Internal training of the SLT

[stonecrusher69]

Does anyone train your SLT this way?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99BEF7uhOXk

[Sihing73]

When I first started training under Sifu Roy Undem he first had me do nothing but stance work,
When we started the SNT we performed the first section very slowly with breathing.
The entire form, at the kwoon took about 15 minutes. However, the home training of the form was supposed to take upwards of 20 minutes.

FWIW, when I went to Germany and entered WT the form was done faster and not slowly.
However, it was my understanding that the slow SNT was for development purposes and was considered "Advanced"

Doing the form slowly allows development of stance, sinking, elbow placement etc. Not that these things cannot or are not developed by doing the form more quickly. An old axiom I tend to go by is something like:

If you can do a movement slowly you can do it quickly.
If you can do a movement quickly you may not be able to do it slowly.

[stonecrusher69]

When I first started training under Sifu Roy Undem he first had me do nothing but stance work,
When we started the SNT we performed the first section very slowly with breathing.
The entire form, at the kwoon took about 15 minutes. However, the home training of the form was supposed to take upwards of 20 minutes.

FWIW, when I went to Germany and entered WT the form was done faster and not slowly.
However, it was my understanding that the slow SNT was for development purposes and was considered "Advanced"

Doing the form slowly allows development of stance, sinking, elbow placement etc. Not that these things cannot or are not developed by doing the form more quickly. An old axiom I tend to go by is something like:

If you can do a movement slowly you can do it quickly.
If you can do a movement quickly you may not be able to do it slowly.

Dave I think your missing the point. Just doing the form slow or fast
is not the point.It's the intent that matter he behind the movements. The breathing and the mental intent is what's more important otherwise its just exercise.

[Sihing73]

Dave I think your missing the point. Just doing the form slow or fast
is not the point.It's the intent that matter he behind the movements. The breathing and the mental intent is what's more important otherwise its just exercise.

Please reread my post. In the second line you will see that I specifically mention breathing.
As to intent that should be self evident. If you simply go through the motions, no matter what you are doing, you will never progress beyond a certain point.

So, what specific breathing protocols are you referencing?
What is it that makes your intent obvious or ingrained within the movements?

[stonecrusher69]

Please reread my post. In the second line you will see that I specifically mention breathing.
As to intent that should be self evident. If you simply go through the motions, no matter what you are doing, you will never progress beyond a certain point.

So, what specific breathing protocols are you referencing?
What is it that makes your intent obvious or ingrained within the movements?

Yes, your right you did mention breathing as stated but really everyone breaths during SLT otherwise you die. What makes it different is how you breath with the movements and with mental focus that is different. The video explains the difference.

[Sihing73]

Well to be honest it has been a while since I did SNT in this manner.
There are various breathing methods which I would use, depending on the desired result.
Most simply, the goal is to breath in through the nose and out through the mouth with the tongue placed against the roof of the mouth.
When attempting to do a lengthy SNT the focus was on breathing and relaxing into a sunken horse.
Did not really focus on how many breaths for each extension or retraction, just utilized the idea of moving so slowly that movement became imperceptible.
The idea was not so much to focus on the arm movement but on achieving a state of no mind in movement. Not sure how much sense that makes.

Now at other times I may do abdominal or reverse breathing while doing the form and in such cases would then add the focus on the number of breaths.
In such cases the number of breathes completed would directly correspond with the time desired to complete the first section of the SNT.

In addition I have also done Standing posture training or Jam Jong.

Lately I am doing more training as regards Silat with a focus on aggressive forward movement.

[LFJ]

Does anyone train your SLT this way?

Not I.

I of course do the opening section slowly too, but for a different reason.

I exhale when issuing force in the form, but as far as counting breaths, no. Once you start counting breaths, breathing becomes unnatural, voluntary. It's an involuntary action. The only way for it to remain natural is to not mess with it. Counting breaths also requires attention to be placed on the numbers and cycles of breathing, occupying a part of the mental focus.

As for mental focus, peripheral vision is good but awareness of where your hands are should come more from a bodily awareness that covers the entire body and doesn't rely on vision, that way in fighting you can focus on your opponent. If you develop this kind of bodily awareness, then again your mental focus is not occupied by following your fingertips, like counting breaths. Then you can use your mental focus entirely for the development of the behaviors and strategies we use in the system for fighting.

What you think about while doing the form is important. Counting breaths and following fingertips are unnecessary distractions. Breathing is already involuntary and doesn't need regulating, and bodily awareness can deal with where your arms go.

The most important idea here in SNT is how the elbow is used. That's why I perform it slowly. I don't for a second believe that standing still and doing slow movements will train you to not freakout when you're getting punched in the face. At most, it's an inefficient way to train to handle shock. Meditation may help you become a calmer person in general situations, but for dealing with the shock of being punched in the face, it's best to get used to being punched through regular sparring. There's really no way around that. Specific chi-sau drills can be helpful if freaking out, tensing up, chasing hands, and grabbing remain a problem, like the old blindfold method with applied LSJC.

[YouKnowWho]

I exhale when issuing force in the form, but as far as counting breaths, no. Once you start counting breaths, breathing becomes unnatural, voluntary. It's an involuntary action.
Agree with you 100% there.

Many Taiji guys also use several breaths for one move to achieve their slowness. IMO, that kind of training is wrong. Each and ever single move should be equal to either one inhale or one exhale. You should use your inhale and exhale to train your elastic feeling. The 3 breaths move back and 3 breaths move forward training method not only violent the "combat" principle (because a punch with 3 breaths is just too slow to have any "combat" value), it's also not good for "health" (because your breathing doesn't coordinate with your body movement).

As far as how fast or how slow should you train your form, if you train your form when you just

- finish your 3 miles running, your breathing will be fast, your form speed should be fast.
- wake up in the morning, your breathing is slow, your form speed should slow.

You breathing speed should control your form speed.

In "combat", you may want to throw 4 punches in 1 second. When you do hat, you should exhale, 1/5 of your lung capacity in each punch. After you have thrown 4 punches, you will still have 1/5 amount of air left in your lung (in case anything go wrong). You should never leave your lung to be completely empty.

In other words, it's

- OK to speed up and coordinate your singe move with partial breath.
- not OK to slow down and coordinate your single move with multiple breaths.

[Vajramusti]

Does anyone train your SLT this way?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99BEF7uhOXk
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We probably are on different planets- which is ok.No preaching from me.

I do the first section of the slt at different speeds depending on the time at hand and the energy level present at the time.
The mind should be clear aware of the details at all times. Of course breath is life and always important.
I breathe naturally blending with the motions. Breathing will vary depending on the need.
Not focusing in inhaling exhaling. No sanchin breathing.

[deejaye72]

Not I.

I of course do the opening section slowly too, but for a different reason.

I exhale when issuing force in the form, but as far as counting breaths, no. Once you start counting breaths, breathing becomes unnatural, voluntary. It's an involuntary action. The only way for it to remain natural is to not mess with it. Counting breaths also requires attention to be placed on the numbers and cycles of breathing, occupying a part of the mental focus.

As for mental focus, peripheral vision is good but awareness of where your hands are should come more from a bodily awareness that covers the entire body and doesn't rely on vision, that way in fighting you can focus on your opponent. If you develop this kind of bodily awareness, then again your mental focus is not occupied by following your fingertips, like counting breaths. Then you can use your mental focus entirely for the development of the behaviors and strategies we use in the system for fighting.

What you think about while doing the form is important. Counting breaths and following fingertips are unnecessary distractions. Breathing is already involuntary and doesn't need regulating, and bodily awareness can deal with where your arms go.

The most important idea here in SNT is how the elbow is used. That's why I perform it slowly. I don't for a second believe that standing still and doing slow movements will train you to not freakout when you're getting punched in the face. At most, it's an inefficient way to train to handle shock. Meditation may help you become a calmer person in general situations, but for dealing with the shock of being punched in the face, it's best to get used to being punched through regular sparring. There's really no way around that. Specific chi-sau drills can be helpful if freaking out, tensing up, chasing hands, and grabbing remain a problem, like the old blindfold method with applied LSJC.


good post i agree

[stonecrusher69]

the 3 prayers to buddha is a form of moving meditation.Counting breaths is very common technique in meditation. Most forms of Qi Gong or meditation use some form of techniques to regulate the body, breathing, and the mind.

[YouKnowWho]

the 3 prayers to buddha is a form of moving meditation.Counting breaths is very common technique in meditation. Most forms of Qi Gong or meditation use some form of techniques to regulate the body, breathing, and the mind.

In

- "meditation", when do you change your exhale to inhale makes no difference.
- "combat", when do you change your exhale to inhale makes big difference.

