Skill or Conditioning; what's more important in a real fight?

[Merryprankster]

My money is on conditioning.

[shinwa]

Hm I have a really hrd time with questions like "whats more importan than...". On one hand skill can allow you to end a fight quickly. Most real fights don't last very long due to cops or everyday citizens who break it up. At the ame time in the even t you're fighting one of those rare long battles conditioning could save your life. But does high conditioning matter when you have low skill? And Vice BVersa. I think they're both equally important, maybe skill has a slight edge.

Personally I see conditioning as a skill, but i see where you're coming from.

[jimmy23]

hard to seperate the two. I lean towards conditioning, just because it will allow you to take a lot damage, but then again, witout the skill to put a guy away, conditioning may just mean you take a longer beating.


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[Xebsball]

You always need both. I cant choose one...

But if you choose conditioning remember there are weapons on real fights too. Conditioning wont save you from a knife to your throat, for example.

----------------------------
You brake my elbow i put your face in s.hit! HA HA HA, how about that, HA HA!

[Apprentice]

Lets think of these attributes(which they are) like video game attributes...

We'll just use these two, if you have

Skill-0%
Conditioning-100% (of how much genetics will allow)

You'll be conditioned to the max your genetics will allow without the help of drugs(for healths sake)...your body will last what will seem like forever, you will be extremly difficult to harm, and you will naturally be able to move quicker because of your shape(i know people like this, but they still dont have the technique)...and you will be stronger, so your hits will still hurt hard...and the average person knows some fighting techniques, and the more you are conditioned, the more confident, so you would be a confident fighter...able to cause harm...


and if your...

Skill-100% (as your brain and muscle coordination will allow)
Conditioning-0%

If you have 100% skill, your body will be able to move naturally faster than usual because your muscles would had practice the movements in order to gain 100% skill...and if you have skill, u must have knowledge on how to hit people, and where, therefore causing the most amount of pain possible, with miminum force...also able to harm greatly


So you see, Conditioning and Skill are both Xtremly important, and equally important, The better you excel in the two, the better you will be...

Xcept, me personally, i think Skill has a slight edge...because it has another Xtremly important aspect...which is knowledge, and knowledge is power...which i think is bonus power as opposed to someone who does not have knowledge...the mental aspect of fighting gives an EXTRA edge besides the rest, so i beleive it has a slight edge of importance...


Sorry if this doesn't make sense, i dont knwo if i explained it right, but i hope u understand they are both Xtremly important almost equally

"True victory is giving all of yourself without regret"-Ryu

"Your best move is the move you regret not doing"-Fei Long

"Are you prepared to fight today? Someone else is as we speak"-Apprentice

[Budokan]

Neither. It's heart.

K. Mark Hoover

[Wongsifu]

well obviously its conditioning, but what you deem as conditioning is different to what i see as conditioning.

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

[Wongsifu]

however on another note heart is more important , yi dan er li san gogn fu ;)

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

[Castlevania]

This is a good question.
Here we go!

Conditioning won´t help you when you receive blows to your vital/vulnerable areas,it´s game over.

You don´t have to have lots of power to damage opponent´s vital areas so I would say that the skill is million times more important.

[Merryprankster]

Of all the answers so far, I think I like Budokan's the best; but I only mostly agree with him.

In order to get in proper condition, it takes an incredible amount of heart. It takes day in and day out challenging of your body, over time, to get in peak shape. That takes a great deal of mental toughness.

However, I can have all the heart in the world, but if the body won't go it won't go. Plus, being fatigued, in the words of Vince Lombardi, makes cowards of us all... and that might be the truest saying ever uttered.

Skill, on the other hand, can be developed over time, with relatively little impact to your body. You can be highly skilled, but if you've never pushed your body beyond, say, a two minute round of sparring or a couple of two minute rounds, then it seems possible to me that you haven't developed that mental toughness aspect.

Every person has a rudimentary knowledge of fighting. It may not be pretty; it may not be skilled, but all of us can try to evade a kick or block a punch or tackle our opponent. In a fight, I believe the more conditioned person has a better chance of controlling and surviving the adrenaline dump simply because their body is used to the stress. I don't know how many times I've seen a person who is in bad shape only be able to last 45 seconds to a minute and a half because they gas out. In a fight, that can get you killed. So can lack of skill... but becoming slower and slower and more winded is FAR more dangerous, to my mind, than a lack of skill.

