why bjj wouldn't work on the streets of new york! [Archive]

Chang Style Novice

11-22-2001, 08:15 PM

Water Dragon is correct. Furthermore, before you can expect rational replies to your topic, you should learn to break up your question into grammatical sentences. It won't hurt to utilize appropriate capitalization, correct spelling, and non-trolling topics.

Here's how (except for the non-trolling topics)

"First of all, let's state the obvious; there's too much debris for ground fighting. Secondly, New York street thugs roll in packs, so while you're trying to choke the other guy out his five buddies are stomping the hell out of you. So, all you bjj guys who say your style is the best simply because it works in the ring had better look at it in another environment."

I grade this effort an F overall. In addition to the writing issues already mentioned, your argument is a straw man. This means that no-one except for trolls claims bjj is invincible or the best option for fighting in all situations.

Please see me after class, to arrange a parent teacher conference. I'm very worried about your academic progress.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

Ryu

11-22-2001, 08:18 PM

Bo-oring!

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg

"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

Starchaser107

11-22-2001, 08:19 PM

Everybody knows that Ney Yorkers love thier Gun-Fu
(click, click)
what are you talking about?

"everything is everything"

Chang Style Novice

11-22-2001, 08:20 PM

Ryu is correct.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

Water Dragon

11-22-2001, 08:21 PM

Is anyone else here continually amazed at the numerous people here on the board who can obviously handle groups of thugz with apparent ease?

Mr. Nemo

11-22-2001, 08:23 PM

Doug Maverick:

According to your profile, you registered in october of 2000, which means you've been here for over a year. So, there's no excuse for not ever having noticed the ten zillion other people who have made this point before you.

Chang Style Novice

11-22-2001, 08:26 PM

I've never had any problems with groups of thugz, Water Dragon. But then, I live in a relatively nice part of town and don't go looking for trouble. One time a few years ago I was downtown when a bunch of rowdy fratboys started harassing an attractive young woman with 'alternative' fashion. I was with a friend at the time, and we both removed our glasses and approached saying something like 'Can't you see she wants to be left alone?' In no time, a group of passers-by had gathered saying things like 'yeah!' 'Go make trouble somewhere else.' The idiots laughed and made tracks. That's as close as I've ever gotten to multiple opponents or a streetfight, and as close as I ever care to get, honestly. I imagine most folks on here are no different, just a few like to have fun trolling.

_______________________
I am the Grand Ultimate Silk Pyjama

Water Dragon

11-22-2001, 08:29 PM

Naw, I think some people really believe it's a cake walk. Multiple opponents are no joke. I had three guys put me in the hospital once. People can hurt you bad if they want to.

Kristoffer

11-22-2001, 08:41 PM

" why bjj wouldn't work on the streets of new york!"

-cause grappling VS colapsing buildings would not work! :D
sorry if anyone is offended by this bad, bad joke. :rolleyes:

~K~
"maybe not in combat.. but think of the chicks man, the chicks!" -- someone on the subject of back-flips in combat --

chen zhen

11-22-2001, 09:29 PM

F*ck you!
you morbid pr*ck!

apoweyn

11-22-2001, 09:45 PM

well, doug, there you have it. unless you can prove that you're infinitely better at handling mobs of street thugs than is BJJ, you're really just making an arse of yourself.

i know where i'm putting my money.

stuart b.

old jong

11-22-2001, 09:49 PM

I remember reading a story about Ron Van Clief (Is it his name?... The old guy who was beatten by Royce Gracie in one of the first UFC) It was said that he once defeated 5 or 6 guys at the same time in a street fight in New York...It was in the late sixties or early seventies. He was a karate guy! He still is,I dont know!

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

old jong

11-22-2001, 10:01 PM

BTW, Defending against a gang of thugs is surely not funny business and this count for anybody.It is the only true "ultimate" test someone could face with his fighting art.You can be lucky,or unlucky.That's it.

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

Ralek

11-22-2001, 10:03 PM

Old Jong!! Von Clief is a puss y. He can beat 5 guys at the same time but he can't even handle one brazilian jiujitsu fighter who wieghs 40 pounds less than him?

Maybe he was attacked by 5 kung fu guys? I could understand that. Kung fu guys totally cannot fight.

Brazilian jiujitsu is superior.

old jong

11-22-2001, 10:24 PM

Hey creep! I thought you where gone?...
Anyway, he was not 56 when that thing happened! Long before Royce was just a h0rny look in his father eyes!

