Yang Style Tai Chi [Archive] - Kung Fu Magazine Forums

Nexus

08-13-2001, 08:53 PM

very very very few good clips of quality Yang Style on the internet. This is due to several reasons, most of which I wont get into.

The main reason of this is becuase most practioners of the yang styles of taiji do Yang Cheng-Fu's 24-movement for health benefits. You'll find this ALL over the internet and it posseses little to no martial application.

If you come accross Yang Lu'chans old yang style clips then you may be in for a treat.

You might also find some clips from YCF's long form, which might be decent depending on who is in them.

If you want some good videos on the yang style though you might give <A HREF="http://www.taichiworld.net" TARGET=_blank>Erle Montaigue's site, http://www.taichiworld.net a look.

As for clips, you may find a lot more of push hands/sticky hands on the internet then taiji. Thats because this tends to be a lot more popular then the forms themselves as people use it as a measurement of their martial abilities (a fatal mistake I might add).

Good Luck on Your quest, and ask any questions you'd like, as I study Yang style and will do my best to answer them.

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

kungfuyou

08-13-2001, 09:31 PM

Thanks for the response. How does this style differ from lets say HSING I? Is this more internal or external? Or is it about the same?

GLW

08-14-2001, 12:49 AM

Nexus,

at least get your numbers straight.

Yang Chengfu's routine is known in many parts of China as "Ba shr wu su Yangs sze Taijiquan" or 85 Posture Yang's Taijiquan. Some folks also count it as 103, 108 and other numbers.

The 24 Posture Taijiquan (also known as Simplified Taijiquan) is based in a major part on Yang style but is NOT Yang style. There are MANY major differences between the two routines. 24 Posture was created in the 1950's (1955 if memory serves) and was designed to be a basic and beginning routine that would build a foundation and be good for health.

As such, it does EXACTLY what it was created for. Don't expect a Volkswagen to be a Mercedes Benz.

Also, while I agree with you on the quality of videos you will find on and off the internet for Yang Style, it is not simply the 85 posture that is bad...it is virtually all of them. Finding a good video on Taijiquan is not an easy thing to do.

Finally, it would be nice if you would split your opnion sections from your advertising section. While you may have a point about the quality of most videos, your statements are tainted and come off like "They suck but my teacher is great" by the way you got to the website and blurb for Montaigue. I am sure there are more constructive ways to get a plug in for your favorite.

Nexus

08-14-2001, 01:24 AM

I see you giving a lot of criticism to my suggestions of trying to help somebody out but no suggestions for them on where to start their research.

I was trying to help the person who asked the question, not badger other posters who had aid in the subject. The person who asks questions on this forum should take what we each say as a grain of salt.

Me trying to put in a plug for my favorite teacher? At least I gave them a teacher to base some learning off of rather then just bad mouth someone else for providing one.

Why don't you focus your next posts GLW on helping the person who is asking these questions rather then telling those who answered how to be as profound as you.

PS. My mistake on the history, you seem to know that better than I. Thanks for the information, I will compare that to what I had thought I knew and make changes. Thanks.

And also you might be interested to know that Erle Montaigue is not my taijiquan instructor as he lives in Australia and I live in Alaska. He is though a friend and I respect his abilities.

I don't play into the game of favorites, unless it comes to italian food.

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

[This message was edited by Nexus on 08-14-01 at 04:40 PM.]

Nexus

08-14-2001, 02:14 AM

And then it was brought into the light... By the way, this is from another website, not my own, but it should give a rough idea or accurate one depending on what you have learned.

http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Philosophy/Taichi/Images/yang.gif

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

GLW

08-14-2001, 07:36 PM

"I see you giving a lot of criticism to my suggestions of trying to help somebody out but no suggestions for them on where to start their research. "

My first criticism was at your MISINFORMATION concerning Yang Chengfu and 24 Posture Taijiquan. Exactly where is MISINFORMATION in any context helping anyone. Just setting the record straight.

"I was trying to help the person who asked the question, not badger other posters who had aid in the subject. The person who asks questions on this forum should take what we each say as a grain of salt. "

I merely pointed out that it was NOT true. A bit too tongue in cheek ....but if it was too abrasive, Sorry... I meant to encourage you to separate your plugs for what you like from misinformation. I may have included you with others from a certain area that tend to insult all people who do not do their version of Taijiquan....if I did that...again...Sorry.

"Me trying to put in a plug for my favorite teacher? At least I gave them a teacher to base some learning off of rather then just bad mouth someone else for providing one. "

The plug seemed to me to be at the expense of others. That is what I objected to. I do NOT have to list my teacher in order to object to such a thing.

"Why don't you focus your next posts GLW on helping the person who is asking these questions rather then telling those who answered how to be as profound as you."

Correcting erroneous information IS helping. Also, as you mentioned and I agree, there are VERY FEW sources on the web that are worth looking into. The poster would do better to go to something like A Taste of China or look around for a live teacher.

I imagine that he/she would also get a better list if they asked for instructors in their area.

"PS. My mistake on the history, you seem to know that better than I. Thanks for the information, I will compare that to what I had thought I knew and make changes. Thanks. "

Next time, I may try to be less tongue in cheek...it might be taken better :)

"I don't play into the game of favorites, unless it comes to italian food"

ONLY Italian food? I tend to play favorites on many types of food....Life is too short to eat bad food.

patriot

08-14-2001, 08:33 PM

How does our friend Erle fit into the lineage chart? Isn't he teaching and received the true transmission of the "original" Yang style?