During the change from exhale to inhale, that's your body weakness. In TCMA, you train to cover your weakness at the end of your punch and when you pull your punch back. When you play offense and put your opponent into defense, your opponent won't have chance to attack you. If you inhale at that moment, you will be safe. So when "mediation" and "combat" has conflict, are you going to let "combat" to over rule "meditation", or the other way around.

This kind of issue also exist in "combat" vs. "health" discussion. When your fist meets your opponent's face, it's good for "combat" (you knock your opponent down), but it's not good for your own "health" (you may hurt your own hand).

IMO, the "combat" guideline should be more important than "meditation" or "health" if there is a conflict.

[anerlich]

I was taught the three breath cycle on the movements at my current school. If you're feeling wild and crazy, you can take it to four.

I get the combat-specific thing, but I don't usually defend myself by moving my hands slowly forward or backward so I don't really see how it combat-specific breathing applies to this specific movement, which IMO is only vaguely combat-specific. In this case, indeed, when exhalation changes to inhalation doesn't make much difference.

My teacher includes a long bridge strike after the huen sao going forward, and specific percussive breathing is integrated into that. Other parts of the form also integrate specific breathing technique and sounds. in some places one exhalation is used for multiple strikes, etc.

I was taught the single breath per tan/fuk in the Sam Bai Fut section by my first KF instructor, whose WC and TCMA experience was a bit more varied. He did not advocate the slow practice of this section. I can see the logic, and also have to question whether spending 20 minutes to an hour on this form is the most effective use of training time.

I'd imagine one's opinion of the effectiveness of the multiple breaths per extension/retraction regime would tally with one's opinion of the effectiveness of standing post training.

I suggest further argument regarding the "combat specificity" of forms performance rapidly extrapolates out to the old arguments of whether forms have much point in training for combat at all, and also whether combat is or is not the end game, or only end game, of TCMA.

Breathing integration with movement and specific drills are pervasive throughout Chinese, Japanese and Russian martial arts, and probably most others too. Other physical disciplines as diverse as yoga and powerlifting include correct and specific breathing techniques as essential parts of their practice. Both Rickson Gracie and Carlos Machado advocate specific breathing patterns as part of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu training, including competitive rolling.

Breathing is one of the few bodily functions that is both voluntary and involuntary. If seeking self-mastery, even if only at the level of fighting effectively, it would seem that, given that such emphasis is placed on it by so many martial and physical disciplines, breathing deserves your attention. Just "breathing naturally" probably ain't going to get you as far as you could possibly go.

Elbow positioning IMO is as well or better developed by chi sao, and by sparring. Even boxers and wrestlers learn to keep their elbows in to avoid getting hammered in the ribs, liver and spleen, or clinched on, respectively.

[LFJ]

Elbow positioning IMO is as well or better developed by chi sao, and by sparring. Even boxers and wrestlers learn to keep their elbows in to avoid getting hammered in the ribs, liver and spleen, or clinched on, respectively.

It's more than that. It's not an elbow "position" but an elbow "behavior" that I focus on throughout the form. Each action is done in a specific way from the elbow for tactical striking and protection. If it isn't developed properly in the SNT form, even single chi-sau won't run well. If problems with elbow use arise in chi-sau, they can often be managed by referencing back to your basic form.

But many people mentally focus on what the hand and wrist are doing in the form. This directs energy to the wrong point. Without understanding the use of the elbow, the entire system doesn't function as it should (according to my lineage). Hence the importance of instilling this behavior from the very start of one's training.

[LFJ]

the 3 prayers to buddha is a form of moving meditation.Counting breaths is very common technique in meditation. Most forms of Qi Gong or meditation use some form of techniques to regulate the body, breathing, and the mind.

So, in your sect, this section of the form is done slowly for meditation and qigong purposes with no relation to combat other than peripheral vision training?

For me, the reason it is done slowly is to focus and rewire neural connections to an unusual yet efficient behavior in combat. This way this behavior is not only voluntary, but becomes reflexive, which is later expanded on and developed under incrementally more realistic circumstances throughout the system.

You can call that "internal" if you want, but there's no qigong or anything esoteric happening there.

[stonecrusher69]

So, in your sect, this section of the form is done slowly for meditation and qigong purposes with no relation to combat other than peripheral vision training?

NO, The practice of the SLT is performed 3 different ways. 1st your taught SLT like everyone does.Just focucing on the movements.2nd then with the breathing to .3rd then with the mind. That is how the SLT is performed. The SLT is both heigong and meditation depending on your level or what your training it for.

[T.D.O]

I was always taught to breathe independent of movement, so no one would know when your lungs are empty/full. abdominal breathing was also used for this reason (so you cant see the chest move)

Intent, for me, is placed on the tan starting from the ground, though only the elbow moves, i trick my mind to think that legs, hips, spine (whole body) is moving the tan forward ( i found that it helps with moving people/up rooting ) and on tricking the mind to feel that 1mm is an inch. ( i found this helps alot with short range power, feels like long range to me ) but no thought required when tryin to slap people about lol.

the intent part is sort of self taught.... through reading/listening/qigong and trying to figure out this internal lark. it maybe wrong, but it's changed my relaxed power/structure... a good fxxkin bit lol.


i think intent can help alot, with anything.... thats my thought, but what do i know?

[stonecrusher69]

I was always taught to breathe independent of movement, so no one would know when your lungs are empty/full. abdominal breathing was also used for this reason (so you cant see the chest move)

Intent, for me, is placed on the tan starting from the ground, though only the elbow moves, i trick my mind to think that legs, hips, spine (whole body) is moving the tan forward ( i found that it helps with moving people/up rooting ) and on tricking the mind to feel that 1mm is an inch. ( i found this helps alot with short range power, feels like long range to me ) but no thought required when tryin to slap people about lol.
In fighti
the intent part is sort of self taught.... through reading/listening/qigong and trying to figure out this internal lark. it maybe wrong, but it's changed my relaxed power/structure... a good fxxkin bit lol.


i think intent can help alot, with anything.... thats my thought, but what do i know?

The SLT is actually is very simple not very complicated.Sometimes we make more out of something then really was intended. In fighting you need movement,breathing and mental focus.SLT trains that..

[Vajramusti]

The SLT is actually is very simple not very complicated.Sometimes we make more out of something then really was intended. In fighting you need movement,breathing and mental focus.SLT trains that..
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IMHO there are lots of details in slt that does not meet the eye at first- it is the most basic yet the most advanced form.

[stonecrusher69]

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IMHO there are lots of details in slt that does not meet the eye at first- it is the most basic yet the most advanced form.

I agree there details that is not always noticeable at first. That is why you need a good teacher. Each line has there own details I just shared a few.



















i











i

[LFJ]

The SLT is actually is very simple not very complicated.Sometimes we make more out of something then really was intended. In fighting you need movement,breathing and mental focus.SLT trains that..

Well, from my point of view, your approach is overcomplicated with unnecessary distractions. You won't be counting breaths in fighting. In fighting, you want to breathe naturally and exhale with exertion. So I don't see the use or connection counting breaths would have with fighting. Likewise, you don't want to be mentally focussed on your own hands in a fight or follow them with your peripheral vision. That should be dealt with through bodily awareness and your mental focus placed on your opponent so you can seek and destroy.

[Sihing73]

Well, from my point of view, your approach is overcomplicated with unnecessary distractions. You won't be counting breaths in fighting. In fighting, you want to breathe naturally and exhale with exertion. So I don't see the use or connection counting breaths would have with fighting. Likewise, you don't want to be mentally focussed on your own hands in a fight or follow them with your peripheral vision. That should be dealt with through bodily awareness and your mental focus placed on your opponent so you can seek and destroy.

In this case I think you are missing the point.

While you may not "count breaths" in fighting, the attributes you gain from being able to control your breathing could carry over into fighting.
I mean after all, so you stand in YJKM while fighting? Yet the entire SNT is done in this stance, without any movement.
Kind of like Chi Sau and whether or not it is fighting or even good for training to fight.

Training for certain attributes may not be the same as fighting, but the things learned and skills developed could be useful in fighting.

[LFJ]

While you may not "count breaths" in fighting, the attributes you gain from being able to control your breathing could carry over into fighting.
I mean after all, so you stand in YJKM while fighting?

Of course not everything is an application, but everything in the system I do is part of the development method of this approach to fighting.

I don't see how counting three full breaths during the extension of taan-sau creates an attribute of breath-control that carries over into fighting. You don't voluntarily control breathing like that in fighting. Voluntarily inhaling and exhaling would be a huge distraction, and unnecessary at that since it's already an involuntary action. Exhalation upon exertion of force on the other hand will be a useful habit.

If you have too much trouble keeping your rate of breathing in check, I'd suggest cardio training, not breath-counting while standing still.