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

old jong

11-22-2001, 10:28 PM

Remember THIS? ....Rolls? (http://forum.kungfuonline.com/1/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=126197291&f=340190991&m=4311929933)

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

SantaClaus

11-22-2001, 10:40 PM

Seems that karate is the best for multiple opponents. The only guys I have heard about taking on multiple opoonents have been karateka's. Or course maybe its cuz their arent that many kung fu guys. I don't know. Seems like simple striking would be the best, chin na would be a ***** and shaui chiao is cool because you can throw one guy into another.

Still, anybody hear of kung fu guys in the US, taking on lots of bad guys?

Xebsball

11-22-2001, 10:55 PM

HEY!!!! I tought the old Ralek was gonna and the improved one Ralek. would stay. WTF? Get out you ****in **********!

----------------------------
When you are surrounded by kids, enlighten them with Bruce Lee quotes.
They will love you and honor you for that.

qimaster

11-22-2001, 10:59 PM

and a coward

Kristoffer

11-22-2001, 11:03 PM

The only morbid in `ere is yo MAMA
~din morsa på en fredakväll~ = :eek:

~K~
"maybe not in combat.. but think of the chicks man, the chicks!" -- someone on the subject of back-flips in combat --

Kristoffer

11-22-2001, 11:07 PM

on the subject,,
I know of kungfu people over here in sthlm that has taken out more than 2 opponents at once. It is not so unusually as u may think.

~K~
"maybe not in combat.. but think of the chicks man, the chicks!" -- someone on the subject of back-flips in combat --

shinwa

11-22-2001, 11:34 PM

I beat 3 skinheads once when I was 17. Son of a biscuit threw a brick at me too. It wasn't as difficult as you'd probably imagin and I'd seriously have more trouble beating one skilled martial artist wh knows how to defend, knows how to punch, someone who;s seen the moves before. You know what I mean, untrained people are chumps 80% of the time(my experience and I grew up in a ghetto). But don't underestimate because some of those *******s hit hard.

blaktiger

11-23-2001, 03:00 AM

old jong

I related that story myself to Ra-pr*ck (who broke his promise, no less) a few months ago. Ron actually was confronted by 6 guys in a bar.

They followed him outside, and Ron knocked three of them out. The other three *****ed out (sorta like Ralek promised he would).

Hey Ralek, since you are still here, let me remind you that Ron is almost 60 years old, and was in his middle 50's when he fought the object of your obsession, Mr. Gracie. And it still took him over three minutes to do it. Don't tell me he was toying with an old man, if he had something to prove way back then, why didn't he end the match in seconds?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I'll be too busy lookin' good!"

MartialKnight

11-23-2001, 03:26 AM

bjj wouldn't work well on the street in my opinon. I mean who would wanto roll around on the ground in pis-s? Plus in UFC and shizz it is outlawed to bite, pinch, scratch, pull hair, etc. which is what someone would do to you, if you tried to put him into a hold on the ground in a street fight.

Also, by the time you got a grasp on a skilled boxer/martial artist, your face/body/legs/etc. might be pounsed or you might get knocked out. There are also the neck strikes. How can you grab a super quick hitter/puncher that has great footwork?

jimmy23

11-23-2001, 03:46 AM

"How can you grab a super quick hitter/puncher that has great footwork"

happens all the time, if hes a super quick hitter puncher with great footwork, youd really BETTER get him off his feet or he'll beat the dog poo out of you.

"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

shinwa

11-23-2001, 04:13 AM

I definitely wouldnt wanna be in this position on the concrete. anyway you slice it, that's pretty nasty. The mats make one helluva difference.

http://sherdog.com/interviews/sinosic2/sinosic_03.jpg

jimmy23

11-23-2001, 05:22 AM

would you rather be Royce,who would have some scrapes, or DeLeucia, who would have a broken arm?

I cant understand these guys who think that a nasty scrape, or even a cut, will end a fight, but ignore the damage youll take from stikes. Even if you win, chances are that youre going to take some damage.

"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

old jong

11-23-2001, 05:32 AM

You do what you have to do to defend yourself. If it means you put your face in sh1t...Does'nt matter to me.It is the price of victory!

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

jimmy23

11-23-2001, 05:35 AM

lol, lets hope it doesnt come to that!

"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

Merryprankster

11-23-2001, 05:43 AM

Gotta go with Jimmy23 on this one shinwa...much rather have some cuts and bruises than a dislocated elbow.