How do those students of Lee's get listed amongst the great names of Yang Tai Chi? Are they recognized Yang disciples and how come nobody ever heard of them?

Nexus

08-14-2001, 08:39 PM

I didn't make that chart, I found it and thought it would give a general sense. That chart was made by a school that I am completely unfamiliar with and I just wanted to give those out there a sense of at least the lineage, although it is probably not accurate by any means. I do not stand by that chart, nor did I have anything to due with its creation. I would take it as just a reference or a starting point to some investigation if you want to learn more about the actual history of the yang style. I guarantee if you found 20 websites, with 20 different charts, most of the dates and names would be slightly different if not completely different!

Sorry for any confusion.

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

GLW

08-14-2001, 09:59 PM

Nexus has that right on.

Even if you are at a school where the teacher is quite good, you may find the lineage thing questionable.

For example, I have found that virtually every Yang style that I have seen in the past 16 years that is NOT directly traced to Yang Chengfu has the people doing it tracing it to Yang Banhou or trying to.

Considering that Yang Banhou was reputed to have only had 4 students who stayed with him, the countless styles that try to link to him tends to stretch credibility...especially since many look WAY different.

There are a couple of Yang styles that are NOT Yang Chengfu based that do not make the Yang Banhou claim....and some of those are plausible and some are pretty much out there in believabilty as well.

This is not really much help to newbies. Actually, I had been doing Taijiquan for almost 8 years before I became aware of the major amount of BS in the history from most teachers.

Kaitain(UK)

08-14-2001, 11:44 PM

Yang Family - Ip Tai Tak, Yang Chou Sung's 2 daughters

Yang Family Style - non recognised by the family at all but lay claim to family lineage - a few wannabes that think having the family name gives them credence

Yang style - anyone using the Yang form (or derivative), including those that are 'family' lineage but cannot be arsed to get involved with the political side of it all.

Old Yang style - this is a Taiji set allegedly from before Yang ChenFu made it easy. This has not been substantiated either way (I don't know the full story as it isn't really important). Earle teaches this.

So Earle doesn't associate himself with Yang family Taiji at all as it isn't the same thing as far as he is concerned.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

Brad

08-15-2001, 05:06 AM

Here's some Taiji clips: http://www.taiji.de/taiji/head5e/index.htm

PlasticSquirrel

08-15-2001, 06:03 AM

in china, there would be no difference in you saying whether you practice yang style, yang family style, or yang chengfu style. when we take the translated terms and scrutinize them with western thinking... well, we all know what happens then.

agh... almost forgot what i was going to write... here is a very good site for information. it's not exactly beginner material, but it can give you a good idea if you're serious.

http://sunflower.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/index.htm
i really like the site. so much stuff on it. especially the classics.

about xingyi quan (also spelled hsing i, and numerous other ways) and taijiquan (also spelled tai chi and numerous other ways), they are both very internal. i believe that xingyiquan is more external, however, because the muscles are alternately tensed slightly and then relaxed. taijiquan is very complex in it's use of jins, softness, and neutralizing. xingyiquan is more concerned with raw internal power, full-speed training, and short forms, but lots of them. of course, this is a broad generalization.

you can find more information on xingyiquan at
http://www.emptyflower.com/xingyiquan
this is an extremely good site.

i'm glad you came here rather than trusting a site you come across to give you accurate information, or endlessly trying to find a good one. :)

Repulsive Monkey

08-15-2001, 05:56 PM

You can see how the lineage chart is somewhat biased as they have Cheng Man-ching as being not a direct student of Yang Cheng-fu. Even Chen Wei-ming recognized Cheng's skill and he was considered Yang Cheng-fu's most loyal and long serving disciple. I do understand that Yang family politics managed to shuffle people around to make their own family look good, this is the case with Cheng Man-ching I feel as it was with Tian Shao-ling who actually studied under Yang Shao-huo and it was said under Yang Chien-huo, however they didn't want him looking better than Yang Cheng-fu I guess

Sam Wiley

08-15-2001, 11:53 PM

Patriot asked where Erle Montaigue fits into the lineage. His first official teacher was Chu King Hung. Later, he had his form corrected by Yang Sau Chung. After leaving Chu, he found Chang Yiu Chun in Australia, a student of Yang Shao-hou. Chang became his main teacher.

*********
"I put forth my power and he was broken.
I withdrew my power and he was ground into fine dust."
-Aleister Crowley, The Vision and the Voice

fajinpower

11-25-2001, 04:37 PM

Did anyone know the application in yang Taiji or how to get information on the applications in Taiji? Does anyone know the differences between the Taiji family style beside the forms itself. What is the differences between the family.

Some Yang Movement Set.
How do you use them in combat?

1) Grasping Peacock Tail
2) Single Whip
3) Repulsive Monkey
4) Brush Knee push hand
5) Cloud Hands
etc...

"Within stillness is movement, within movement is stillness; your body is a circles."

Sam Wiley

11-26-2001, 02:19 AM

Bro, you've asked more than you can get from a forum. As for the applications for the form postures, you'll have to be shown them, as you simply cannot learn them from what is written, especially without pictures. Al Krych is a very good Taijiquan teacher in New Jersey that you might want to look up. His e-mail address is pr@nac.net

And as for the family style differences, there are many differences between the family styles. The forms are different, training methods are different...most things will be different. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than myself could give you a comparison list of the different family styles so you could understand a little better.