[Sihing73]

Of course not everything is an application, but everything in the system I do is part of the development method of this approach to fighting.

I don't see how counting three full breaths during the extension of taan-sau creates an attribute of breath-control that carries over into fighting. You don't voluntarily control breathing like that in fighting. Voluntarily inhaling and exhaling would be a huge distraction, and unnecessary at that since it's already an involuntary action. Exhalation upon exertion of force on the other hand will be a useful habit.

If you have too much trouble keeping your rate of breathing in check, I'd suggest cardio training, not breath-counting while standing still.

So a question for you then:

If you do something like reverse breathing in training are you saying that the additional lung capacity and awareness of the diaphragm and how to control and regulate ones breathing has no carry over to actual combat?

While I would advocate breathing naturally and without any set patterns, an awareness of such patterns can be useful. In addition there are instances when one may wish to utilize a specific breathing pattern, exhaling while striking for example or when being struck.

One can develop greater strength and awareness of the body by weightlifting but one would hardly apply a "bench press" in combat. Does that make the attribute of greater strength or the balance developed to lift properly less pertinent?

What has been asked in this thread applies to internal training of the SNT. That should make the purpose of training with breathing methods applicable. One may practice other methods of meditation and say they are not applicable but then one must also consider the mental state which is attained and whether such can carry over to combat.

If training as such is not your cup of tea that is fine. Maybe it would not help your approach, then again perhaps it would.

[LFJ]

One can develop greater strength and awareness of the body by weightlifting but one would hardly apply a "bench press" in combat. Does that make the attribute of greater strength or the balance developed to lift properly less pertinent?

I don't fight from YJKYM either, and neither taan-sau or fuk-sau are even literal defensive hand shapes I employ in fighting, but they have a purpose in the development method of the approach to fighting I subscribed to.

So I'm not saying things have to be directly applicable, but I simply don't see how counting three breaths while extending your arm has any relation to fight training. What kind of breath-control skill or attribute used for fighting is it supposed to develop? I see how other breath-work might serve a purpose for fight training, but not this. It seems pointless. Perhaps it can be explained how this relates to fight training.

If it's just for meditation, I think it would be more beneficial to do single-point concentration, like breath-counting while seated. The focal point of moving meditation is often on the movement, such as in walking meditation, one focuses on the steps and no longer counts breaths or tries to do both.

However one meditates is up to them, but I think when practicing SNT it is very important to have the strategy in mind and focus on developing new behaviors for combat. Shifting the mental focus to something else while doing the form would defeat the purpose, in my approach.

[Sihing73]

I don't fight from YJKYM either, and neither taan-sau or fuk-sau are even literal defensive hand shapes I employ in fighting, but they have a purpose in the development method of the approach to fighting I subscribed to.

So I'm not saying things have to be directly applicable, but I simply don't see how counting three breaths while extending your arm has any relation to fight training. What kind of breath-control skill or attribute used for fighting is it supposed to develop? I see how other breath-work might serve a purpose for fight training, but not this. It seems pointless. Perhaps it can be explained how this relates to fight training.

If it's just for meditation, I think it would be more beneficial to do single-point concentration, like breath-counting while seated. The focal point of moving meditation is often on the movement, such as in walking meditation, one focuses on the steps and no longer counts breaths or tries to do both.

However one meditates is up to them, but I think when practicing SNT it is very important to have the strategy in mind and focus on developing new behaviors for combat. Shifting the mental focus to something else while doing the form would defeat the purpose, in my approach.

Fair enough.

I am curious about your thoughts on some who perform the SNT with movement, ie: shifting or stepping.
I am also curious about your thoughts regarding the reversal of movement of the Wu and Fook Sau in the SNT. In my lineage we withdraw the Fook and Extend the Wu rather the the traditional manner where they are reversed.

Mike,
If you would prefer for me to start another thread for my questions above let me know. I do not wish to hijack your thread.
Aint I a nice guy? :D

[YouKnowWho]

the attributes you gain from being able to control your breathing could carry over into fighting.
Of course you can train meditation, health, performance, self-cultivation, inner peace searching, ... along with your "combat" training in any order that you wish. Just don't label it as "combat" training because it's not.

In TCMA, there is a breathing method called "分段呼吸法(Fen Duan Hu Xi Fa)" that you break you 1 inhale (or 1 exhale) into up to maximum 7 equal parts.

You

- inhale, stop, exhale, stop,
- inhale 1/2, stop, inhale another 1/2. stop, exhale 1/2, stop, exhale another 1/2. stop,
- ...
- inhale 1/6, stop, inhale another 1/6, stop, ..., inhale the last 1/6, stop, exhale 1/6, stop, exhale another 1/6, stop, ..., exhale the last 1/6, stop,
- inhale 1/7, stop, inhale another 1/7, stop, ..., inhale the last 1/7, stop, exhale 1/7, stop, exhale another 1/7, stop, ..., exhale the last 1/7, stop,

This way when you throw fast punches, you will know how to coordinate your breathing along with your punches. This kind of breathing method can help your "combat", but the one that the OP described cannot.

[Sihing73]

Of course you can train meditation, health, performance, self-cultivation, inner peace searching, ... along with your "combat" training in any order that you wish. Just don't label it as "combat" training because it's not.
This way when you throw fast punches, you will know how to coordinate your breathing along with your punches. This kind of breathing method can help your "combat", but the one that the OP described cannot.

Please point me to the post where I said this was "combat training".
I specifically mention this is "internal training" but that some of the attributes could carry over to "combat".

Since you have brought it up; please explain to me the combat attributes trained by doing the YJKM.
Or, by doing the SNT in a static stance with only upper body movement. Or, is there really only upper body movement or does it go deeper than that?

While we are at it could you explain whether Chess or the game of Go are "combat training" as well?

[stonecrusher69]

In

- "meditation", when do you change your exhale to inhale makes no difference.
- "combat", when do you change your exhale to inhale makes big difference.

During the change from exhale to inhale, that's your body weakness. In TCMA, you train to cover your weakness at the end of your punch and when you pull your punch back. When you play offense and put your opponent into defense, your opponent won't have chance to attack you. If you inhale at that moment, you will be safe. So when "mediation" and "combat" has conflict, are you going to let "combat" to over rule "meditation", or the other way around.

This kind of issue also exist in "combat" vs. "health" discussion. When your fist meets your opponent's face, it's good for "combat" (you knock your opponent down), but it's not good for your own "health" (you may hurt your own hand).

IMO, the "combat" guideline should be more important than "meditation" or "health" if there is a conflict.


So when "mediation" and "combat" has conflict, are you going to let "combat" to over rule "meditation", or the other way around.

Combat is combat and meditation is meditation,there is no conflict. They are two different things.

[stonecrusher69]

In this case I think you are missing the point.

While you may not "count breaths" in fighting, the attributes you gain from being able to control your breathing could carry over into fighting.
I mean after all, so you stand in YJKM while fighting? Yet the entire SNT is done in this stance, without any movement.
Kind of like Chi Sau and whether or not it is fighting or even good for training to fight.

Training for certain attributes may not be the same as fighting, but the things learned and skills developed could be useful in fighting.

Yes,correct.

[stonecrusher69]

I think a lot of Wing Chunners have a very myopic view of how Wing Chun is supposed to be trained and the reasons for it.

[YouKnowWho]

by doing the SNT in a static stance with only upper body movement. ...

I don't believe in one should only move his arm without moving his body. All power generation should come from ground up, back to front. I use something similar to Tan Shou in my rhino (big fist) strategy. When I use it, I try to move my body without moving my arms. This way, when I move my body for 1 inch, my arm can move 1 foot. It's very economic way to move. Also when I do this, even if I may miss my opponent's punch with my blocking arm, my body has already moved out of his striking path.

We have

- heard, "When you have reached to the highest level, you can only see the body movement, you will not see the arm movement".
- never heard, "When you have reached to the highest level, you can only see the arm movement, you will not see the body movement".

Not all WC system freeze their low body in training.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yie78he8Dc4

[YouKnowWho]

Since you have brought it up; please explain to me the combat attributes trained by doing the YJKM. ... While we are at it could you explain whether Chess or the game of Go are "combat training" as well?
I don't use YJKM in "combat" so I don't devote my training time into it.

Even in the GO game, you try to force your opponent to play your game, instead of to let your opponent to force you to play his game. In other word, you always have a "plan".

[Sihing73]

I don't use YJKM in "combat" so I don't devote my training time into it.

Even in the GO game, you try to force your opponent to play your game, instead of to let your opponent to force you to play his game. In other word, you always have a "plan".

So, you do not train Wing Chun??