Xebsball

11-23-2001, 05:53 AM

i prefer the elbow, i'm different, so what you got a problem

----------------------------
When you are surrounded by kids, enlighten them with Bruce Lee quotes.
They will love you and honor you for that.

Merryprankster

11-23-2001, 05:55 AM

Hey bud, whatever floats your boat!

Kevin

11-23-2001, 05:55 AM

I agree, its better to take one down and strangle the fight out of him. Let them clobber you, unless they're armed, in which case your dead anyway. After the first one if out, take down the next out*

*Choke and repeat as necessary

Jujutsu, Ninpo, Chugoku Kenpo

Xebsball

11-23-2001, 05:59 AM

I think i'll use this quote:
"You brake my elbow i put your face in ****! HA HA HA, how about that, huh!?!"

----------------------------
When you are surrounded by kids, enlighten them with Bruce Lee quotes.
They will love you and honor you for that.

Merryprankster

11-23-2001, 06:06 AM

You're KILLING ME!! :D

shinwa

11-23-2001, 06:16 AM

dude if that was cement he'd probably be facially scared for life when he could have just as easily kicked the guy in the kneecap or the testicles and then got the hell out of dodge. If you HAVE to take the guy to the ground sure, go ahead. But willingly saying "hey i'll permanetly damage my face so i can hurt this guys ELBOW" is stupidity. Let alone Deluci could bite him and give him aids or some crud, his buddy could kick the shizat out of Royces pearly whites, and well. I think it's kind of stupid to go after a guys elbow in a fight. I mean why do you have to go all the way to the ground to hurt a guys freaking elbow? That's insane. Just block his punch inside the wrist, outside the elbow and you have the same effect. And your face isn't screwed because of it. Because you best believe while your face is down there like that you're gonna get dragged.

I'm sorry but that choke one and then repeat on the other is one of the most ridiculous strategies I've ever heard. You're gonn lye on the ground choking a guy while his friends kick you in the side neck head and other areas? NO! Just hit em where it hurts and then split if possible. Trying to be a He Man is gonna get ya seriously hurt.

jimmy23

11-23-2001, 06:24 AM

how do you know he could have got to Deleucias kneecap or nads? Have you ever taken damage during a fight? Rare is the time that youll take "permanent damage" from facial scrapes.

And, you get an elbow blown out, your out of the fight, period, its as painful as a blown knee.

"Just block his punch inside the wrist, outside the elbow and you have the same effect"
No it doesnt, and that tells me all I need to know about your experince in fights.

You are either a foolish boy or a troll, or both.

"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

nobody

11-23-2001, 06:31 AM

why dont you guys just open your fly and measure your d!cks already! :p

jimmy23

11-23-2001, 06:32 AM

uh, cus mines too big, yea thats it, I dont want to show off *runs away really fast*

"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

shinwa

11-23-2001, 06:44 AM

lol blocking inside the wrist outside the elbow is an armbreaker. Some call it a butterfly block.

I wasn't talking about Delucia. That's a sporting event of course Royce shouldn't kick him in the kneecaps, not to mentioned he's an experienced martial artist so he'll more than likely know how to react to a sidekick targeted at his kneecaps :rolleyes: A blown elbow may hurt but it's nowhere near as debilitating as a blown knee. Take a mans kneecap, that man can't stand. take his arm he has another to hit you with. It's pretty common for fighters to continue fighting with a broken wrist, broken arm etc etc. Look what happened to Royce when his shin was broken. Took the fight right outta him, so no they aren't the same thing.

No fighting experience? That's funny. It's real easy to label me as troll or a foolish boy instead of dealing with what I'm saying in an actual adult manner huh? If you must know I'm 24, come next month I'll have 19 years experience in the martial arts and fighting in general. So if you really believe in the philosophy of "choking one and then choking the other", I think that tells me about your experience in fighting. Sounds like very little, but if I'm wrong and that works for you more power to ya. But as far as I know, it's foolish to rely on techniques that put you in more danger than necessary. But according to you, Im just a boy, so pay me no mind jimmy.

jimmy23

11-23-2001, 06:54 AM

actually I did respond to what you posted. If you think a
butterfly block will be successful as often as a technicque that puts the whole bodys strength(arms, torso, back and legs) into the break, well, youre just wrong, I cant say it anymore diplomatically than that. I wonder how many times youve seen the butterfly block really work, personally Ive seen arm bars work more times than I can count.

I never said anything about choking one than the other, I dont know what gave you that impression.

I dont know what "fighting experience in general " is, your profile isnt very enlightening. Ive had a good deal of "street experience" , more than most martial artists. So, if i seem sure about certain things, its a result of what ive seen and done.

