Proof that Ninjitsu doesn't work against singular attackers.

[pazman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYQiPRUu7b0

[wiz cool c]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecpBHW94w2Q&list=UUGC4xThGxe-kEx1JXUs9TcANinjutus fighting in a mma competition is like a boxer going into a TKD tournament and only being allowed to kick, he can’t use any of his arsenal, strategy or anything learned through the art. but if you do ninjutsu and want to do this type of competing simply you must train in their ways, and seriously. Real ninjutsu is for self defense and self protection , not an mma match .there are so many differences. For example I have a BB in Ninjutsu, but have been out of it for at least a decade ,and also train in sport fighting. As you can see from the clips



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBbjnyuG7hs&index=16&list=UUGC4xThGxe-kEx1JXUs9TcA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6WRefA5u5I&index=46&list=UUGC4xThGxe-kEx1JXUs9TcA

[Wuxia007]

I've trained in Bujinkan Ninjitsu for a little bit over ten years ago. I did not see anything that implied ninjitsu in that footage. Both fighters were using MMA style.
Granted, in pretty much every YouTube video of martial arts fights/sparring, once the gloves go on, all distinct styles fade away leaving only kickboxing and/or mma techniques.
Furthermore, you can't judge the validity of an entire style based on one or two examples. Everyone fights, trains, and improve at different rates. You have great CMA fighters and you have poor CMA fighters. You have great MMA fighters and you have terrible ones. Great ninjitsu fighters and terrible ones. So on and so forth.

[wenshu]

There is no such thing as Ninjitsu, thankfully there doess not seem to be any shortage of people who like to walk into MMA gyms saying they are ninjas.

[wiz cool c]

There is no such thing as Ninjitsu, thankfully there doess not seem to be any shortage of people who like to walk into MMA gyms saying they are ninjas.

Tell Hatsumi, and Shoto Tanemura .”um excuse me Mr. Hatsumi and Tanemurua there is this guy in America he says your 900 year old tradition doesn’t exists on a kung fu message board” Judo is just a myth too.

[pazman]

900 year old tradition

ninja please.

[wiz cool c]

I am not only a Ninja, I am an American Ninja living in China

[sanjuro_ronin]

There is no such thing as Ninjitsu, thankfully there doess not seem to be any shortage of people who like to walk into MMA gyms saying they are ninjas.

What you mean to say is that what passes for ninjutsu nowadays has very little (if anything) to do with the ninjutsu training of the Koryu systems.

[wiz cool c]

What you mean to say is that what passes for ninjutsu nowadays has very little (if anything) to do with the ninjutsu training of the Koryu systems.



how would you know, were you around hundreds of years ago to see what they did? Hatsumi, and Tanemura are not some wack job running around in a ski mask and hiding behind bushes in their back yards. Hatsumi is a proven grandmaster of several styles, so even though some organization didn’t recognize his ninjutsu styles as legit cause he couldn’t provide some scrolls doesn’t mean ****. If a style is 900 years old and secret, than it makes sense he wouldn’t have the scrolls in his possession. I studied Tang Soo Do for 7 years when I was younger,and had a certificate for a 1 gup rank, but don’t have it now. does that mean I didn’t learn Tang Soo Do?

[BigPandaBear]

how would you know, were you around hundreds of years ago to see what they did? Hatsumi, and Tanemura are not some wack job running around in a ski mask and hiding behind bushes in their back yards. Hatsumi is a proven grandmaster of several styles, so even though some organization didn’t recognize his ninjutsu styles as legit cause he couldn’t provide some scrolls doesn’t mean ****. If a style is 900 years old and secret, than it makes sense he wouldn’t have the scrolls in his possession. I studied Tang Soo Do for 7 years when I was younger,and had a certificate for a 1 gup rank, but don’t have it now. does that mean I didn’t learn Tang Soo Do?

How exactly is Hatsumi a "proven" grandmaster? Furthermore, how do we know if Hatsumi isn't simply scamming all of you Ninjutsu followers out of money? I've never seen the man fight anyone except his loyal cult worshipers who will do whatever he wants them to do. Put him on the mat with a black belt in Judo or Bjj and he'd get smashed in seconds.

Ninjas were simply samurai who performed espionage. There isn't even any evidence that actual self-contained "Ninjutsu" styles even existed. The ninjutsu found in Japanese MA are subsets of existing Jujutsu styles. In other words, if you were a samurai warrior, you would study swordsmanship, horse riding, archery, unarmed combat, and ninjutsu.