[YouKnowWho]

So, you do not train Wing Chun??
Do I train WC as a system? No! Do I train some WC principles? Yes!

WC is one of my cross training systems. I use double Tan Shou and center line theory to construct my rhino (big fist) strategy. I use Bong Shou to deal with hook punch in clinch. Since Fu Shou and Pak Shou already exist in my major system, it adds no addition function for me. I don't use YJKYM for my fighting stance. I like to use XingYi San Ti stance instead. Not only I like to protect my center from inside out, I also like to protect my center from outside in (I call it "double spears" strategy). If something fit in my strategies, I'll use it. If not, I'll not use it. I don't train any particular style. I train whatever that I like to use from all TCMA systems.

[YouKnowWho]

Please point me to the post where I said this was "combat training".
I specifically mention this is "internal training" but that some of the attributes could carry over to "combat".

To me, "combat training" or "internal training but that some of the attributes could carry over to combat" have the same meaning. A simple "horse stance training" can fit into both cases.

[YouKnowWho]

That is one wild-ass SLT set.

Does "snake engine" suppose to look like this? His body moves more like a snake and that's for sure.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yie78he8Dc4

[PalmStriker]

Yes. That is a YK427 Snake Engine with overhead cam.:) Have watched the vid a few times. Internal Combustion Chi Kung, definitely. http://www.franciscocasaverde.com/images/zen/foto2_zen.jpg

[LFJ]

I think a lot of Wing Chunners have a very myopic view of how Wing Chun is supposed to be trained and the reasons for it.

And yet, you have no explanation of how counting three breaths while extending your arm has any relation to combat or purpose in fight training...

Is it myopic for a fight training method to be related to fighting? Doesn't sound unreasonable to me. If you use it for other reasons, I think there are better things to do to those ends, and that time devoted to SNT should be focused on the actual purpose; basic combat behavior development.

[stonecrusher69]

I posted my video in another MA forum. I copied and paste what this person said..

"In SLT/SNT in the part of the 'form' where the movements are done slowly with multiple breathes what is one training/practicing?
One is learning to 'feel' and learning to mentally express 'intent'.
Feel any tension and what is causing it; feel the changes on one's center of gravity as the movements are performed and as one inhales and exhales; feel what muscles are engaging and how to release as much of it as possible without losing the proper structures. Visualization - seeing the moves and the positions and mentally expressing what is happening as you do them. SLT is not about fighting or combat it is learning about yourself.""

-Danny T

[stonecrusher69]

And yet, you have no explanation of how counting three breaths while extending your arm has any relation to combat or purpose in fight training...

Is it myopic for a fight training method to be related to fighting? Doesn't sound unreasonable to me. If you use it for other reasons, I think there are better things to do to those ends, and that time devoted to SNT should be focused on the actual purpose; basic combat behavior development.

I did in my video..I guess your not paying attention.

[stonecrusher69]

I don't believe in one should only move his arm without moving his body. All power generation should come from ground up, back to front. I use something similar to Tan Shou in my rhino (big fist) strategy. When I use it, I try to move my body without moving my arms. This way, when I move my body for 1 inch, my arm can move 1 foot. It's very economic way to move. Also when I do this, even if I may miss my opponent's punch with my blocking arm, my body has already moved out of his striking path.

We have

- heard, "When you have reached to the highest level, you can only see the body movement, you will not see the arm movement".
- never heard, "When you have reached to the highest level, you can only see the arm movement, you will not see the body movement".

Not all WC system freeze their low body in training.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yie78he8Dc4

You move your body similar to way Weng Chun from Andrew Hoffemans lineage does it.

[YouKnowWho]

Today when I drilled my outside crescent kicks 20 times non-stop, I started to think about whether I can use

- 3 breaths for 1 kick, or
- 3 kicks for 1 breath.

I found it's impossible to do either way. I started to think why do people always use "slow punch" for meditation. Why don't people use "fast kick" for meditation instead?

Since combat is always fast, it makes sense to train your meditation fast too. This way, you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Will it be nice that when your "fist meets your opponent's face", you can also achieve maximum "inner peace" at the same time?

I don't train meditation. Someone once said, "TCMA has 3 levels, the physical level, the mental level, and the spiritual level." After so many years of TCMA training, today I'm still in my "physical level". :o

[YouKnowWho]

You move your body similar to way Weng Chun from Andrew Hoffemans lineage does it.

That wasn't me but I wish I could do as good as he did.

[LFJ]

I did in my video..I guess your not paying attention.

Watched it again, and no, you didn't.

You just said the reason it is done slowly is in part to regulate the breath, which you called the hei-gung part, but you didn't relate it to fighting or explain what purpose is served in fight training by counting three breaths while slowly extending or retracting the arm.

[Sihing73]

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1277176] I started to think why do people always use "slow punch" for meditation. Why don't people use "fast kick" for meditation instead?

Since combat is always fast, it makes sense to train your meditation fast too. This way, you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone. /QUOTE]

Maybe because if you can do something slowly you can also do it quickly but the reverse is not true.
By doing something slow one can really concentrate and develop the movements, techniques and concepts. Not as easy when doing something fast
Then again, it all depends on the level you wish to achieve. ;)

[YouKnowWho]

Maybe because if you can do something slowly you can also do it quickly but the reverse is not true.
By doing something slow one can really concentrate and develop the movements, techniques and concepts. Not as easy when doing something fast
Then again, it all depends on the level you wish to achieve. ;)
I

- agree that to do a slow side kick is much harder than to do a fast side kick because there is more balance requirement.
- disagree that to do a slow punch is much harder than to do a fast punch.

When you punch slow, it's very easy for you to concentrate on

- compress and release,
- hand coordinate with foot, elbow coordinate with knee, shoulder coordinate with hip.

When you punch fast, since you only have a small amount of time, everything will become ten times more difficult. For example, when you throw 4 punches in 1 second, which punch should you coordinate with your foot, knee, hip? It starts to get into a very complicate issue.

- If we assume that "slow punch" is the beginner level training, do we still need to train slow if we have passed that level?
- When are we going to stop "slow training" and move on to "fast training"?
- Should we still train "slow punch" when we are 80 years old if combat is our major concern?

[Sihing73]

I
- disagree that to do a slow punch is much harder than to do a fast punch.
Should we still train "slow punch" when we are 80 years old if combat is our major concern?

I think we will need to agree to disagree, nothing wrong with having different perspectives.

When I am 80 I hope to not have to worry about combat. Hopefully I will have trained my children and grand children so they can protect me :D
Then again, as I live in a more rural area, I hope to have a pack of dogs, preferably some type of wolf hybrid or similar type that can also take care of any of my combat needs.

[T.D.O]

The SLT is actually is very simple not very complicated.

wasn't hard to do... nor did it feel like a waste of time to me (not that i thought you were saying other wise) and was very happy with the result.


In fighting you need movement,breathing and mental focus.SLT trains that..

mmm.... i think intense partner training does that better, i've seen people who thought they were invincible nearly colapse like an accordion when someones shouted loudly in their face, something like "i'll fxxkin kill you!" and these people like a fight lol (not in class)

i remeber the 1st time my sifu done it to me (in class), i thought we were really going to go at it lol but it was just part of his training...

[anerlich]

Should we still train "slow punch" when we are 80 years old if combat is our major concern?

Judging from my relatives, I think I'll be more concerned with ensuring my medication comes in the correct doses than with combat. Seriously, I think I'll be trying to maximize health and well-being at that age rather than preparing for violent assaults. The CDC says that death is several thousand times more likely to come from lifestyle-related diseases than from a violent attack, and this it would seem prudent to prioritize one's training accordingly.


mmm.... i think intense partner training does that better, i've seen people who thought they were invincible nearly colapse like an accordion when someones shouted loudly in their face, something like "i'll fxxkin kill you!" and these people like a fight lol (not in class)

i remeber the 1st time my sifu done it to me (in class), i thought we were really going to go at it lol but it was just part of his training...

I don't see that so much as "mental focus" as acclimation to adrenal dump and threat. Then again, "mental focus" is not exactly a rigorous definition of anything.
"Mental focus" in the context we are discussing it probably means an ability to concentrate one's attention/intention ... and the "interview" training might help to do that under sudden stress/distraction.

Anyone that trains or competes against resisting partners/opponents usually loses notions of invincibility pretty quickly. If they really think they are the beez kneez, then they need to train with better partners.

[stonecrusher69]

[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1277176] I started to think why do people always use "slow punch" for meditation. Why don't people use "fast kick" for meditation instead?