"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

shinwa

11-23-2001, 07:04 AM

heh I haven't seen butterfly blocks or armbars in street fights. Doesn't mean they don't work. Kicks to the knees? Seen those quite often. Standing armlocks? Seen those often as well.

general fighting experience, like I said before I grew up in a pretty tough neighborhood so fighting is a normal thing to me heh heh. Not that i look for fights, but when I was younger I was in quite a few. Yah I've been in maybe 4 fights involving multiple attackers (Big neighborhood vs neighborhood fights and what have you). Once when i was alone I had the crap kicked out of me by four guys. didn't get to use stand up fighting or groundfighting. Kicked me in the balls, hit my throat and kicked me in the balls a couple more times. 4 dudes and it happened quick. Which is why I prefer the quick and to the point approach. Nine times out of ten it works.

jimmy23

11-23-2001, 07:07 AM

cant argue with that

"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

Kevin

11-23-2001, 10:26 AM

I was joking about that choke/repeat thing. My point is, a punch to the head hurts, a kick to the head hurts worse, and a hyperextended elbow is excruciatingly unbearable.

Jujutsu, Ninpo, Chugoku Kenpo

Ryu

11-23-2001, 10:38 AM

More fighting?
A bodhisattva's work is never done... :(

:D jk.

I like kicking to the kneecap, and I like armlocks as well. They both work on the street. Grappling is a must, and functional striking is a must. I've fought on the ground before on cement two times, once in a parking lot, and the other in the backroom of a storage area. It doesn't hurt, and my face wasn't mashed. The one in the parking lot was with two guys. But I've also kicked guys in the knees before, and it works fine too. Both are good. Good job. :)
Though I don't think I'm confident enough with more advanced subs, so I'd rather put a basic one on, or just ground and pound.

Or maybe pin him down and tell him to stop. :)
I've done that too, and it worked.

Stop fighting. :D
Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg

"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

MartialKnight

11-23-2001, 06:44 PM

Are you trying to imply that Gracie would kick Tyson's a@@ (as an example of a striker)?

Seriously though, in UFC the rules are designed to favour the grappling arts over all other martial arts that employ strikes to vital areas (and kung fu has a library of information about this kind of fighting).No pressure points, no eye strikes, no kicking while they are down??? What's next, no qi allowed?
nhb is not really nhb at all, more like no holds barred from the techniques available to wrestlers and bjj, gjj. besides all that, these events are akin to the silly testosterone fueled bouts of the pro wrestlers of the wwf, wcw and nitro and their ilk.

8 step praying Mantis has grappling in it, as alot of other Kung Fu styles.

It's called Low Mantis, it is fighting from a fallen position , usually taping or locking the legs to pull oppnents to the ground then they follow up with a joint lock or a submission technique!
BTW, ever heard of Chi'n Na?

I heard that in Ultimate Fighting Championship #6 in Buffalo N.Y, Joel Sutton (studies this 8 step praying Mantis) Beat the helll out of a 300 Lbs guy, the bloodiest U.F.C fight in history, and split his head open with low Mantis and even had the 8 step shirt on.

BTW here is what else I read on Gracie:

"Gracie Jiu-Jitsu along with the Gracie dynasty was destroyed by a mere Japanese Pro-Wrestler by the name of Kazushi Sakuraba, he went through the top guys of the Gracie Family like nothing (besides Rickson Gracie because he dosn't want to tarnish the family name further more) Also Sakuraba made non-believers believers that Gracie Jiu-Jitsu has many flaws"

here is more:

"The whole statement saying BJJ fighters dominating events like UFC and Pride is ridiculous really, from 1997-2000 some of the top BJJ fighters fell victim to Sakuraba in Pride and it changed everyones opinion on BJJ. 10 prominant BJJ fighters to be exact like Royce Gracie, Renzo Gracie, Ryan Gracie, Royler Gracie, Vitor Belfort, Anthony Macias, Ebenezer Braga, Carlos Newton, Conan Silvera. I don't know about some people but Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is played out at least Helio's side that is, Royce refuses to grow with the times and still thinks it's the early 90's and stuck where he's at, the BJJ community considers him only in the blue belt class now, and if people think he's all that the last time I saw Royce Trying to prove himself in a full Sport Jiu-Jitsu tournament, he was out on the floor unconcious after Wallid Ismail choked him out."

jimmy23

11-23-2001, 07:31 PM

ok, one more time.