I know adrenaline MIGHT keep them moving, but adrenaline can drain you too, depending on how your body responds to it.

I know this is all a big what if... it's purely hypothetical, but I think discussions like this are useful for exploring what we do and why we do it. I certainly don't mean it out of malice or wanting to **** folks off.

Wongsifu, what do you mean by conditioning?

Shinwa, of course you need both, and they certainly shouldn't be seperate, and I too, have difficulty with "what's more important." Neither is more important, but if you had to choose one... if it were either or, what do you consider would be your choice?

Castlevania-define vital areas. Every martial artist I've ever met defines them differently :)

[Repulsive Monkey]

..its obvious that its skill.
If a sword is as sharp as a razor and can never be broken its useless with out sthe skill to use it. Yang cheng-fu used to use the sick end of a duster to defeat his top students who used real swords. Skill is necessary in a fight I suppose not conditioning.

[Merryprankster]

Repulsive;

It's not so obvious that it's skill. Many people were more technically skilled as boxers than Rocky Marciano, but the guy's work ethic was phenomenal, and he beat them. The fact that he punched like a freight train didn't hurt :) But still, from a "boxing," perspective, he was more of a swarmer and brawler, rather than, say, sugar ray robinson, who could BOX.

[Wongsifu]

you see in a sense its weird to say skill or conditioning because in kung fu your skill may be your conditioning, for example , take marciano as you put it , he wasnt skillful but he could hit like a mule and was conditioned , whereas people who were more skilled in boxing than him still lost because they lacked conditioning.

However in kung fu we would just say his skill is that of delivering hard blows at the right time.

its like we would say that a muay thai fighter has good conditioning of the shins, or we would say he is skilled (jueji or kung ) at hard shin attacks.

so skill in a way is inseperable from conditioning , unless you just mean conditioning as in running and cardio in which case , i believe that conditioning isnt as important as skill because a skillfull fighter would knock you out before 3 rounds are up-...,

i see it better to say is it more important to be strong or fast, have good hands or good legs , have good cardio or knock out power.

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

[jimmy23]

"However in kung fu we would just say his skill is that of delivering hard blows at the right time"

excelleny point, wongsifu!


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[Merryprankster]

Wongsifu,

I certainly see your point, but I am not sure I agree with it. I think Marciano was a poor example. A boxing match is not a fight, and to say his opponents lost because of conditioning isn't exactly right.... some of his opponents lost because he battered their forearms so badly they could not hold their arms up anymore and got KO'ed. Not really a conditioning failure, and certainly not something you would see in a fight.

When I say conditioning, I am not referring to just one system of the body, I'm referring to them all.

Take a good, not great college linebacker at a good, not great, Division II school. This guy has some size, strength and speed.... good physical tools, and is used to handling the adrenaline surge that comes with stressful situations.

So now he's up against a theoretical human who is around the same weight, nothing really resembling a paunch, and pretty skilled due to years of accumulated training, but who's conditioning is, perhaps, barely average. He can make it through a couple of 3 minute rounds of friendly, all-out, sparring (ie, you're not trying to KILL each other, but you are pushing yourself), with a minute or so rest between, a couple or three times a week; but when he's done it tires him out enough that a good night's sleep is needed.

I'm not calling the win here, but I think our linebacker has the potential give our Martial Artist some serious opposition.

If we want to take it to extremes, we could discuss somebody like Juoko Ahola (2 time world's strongest man) and similar sized, not too pudgy, extremely skilled human with a level of body system conditioning similar to the one I described above.

I think Juoko could scare somebody a bit there too.

[Kevin]

If you practice karate, conditioning. If you practice Aikido, skill.

Jujutsu, Ninpo, Chugoku Kenpo

[Wongsifu]

merryp you know what you are saying makes total snse , its actually what most chinese modern wushu guys claim as their advantage.
They are rigourously trained their stamina is phenomenal their flexibility is trememndous and their speed is blinding, but they lack real power.
however they are good in the ring because they have all the prerequisites needed apart from the actual power , this is as i see it what gives the advantage to a san shou player over a kickboxer the fact that in china modern wushu dancing and forms go hand in hand many times with san shou. I look at my teacher and if he didnt do th ewushu he wouldnt have that edge.