*********

Xebsball

11-26-2001, 05:51 AM

You will find some stuff here:
http://www.geocities.com/~wahnam/

More specifcly:
http://www.geocities.com/wahnam/comb/combat.html

----------------------------
You brake my elbow i put your face in s.hit! HA HA HA, how about that, HA HA!
http://www.systemofadown.com/images/blurb3.jpg

SolarStance

11-26-2001, 06:49 AM

Dr. Yang Jwing-Mng has a series of books on Yang Style Taiji that have some very interesting application techniques for the postures you mentioned and more. Even some intricate chin-na for single whip, etc. You can find the books at most reputabale book stores, or order directly form Yang Publication Center--www.ymaa.com.
This might be a good start. I found that the more I practise the postures the more applications come to light. But a book like this is great for a start.
)))Solar Stance((( :)

Nexus

11-26-2001, 07:41 PM

Tai Chi Chuan : 24 and 48 Postures With Martial Applications

by Shou-Yu Liang, Wen-Ching Wu, Denise Breiter (Editor)

Great book by someone who will be coming up to Alaska for the spring tai chi festival here in 2002!

- Nexus

fajinpower

11-29-2001, 03:44 AM

All the info are very useful!

"Within stillness is movement, within movement is stillness; your body is a circles."

Ma_Xu_Zha

11-29-2001, 05:00 PM

studying applications is good for general purpose. what I have experienced is that most of my teachers show the applications out of push hands training and that study of form, push hands will develope hua jing which is necessary for the martial aspect. This comes from training hard with a good teacher, and having correct form. It is easy to display ming jing or obvious power, but the true goal is hua jing or hidden power. then the applications have true internal power within.

the suggested books above show some applications and may help to a degree, but a good teacher with sound knowledge will advance your practice.

RAF

11-29-2001, 05:13 PM

Ma_Xu_Zha

Really excellent insight (training principle). I hope you will take the time to elaborate.

Thanks

MaFuYee

11-29-2001, 06:05 PM

solarstance,
- yjm's tai chi applications bite the big one.

ma2,
- nice sounding post; but, you still haven't told him how to apply anything(!) - and, that was the question at hand...

also, i don't believe push hands alone, can really prepare you for actual fighting. (but, it sure does reduce the risk of liability.)

- neque mibi quisquam Judaeorum fabulas objiciat.

Ma_Xu_Zha

11-29-2001, 08:00 PM

There is nothing in the universe that says you have to believe what I mentioned about applications practiced out of push hands. Speaking from my own experience with many teachers there is great mistake in practicing rote applications. The taiji oral explanation for developing skill is something like ni na ting hua da fa - stick, adhere, neutralize, follow, attack and emit this is the heart of push hands. Applications practiced in a stop and go fashion have some functions, but in taiji one purpose is developing sensitivity and softness to react naturally and this is done with push hand training. All the techniques that pung_lu_ji_an is interested in are within the push hands method.

i have to get back to work will check later to claify if necessary.
peace

bamboo_ leaf

11-29-2001, 09:21 PM

â€œ i don't believe push hands alone, can really prepare you for actual fighting. (but, it sure does reduce the risk of liability.)â€

Interesting what would you suggest doing to gain the skills needed to use TC?

:)

bamboo leaf

Nexus

11-29-2001, 09:29 PM

I'd suggest eating rice!

Shaolin Master

12-02-2001, 12:17 PM

Out of the 10 routines of Yang Style taijiquan who practises the 6th "Xiao Jiu Tian" (Small 9 Heavens) often. Do you find the coling aspects advantages to your normal practise.

miscjinx

12-06-2001, 07:47 AM

I do not practice that form; however, I also study Chen style. The coiling aspects of that form and its practice have helped me in my normal Yang Style practice.

The continuous internal strength, coiling, and quick direction changes in Chen Style have helped me get over rough spots in my Yang Style.

So I see coiling practice as advantageous to normal Yang Style practice.

~ Eric Putkonen

Ma_Xu_Zha

12-06-2001, 03:03 PM

what is your lineage of yang taiji?

The only yang style I have heard has 10 routines is actually the long form broken down into 10 routines.

I am guessing the nature of your question is dealing more with the forms at the middle of the long form? possibly fair maiden plays shuttles?!?

what are the names of the movements in this 6 th routine your mentioning?

Ma_Xu_Zha

12-06-2001, 03:17 PM

My teacher mentions this on applications-

Few people teach taiji shan-sou. As my experience.
Taiji application is from pushhand training. First, you should train with
all the sensitivity and huajin tech. then you got train the ying-yang and
xu-shi, which give you a pretty good eyes to watch and judge people. So
called "wo shueng, ren bei" and it is the basic. Then you you train with
power develop. Current taiji training give people a misunderstanding like
that taiji doesn't need power. Actually it does and has series training
method. The difference between taiji and other martial art is that taiji
empasize to use power on most efficent way, which still need training. As a
whole, it is diffic to learn taiji from book.

It is easy to show someone how to apply ward off, roll back, brush kneee, repulse monkey and cloud hands of of push hands and examples with a student , but in actual combat it will be hard to apply.