In vale tudo, there are 2 rules, no biting, no eye gouging. As anyone can eye gouge or bite, I dont see these as incredibly restricive to gung fu stylists. For the record, gung fu stylists have never done well in vale tudo. Make of this what you will, but theyve beem doing vale tudo for 75 years in Brasil.

"Gracie Jiu-Jitsu along with the Gracie dynasty was destroyed by a mere Japanese Pro-Wrestler by the name of Kazushi Sakuraba,"

Gracie fighters still compete at the highest levels in MMA, Sakuraba was on a tear and beat everyone he fought for awhile. In fact, the only person to beat Sak , recently, (two times in a row) has been a thai boxer by the name of Vanderlai Silva. Maybe that means that thai boxing is the only good style, eh?

I wouldnt expect gracie to beat Tyson, its hard to say. I have no doubt that Randy Couture or Rodrigo Noguera (both in his weight class)would dominate him though. Tyson is really a bad example for a boxer vs MMA though, as he has terrible balance. Watch when Holyfield (and earlier, Buster Douglas) fought Tyson, they met Mike head on and forced him back. When a boxer moves back, hes supposed to lower his weight and keep his head down(for defensive purposes, to keep covered up). Tyson does the opposite, his head pops right up, and both fighters nailed him repeatedly when this happened.

I dont think Mike could handle a fighter with a real good shoot, because of this fundamental flaw.

"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

Wongsifu

11-23-2001, 08:15 PM

i promised myself i wouldnt read this thread , but i did, "yawn"

If its not bruce lee or the ufc and kung fu problem its bjj and strikers."yawn"

I think i'll go and set my pubic hair on fire and rub tiger balm into my balls.
its more interesting to view my reaction in the mirror than listen to anymore of this crud

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

Ryu

11-23-2001, 08:30 PM

Jimmy,
Save your breath, man. I don't think I've ever heard anyone call Sak "mere" before...how insulting.

:rolleyes:

Ryu

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg

"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

Archangel

11-23-2001, 08:56 PM

Joel Sutton
Hometown: Grand Island/Buffalo, New York - USA
Styles: PRAYING MANTIS KUNG-FU, Freestyle Wrestling, Russian Sambo, Judo, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Muay Thai, Karate
Height: 5’11"
Weight: 205 lbs.
Weight Range: 199-210 lbs.
Date of Birth: July 7, 1969
Big Wins: Has beaten Jack McGlaughlin and Geza Kahlman Jr. at UFC.
Disapointments: Has lost to Brad Kohler. Lost a submission wrestling match to Larry Parker

Judging by his list of styles it doesn't seem that Joel was convinced that his Kung Fu was enough. I saw that match and believe me it was his wrestling and BJJ that saved him.

Merryprankster

11-23-2001, 11:28 PM

LOL at Wongsifu's tigerbalmed sacs!

LOL for an entirely different reason at Martial Knight....

Look, the other guys pretty much covered it, but ALL the weapons available to other striking ring sports, and in fact, a few MORE are available in the MMA events. That favors strikers.

The fact that the place has mats FAVORS strikers. Good hard Takedowns would otherwise be fight enders.

The MMA glove favors strikers: There's just enough cushion to keep the hands from breaking when they throw a shot to the head, meaning that repeated head shots are feasible... they ARE NOT in bareknuckle; you will break your hand. Plus, the glove is bulkier than a hand, making grappling a bit harder.

ROUNDS favor strikers. As a grappler, I never want you to get back up. All that work I did to get you there is wasted as soon as the bell rings.

STAND-UPS due to stalling favor strikers. As a grappler, I don't care how long I just keep you controlled on the ground until I get what I want... if they stand me up for inactivity, now I have to take you down again.

No knees or elbows to the head while on the ground favors strikers. If you are, in fact, a striker, plain and simple, you are going to be spending far more time getting controlled on the ground than being controlled. The fact that I can't knee or elbow you to the head while I am controlling you SUCKS.

It is true that there are some things that strikers can't do... eye-gouge, fish-hook, etc. But that brings us full circle to an argument that you've started:

1. The objection that MMA types see frequently from "tradtional" MAists is that there are too many rules, consequently, the "traditional style" is too limited because there are all sorts of neat things they could do.

2. The other thing we hear most often is "Hey, we aren't just a bunch of people out here who poke eyes and groin strike and rant about qi all day! We know how to kick and punch and throw and jointlock as well as anybody else!"