I can just imagine the Japanese sitting around laughing at all those white guys coming to the Honbu to dress up like ninjas and gain fabricated belt rankings. The very fact that we have tons of 15th dans in the Bujinkan should be a big red flag.

[wiz cool c]

6 of the 9 styles taught by Hatsumi are recognized by the koryu in Japan as legitimate traditional styles. The other stuff I already stated my opinion on. And whether Japanese are laughing about bujinkan people training in traditional martial arts wearing black gis,if only you knew what the average Chinese person thinks of guys,lets say like you that wear traditional Chinese clothes and do kung fu think.Or what modern sport fighters think about people swinging around Chinese swords and staffs these days. The average person in china, specially adults could care less about kung fu these days.So I don’t live my life based on what other people think, if I did I wouldn’t be living and training in China. Or I would be living in china[not studying kung fu] but would be wearing a dark blue suit and collared shirt have a government regulated square haircut, play badminton and watch women’s drama shows in my free time

As far as hatsumi fighting anyone that does not make the tradition legit or not. Maybe it does by modern MMJ standers, but by the ninja tradition was not built to be a competitive art. and you got your history little confused as well.

[Wuxia007]

How exactly is Hatsumi a "proven" grandmaster? Furthermore, how do we know if Hatsumi isn't simply scamming all of you Ninjutsu followers out of money? I've never seen the man fight anyone except his loyal cult worshipers who will do whatever he wants them to do. Put him on the mat with a black belt in Judo or Bjj and he'd get smashed in seconds.

With all due respect, I'm not entirely sure that's a fair assessment. With that logic, the same can be said for almost every grandmaster and/or instructor.

[BigPandaBear]

6 of the 9 styles taught by Hatsumi are recognized by the koryu in Japan as legitimate traditional styles.

And those styles are nothing more than Jujutsu styles. There's nothing distinctly "Ninja" about them.


The other stuff I already stated my opinion on. And whether Japanese are laughing about bujinkan people training in traditional martial arts wearing black gis,if only you knew what the average Chinese person thinks of guys,lets say like you that wear traditional Chinese clothes and do kung fu think.Or what modern sport fighters think about people swinging around Chinese swords and staffs these days. The average person in china, specially adults could care less about kung fu these days.So I don’t live my life based on what other people think, if I did I wouldn’t be living and training in China. Or I would be living in china[not studying kung fu] but would be wearing a dark blue suit and collared shirt have a government regulated square haircut, play badminton and watch women’s drama shows in my free time

What makes you think I'm a Kung Fu practitioner?


As far as hatsumi fighting anyone that does not make the tradition legit or not. Maybe it does by modern MMJ standers, but by the ninja tradition was not built to be a competitive art. and you got your history little confused as well.

Then what's the point of it? Ninjas get their clock cleaned by legit martial arts practitioners (because they don't spar), and there's no use in modern society for feudal era Japanese spies.

I guess it's fun to play pretend Ninja warrior right?

[BigPandaBear]

With all due respect, I'm not entirely sure that's a fair assessment. With that logic, the same can be said for almost every grandmaster and/or instructor.

Not really. The founder of Judo produced students who decimated the martial art establishment in Japan. The founders of Bjj produced students who decimated the martial art establishment in the 90's.

What did the students of Hatsumi do?

[wiz cool c]

So if Grandmaster Chen Xiaowang students don't decimate other style's students guess he isn't a grand master of Taijiquan, and if William Cheung is student's don't decimate of style's student ,he isn't a grandmaster of wing chun,this conversation is silly.

And what kind of sick weirdo hangs out on a kung fu message board and doesn’t even do kung fu;] just kidding ,but really you got way too much free time if that is the case. Already discussed the whole sport/self defense thing ,over and over

[wiz cool c]

here are some constructive ways you can spend your free time, other than worrying about what traditional martial art people like and what color gi they wear. 1# the library, it’s quiet relaxing , can read and learn something new. Most of all it is free. 2# depending on what the climate is like where you live, take a walk. good cardio vascular exercise, relieves stress, and again won’t cost you a dime. 3# write a book. Just get a pen and some paper, think of an idea no one has done before, and start writing.

[MightyB]

THAT WAS NOT NINJITSU!!! Everyone knows that Ninjitsu fights like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVLxtSZ4sYM

[David Jamieson]

pssst.

All "ninja" styles are pretty much made up in the last 50 years or so.

Anyone who actually was a ninja in samurai controlled japan would have learned any number of different things as far as how to kill and how to commit subterfuge goes.