Ma_Xu_Zha

12-06-2001, 03:21 PM

sorry I forgot to mentions-

wave hands- is a shoulder strike or blocks high kicks
repulse is a sweep and arm lock
brush knee blocks a kick and presses to face
single whip blocks a strike and chops to troat
ward off is a neck snapper
roll back is a yielding move
press is a cavity squeeze to the chest
push is obvious.

Shaolin Master

12-07-2001, 05:52 AM

Names :

1. Qi Xing Ba Bu
2. Kai Tian Men
3. Shen Mian Bei
4. Shang Ti Shou
5. Xia Ti Shou
6. Jue Hu Tiao Jian
7. Dan Bian Shen Ying
8. Shuang Bian Shen Ying
9. Chuan Fa Zhang
etc

Yang Lu Chan's.......

I do not practice Yang Taiji...only Zhao Bao and Wudang.

miscjinx

12-07-2001, 07:51 AM

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
wave hands- is a shoulder strike or blocks high kicks
repulse is a sweep and arm lock
brush knee blocks a kick and presses to face
single whip blocks a strike and chops to troat
ward off is a neck snapper
roll back is a yielding move
press is a cavity squeeze to the chest
push is obvious.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is application at its most basic level. It is easier in person that talking about it, but single whip as an application of blocking a strick and chopping the throat is the obvious one most teachers show and is usually done to large to be effective in an actual fight.

There are so many applications I don't think any one person knows them all. For single whip I came up with a nasty one that I've never seen taught by any teacher that I know. I start the sequence from fishes in eight through most of single whip. From a high punch from the opponent the fishes in eights is an effective mini-rollback with an arc that sucks the opponent forward. The fingers stab out (going for the throat, one of the pits or creases of the throat in particular) and then for single whip (in Yang Lu' Chan at least) does a small circle and punching through the center with crane's beak basically. Internalize this...really small circle driven from the center. So after the stab to the throat you internally circle the hand and thrust (punch with crane's beak). What really happens is the after the stab you torque/dig into the pit or crease as your rotate the hand along your index finger. From the dig your hand crawls up the neck to give a strike with knuckle(s) (in an upward 45 degree angle). Two movements internally looking like one externally...two strikes for the price of "one" movement. This is a fairly devestating strike, for when me and a partner was working this out we did it as slow and soft as we could and I still hit him too hard (the neck being sensitive as it is). The torque and power dynamics is something else.

My old teacher "discovered" some great but unheard of applications as well. I suggest really taking a look at the form your favor...every movement, turn, weight change, etc. Taking the ends of one movement and the first part of the next like above. I took the last portion of fishes in eight and the beginning of single whip in the Yang Lu' Chan form. Watch just one hand. Perhaps your form has a tell as George Dillman and Chris Thomas describe in their forms. One hand during a movement in the form would be showing you where to strike and the other is the how to strike. Leave no stone unturned and you will be surprised what you could find within the form you do.

~ Eric Putkonen

Ma_Xu_Zha

12-10-2001, 02:16 PM

I dont know what you are getting at here using chinese terms cant read. If you practice xiao bao and wudang why does yang style matter to you?

can you send the names of the 10 routines and all the movements within the 10 routines? I will have a chinese yang style teacher translate them.

Shaolin Master

12-11-2001, 12:39 AM

purely for the sake of conversation. Just thought someone would know.

sorry I did not know u didn't read pinyin, well anyways not important.

names of the ten ....don't know, names inside also don't know.

Rgds

PS : "Zhao" not "Xiao"

Mighty Mungbean

12-11-2001, 07:02 AM

I would first like to mention how grateful I am to how found an intelligent forum in which to further explore tai chi and martial arts.
Now as, to the applicability of Yang movements I must first declare only limited knowledge. My teacher is a Wushu expert from Wuhan, China who has studied Wushu from the tender age of five. We have only touched upon push hands in the two years I've studied with him. My own practice however is a few short years older. My experience has show me that the applications will sometimes "spark" before you as they are needed.
My example comes from this summer as I was beginning my Shorin Ryu karate training. My Sensei in an effort to illustrate an application from kata suddenly burst forth and grabbed me by the throat. Unfortunately it was not Shorin Ryu that came to my rescue but Tai Chi. I immediately responded with the "toe stretching kick" of the Yang short form. Both of my hands flew to his fore arms in an inside-out motion with the outside edge of my palms striking the inside of his forearm. At the same time my foot went up and into his groin and it was only as I recognized the softness with which my foot encountered did I realize the accuracy of my strike and I tried to pull it. Luckily, this took place at my house and my Sensei is also a good friend.
My point is that I think that with practice the body gets "hardwired" to move in certain ways. In times of need the applications make themselves known. I teach a basic introductory class in the yang short form (24) I only discuss applications in terms of illusrating more concretely the individual moves themselves and perhaps as a visualization aid to aid the student in her practice.
I would not presume to teach tai chi as a martial art, although that is the way I personnally choose to study.
To the comment about Yang Jwing Ming and his tai chi applications, I will say that I attended one of his seminars awhile back and was very impressed. He is an impressive human being and his martial art is very real. I would not dismiss him so quickly.
Thanks.

Ma_Xu_Zha

12-11-2001, 07:07 AM

Here is what my teachers said-

I know nine small heaven only by the name. I don't believe any body is good
at that in China. Don't spend much time on this.

GOLDEN ARMOR

11-10-2002, 07:49 AM

Can anyone tell me about the Modern Yang Style?

Can it be learnt for self defence? or is it only taught for health?