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

[Budokan]

You won't reach the conditioning level necessary or the skill level if you don't have the heart to slug it out and train every day, over and over and over.

Conditioning and skill stem from the heart of the MA, unless he's a prodigy. And even then he will still have to have the wherewithal to learn and train in the techniques inherent in his skill.

Heart comes first; everything else follows, IMO.

K. Mark Hoover

[Wongsifu]

yeah budokan we agree with you youve said that 2 tiems already :D :D

now time to move on to the next part of the question but what do you think is more important skill or conditioning. (notice i dont say heart in that sentence)

;)

just kidding with you

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

[jimmy23]

Budokan makes a good point, excellent thread


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[shinwa]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Shinwa, of course you need both, and they certainly shouldn't be seperate, and I too, have difficulty with "what's more important." Neither is more important, but if you had to choose one... if it were either or, what do you consider would be your choice? [/quote]

In that case I'd choose skill. I'd still be able to kick the crap out of people if need be. If I were to choose conditioning alone I wouldn't be a fighter, I'd be an athlete running circles around some strecth of dirt :p

[shinwa]

WWong Sifu that' an excellent point about modern wushu. I've always viewed it as an incredible way for training attributes like speed, stamina, control, etc etc etc. Much more fun and applicable then running laps at that.

[Merryprankster]

shinwa,

Running laps is the WORST kind of conditioning to do for fighting... LSD-- long slow distance, is the bane of fighters. You have to do explosive, interval type stuff... 3 minutes on, one minute off... 30 sec all out, 30 sec off. That kind of thing. The days of miles and miles of roadwork is pretty much over.

That said, I think I finally figured out what I'm thinking of.

What seperates athletes from others is not just heart, or work ethic, but kinesthetic awareness. Kinesthetic awareness is that blend of power, timing, flow, coordination, etc. that all of us train for. Kinesthetic awareness is what allows the boxer to hit his target, the gymnast to execute flips, the dancer to move with grace and power.

Kinesthetic awareness is innate, but I'll theorize this: it can be trained to a higher level through something I'll kinesthetic conditioning.

Kinesthetic conditioning, to be optimal, must be functional:

It must involve multiple muscle groups.
It must involve timing.
It must involve coordination.
It must challenge the aerobic system.
It must challenge the anaerobic system.
It must challenge the neuromuscular system.

Different activities obviously have different effects... Long, slow distance running certainly improves your aerobic system for long slow distance, but does little to challenge your timing, coordination, or anaerobic system. Olympic weightlifting obviously challenges everything but your aerobic system. Golf makes you into a fat *****. :p

People with a high level of Kinesthetic awareness, whether brought about by genetics or training, are potentially dangerous opponents, regardless of "fighting skill level," because they are so aware of how their body is moving or not moving in relation to their opponent. IE, a kinesthetically aware person, may not know how to throw a great punch or to block properly, but they will probably be in tune enough with the situation to have the right timing to make things difficult, perhaps dangerous. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that if you step in while somebody tries to kick you, you can take the power out of the kick and grab the leg.

They won't think of it in those terms, because they aren't fighters or MA types, but they'll be doing it anyway, by intuition. They won't be NEARLY as good as somebody who trains for self-defense, but they will be more dangerous than most, never-the-less.

A college linebacker, Juoko Ahola, an Olympic Weightlifter... all are dangerous opponents because of their kinesthetic awareness.

Skill without kinesthetic awareness is quite possible. How many of you have ever met that dedicated guy who can do ALL the moves in the air, can explain every little detail, can hit the pads with alarming force, knows exactly what to do and why.... and has trouble executing on a resisting opponent? They have rotten kinesthetic awareness, for whatever reason. This person, despite their skill level is NOT nearly so dangerous an opponent as somebody who is very kinesthetically aware.

This is what I meant by conditioning: Kinesthetic Awareness. And I will take Kinesthetic Awareness over skill any day of the week.