Since combat is always fast, it makes sense to train your meditation fast too. This way, you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone. /QUOTE]

Maybe because if you can do something slowly you can also do it quickly but the reverse is not true.
By doing something slow one can really concentrate and develop the movements, techniques and concepts. Not as easy when doing something fast
Then again, it all depends on the level you wish to achieve. ;)

Its mind training,not movement training. movement training is drilling like pak sao.the form is to control your breathing and mind. To emtpy your mind.

[LFJ]

Its mind training,not movement training. movement training is drilling like pak sao.the form is to control your breathing and mind. To emtpy your mind.

Why move then? Simple seated meditation with breath observation would better serve that purpose. In my system, if you do the form with an empty mind then your movements would be empty too, without purpose.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Sihing73;1277181]

Its mind training,not movement training. movement training is drilling like pak sao.the form is to control your breathing and mind. To emtpy your mind.



------------------------- sounds vague

[Vajramusti]

Why move then? Simple seated meditation with breath observation would better serve that purpose. In my system, if you do the form with an empty mind then your movements would be empty too, without purpose.
-------------------------------------------------
Not replying. Legitimately curious- for any conversation purposes.
I know you are in China- are you Chinese?

Who is your wing chun sifu and how long did you study wing chun with him?

My identity is fairly clear cut-but if needed, I can elaborate.

[YouKnowWho]

Its mind training,not movement training. movement training is drilling like pak sao.the form is to control your breathing and mind. To emtpy your mind.

Why can't you meditate when you throw 200 punches on your heavy bag as fast you can and as hard as you can? Why do we have to define "meditation = slow move"?

The idea of "empty mind" is against the idea of "意气力(Yi Qi Li) - mind control breath, breath control force".

[YouKnowWho]

if you do the form with an empty mind then your movements would be empty too, without purpose.
This is why a traffic cop may direct traffic all his life, he will never become a MA guy. When he directs traffic and moves his arms, he didn't have "MA intend - mind".

[stonecrusher69]

wasn't hard to do... nor did it feel like a waste of time to me (not that i thought you were saying other wise) and was very happy with the result.



mmm.... i think intense partner training does that better, i've seen people who thought they were invincible nearly colapse like an accordion when someones shouted loudly in their face, something like "i'll fxxkin kill you!" and these people like a fight lol (not in class)

i remeber the 1st time my sifu done it to me (in class), i thought we were really going to go at it lol but it was just part of his training...


I agree, SLT form training is just first step in your training. You need other things like you mentioned.

[stonecrusher69]

Why move then? Simple seated meditation with breath observation would better serve that purpose. In my system, if you do the form with an empty mind then your movements would be empty too, without purpose.

The movements are the focal point. He helps to regulate the breathing and the mental focus.

[stonecrusher69]

[QUOTE=stonecrusher69;1277266]



------------------------- sounds vague

Joi for years everything you post has been vague.

[Ozzy Dave]

Gotta say, there seems to me nothing more vague than an "internal" description of a MA, why overcook things?

Dave

[stonecrusher69]

Why can't you meditate when you throw 200 punches on your heavy bag as fast you can and as hard as you can? Why do we have to define "meditation = slow move"?

The idea of "empty mind" is against the idea of "意气力(Yi Qi Li) - mind control breath, breath control force".

when ever you learn a new skill it's easier to do it slow first then to do it fast.When a baby learns to walk does it run first?

[YouKnowWho]

when ever you learn a new skill it's easier to do it slow first then to do it fast.

When you first learn how to

- catch a basket ball (or base ball), did your opponent threw that ball to you in "slow speed"?
- swim in the river, did that river water slow down for you?

Why should TCMA training be any different? You need to adapt to the environment. You can't expect the environment to adapt to you.

The following clip is the normal training speed in my system. That training speed won't slow down for any beginners.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRZA6amKbf0&feature=youtu.be

[ShaolinDan]

When you first learn how to

- catch a basket ball (or base ball), did your opponent threw that ball to you in "slow speed"?
- swim in the river, did that river water slow down for you?

Why should TCMA training be any different? You need to adapt to the environment. You can't expect the environment to adapt to you.

The following clip is the normal training speed in my system. That training speed won't slow down for any beginners.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRZA6amKbf0&feature=youtu.be



Problem with this "Activity Stream" is seeing posts on threads I'd never open. :)

Yes, when learning to catch (or teaching someone to catch) you do throw the ball softer...haven't you ever played catch with a kid?

And yes, most people seek out shallow water with no current when learning to swim (or choosing somewhere for their kid to swim). :)

When it comes to MA, a lot of people may stay in the shallow water too long, but it's totally appropriate to start there.

[Sihing73]

I am reminded of an old story:

There is a person riding in a carriage on his way to an important meeting.
While the carriage driver is trying his best to move faster the coach is bouncing all over the road.
The rider calls out to the driver; "Slow down, slow down I'm in a hurry",

There is a time to move fast and a time to move slowly.
Sometimes one needs the wisdom to understand the difference.

In life, one can sometimes achieve more by taking a short break or stepping back from the task at hand.
This can allow you to approach from a new perspective.

[Jimbo]

I am reminded of an old story:

There is a person riding in a carriage on his way to an important meeting.
While the carriage driver is trying his best to move faster the coach is bouncing all over the road.
The rider calls out to the driver; "Slow down, slow down I'm in a hurry",

There is a time to move fast and a time to move slowly.
Sometimes one needs the wisdom to understand the difference.

In life, one can sometimes achieve more by taking a short break or stepping back from the task at hand.
This can allow you to approach from a new perspective.

This is a good point.

There have been a few occasions where, due to being injured, I was forced to slow my movements down. Normally, I train with full-speed. But in these instances, it was either lighten up and train slower, or not train at all. I also had to reduce the amount, or not train at all. And yes, it did help me to see things from another perspective. It also allowed me to recover back to training at speed a lot faster and more productively than not training at all because I temporarily couldn't move fast. If someone hasn't been in that type of situation before, I guess they're lucky.

Ordinarily, things should be done with speed. But IMO, if you see things from an all-or-nothing perspective, sometimes you might miss out on the big picture. There are also instances during the learning process where *briefly* slowing down the movements can eliminate bad habits/responses before they become ingrained.

[anerlich]

Why can't you meditate when you throw 200 punches on your heavy bag as fast you can and as hard as you can? Why do we have to define "meditation = slow move"?

The idea of "empty mind" is against the idea of "意气力(Yi Qi Li) - mind control breath, breath control force".

Meditation (as generally understood everywhere outside this thread) and skill/physical training are two different things.

Unless you want to get cute with definitions, meditation is used to make you aware of and eventually calm the internal mental chatter. This may have some carryover to improved performance in combat or other physical situations due to reduced susceptibility to distraction, self-doubt and other counterproductive thoughts and emotions.

Some people suggest you want to enter a meditative state when fighting or competing, but in my judgement those that do this have done little fighting, competing, or meditating. You do not want to be watching your breath or thoughts while fighting, your attention needs to be on what's happening externally.

There are a number of fairly good books written by professional soldiers who advocate meditation and other spiritual practices to become better warriors ("The Intuitive Warrior" being one), but none of them advocate mixing up meditation with their combat training and drills.

IMO learning or practicing effective breathing to improve your MA is different again from meditation.

[Sihing73]

IMHO the whole idea behind "meditation" or breathing is to develop ones mental focus.
With the proper focus one can attain a mental state that can make one very hard to deal with.

Another story I have heard is that of a Japanese Tea Master who unintentionally insults a Samurai.
He is challenged to a fight and goes to another Samurai to learn swordsmanship.
After training for a bit it is obvious the Tea Master will be killed, he is a bit upset by this fact.
The Samurai training him has him prepare tea. The Tea Master is so focused that his mind is like a laser.
The Samurai tells him to use this focus when he meets the other and to draw the sword and prepare to die.
The next day the other Samurai recognizes the Tea Masters resolve and withdraws.

Of course this is a paraphrase but I think you get the idea.
The question is how did the Tea Master develop the mindset and laser focus?
Was it by doing the steps of the tea ceremony fast or rather by doing them slowly with total concentration and focus on each step?

While certainly the tea ceremony has little to do with combat, the attributes trained, focus and discipline seem to have carried over............at least in the story. ;)

[stonecrusher69]

When you first learn how to

- catch a basket ball (or base ball), did your opponent threw that ball to you in "slow speed"?
- swim in the river, did that river water slow down for you?

Why should TCMA training be any different? You need to adapt to the environment. You can't expect the environment to adapt to you.

The following clip is the normal training speed in my system. That training speed won't slow down for any beginners.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRZA6amKbf0&feature=youtu.be

When I was a kid my dad used to throw the baseball to me. He throw it slow not 90 MPH to a 7 yr old. There are gradual steps you take when learning something new. Is this to difficult to understand.

[YouKnowWho]

There are gradual steps you take when learning something new. Is this to difficult to understand.