PICK ONE. You CANNOT have it both ways. If you can punch and kick and throw as well as anybody else, step in the ring and SHOW US. If you are too limited by the rules, then your style IS all about eye-gouges, pressure points and groin strikes, and awfully low on the gross motor skills that will come in handy when somebody tries to take your head off.

If you can't punch me in the face, you sure as hell can't eye-poke me or finger jab me in a pressure point or hit my throat; if you can't kick me in the stomach without getting taken down, you sure can't kick me in the jumblies, a much smaller target area (except in cases of elephantiasis)so how are the rules limiting to strikers again?

Lastly, most of us MMAists aren't proud. Show us something that works and we'll adopt it happily, regardless of where it came from. Keep spewing forth without stepping up to show it, and we'll simply dismiss your comments. It's not nearly as much WHAT you are training, it's HOW you train. I'll take a tough as nails, hardcore sparring Tai-Chi guy over a lackadaisical BJJ'er or wrestling or Muay Thai guy any day of the week.

MartialKnight

11-24-2001, 06:17 AM

Take a BJJ guy straight from his school, he will get destroyed. Take a CMA guy straight from his kwoon, he will get destroyed. These are professional athletes in a professional SPORT. If you are not training for that sport specifically, you have no business in there.

A big reason alot of stand up fighters go down to grapplers is they dont use legs to keep distance and weaken the opponent, (are knee breaks alowed as I am sure they are more at the mercy of kung fu styles.), instead trying to use hands straight away alowing the grappler to shoot and take down into their element.

And yes, Boxers, kickboxers, and most pure striking asian arts get in a clinch and get separated by the referee; or if they fall they get back on their feet and start again.
MAs generally speaking have evolved from grappling, and I can think of at least two reasons for this.

First: if you train to strike and strike hard (which not a lot of people seem to do these days) you will have a weapon that is much more efficient and deadly than a take down.

Second: A take down, or any way you choose to become entangled on the ground with a person, implies enormous risk in a real situation. Punks have friends, and you probably won't know wherer they are when an attacker comes at you. Also, someone might swing a ounch or kick at you, but when you start to grapple they produce nasty sharp weapons (meaning knives, not teeth).
The implications of this seem obvious to me: MAs evolved as self-defense, never sport, and if you train for self-defense you will be putting a lot of valuable time learning grappling techniques that very well might be a strategically inferior way of defending yourself.

On the other hand, many MAs seem to have forgotten their grappling roots, and abandoned these techniques alltogether. This is a dead-end, especially as long as striking is not elevated beyond bar fight levels.

Merryprankster

11-24-2001, 07:02 AM

Martialknight,

Please pay closer attention to the strikers who are in the MMA competitions. I think you'll find they strike and strike hard, and furthermore, have evolved it beyond the bar-room brawling stage. Several of them have rather good credentials. Mo Smith comes immediately to mind.

I agree that MMA is a sport. I also agree that a straight BJJer and a guy fresh from the kwoon will get stomped, but the bottom line is this: The training for that sport (MMA) is intense and tough, and will prepare you well for an altercation on the street.

You are also sorely mistaken about what the strikers aren't doing. It's not that they aren't using their legs, it's that it's not that simple to keep the grapplers at bay.

The rules and surface don't favor grapplers.

Finally, there are events where the restrictions are extremely few; no biting, eye-gouges and fishhooks. That's it. All other techniques legal. By your comments, that favors "traditional" arts by leaps and bounds. By all means, let them enter and prove themselves! I think you'll find it harder to do a "knee break," than you seem to believe.

Spare me the comments about weapons and extra friends. We're ALL going to have a hard time in those situations, and the MORE you know, be it grappling, kicking, or punches, the better off you are.

How can cross training and improving your knowledge across the board decrease your martial readiness?

Xebsball

11-24-2001, 07:15 AM

"If you can't punch me in the face, you sure as hell can't eye-poke me or finger jab me in a pressure point or hit my throat; if you can't kick me in the stomach without getting taken down, you sure can't kick me in the jumblies, a much smaller target area (except in cases of elephantiasis)so how are the rules limiting to strikers again?"

Very truthfull, i always tought that stuff. Thats why training sportivly is good. It gives you the timing, reflexes and such thing to hit your oponent. If you learn how to hit someones nose you are very close to have the skill to be able to hit someones eyes. If you have the skill to hit someones chin you are very close to be able to hit someones throat.

----------------------------
You brake my elbow i put your face in s.hit! HA HA HA, how about that, HA HA!

