school is basically the headmaster.

In the dictionary grandmaster can be defined as the head of an order of chivalry which is kind of what the head of a kung fu clan is, after all the 'Wulin' is a kind of chivalrous fraternity. In such a way the term can be used but one must understand that it does NOT refer to skill but rather to authority. Since this is ambiguous in English I would suggest headmaster as an alternative.


And before anyone gets ideas of having their students refer to them as 'Wulin Gaoshou' this is NOT a title, no one would ever address you as it and you cannot call yourself it, it is used about you in the third person after you have won renown.

When I was learning, I was taught Sifu, sigung, then gon gon. I don't know what it means, or what language it is. It just means you have students that have made Sifu level, and one of their students became a Sifu. When you had grand students who made Sifu, you became a leader of your own clan/line. Since wing chun can be absorbed fairly quickly, you have a lot of this. I personally think a grandmaster should be the head of the style. Good luck with that in wing chun

[stonecrusher69]

A Grand Master is some one who is hopefully skilled,knowledgeable,and has many years of experience and is recognized by his peers as such. It should not be politics, or about how bad ass you are and how great your teacher is or what lineage your from. A Grand Master title is something your peers gives to you not your self. I realize this is not how it always works though.

[Grumblegeezer]

A Grand Master is some one who is hopefully skilled,knowledgeable,and has many years of experience and is recognized by his peers as such. It should not be politics, or about how bad ass you are and how great your teacher is or what lineage your from. A Grand Master title is something your peers gives to you not your self. I realize this is not how it always works though.

IMO all the above is what a "Master" is. The term "Grandmaster" seems excessive somehow. In some arts rank inflation has reached the point where living individuals refer to themselves as "Great Grandmaster". That's really over the top.

[Phil Redmond]

Ok fair comment so what constitutes a extremely high calibre teacher? I hate marketing as much as the next guy, but in fairness there needs to some order in classes/kwoons/organisations etc!
There is nothing wrong with marketing. That's how business can make money. There is nothing wrong with a martial arts teacher making money. Yip Man charged, and so did his Sifu Chan Wah Sun. Now if some people decide they want to teach for free because they feel charging is a bad thing they have a right to their opinion. But you can't fault a Sifu for charging for all his/her years of training, sacrifice, and experience.

[WcForMe]

There is nothing wrong with marketing. That's how business can make money. There is nothing wrong with a martial arts teacher making money. Yip Man charged, and so did his Sifu Chan Wah Sun. Now if some people decide they want to teach for free because they feel charging is a bad thing they have a right to their opinion. But you can't fault a Sifu for charging for all his/her years of training, sacrifice, and experience.


I have no problem with people making money with martial arts at all let me make that clear! It is an expensive hobby/job/second income in time and money so there's no issue with that at all!

What i hate about marketing is all the claims about how original or deadly or the secret special powers you could possess if you only come to Sifu so on and so on! Yeah you have to sell your school to the masses but is this really the best way? Just look at General people's perceptions of wing chun today! It's not good! Not that I care as I still train hard. As you rightly say people can charge whatever the hell they like, if people are willing to pay then fine. If people are willing to believe outlandish claims with little to no proof again up to them! Like I say you need to have some order in classes with sifus, coaches, various student levels etc. This part of marketing I have no issue with.

I was more interested in what people actually thought what the title meant of grandmaster. And even more interested to see if people thought if you where at a level of Sifu, grandmaster etc if you have a bad day (as we all do as we are only people) what peoples perceptions where on that. Which mainly came from the God aweful Sam kwok video as per op. I have been to quite a few seminars from various high level well thought of sifus here in the UK. Even some of them I have seen mess up various drills, chi sao and sparring. Do I think less of them because they had a off moment or day. No I dont. Just surprises me people expect perfection every single time from these guys! The just insane In my opinion anyways.

[stonecrusher69]

I don't understand why many WC guys get their panties in a bunch if someone uses GM..For me it does not bother me. You can call your self whatever you like. If people in your lineage or organization recognize you as such who are we to say otherwise. I say look past the title and see what the person is all about.

[LFJ]

I say look past the title and see what the person is all about.

That's something usually an experienced MAist will learn to do. A complete newb to the MA world can easily be duped because they assume these titles mean something more than they usually do, especially when they're young and impressionable. That's where the danger of misused titles and made up ranks come in.

[stonecrusher69]

That's something usually an experienced MAist will learn to do. A complete newb to the MA world can easily be duped because they assume these titles mean something more than they usually do, especially when they're young and impressionable. That's where the danger of misused titles and made up ranks come in.

Yeah your probably right but they will learn in the long run. I was duped my self a few times,but you live and learn and move on.

[Phil Redmond]

I was just at a very large Chinese MA event in L.A. The Chinese Sifus introduces some of the other teachers as Grandmaster. Even some Chinese are using the term now.

[xiao yao]

Its just a mis translation of Sifu/Sigung

Sifu is teacher, Sigung is grandteacher. The character Shi (si in cantonese) can have the connotation of "a master of a skill" for example calling somebody like an amazing chef or artist Da Shi (great master). But Shi normally refers to teacher.

So by this understanding, grandmaster just means the teacher of your teacher.

Sigung is not an objective title somebody obtains through skill or rank, it just means he is the person who taught your sifu, as opposed to somebody who teaches you directly. To somebody outside your style/organisation, they shouldnt call him Sigung.