As far as I can remember, my long fist system has never used the "slow speed" training for beginner. One day I felt lazy. I did my long fist form in slow speed. My long fist teacher said, "If you don't feel like to work out, you should not work out. The long fist system should not be trained in slow speed".

Also the throwing art cannot be trained in "slow speed". When you throw your opponent over your head in slow speed, his head will land on the ground first because you didn't give his body a full rotation.

[Grumblegeezer]

...Also the throwing art cannot be trained in "slow speed". When you throw your opponent over your head in slow speed, his head will land on the ground first because you didn't give his body a full rotation.

I can't speak to your experience in long fist, but as for throwing arts, I definitely see your point. A throw must be done at appropriate speed to work. Still, when training beginners don't you break things down and walk through the steps involved to insure proper technique before actually performing your throws?

[YouKnowWho]

when training beginners don't you break things down and walk through the steps involved to insure proper technique before actually performing your throws?
My style of Shuai-Chiao is called "fast hand wrestling". The requirement of speed will be needed on day one.

For some throws that require "set up", you may slow down your "set up" but for your "finish move", you still need to go in full speed. Since some throw doesn't require any "set up" such as your opponent just use straight punch, or haymaker to hit your head, you have to spin and throw him. The whole training will be in full speed.

IMO, the beginner level "speed training" can be as important as the beginner level "correct technique training". I prefer my guys to have "lighting speed but not too perfect techniques" than to have "perfect technique with slow speed.

If lighting speed training can make you feel young, you should hang on it as long as you can.

[stonecrusher69]

As far as I can remember, my long fist system has never used the "slow speed" training for beginner. One day I felt lazy. I did my long fist form in slow speed. My long fist teacher said, "If you don't feel like to work out, you should not work out. The long fist system should not be trained in slow speed".

Also the throwing art cannot be trained in "slow speed". When you throw your opponent over your head in slow speed, his head will land on the ground first because you didn't give his body a full rotation.

I agree throwing can not be done slow,but punching and kicking can.

[anerlich]

IMHO the whole idea behind "meditation" or breathing is to develop ones mental focus.
With the proper focus one can attain a mental state that can make one very hard to deal with.

Another story I have heard is that of a Japanese Tea Master who unintentionally insults a Samurai.
He is challenged to a fight and goes to another Samurai to learn swordsmanship.
After training for a bit it is obvious the Tea Master will be killed, he is a bit upset by this fact.
The Samurai training him has him prepare tea. The Tea Master is so focused that his mind is like a laser.
The Samurai tells him to use this focus when he meets the other and to draw the sword and prepare to die.
The next day the other Samurai recognizes the Tea Masters resolve and withdraws.

Of course this is a paraphrase but I think you get the idea.
The question is how did the Tea Master develop the mindset and laser focus?
Was it by doing the steps of the tea ceremony fast or rather by doing them slowly with total concentration and focus on each step?

While certainly the tea ceremony has little to do with combat, the attributes trained, focus and discipline seem to have carried over............at least in the story. ;)

I've heard this story too. From memory, it's recounted in DT Suzuki's "Zen and Japanese Culture".

I have to wonder how many tea masters insulted Samurai and did not survive? ... as this is essentially anecdotal evidence, may be cherry picking to support a particular position, and ... may just be fiction.

Not trashing your story, just playing devil's advocate, I've been meditating daily seeking a similar mindset, but for other reasons as well.

I think i'll be sticking with WC and BJJ training rather than taking up tea making or ikebana. Miyamoto Musashi prided himself on pursuing a range of activities, calligraphy etc. for self development .... after he had notched up a body count high enough that no one else wanted to mess with him.

You can spar slow and light in jiu jitsu, though only if the other guy is prepared to flow as well. This can actually accelerate progress up to a point ... but if you don't "keep it real" at least some of the time, your defense gets sloppy. I wouldn't try to link this sort of thing and meditation, though.

The pity is that there few double-blind studies on this sort of thing, so no one is really talking from a base of evidence ;)

[Sihing73]

I've heard this story too. From memory, it's recounted in DT Suzuki's "Zen and Japanese Culture".

I have to wonder how many tea masters insulted Samurai and did not survive? ... as this is essentially anecdotal evidence, may be cherry picking to support a particular position, and ... may just be fiction.

Not trashing your story, just playing devil's advocate, I've been meditating daily seeking a similar mindset, but for other reasons as well.

I think i'll be sticking with WC and BJJ training rather than taking up tea making or ikebana. Miyamoto Musashi prided himself on pursuing a range of activities, calligraphy etc. for self development .... after he had notched up a body count high enough that no one else wanted to mess with him.

You can spar slow and light in jiu jitsu, though only if the other guy is prepared to flow as well. This can actually accelerate progress up to a point ... but if you don't "keep it real" at least some of the time, your defense gets sloppy. I wouldn't try to link this sort of thing and meditation, though.

The pity is that there few double-blind studies on this sort of thing, so no one is really talking from a base of evidence ;)

I agree that the story may only be used as a illustration and may, or may not be, based on an actual event. However, it is a nice story :D

So let us consider something that is known, or at least has been passed on;

1) Yip Man is said to have practiced the SNT slowly and is reported to have taken a good deal of time to perform it. I believe I heard somewhere that it could sometimes take up to 45 minutes. Of course, my info is second hand as I was not there. However, if true, it would indicate that he saw value in training the form slowly. Perhaps not every day but on some instances.

2) In Japanese arts you have "Do" arts which were the more refined or "sport" versions of their sister arts. Judo and Kendo for example. In the "Do" arts there is a "spiritual" element as well. What I am getting at is that an art like Judo is designed for self development as well as learning the art. Also, for Judo to work you must be able to connect with your opponent. In essence your throw will only work if you are in concert with the opponent. For example, to apply a throw when your opponent steps forward you must apply the correct amount of force, too much or too little and your throw will potentially fail. This implies a need for great sensitivity to the energy provided. Of course there are many factors involved in a good throw but disrupting balance is the keystone and to disrupt the balance one must be aware of the opponent and work with what they give you.

3) Many of the past masters recommended studying other things in order to achieve balance in life. Some, as you suggest, started such study after already assuring their reputation. However, many also felt that it was important to achieve such a balance not only for the art they trained but for life itself.

I have always been blessed with an attitude of "I don't care" so the idea of "Mushin" has always been of interest to me. Not claiming to have achieved this state, but will say it intrigues me and I would think that to attain it one would need something other than "fast" practice.

Of course, meditation is like anything else..............it is not the end all or goal...............just another piece of the pie.

Still, how many times have we heard sayings like; "it is not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"? Seems to me that there is an accepted agreement that combat requires a mental component. The question would seem to be how one develops that mental component. I would propose that meditation, slow training are one way of development. Then again, getting hit and learning to take punishment is another way. I will not speculate on which one is more effective or produces results faster.

[YouKnowWho]

he saw value in training the form slowly.
One day I asked my teacher, "What's lighting speed?" He said, "When you feel that your eyes balls are going to fly out of your eye sockets." I then asked him, "How do I develop it?" He said, "train it everyday and let your body to get used to it".

Why do we need to train MA? We will need to solve problems. What kind of problems do we need to solve? 90% of the time, it's just a fast speed full power punch toward our head. If that's the case, why don't we try to deal with fast powerful head punches 100 times daily? Is that the best way to train?

If we train

- slow then everything will look fast.
- fast then everything will look slow.

People may say that it's impossible to catch a fast jab. But if we try to catch fast jab 100 times daily, we will find that our successful ration of catching a fast jab will get better and better everyday. Soon that fast jab will no longer look fast any more.

[Sihing73]

One day I asked my teacher, "What's lighting speed?" He said, "When you feel that your eyes balls are going to fly out of your eye sockets."

Why do we need to train MA? We will need to solve problems. What kind of problems do we need to solve? 90% of the time, it's just a fast speed full power punch toward our head. If that's the case, why don't we try to deal with fast powerful head punches 100 times daily? Is that the best way to train?

If we train

- slow then everything will look fast.
- fast then everything will not look that fast any more.

People may say that it's impossible to catch a fast jab. But if we try to catch fast jab 100 times daily, we will find that our successful ration of catching a fast jab will get better and better everyday. Soon that fast jab will no longer look too fast. Our bodies will finally get used to that "lighting speed". When we have achieved that, everything will look slow after that.

Dude,

You are stuck in your POV and it is obvious nothing will change that.
To be unable or unwilling to look at another viewpoint is like a horse with Blinders on.
As I said before, we will have to agree to disagree.