Ryu

11-24-2001, 09:25 AM

http://www.esperonline.com/ubb/pity.gif

http://home.vobis.net/user/roy/anime/images/streetfighter15.jpg

"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

Merryprankster

11-24-2001, 04:01 PM

Ryu, that's hilarious! Although I'm contributing to the problem by posting on it, I'm sure.

Ryu shows us once again that the most effective style is "Angry man with mohawk"

doug maverick

11-27-2001, 09:03 PM

First of all thank you all for your replies good and bad.Secondly,yes i have been in multiple combat before, and no it's not a cake walk lots of those carry knives (and i have the scars to prove it) i brang up this point because a friend of mind is a bjj fighter pretty good with grappling, but one day. We were walking by a city housing projects inb the bronx, and some crips steped up to robb us, we really didn't want any trouble so we were prepared to give them what ever we had. but one of the guys hit my friend over the head with a broom stick. He grabs the guy up and puts him in a rear naked choke hold(he calls it his coil) any we start fighting my friend is getting stomped out i managed to get a stick from the floor and start beating the guys on the head i pick my friend and we start to run the guys didn't bother to run after us

Watchman

11-27-2001, 09:15 PM

...but since the venerable name of Vanderlei Silva was invoked...

http://a1140000.futurism.ws/susumu/pride/011103/susumu23.JPG

http://a1140000.futurism.ws/susumu/pride/011103/susumu22.JPG

http://a1140000.futurism.ws/susumu/pride/011103/susumu27.JPG

apoweyn

11-27-2001, 09:16 PM

if everyone on this forum got to contribute some example, story, or personal experience, and then use them to discount the style in question, we'd very quickly be reduced to concluding that no style works.

"well, i saw a muay thai fighter slip in a puddle of beer when he went to kick. so it doesn't work in bars."

"i knew this taiji guy who got mugged outside the community center where he worked. taiji is useless in self defense."

stories like these don't establish a rule. no self-respecting scientist formulates a theory based on one or even a handful of observations. why would we?

Watchman

11-27-2001, 09:16 PM

P.S. Whoever said BJJ fighters can't strike??

http://a1140000.futurism.ws/susumu/pride/011103/susumu16.JPG

Archangel

11-29-2001, 01:16 AM

That has to be the ugliest haircut I've ever seen, he deserved that right cross.

Jaguar Wong

11-29-2001, 02:39 AM

LOL @ Archangel, but that looks more like an overhand right. Maybe it's just the angle. I wonder how his haircut will fare against Badger, we all know he's undefeated against mullets, does that go for all styles as well.

Also, we know that BJJ is no good for the streets, because everyone has friends...except for the BJJ guy that is. So when he's rolling around getting stomped by the other guy's buddies the BJJ guy's friends will be too busy mackin' on the girlfriends of the assailants. We all know that the BJJ community is not close knit, and no one has anyone's "back" :)

Also, my brother and I used to practice multiple opponent stuff against other guys from our school (we would basically jump the guy), and if the multiple opponents know what they're doing, no style will work very well. Even a lone gunman would have a hard time against crazed multiple opponents rushing him.

Plus Watchman and his bro actually have specific techniques and strategies (complete with names :p), so he's taken it even further than my bro and I (you attack high on the right, I'll attack low on the left). I'd hate to be the guy that owes Watchman and Junior money :o

Jaguar Wong
The 6th Deadly Venom!

Jaguar's Wife (To "Judo" Gene Lebell): "Excuse me, my friend (Tigerstyle) wants to know if we can take a picture of you choking him."
Gene LeBell (in a gravely voice): "If he don't mind, I don't mind."
- actual event from DragonFest 1999

Ryu

11-29-2001, 02:47 AM

That guy has to be the ugliest looking guy I've ever seen! :( Forget mullets!

He looks like he stepped right out of a comic book...what a loser.

Ryu

http://bio.freewebsites.com/samurai/rrkpic3.jpg

Rimpleback Pumpernickle Kez Kez Vuy Tranh Yanagasawa Fujikage Fistibuns....
the lost son of the Fistibuns clan...

"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[This message was edited by Ryu on 11-29-01 at 04:55 PM.]

rubthebuddha

11-29-2001, 02:53 AM

i think we can officially categorize that hair as an "ugllet."

same goes for the rest of his head, too. i think that guy's mom lost a bet with god a few years back.

-rtb

Mr. Nemo

11-29-2001, 03:04 AM

The fu(k? Am I the only Heath Herring fan in here? His hair is part of his gimmick.