I went to a guy that does massage therapy coz I broke my wrist 1 & a half years ago & it still hadn't healed fully. He also mixed some herbs into a paste which he put on my wrist. I asked him if I can continue training a hard style & he said I should train a soft style like tai chi till my wrist gets stronger. We were talkn about M.arts & he told me he teaches Modern Yang Style Tai Chi which he learnt in Taiwan & China. I asked him if he teaches the fighting applications & he said he mainly teaches for health but he does know the fighting side.
When he told me he does the modern yang style, I asked him what the difference was of the styles. He said that the other styles repeat a lot of the movements but they all end with the same result. What do u guys think of this?
His english wasn't too good so a lot of the things he said was hard to understand.

When I asked if he taught the fighting applications he seemed to be a little secretive. Are a lot of tai chi sifus secretive about the fighting applications?

Muppet

11-10-2002, 08:58 AM

Hmm...

There's so much politics and bs in tai chi that it's hard to sort anything out :( but if the guy is being secretive then you may want to look around some more before deciding.

It helps to know at least one immediate application for each form when you practice. But once you actually start LEARNING the applications (drills, sparring, etc.) you need to have a partner.

If the guy teaches for health, who's gonna be your partner?

As for forms, it doesn't matter too much whether you're doing the orthodox 108 or just working on each form individually.

The important thing is to reasonably perfect each move so that in all parts of a move you're perfectly stable, etc.

What the linked form DOES give you is an idea of transitioning smoothly from one move to another. More importantly, it also tells you which moves the Yang masters thought were either particularly useful or needed a lot of work to perfect, because those moves are repeated over and over and over in the 108 forms.

Also of note. Of the three internal styles, tai chi probably depends the most on the ever elusive internal power, and if the teacher doesn't have the goods, it won't appear by magic.

Some moves, such as squatting single whip, are awkward and would be too slow to execute in a fight without that internal power to spring you back up.

JAZA

11-10-2002, 07:16 PM

I would recommend go to Tai Chi with martial side.
Me too had an injury and back to train with Tai Chi, but even the sifu was great, most of peole were older than me and I think that doesnt motivates too much a person with martials likes.
Just a thought.

Shadow Dragon

11-10-2002, 07:25 PM

Hmmm.

Not sure about the "Modern yang style", it can mean anything.
He said that he teaches motsly for health benefits but does know the martial side.

Asking him if he is willing to show it to you.

He might teach the healh side to supplement his income or use it as an additional healing therapy, this does not mean that he lacks the fighting aspects and knowledge of it.

I know many Sifu that teach "health orientated" TMA public and teach "martial orientated" TMA on a side basis or only atfer a certain time studying under him.

It all depends on the Sifu, his teaching style and how he chooses his Students.

Many good MA Instructors don't advertise publicly or make known what they do know.

Cheers.

Brad

11-10-2002, 08:08 PM

Yes, well taught Yang style can be used for self defence. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "modern" Yang style though :confused: Yang also tends to be much better for health than other martial art styles.

When I asked if he taught the fighting applications he seemed to be a little secretive. Are a lot of tai chi sifus secretive about the fighting applications?

Some are while some aren't for various reasons. I think being in good health and building your strength are more important than knowing specific applications for every movement in the early stages of training.

apham4

11-10-2002, 10:17 PM

If i'm not mistaken, when I hear the term "modern" yang I generally liken it with the standardized forms that are used for competition. This includes the 24,48, and 42 movement hand form in addition to the 32 and 42 sword form.

I personally feel that taiji can be whatever the person wants it to be. If you want it to be for health then you will naturally pick out the health aspects of the teaching. Likewise can be said for the martial or spiritual side. I'm not a fan of having one or the other forced on me. I've been to more "martially" orientated schools and I felt that intention of the movements and such really "disharmonized" my mind, so to speak. Same thing goes for the strictly health aspect of teaching, if it's too caught up in the health side ( i usually liken this with new-agey kinda stuff) then some of the martial concepts that taiji was founded on is lost. Concentration is then focused on health and happiness but what about proper structural alignment and notions of qi and intention (yi). But sometimes if one has trained before then sometimes one can instill the martial side to a health-orientated training.

Kinda interesting how he said that they all come to the same result. Kinda similar to a quote a read in a book: There are many paths to the top of the mountain, but once at the top, we all see the same moon. -- Zen Mind, Beginner's Mind

I've heard notions that the traditional sets tend to help in martial training due to the repitions. Kinda like when a boxer want to work on his jab, he does a lot of jabs. I've seen the traditional set before and it does have a lot of repititions but this can either be seen as a positive or negative depending on your perspective.

As for being secretive on the martial side of taiji, I think it depends. My previous teacher, who i hold in high regard, new students came and asked about the fighting applications right away he would not talk about it. This type of questioning can give a lot of information on the inquiring student and the teacher can then answer accordingly. Can sometimes be seen as a way of filtering out. I was telling a current friend of mine how when I initially started training in wushu a long time ago, i really liked to fight. But after practicing wushu for sometime with my instructor I didn't want to fight anymore but strangely, now that I don't want to fight anymore, I feel that if I were to get into a fight that I could probably do a lot more damage now than before. My friend likened it to a "traditional" saying in that "when the student does not want to fight is he taught how to truly fight" or something along those lines.

good luck with your search. :)
A.