Perhaps, if you trained in Wing Chun you may have a better perspective.
Then again, perhaps you do know more than Yip Man did, after all, you seem to think there is little to no value in moving slowly. Yet Yip Man did seem to see value in moving slowly. Then again, what did he know compared to someone who does not even train Wing Chun?

Oh, as to being unable to do a throw slowly, it would depend on the throw.
When I did Judo we regularly trained throws at varied speeds. Take a Hip throw for example, you can move in slowly and then balance the opponent right at the instant of the actual throw. You can even, in some cases of throws, complete the throw at less than full speed and do so safely. This is part of the reason for the grips taught, your grip and release can allow you to perform the throw and even "guide" the person thrown or "uke". In many instances the person performing the throw is responsible for guiding the person being thrown. Another reason for learning to be able to direct the person being thrown so that they cannot fall safely, or at least not as easily, in actual application for combat.

[YouKnowWho]

Perhaps, if you trained in Wing Chun you may have a better perspective. ...

I train WC too. This clip was taken back in 1973. that was 41 years ago. I don't train WC in slow speed either.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwK-H_djqQ8

[YouKnowWho]

When I did Judo we regularly trained throws at varied speeds.
When you

- do your own set up (such as hip throw), you can have the control of your own speed.
- respond to your opponent's punch (such as haymaker), your speed will need to be the same as his speed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEBctQJQmRA&feature=youtu.be

[Sihing73]

I train WC too. This clip was taken back in 1973. that was 41 years ago. I don't train WC in slow speed either.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwK-H_djqQ8

As I said, we will agree to disagree.
Maybe you could explain why Yip Man is said to have trained SNT slowly? Or did he just not know as much as you?

I am curious as to your lineage, since that seems to be something many ask about.
Who did or do you train WC with and for how long?
I took Shotokan for a short time back in the day but would not say I "trained" it as the time was short.
However, I did earn a Black Belt in Judo when I was 16, however that was a number of years ago and it would be unfair for me to say I "train" Judo as well since that was back in the 70's as well.

[YouKnowWho]

Who did or do you train WC with and for how long?

I learned WC from 3 Yeh Man students, Jimmy Kao, Jeffery Law, and Alice Law. The time frame was about 2 years. WC is one of my cross training system. Do I still train the WC system? No! Do I use the WC principles? Yes! In the following "rhino strategy", you can see the application of the WC center line theory and double Tan Shou strategy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Msc_oOaTr7Y

[Sihing73]

Do I still train the WC system? No! Do I use the WC principles? Yes! In the following "rhino strategy", you can see the application of the WC center line theory and double Tan Shou strategy.

Hmm, Rhino Strategy is that anything like the 1840 something DNA or Snake Engine proposed by someone else?? :eek:
Sorry, just kidding and having a little bit of fun.

Could you provide an answer to the question I asked about why Yip Man would seem to advocate slow training if it is of no value?

[YouKnowWho]

Hmm, Rhino Strategy is that anything like the 1840 something DNA or Snake Engine proposed by someone else?? :eek:
Sorry, just kidding and having a little bit of fun.

Could you provide an answer to the question I asked about why Yip Man would seem to advocate slow training if it is of no value?
I created the "rhino" strategy, "octopus" strategy, and "double spears" strategy myself. I will test it in combat against other systems as much I can for the next 10 years. It has no history, no DNA, no engine, no force vector, no style. Anybody can use those strategies. Trying to be the "bridge" between the striking art and the grappling art is my main interest at this point of my life. The word "style" has no meaning to me at all.

IMO, slow training can be good for health. Some people's physical shape are not in good condition, or old age, the speed training may be difficult for them. Again I don't think we should mix "combat" training and "health" training.

The word "speed" is a relative term. It's not an absolute term.

- Running is better than walking,
- Walking is better than standing,
- Standing is better than sitting,
- Sitting is better than lying down,
- Lying down is better than to be dead.

There is a big space between "running" and "to be dead".

[Sihing73]

All Taiji people train slow. I have no intention to change their mind. If we all agree with the OP point of view, there won't be any discussion for this subject.

Are you and Hendrick related?? :eek: :D

I asked a question concerning Yip Man and his view of a WC form on a WC forum. I do not recall mentioning or asking about Tai Chi.
Are you simply unable or unwilling to answer the question? I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, it may be the reverse, but why not just answer the question? Unless of course you simply do not know? :rolleyes:
Should that be the case, you do not know or cannot see any benefit in slow training then you have stated your point and there is really no reason for you to keep saying it over and over again. :) Just mho

[YouKnowWho]

Are you and Hendrick related?? :eek: :D

I asked a question concerning Yip Man and his view of a WC form on a WC forum. I do not recall mentioning or asking about Tai Chi.
Are you simply unable or unwilling to answer the question? I am not saying I am right and you are wrong, it may be the reverse, but why not just answer the question? Unless of course you simply do not know? :rolleyes:
Should that be the case, you do not know or cannot see any benefit in slow training then you have stated your point and there is really no reason for you to keep saying it over and over again. :) Just mho
After I have put up my post, I always try to fix my spelling error and grammar error. When I do that, your next post already come in. I will never avoid questions.

All TCMA can be trained in 3 different ways:

1. combat - punch out fast, pull back fast,
2. health - punch out slow (easy on the elbow joint), pull back fast.
3. performance - punch out fast, freeze there before pull back that punch.

When you train the XingYi system for "health", you will

- punch out slow with slow inhale,
- pull back fast with fast exhale.

Here is the XingYi "health training" method in Chinese - punch out slow with slow inhale, pull back fast with fast exhale".

9162

The "health" training is completely opposite the "combat" training. Some time people may be confused about using

- health training in combat,
- performance training in combat.

When you learn a TCMA system from a teacher when he is old, sometime you may not know what he teaches you is "combat training" or "health training".

[Sihing73]

After I have put up my post, I always try to fix my spelling error and grammar error. When I do that, your next post already come in. I will never avoid questions.

When you train the XingYi system for "health", you will

- punch out slow with slow inhale,
- pull back fast with fast exhale.

When you learn a TCMA system from a teacher when he is old, sometime you may not know what he teaches you is "combat training" or "health training".

I happen to train in Hsing Yi as well and I can say I do not train as you suggest.
First off, it is usually better to exhale while striking.
Also, the Five Fists themselves are both "combat" and "healthy" in their form and application.
In other words the Five Fists have a twofold benefit of being both healthy and combat effective regardless of how you do them, fast or slow both have the benefit of developing both aspects.

What is your Hsing Yi training consisting of?

So, what I am taking from your reply is that Yip Man trained or taught the SNT slowly because he was old and no longer capable of combat......is this correct?

So my question to you is simply this: Is there any benefit to training the SNT slowly? Whether for health or not. Can training slowly for health also have any benefit or carry over for combat? I am seeking a direct answer as it relates to the SNT taught in WC, not Tai Chi, Hsing Yi or any other art.

[YouKnowWho]

I asked a question concerning Yip Man and his view of a WC form on a WC forum. ...Are you simply unable or unwilling to answer the question?

So my question to you is simply this: Is there any benefit to training the SNT slowly? Whether for health or not. Can training slowly for health also have any benefit or carry over for combat?
My direct answer to your question is:

To train SNT slow has "health" benefit. If you have good health, it can help you in combat.

but I also want to say:

To train SNT fast has more "health" benefit. If you have better health, it can help you more in combat.

I believe in fast training. You believe in slow training. It's like I'm a Christian and you are a Muslim. When a Muslim asks a Christian why does a Christian think a Muslim believe in Islam? what kind of answer do you expect to get?

It has nothing to do with "unable" or "unwilling". Can a Christian be able to answer a Muslim why Muslim believe in Islam? I don't think so. The reason is simple. Since that Christian doesn't not believe in Islam, he won't be able to understand why Muslim believe in Islam either.

[Sihing73]

I believe in fast training. You believe in slow training. It's like I'm a Christian and you are a Muslim. When a Muslim asks a Christian why does a Christian think a Muslim believe in Islam? what kind of answer do you expect to get?

It has nothing to do with "unable" or "unwilling". Can a Christian be able to answer a Muslim why Muslim believe in Islam? I don't think so. The reason is simple. Since that Christian doesn't not believe in Islam, he won't be able to understand why Muslim believe in Islam either.


You are presenting a strawman argument.
I happen to have Muslim friends and I am a Christian.
My Pekiti Tirsia Guru is Muslim and we have had some very interesting conversations about religion.

But never mind, I can see you will not be able to answer the question because you simply do not know.

When I spar or fight it is done fast, when I do Silat it is done fast.
When I train internally it is usually done slow, sometimes fast but mostly slow.
The two aspects or methods are parts of the same pie.

I wish you luck in your training and maybe one day things will cease to be so one dimensional for you.