Why isn't anyone commenting on minotauro's ugly-ass scar?

I consider Silva more of kickboxer/wrestler than a kickboxer/bjj'er.

Xebsball

11-29-2001, 05:24 AM

Minotauro crosstrains in Muay Thai.

BTW, did you know that Vanderlei trains MT since he was like 13 years old?

----------------------------
You brake my elbow i put your face in s.hit! HA HA HA, how about that, HA HA!
http://www.systemofadown.com/images/blurb3.jpg

rogue

11-29-2001, 05:40 AM

Watchman, why'd you get rid of the mullet? And did that punch hurt? :D

I believe that the only defense against Watchman and his brother is to bring up the fire ant incident.:eek:

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

fajinpower

11-29-2001, 06:31 AM

Who lives in the street of New York on this forum?
Hmmm?? Does anyone know the meaning of weapons-knife, hammer, oozy, and etc. in the ghetto. No martial art will cover your ass if you get jump. I don't care how good you are. Usually, the group are very experience, and none of them walks alone. They are in pack. During these couple of years, New York is a better place to be. Back in the early 90s in Brooklyn, usually in Flatbush, and Prospect Park area where you will get jump for no apparent reasons. Usually the story happens as follow. A group of guys walks towards, and pass by you. It seems that nothing happens. Later, of by "surprse" a person with a big hammer slam on your skull. True story. That person still have a big hole on his head.

What can you do??????
"Stay alert, and stay alive"

MY SIFU - "Within stillness is movement, within movement is stillness; your whole body is full of circles; your body is three trunks / six harmonies; let your chi flow to your entire body; know your balance; your root guides the body movements; back erect; balance; yang flow down, yin flow up; east in the morning, west at evening; learn what is reasonable; you are holding a big ocean in your hands; everything is the same."

Watchman

11-29-2001, 07:51 AM

Mr. Nemo,

I'm a Heath Herring fan as well...just thought the pic was funny.

Jaguar Wong,

I keep meaning to come down your way, but haven't emailed you again because I keep crying wolf and flaking out on you. If I manage to get Junior to come down with me we'll give you and Tigerstyle a clinic on our Way of the Dark Side™ multiple attacker techniques. :D

Rogue,

I didn't get rid of the mullett. When a Wing Chun practioner reaches a certain mastery of skill, he is able to retract his mullett. P.S. Bringing up the fire ant incident would be an effective counter to our combined assault. Almost as good as asking two different Wing Chun practitioners what their lineage is. :D

shinwa

11-29-2001, 07:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I didn't get rid of the mullett. When a Wing Chun practioner reaches a certain mastery of skill, he is able to retract his mullett.

[/quote] LOL

Watchman

11-29-2001, 07:59 AM

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/pictures/pride17_silva.jpg

Mr. Nemo

11-29-2001, 08:21 AM

Silva's face is an interesting shade of purple in that picture.

Damm!t! Sak was so close! Asterisks!

jimmy23

11-29-2001, 09:32 AM

"A group of guys walks towards, and pass by you. It seems that nothing happens. Later, of by "surprse" a person with a big hammer slam on your skull. True story. That person still have a big hole on his head.
What can you do??????"

This has to be one of the funniest things Ive ever read here.

"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

fajinpower

11-29-2001, 02:47 PM

If that is funny, goto to Brooklyn-Flatbush, and Prospect Park, Lower Bronx, and Upper Manhattan at the night time. It is not Kansas any more.

MY SIFU - "Within stillness is movement, within movement is stillness; your whole body is full of circles; your body is three trunks / six harmonies; let your chi flow to your entire body; know your balance; your root guides the body movements; back erect; balance; yang flow down, yin flow up; east in the morning, west at evening; learn what is reasonable; you are holding a big ocean in your hands; everything is the same."

Badger

11-29-2001, 05:03 PM

Sure, I can take him. The only mullet I worry about is the Lethal Weapon Mel mullet.

Badger

Badger

11-29-2001, 05:19 PM

The badguys strike at you,simply duck & they will hit each other.If they do hit you don't worry their strikes won't hurt you(youre the good guy).But your strikes will knock them out with one blow(youre the good guy).The first 20 guys should be no problem(a big plus is that they attack 1 at a time) but the last badguy usually takes a little longer.He may knock you down a couple of times but a jump-turning-flying-360-dropkick with a flip should finish him off.

Or just tell the multiple badguys that they c an only punch & kick with no grabs or takedowns.But you can grab ,kick, punch takedown or whatever.

Badger

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