TaiChiStorm

11-11-2002, 03:11 AM

hi GA,
Yang Tai Chi Chuan was my first martial art. Now I am doing PM.
At first, it is a great style for health and also self defence. But ,as in every soft CMA style, you need a lot time and effort (more than in other styles) to reach the self defence aspect!!!
But I guess you definatly will benefit from it:

1. It will help you to be more soft in harder styles
2. It will teach you to do forms VERY detailed
3. It will teach you concentration on the technique you do

All these things depend on your teacher. There are a lot crab teachers out there ,so be careful. But if he learned in Taiwan and China ,it should be alright.

GO FOR IT!!!!

greets,
TCS

Empty Fist

11-11-2002, 06:00 AM

Golden Armour,

I can relate. I had a serious bout with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome in both of my hands about a year and a half ago. I read several articles which stated that Yoga or Tai Chi could be helpful in recuperating from repetitive strain injuries. I chose Tai Chi over Yoga because Tai Chi is a martial art (but you need to find a teacher that teaches the martial applications of the art most teachers just teach Tai Chi for health). I used to take Judo and Jujitsu years ago but with the current condition of my hands the risk was too high of making my injuries worse. Well about after a year and a half of taking Tai Chi, my left hand is probably 95% recuperated and my right hand is probably 70% recuperated. I figured it will take longer for my right hand to heal since I’m right handed. I’m glad I chose Tai Chi over surgery
:)

Ma_Xu_Zha

01-17-2005, 07:35 AM

After seeing many various styles and teachers of yang tai chi chuan such as lineages from Yang jian hao (yang chen fus father) yang pan hao (yang chen fus uncle) and yang shoa hao (yang chen fu older brother) as well as ynag lu chan (founder of yang tai chi chuan) do you think the yang family ought to expand their training cirruculum or at least researcha dn accept these various branches?

Brad

01-17-2005, 08:37 AM

Not unless the person can be verified as legit and if the style offers something new... most of this stuff is unverifiable(as far as lineage goes) and really doesn't offer anything different than the mainstream stuff. If they want to research authentic taiji that comes from someone previous to Yang Cheng Fu, then they should just look into the Wu or Chen branches.

David Jamieson

01-17-2005, 02:38 PM

my training partner and i have been sipping on the tai chi cup for a couple of years now. each of us has of course had some taste of it for many years but here's my spin.

lineage is unimportant except to those who have that as their focus. The only Tai Chi that realy stands apart from all the other styles is Chen. It is decidedly different in form and expression.

the two Wu styles, Sun and Yang actually have more similarities than differences. But Chen looks more and is expressed more like a NOrthern style of Kungfu.

Walter Joyce

01-18-2005, 08:44 AM

I'm not trying to stir anything up, but I have trained in Wu, Yang and Chen.

I see more similarity between Yang and Chen than Wu and Yang, but having said that I see similarity between all three.

I have also studied northern styles of kung fu and see no similarity whatsoever between the way that Chen taiji is done and northern styles of kung fu. I do see some similarity with the external expression of some of the movements, like single whip.

And not to confuse things too much, while I grasp (I think) the distinction you are trying to make by saying "northern kung fu" all three styles, Wu, Yang and Chen, are technically "northern kung fu" systems, originating from the north of China. I see the distinction you are making as the crusty waijia neijia distinction that starts so many pointless arguments.

To the original question raised, I agree with wht Brad siad, and would add that the Yang family might have their own criteria and motives for structuring their curricullumm as they see fit. History and marketing come to mind.

Ma_Xu_Zha

01-18-2005, 02:58 PM

great posts-

I can see how if someone wanted to dig deep into yang style to go into chen style or even wu style of wu jian chien. the other 'wu' also called 'hao' has no resemblence to yang for me. the wu style of wu jian chien on the other hand is very similar to yang and what yang pan hao and yang shao hao taijiquan may have looked liked and now called 'small frame'.

personally i am curious of the style known as Imperial Yang taijiquan which looks like an earlier version of wu jian chiens taijiquan. it is suppose to be what yang lu chan was teaching in beijing at the time of his arrival and before it was standardized. the form is called lao jia, (which is same name as first form in chen) it has fajing, jump kicks, and more spiriling energy. there is also a small frame form, big frame form and long fist form.

i am just an observer of the style and see it as a transition phase between chen and the current yang long form much like the guang ping style of taijiquan. there are several people in china teaching this and the dvd's can be purchased at www.chinafrominside.com if you dare to have a observation in the way i was curious. they also have spear which i am very fond of. yang family doesnt teach spear which alot of taiji school include as power training.

i already chose to study the chen taiji lao jia and pao chui , chen sword and long pole as something closer to the orgin of what yang lu chan may have originally learned. chen taijiquan is very unique and we are fourtunate to have great masters like chen zhen lei, chen xiao wang, wang xian and zhu tien cai to teach annualy in usa.

bamboo_ leaf

01-18-2005, 07:27 PM

(I'm not sure how to answer that but here goes. Yang Zhenduo is nearly 80 now. He's been practicing and teaching most of his life.

He teaches what he learned from his father, Yang Chengfu, his 'uncle' Yang Zhaopeng (Yang Banhou's son, who was put in charge of training Yang Zhenji and Yang Zhenduo when they were young), his elder brother Yang Shouzhong, as well as a few of Yang Chengfu's disciples, and interestingly, his mother.