[YouKnowWho]

I can see you will not be able to answer the question because you simply do not know.
Finally we have come up with some agreement here. You are absolute right that "I simply do not know why people like to train slow" and "I will not be able to answer that question".

[anerlich]

I agree that the story may only be used as a illustration and may, or may not be, based on an actual event. However, it is a nice story :D

So let us consider something that is known, or at least has been passed on;

1) Yip Man is said to have practiced the SNT slowly and is reported to have taken a good deal of time to perform it. I believe I heard somewhere that it could sometimes take up to 45 minutes. Of course, my info is second hand as I was not there. However, if true, it would indicate that he saw value in training the form slowly. Perhaps not every day but on some instances.

2) In Japanese arts you have "Do" arts which were the more refined or "sport" versions of their sister arts. Judo and Kendo for example. In the "Do" arts there is a "spiritual" element as well. What I am getting at is that an art like Judo is designed for self development as well as learning the art. Also, for Judo to work you must be able to connect with your opponent. In essence your throw will only work if you are in concert with the opponent. For example, to apply a throw when your opponent steps forward you must apply the correct amount of force, too much or too little and your throw will potentially fail. This implies a need for great sensitivity to the energy provided. Of course there are many factors involved in a good throw but disrupting balance is the keystone and to disrupt the balance one must be aware of the opponent and work with what they give you.

3) Many of the past masters recommended studying other things in order to achieve balance in life. Some, as you suggest, started such study after already assuring their reputation. However, many also felt that it was important to achieve such a balance not only for the art they trained but for life itself.

I have always been blessed with an attitude of "I don't care" so the idea of "Mushin" has always been of interest to me. Not claiming to have achieved this state, but will say it intrigues me and I would think that to attain it one would need something other than "fast" practice.

Of course, meditation is like anything else..............it is not the end all or goal...............just another piece of the pie.

Still, how many times have we heard sayings like; "it is not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"? Seems to me that there is an accepted agreement that combat requires a mental component. The question would seem to be how one develops that mental component. I would propose that meditation, slow training are one way of development. Then again, getting hit and learning to take punishment is another way. I will not speculate on which one is more effective or produces results faster.

Agree it is a nice story. Who knows, it might even be true.

I agree there's way more to life than beating lots of people in fights.

I agree on avoiding speculation about methods ... what is needed to settle such arguments is evidence over a wide sample size.

Dare I suggest that there are variety of approaches to competence, and that different folks may do better with different approaches? That competence may mean different things to different people? Even if something works sensationally well for you, that it may not for a majority, or even a minority, of your students?

[Sihing73]

Dare I suggest that there are variety of approaches to competence, and that different folks may do better with different approaches? That competence may mean different things to different people? Even if something works sensationally well for you, that it may not for a majority, or even a minority, of your students?

Sounds like a good approach.
Perhaps this is why there are so many variations of "systems" that come from the same root.
We may train together and learn the same things, but due to physical or mental differences reach different ends.

[stonecrusher69]

Hmm, Rhino Strategy is that anything like the 1840 something DNA or Snake Engine proposed by someone else?? :eek:
Sorry, just kidding and having a little bit of fun.

Could you provide an answer to the question I asked about why Yip Man would seem to advocate slow training if it is of no value?

Not just Ip Man but every Wing Chun sifu I new did SLT very slowly. Up to 1 hr.

[Charles S]

When you first learn how to

- catch a basket ball (or base ball), did your opponent threw that ball to you in "slow speed"?
- swim in the river, did that river water slow down for you?

Why should TCMA training be any different? You need to adapt to the environment. You can't expect the environment to adapt to you.

The following clip is the normal training speed in my system. That training speed won't slow down for any beginners.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRZA6amKbf0&feature=youtu.be


Hopefully when you learned how to catch, Randy Johnson wasn't throwing at you. And this isn't Sparta, I hope the taught you to swim in the mellow pool, shallow and smooth. That said, if you're a man, and you want to learn to fight, you shouldn't limit yourself to slow training for very long. If you train hard and fast, you will get better at hard and fast training. If you want to be good and mental focus and imagination power,( I think I can), then slow, deliberate concentration can help. People at the Olympic level of almost anything work on mental strength and mental rehersal. I think it helps me.

[Faux Newbie]

I've heard this story too. From memory, it's recounted in DT Suzuki's "Zen and Japanese Culture".

I have to wonder how many tea masters insulted Samurai and did not survive? ... as this is essentially anecdotal evidence, may be cherry picking to support a particular position, and ... may just be fiction.

Not trashing your story, just playing devil's advocate, I've been meditating daily seeking a similar mindset, but for other reasons as well.

I think i'll be sticking with WC and BJJ training rather than taking up tea making or ikebana. Miyamoto Musashi prided himself on pursuing a range of activities, calligraphy etc. for self development .... after he had notched up a body count high enough that no one else wanted to mess with him.

You can spar slow and light in jiu jitsu, though only if the other guy is prepared to flow as well. This can actually accelerate progress up to a point ... but if you don't "keep it real" at least some of the time, your defense gets sloppy. I wouldn't try to link this sort of thing and meditation, though.

The pity is that there few double-blind studies on this sort of thing, so no one is really talking from a base of evidence ;)

Good post. One thing I will add is that, in China at least, meditation in none of the major disciplines is an end to itself, nor are its results. You meditate to quiet the mind, but a quiet mind is not an end to itself, one could just as easily become a quiet monster. Contemplation and meditation are always paired in Chinese disciplines, quiet the mind to observe and understand, observing and understanding, one does less that disturbs the mind. Counting breaths is only to quiet, eventually one is supposed to be quiet enough to contemplate, not count breaths.

I can see going slow for reasons of body mechanics, honing them, but only if one also trains fast, otherwise one might tailor the body mechanics to conditions where the kinetic energy of motion does not play out identically. By also doing it fast, one makes certain not to train unrealistically. Same with training the same things live.

I can see the value of quieting the mind in training in order to observe the results of motion, and then contemplating the motion. In fighting, I can see the value of not letting one's ideas get in the way of seeing the fight that is before one. But in fighting, it's really not the time to count breaths, but counting breaths isn't meditation or contemplation, it's a gateway to meditation, nothing more.

Anyway, good post.

[Faux Newbie]

Also, if you throw a ball Yang style taiji slow, you have not thrown a ball, you have dropped it. This is not to argue that there is no value to slow practice, I think there is as long as it is always paired with practice at speed, but the danger of slow practice is that it allows some things to happen that cannot happen at speed, and does not fully allow some things to happen that only happen at speed. It should inform footwork transitions, but some fundamental steps that are necessary in all fighting are almost never used in slow practice for this reason. By slower loading of weightedness from step to step, one necessarily accepts a duration of tension in one leg or the other that, at speed, is simply loading and unloading, not at all a show of stance.

The comparison to throwing does not work, because no one throws a ball taiji slow. Ever. Throwing always involves a compression that comes from progressive building up of force, taiji slow does not. Without that, there is no throwing.

Doing strikes slow is more about linking than about power. Linking is helpful to power, but a practice that teaches linking is not having power, it is the result you are looking for. Practicing linking and practicing actual usage are necessary. One can link very well in form and not be able to apply that against someone who does not link superbly, but can apply. One can learn linking without slow work, one cannot learn application without working at speed. Especially throws, qinnas, strikes, etc.

[Vajramusti]

Only the first section of the sil lim tao is done slowly- not the whole form.
the slowness helps develop awareness and intent in controlling the tan, huen,
fok and bong motions- with minimal local muscle tension- and with awareness of
bone and joint alignments and orientation towards target.
Practice makes the principles of motion second nature so they can be applied
in diverse ways

[Faux Newbie]

Only the first section of the sil lim tao is done slowly- not the whole form.
the slowness helps develop awareness and intent in controlling the tan, huen,
fok and bong motions- with minimal local muscle tension- and with awareness of
bone and joint alignments and orientation towards target.
Practice makes the principles of motion second nature so they can be applied
in diverse ways

I can understand this. It is sensible. The fact that other sections are done at speed also gets around the issues I was getting at, namely that speed tends to reveal weaknesses in ability to link by way of failure or balance issues once more substantial energy is added.

To illustrate, one can have a washing machine whose spin cycle seems perfect with smaller loads. Once a full load is added, it can be revealed that you need to fix your washing machine because it is not really balanced. Taking it apart then reveals that they no longer want you to be able to fix the **** thing!

**** planned obsolescence!

[PalmStriker]

:) Here's a spin you'll all enjoy for developing that internal energy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NpyyWlCUpE

[Vajramusti]

:) Here's a spin you'll all enjoy for developing that internal energy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NpyyWlCUpE------------



IMo- don't need taichi to develop wing chun