Of course, by training MA's you train both fighting skills and your kinesthetic awareness, putting you one up on the rigorous athlete :)

[shinwa]

That's where the problem comes for me, all of what you just described is what I classify as skill. Being aware of your body movement and your opponents body movement is skill in my eyes. Martial arts without those abilities is simply technique. Not skill at all. Skill and conditioning are pretty much inseperable in my eyes. A skill in something like holding a horse stance for 45 minutes takes incredible leg strength, practing the movements and techniques over and over to develop skill builds endurance strength, and speed. Etcetera etcetra. I just have a REALLY hard time seperating the two.

[sniper]

In my opinion, skill and conditioning do go hand in hand, but there are different stages in a fight where one is more of a deciding factor than the other.
i.e. If the fight stays up in the kicking, boxing, or trapping range, then skill definately has the upper hand and will most often decide who walks away and calls the ambulance for the other guy. However, if the fight goes to the ground, and I realize how important skill and technique are there, but fighting on the ground requires so much energy, and it takes so much out of a fighter so fast, that I think conditioning is more important there. No matter how much skill you have on the gound...or standing, once you are exhausted, you skill and technique go in the pooper. (that is also where heart comes into play)

[Merryprankster]

Shinwa, I appreciate what you are saying; I guess I look at somebody like a linebacker, and they are skilled in football, but not in fighting, at least, not as skilled as somebody who studies it; but their kinesthetic awareness makes them dangerous, nonetheless. I think that is where I am drawing the distinction; that regardless of where it comes from--football, shot-put, gymnastics--awareness is the more important of the two concepts. I certainly understand how you view skill as inseperable though: In your eyes, martial skill can't be gained without the accompanying awareness.

sniper-- in regards to the ground being an energy drain; it doesn't have to be, I don't think.

[old jong]

I could say that some arts need more counditionning than others and some need more precision skills,at various levels depending on the practitioner.
A 60 years old hard style guy would have to fight more to keep a founctionnal conditionning than say a 60 years old aikidoka or wing chunner. A 60 years old sumoka cant be,they dont live long enough!
So, it is relative to say the least. ;)

Les paroles s'envolent.
Les écrits restent!...

[Wongsifu]

old jong great post ,

also i would really tend to agree here with merry prankster one thing i hate about my sifus methods is the jogging he thinks its soo important , he doesnt understand that its more important to improve on muscle twitch rather than slow the whole body down and move slowly for 20 ,minutes!!!

Im ofrever trying to explain that better to sprint 1 km 100 metres at a time rather than jog 10 km slowly at once.

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

[straight blast]

What is yin without yang? I would have to say 50-50. But for the purposes of this question I'd have to go for skill. Why? Let me expand on the topic.
When I was sparring Muay Thai my conditoning was pretty good. I could take hits, leg kicks, knees, the lot. Assuming that I didn't take a KO power one of course. But there was this one dude... He was real fast. And his skill was much better than mine. I simply couldn't hit him enough to beat him. He'd just smack me around until I was beaten. If I had had the skill I'd have gotten him. Which I did after a year or so. Plus the big instructor. If I'd had the skill to get into his weaker zone (infighting-he's a tall guy with long arms) I would have done much better.
But my overall opinion is that they should balance each other out. Yin & Yang. ;)

"Forfeit the game
Before somebody else takes you out of the frame
And puts your name to shame
Cover up your face
You can't run the race
The pace is too fast,
You just won't last!"

[stubbs]

my kungfu skills condition my body.

"satisfaction loses,and humility gains"

[Merryprankster]

That's not helpful stubbs. Explain how.

I'm not saying they don't, it's just that it doesn't make sense to me. are you saying that the skills themselves condition your body or that training your skills to improve them conditions your body?

[shinwa]

Yah I believe and was taught that the skills themselves(properly trained) do condition the body. You have to remember, according to popular belief Kung Fu was founded to strengthen the bodies of monks so they could stay awake during meditation and work and what have you. To build endurance and discipline all of these stances and poistures ere developed (as well as fighting motions). And during the old days you wouldn't even learn fighting techniques until you've spent AGES conditioning your body through the various stances and what have you. I hear some schools had students spend a year doing nothing but various stances.