So as such Yang Zhenduo feels that he has had very rich and unique opportunities to learn his father's style and his desire is to pass on what he learned. He and Yang Jun are very supportive of other branches of the family, such as Yang Shouzhong, Fu Zhongwen, and his father's many disciples.

They feel that taijiquan is one big family, and all taiji practice is good practice. Given this unusual and rich background, it does not surprise me at all that Yang Zhenduo and Yang Jun are not shopping around for more knowledge, but more intent on practicing, deepening and passing on what they already have.

You have only to talk to them to understand the profound respect they have for all practitioners and teachers.

Yang Jun has made a special point of instructing us that the website and the Association Journal are not to be used to disparage any teachers or practitioners.

Not only are Yang Zhenduo and Yang Jun supportive of Yang style, they are also respectful and supportive of all other styles, such as Chen, Wu, Wu, Sun, and so on, and have good relations with the representatives of these styles.)

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000094.html

from the yang family site, some really good thoughts expressed

DMK

06-18-2007, 10:35 AM

I am just wandering how many practitioner are out there that practice Yang Family Taiji as passed down by Master Fu Zhong wen? I realize that it only a few ,but if you know of anyone that practice from the late master share your insights

scholar

06-23-2007, 07:37 AM

You may have seen this before:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2684733084214920600&q=taijiquan+tai+chi+chuan

Pretty good reputation, from what I hear...

DMK

09-21-2007, 11:48 AM

Hello ,
I was wanting to know if anyone know if the Yang Family have a museum?
Is Yang Chengfu House still standing and can tourist go? I wish there was a Yang Family Training center like what the chen village has.
Thanks

tai chi hermit

09-25-2007, 04:18 AM

its not really a center but YMAA is based on yang taiji and some external styles. they dont really have a center except the one in california where they are having a retreat for 10 yrs where you can sign up to go. ymaa.com

Ozzy Dave

09-25-2007, 09:54 PM

I believe Yang Luchan's house is something of a museum in Yongnian, Hebei China.

I'd be surprised if no one in practising Yang Shi Taijiquan there.

skyjhand

10-05-2014, 05:25 PM

mawali

10-05-2014, 05:56 PM

Does anyone have a list of the Yang style forms? I know the hand movements go up to 103 movements (knowledge from Wikipedia), however I don't know if there are other hand forms or weapon forms under the Yang style tree.

There is so much smoke, mirrors, dog and pony videoshows regarding Yang style taijiquan, its reality, who is the real Yang stylist, is it Yang Style of Yang family that one usually ends up with mental batcrap,enough to drive one crazy for the next 2 million years! And that is an understatement!

Do you actually mean the amount of postures in a form? As an example, The Beijing 24 shi taijiquan (n=24) actually contains about 17 unique postures depending on how they are counted.
The Yang (Style of Family):D:D allegedly has 103-108 but in reality it may be around 75 since the 85 (82 -85) postures has around 70:D unique postures depending on how they are counted.

Just find someone who you can teach and learn form that person then count postures later. Enjoy the ride!:eek:

GeneChing

07-20-2017, 10:17 AM

Tournament gathers global tai chi fans in Jinzhong (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/m/shanxi/2017-07/18/content_30158955.htm)
( chinadaily.com.cn )
Updated: 2017-07-18

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/m/shanxi/images/attachement/jpg/site1/20170718/286ed488c8281ad8192e01.jpg
Participants in the 2017 Yang-style Tai Chi International Invitational Tournament perform tai chi, an ancient Chinese martial art, in Jinzhong, Shanxi province, on July 15. Yang-style Tai Chi has a history dating back some 170 years and was created by Yang Luchan from Hebei province. His descendants have developed and promoted his martial art with 36 Yang-style Tai Chi centers operating all around the world. [Photo/Xinhua]

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/m/shanxi/images/attachement/jpg/site1/20170718/286ed488c8281ad8193302.jpg
An Australian tai chi enthusiast demonstrates his moves during the tai chi tournament in Jinzhong, Shanxi province, on July 15. The event, which took place from July 15 to 17, attracted more than 1,300 participants from China, Australia, Japan, Iran, and Malaysia. [Photo/Xinhua]

Not much news here really, but an excuse to ttt this thread.

GeneChing

11-02-2017, 07:56 AM

'master finds online lessons hard to deliver' Yeah, well, we all figured that out with videos back in the 80s. Tell us more about VR. :rolleyes:

Chinese tai chi master finds online lessons hard to deliver (http://www.scmp.com/tech/innovation/article/2118121/chinese-tai-chi-master-finds-online-lessons-hard-deliver)
Ye Yongxiang, a sixth-generation tai chi master, says the internet is a great way to promote Chinese art to the world
PUBLISHED : Thursday, 02 November, 2017, 3:03pm
UPDATED : Thursday, 02 November, 2017, 10:40pm
Celia Chen

https://cdn2.i-scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/980x551/public/images/methode/2017/11/02/580ba67e-bf97-11e7-b942-6d23cbdef96a_1280x720_151331.JPG

