A question of Ming era Red Fist

[Tainan Mantis]

I am looking for a description of red fist 紅拳. What type of punch is it?
Specifically the red fist that uses the character for red, as opposed to a different character such as 洪.

This shows up in Qi Jiguang's Fist Classic in several sentences such as:


補前掃轉上紅拳
Add a front sweep followed by red fist.

[RenDaHai]

I have a vague memory that a 'red fist' in the context of an individual technique refers to a palm strike, a palm flushed with blood is red. Though I am really not certain.

Perhaps the 'Shang' in the text refers to the 'upper' body as opposed to the 'next' technique, i.e below sweep the leg while above pushing with the palm. Just a conjecture.

[Tainan Mantis]

I have a vague memory that a 'red fist' in the context of an individual technique refers to a palm strike, a palm flushed with blood is red. Though I am really not certain.

I remember Ba Wang said that. But I am somewhat doubtful of that definition.
Anyway, General Qi's manual is often quite clear on the difference between palm and fist. In this case, red is fist.
In other instances where red is used fist or not is not clearly explained.

[Jimbo]

I am looking for a description of red fist 紅拳. What type of punch is it?
Specifically the red fist that uses the character for red, as opposed to a different character such as 洪.

This shows up in Qi Jiguang's Fist Classic in several sentences such as:


補前掃轉上紅拳
Add a front sweep followed by red fist.


In some cases, h0mophones were used interchangeably in CMA names.

Possibly it could also mean intent, meaning to draw blood/kill. I remember a long time ago reading a CMA book in Taiwan that had a saying that translates, "white knife leaves; red knife comes back".

Just my .02.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I remember learning a long fist form many years ago. It began with a posture where the practitioner was hold while bringing the chi to his hands, until they reddened. Then the practitioner would proceed holding the chi out to the extremities. So when I saw the words "red fist", I got it from that perspective: that the punch should should be full of chi, strong, punishing, and decisive.

mickey

[bawang]

red fist means hook to the temple. hooks cut face. red fist = blood covered fist

ming dynasty performance fights for money continues after bleeding = hong quan

[Tainan Mantis]

In some cases, h0mophones were used interchangeably in CMA names.

Possibly it could also mean intent, meaning to draw blood/kill. I remember a long time ago reading a CMA book in Taiwan that had a saying that translates, "white knife leaves; red knife comes back".

Just my .02.
Jimbo and Bawang thanks for your input. It seems you are coming to similar conclusions, that the fist is named after the blood on your hands.
I don't see that as the intended meaning after reading the references.

Mickey, I often tell the kids to squeeze their fists tight until it is red too.

[Tainan Mantis]

red fist means hook to the temple. hooks cut face. red fist = blood covered fist

ming dynasty performance fights for money continues after bleeding = hong quan

Thanks, could you tell me where I might find this information of performance fights during the Ming?
I recall once that you had come up with a hypothesis that the word hong was descended from chang-long. Don't know if I remember correctly.

[Tainan Mantis]

At this point, just following where the facts are leading me, hong refers to flowers of spring or falling leaves of autumn.
The point being that this punch knocks you into unconsciousness.
General Qi has several sentences which hint at this such as.

Overtake him with a palm and he'll see a sky full of stars,
趕上一掌滿天星

When struck he is surely in danger of losing consciousness.
他受打必定昏危。

There is nothing in General Qi's writings to hint that red means the flowers of spring or falling leaves of autumn, but within the oldest books of mantis, from before the time of Liang Xuexiang, it is repeatedly emphasized that the described strikes will knock the opponent into unconsciousness and when they wake up it will be a new season- the idea being that they were out for a long while.

Here is one example:


I immediately pull back my hand and return to snatch the yue point attacking that which is unprepared. Injuring the opponent’s yue point he bends his waist, I attack with the head immediately charging my head into his face and knocking him into the ‘red peaches of next spring.’

[mickey]

Greetings,

Tainan Mantis,

This is a long shot because I do not have the book, but I suspect the posture may be in it. Do you have Two Road Long Fist by Kao Tao Sheng (Gao Daosheng)?

Also, the meaning "sweep" is a little unclear. I strongly suspect it refers to the wind as in a sweeping gust of wind; so, essentially, it is a parry-- a sweeping parry followed by a punch.


mickey

[bawang]

At this point, just following where the facts are leading me, hong refers to flowers of spring or falling leaves of autumn.


lol


mantis

lol

[mickey]

Greetings bawang,

In your opinion, would the words Sweep, Red Fist correspond to the moves White Crane Spreads Wings followed by Brush Knee in Yang Tai Chi?

mickey

[Tainan Mantis]

Greetings,

Tainan Mantis,

This is a long shot because I do not have the book, but I suspect the posture may be in it. Do you have Two Road Long Fist by Kao Tao Sheng (Gao Daosheng)?