It's like the best way to build endurance for kicking, is kicking itself. You can't get anymore of a "sport specific" excercise than that. Best way to condition for grappling, is tons of grappling against a live partner. Cross training is good but no method of cross training will use all of the muscles you use during your art other than the art will itself. As far as I know anyway.

Great topic.

[Budokan]

Well, it's really hard to play under the parameters you set down because neither skill nor conditioning is worth beans without spirit. Period. However, if you must have an answer to an inherently limiting question, then I would have to say that if both are equal then they negate each other. If one is of sufficiently high level in regards to the other (example: skill over conditioning) then it beats the lesser in the hands of any average martial artists.

K. Mark Hoover

[stubbs]

sorry merryprankster, i didn't have much time.

basicaly what shinwa said. to develope your skills you have to practice your skills and techniques. by praticing your skills you're developing and conditioning your body, for example when you spar you make contact and that, over time conditions your body.

also, if you look at two different people that have studied a different martial art for many years you can see diffrences in their body. for example, my aikido intructor has wrists like tree trunks because of the amount of locks and holds he's been perfecting over the years, while my kung fu instructor is alot lighter and agile from his difference in training. in some cases practicing different skills develope your body in ways to suit your style's techniques.

conditioning your body by using your skills can mutually benefit a training partner aswell. in the style that i train in we do a blocking drill which we sometimes go over. this is basicaly two people blocking each others blocks. and after about 10 minutes or so you'll find your arms are red from all the clashing of arms. see? that skill exercise also conditions.

hope that clears up my previous post.
stubbs

"satisfaction loses,and humility gains"

[Merryprankster]

Thanks stubbs it does; I was trying to acertain if it was the skills themselves or the PRACTICE of those skills that provides the conditioning. You've answered that it is the practice of those skills. Thanks.

Budokan;

I've said repeatedly that proper conditioning takes heart.

That said, if you really think it's not the size of the dog in the fight but the size of the fight in the dog, you're mistaken.

First, poor condition robs you of spirit. I don't care how much heart you started with, by the time you've been beat down and you're tired and exhausted, the spirit has ebbed... in some people, more than others, but you are not as willing to go on as you were before. That's the truth. Your will to fight diminishes. To reiterate, "Fatigue makes cowards of us all."

Secondly, if I have a highly spirited 100 lb woman and a 250 lb, reasonably spirited, decently in shape, adult male, I'm still betting on the adult male. I don't care HOW much fight is in the woman, that 150 lb difference is going to make all the difference in the world. Fighting spirit doesn't count for much if you can't harm your opponent.

Lastly, the question was designed to be limiting. By asking questions like this, and reducing, or ignoring the other variables (the famous, "all other things being equal") you create an environment in which discussion about concepts is direct, uncluttered and comparative. Afterwards, the conclusions can be reintegrated. I KNOW skill and conditioning are not the only factors, but I can't talk about skill, conditioning, time of day, level of anxiety, heart, intelligence, situational awareness, stress, etc all at once.

[jimmy23]

great thread! I kind of miss all the MMA vs Kung Fu threads though, now I have to pay attention when I read


"You guys have obviously never done any real fighting if you are mocking spitting"
Spinning Backfist

[Merryprankster]

Budokan,

I just read my responding post, and it sounds a little harsh to my ears. No disrespect is intended... I'm just trying to present my thoughts in a logical manner. Thanks for your input!

[SantaClaus]

SUCCESS AND FAILURE, WHICH IS MORE DAMAGING?

[Sharky]

i'd sit on the fence usually. but i am gonna go for conditioning. why? because skill is obviously important, but think of how in real fights, EVERYTHING goes wrong, and you usually end up using muscle to get out of the situation. banana peels, concealed weapons, gravel on the floor, getting popped on the jaw, you're whole plan goes out of the window.

however you could argue that dealing with the problems is skill. and that if you hand skill you wouldn't do anything wrong.

so it's a bit of a batty question.

=================================
What we really need is chicks with a whole new kinda orifice - Fish

Sharky, I should expect this level of immaturity from you after seeing your post titled "Hm." regarding the woman that lives next door to you. I think everyone who unfortuneatly read that post is a bit more ignorant now for doing so. - Spectre

All i wanted was some RICE CAKES! Now? WE MUST BATTLE.