Internet technology can satisfy many demands in China, but if you want to learn traditional tai chi online, there are limitations, according to Ye Yongxiang, the sixth generation tai chi master of the widely performed Yang-style form.
“I am always thinking about how to take advantage of technology for tai chi demonstration and promotion,” said Ye, at the Credit Suisse China Investment Conference in Shenzhen on Wednesday, where she was a speaker.
The young master, who is committed to promoting the martial art, launched a series of online video lessons on tai chi on Mixiong.TV, a popular live streaming platform in China, in February.
Tai chi is a form of martial art exercise that emphasises inner peace and strength through calm breathing and seamless body movement.
“Without tools to simulate face to face interaction, I can only teach some basic movements such as how to breathe smoothly or how to stand erectly,” said Ye.
Ye said that virtual reality and augmented reality technology are not mature enough to offer an immersive digital environment that can allow her to take tai chi lessons to the next level.
But she said that the internet is definitely a great way to clear misconceptions and promote tai chi and other Chinese traditional arts to the world.
Wang Xiyuan, 35, a tai chi aficionado, said she seldom follows online videos while practising. “I watch the videos to appreciate the beauty of the art and enjoy the peace it brings to me,” said Wang.
“I do not think I can make the movements precisely by following the videos and I may hurt myself without the guidance of a tai chi master.”
Whatever the shortcomings of technology, some famous personalities and tycoons are keen followers of the art.
Jack Ma, founder of Chinese tech giant Alibaba, is devoted to promoting tai chi with his big-screen debut, Gong Shou Dao, or The Art of Attack and Defence.
Ma assembled a team to realise his decade-long dream of becoming a tai chi master, and he unveiled the movie’s poster on his microblog account, showing him surrounded by the other stars. The movie will be released on November 11, synonymous with the online shopping extravaganza known as Singles Day in China.
Alibaba owns the South China Morning Post.

GeneChing

11-17-2017, 02:00 PM

Tai Chi Goddess? 70,000 fans? Ye will deserve her own indie thread if there's another news report on her.

Tai chi goddess: Young master teaches ancient martial arts online (http://africa.chinadaily.com.cn/culture/2017-11/16/content_34598593.htm)
CGTN | Updated: 2017-11-16 10:00

http://africa.chinadaily.com.cn/culture/img/attachement/jpg/site1/20171116/a41f726b05591b772e0308.jpg
[Photo/CGTN]

The Chinese martial art form of tai chi is centuries old. And the Yang-style is the most popular in the world.

Today, A young tai chi master, Ye Yongxiang, has started teaching the practice online, in order to share the time-honored martial art with people around the world.

With her serenity and elegance, Ye Yongxiang is known inside China's vibrant cyber community as the tai chi goddess.

Her educational videos have earned the young tai chi master a strong following of over 70,000 fans. Ye Yongxiang says her aim is to reveal the essence of this time-honored martial art.

"Actually the essence of kung fu is not about glamour and razzle-dazzle. Behind the spectacle, is endless sweat and hard work," Ye Yongxiang said.

Born in the mid-1980s in Shanghai, Ye Yongxiang first learned about tai chi from her mother, a professional martial artist. She began formally training at the age of eight and has shown steadfast dedication to mastering the martial art.

http://africa.chinadaily.com.cn/culture/img/attachement/jpg/site1/20171116/a41f726b05591b772e2709.jpg
[Photo/CGTN]

Before starting, CGTN asked whether she could endure the hard work. She first said nothing and just nodded her head. Then she gave an affirmative answer.

"For a time I even forgot how to move my legs while walking, because tai chi requires footwork that is different from our everyday gait. I found the experience rather disorienting and wondered whether I should keep learning tai chi. But gradually I came to see tai chi's beauty. Getting rid of the physical inertia gave me a sense of liberation. I gained a new perspective on things," Ye said.

After graduating from a top sports academy in Shanghai, Ye Yongxiang worked as a tai chi instructor.

In 2014, she competed in the Hong Kong Wushu Championship. After earning gold medals in all three main tai chi events, Ye became China's youngest tai chi master.

Determined to share tai chi with a wider audience, she then went to study humanities at the Queen Mary University of London.

Ye Yongxiang said: "tai chi is more than a set of martial skills. It embodies a coherent code about how to live and how to conduct yourself. It's not merely about kicking and punching. It's a mental process."

For Ye Yongxiang, tai chi is a way to integrate the body and mind. In pursuing the wholeness of the self through tai chi, she has come to learn perseverance, forbearance, and focus.

Early in 2017, Ye Yongxiang set up her own tai chi studio in Shanghai.

http://africa.chinadaily.com.cn/culture/img/attachement/jpg/site1/20171116/a41f726b05591b772e420a.jpg
[Photo/CGTN]

Tapping into the country's fast-growing online community, she began using video streaming to teach the martial art. But the plan didn't run smoothly at first. "I felt a lot of stress when I first started my studio. There's a lot of rejection," she said, "Some suggested that I'm too young and lack seniority. And some simply dismissed me as nothing but a pretty face."

Thanks to her precise, accessible language and multi-angle demonstrations, Ye Yongxiang has been able to gradually build a solid fan base. Her Weibo account now has more than 70,000 followers and Ye's online interactions with university lectures have attracted thousands of young people to the ancient martial art.

Through her two decades of learning and teaching tai chi, Ye Yongxiang has observed a shift in people's attitude towards the tradition, which used to only be valued as a form of physical exercise.

"Taiji has never been something static, and it will continue to adapt as time changes. We are living in a world of many temptations and distractions. You have to build a very strong inner self. Sometimes people might feel inadequate to cope with life. I've found tai chi very life-enhancing and satisfying," she said.

http://africa.chinadaily.com.cn/culture/img/attachement/jpg/site1/20171116/a41f726b05591b772e690b.jpg