Also, the meaning "sweep" is a little unclear. I strongly suspect it refers to the wind as in a sweeping gust of wind; so, essentially, it is a parry-- a sweeping parry followed by a punch.


mickey
Mickey,
I do have that book by Gao.

To better define sweep.
Sweep appears three times in the form.
*掃

16. ....The cu ghost foot forces itself in first, Add a turning front sweep and
apply red fist,
鬼蹴腳搶人先著，補前掃轉上紅拳，

20. ....
See his stance is unsteady,
Knock him down with a rear sweep.
看他立站不穩，後掃一跌分明。

The 28th definition is especially clear that we are talking about a sweep kick.


28. The tiger riding maneuver shifts and sends out the foot, While he is
unaware of your leg, Left and right sweep in rapid succession, Drop the
hands and cut with the shears is the way to change.
二十八 跨虎勢
跨虎勢挪移發腳，要腿去不使他知，左右跟掃一連施，失手剪
刀分易。

[Tainan Mantis]

lol



lol

Thanks for pointing out the poorly worded sentence.
Searching through Ming era books on the military we find seven books that mention the martial techniques of Zhao Kuangyin.

Of those, I have only found hong 紅 in one of them- Qi Jiguang's book.
He mention it five times. Here is a short translation feel free to correct it or "lol."

*紅

十六式 鬼蹴腳 鬼蹴腳搶人先著，補前掃轉上紅拳，背弓顛披揭起，穿心肘靠
妙難傳。
16...Add a front sweep and turn up with red fist,

十七式 指當勢 指當勢是箇丁法，他難進我好向前，踢膝滾躦上面，急回步顛短
紅拳。
17...Quickly return the step upset with short red fist.

十八式 獸頭勢 獸頭勢如牌挨進，恁快腳遇我慌忙，低驚高取他難防，接短披紅
衝上。
18....Connect with short pi and red rushing.

二十五式 雀地龍 雀地龍下盤腿法，前揭起後進紅拳，他退我雖顛補，衝來短當休
延。
25...Lift in front the rear advances the red fist,

二十七式 鷹翅 鷹翅側身挨進，快腳走不留停，追上穿庄一腿，要加剪劈推紅。
27...You must add cutting, cleaving, pushing and red.

Number 27 I think is especially indicative of red not meaning blood.
Interesting is the grouping of threes in 16 through 18.

So hong is used five ways



轉上紅拳，
and turn up with red fist,

顛短紅拳。
... upset (with) short red fist.

披紅衝上。
...pi red rushing up.

前揭起後進紅拳
...advance red fist,

要加剪劈推紅。
...You must add cutting, cleaving, pushing and red.

Since many martial styles can trace part of what they do to this very book we may find something interesting by looking at the old manuals of the various styles.
My area is "mantis."

If others with access to rare or old materials could bring up information from their respective styles it might help to clarify.

[mickey]

Hi Tainan Mantis,

Thank you for taking the time to go into more details about the move. So, it is not a parry and strike.

In the book by Gao, I think there is a posture where he is holding a bow and arrow stance and he is holding his hand up, palm open and facing his face. If this is the form that I saw printed elsewhere, it would be in the first 15 photos. This is the position where the chi is brought into the hands. In one of the issues of 'Martial Arts of China", it was referred to as the Crimson Palm (going from memory here).

mickey

[Tainan Mantis]

Also, the meaning "sweep" is a little unclear.


mickey

Here is a picture of the Ghost Cu foot. You can see that he is in a good position for a sweep kick


16...Add a front sweep and turn up with red fist,

[mickey]

Yes, I see,

The Gao posture was only to give reference to what may create the red fist. While i see an internal component, I think we are all in agreement in its application.

Thank you,

mickey

[bawang]

Thanks for pointing out the poorly worded sentence.
Searching through Ming era books on the military we find seven books that mention the martial techniques of Zhao Kuangyin.

Of those, I have only found hong 紅 in one of them- Qi Jiguang's book.
He mention it five times. Here is a short translation feel free to correct it or "lol."


Since many martial styles can trace part of what they do to this very book we may find something interesting by looking at the old manuals of the various styles.
My area is "mantis."



there is nothing to discuss because red fist means hook punch in long fist. its a basic common term. you dont train longfist and dont know the codewords

[Tainan Mantis]

there is nothing to discuss because red fist means hook punch in long fist. its a basic common term. you don't train longfist and dont know the codewords

In longfist hook punch is often called gua-er 貫耳 or pierce the ear. In Taiji hook punch is also called gua-er.

I have trained Longfist and have seen hong quan meaning hook punch.
Would you mind stating your teacher or style?

[bawang]

In longfist hook punch is often called gua-er 貫耳 or pierce the ear. In Taiji hook punch is also called gua-er.

I have trained Longfist and have seen hong quan meaning hook punch.
Would you mind stating your teacher or style?

i learned from some guy called ma yuan and his son 3 hr drive from my home village.

in hongquan manuals it says right on the first page "hong quan is a hook punch" LOL