Oh sure, there are some who will point to old texts and legends etc, but there really never was any singular ninja art / style. Not historically speaking anyway. I mean, these people were assassins who quite often did dirty deeds that samurai could not do because of their being bound by code. IE: A Samurai could not openly kill his master. So they'd get Ninja to do it.

Fascinating the variety of methods used. But with the Samurai waving "so long Japan" so too went the Ninja who served them in their nefarious wants.

[MightyB]

Ninja is a state of mind.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-jlaN5JKviHw/UI2ZBHZFr8I/AAAAAAAAJDs/yCy8KHYWPS8/s1600/089-copy.jpg

[wiz cool c]

For both side of the argument it is difficult to prove one way or the other,. There are those that say Ninja didn't do this and that a long time ago and those {that actually train in the art] that say they do. Who knows for sure? Was anyone on this message board in ancient Japan at the time of the historical ninja?

For me it is simple, Masaaki Hatsumi is a well know master of 6 historically proven authentic Japanese styles, he learned them from To****sugu Takamatsu. A grandmaster of 6 traditional styles wouldn't need to add three fake ninja ryus to his curriculum. And if you have actually trained in the Bujinkan for any amount of time you can feel the authenticness of such style. Beside creating a time machine and traveling back in time there would be no way to be 100% sure the ninja methods Hatsumi or his teacher Takamatsu taught him were actually done by the ninja, but based on the fact that Hatsumi is teaching 6 proven authentic Japanese traditional arts mixed in with three ninja ryus is enough to convince me. There is a lot more proof here that the Ninja styles are authentic than the latter , someone saying ”hey the ninja styles are fake”

Now do these techniques work in modern time? I have used the methods taught in Ninjutsu several times to defend myself as well as avoid danger. And in the ever changing times ,who knows we might need to use such skills as being able to move in the dark, move silently and survive in the wilderness, not to mention first aid and using various object as improvised weapons.

[wiz cool c]

[QUOTE=MightyB;1278020]Ninja is a state of mind.QUOTE]
Ninja is a state of mind. anyone know the chinese name for Ninja9187

[rett2]

And in the ever changing times ,who knows we might need to use such skills as being able to move in the dark, move silently and survive in the wilderness, not to mention first aid and using various object as improvised weapons.

Yeah, the ninjas clearly have a monopoly on those skills and training.

[rett2]

THAT WAS NOT NINJITSU!!! Everyone knows that Ninjitsu fights like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVLxtSZ4sYM

Can you post the continuation?

The ninja had true kung fu. True kung fu means staying in animal character even when you're running away.

[David Jamieson]

For both side of the argument it is difficult to prove one way or the other,. There are those that say Ninja didn't do this and that a long time ago and those {that actually train in the art] that say they do. Who knows for sure? Was anyone on this message board in ancient Japan at the time of the historical ninja?

For me it is simple, Masaaki Hatsumi is a well know master of 6 historically proven authentic Japanese styles, he learned them from To****sugu Takamatsu. A grandmaster of 6 traditional styles wouldn't need to add three fake ninja ryus to his curriculum. And if you have actually trained in the Bujinkan for any amount of time you can feel the authenticness of such style. Beside creating a time machine and traveling back in time there would be no way to be 100% sure the ninja methods Hatsumi or his teacher Takamatsu taught him were actually done by the ninja, but based on the fact that Hatsumi is teaching 6 proven authentic Japanese traditional arts mixed in with three ninja ryus is enough to convince me. There is a lot more proof here that the Ninja styles are authentic than the latter , someone saying ”hey the ninja styles are fake”

Now do these techniques work in modern time? I have used the methods taught in Ninjutsu several times to defend myself as well as avoid danger. And in the ever changing times ,who knows we might need to use such skills as being able to move in the dark, move silently and survive in the wilderness, not to mention first aid and using various object as improvised weapons.

Masaaki Hatsumi is the founder of the Bujinkan organization and makes claims to an alleged art that actual historians can argue against.
Maybe he is a martial artist that capitalized on a consumers desires? It's not like that NEVER happens.

It's not about being in the past and having been there. The Samurai era is very well recorded.

If you read about any of these "ninjutsu" masters. Hatsumi or Hayes etc. You will see the words "claimed, alleged, purported" peppered throughout their presentation.

You will not see such things with other arts.
Whether it works or not is a matter of putting it out there and testing it.

In the meantime traditional sword arts from japan don't subscribe to claims like this, Karate has it's new and it's old, Judo, Jujutsu and other arts of japan are documented just fine. But this stuff? Nah, it has all the hallmarks of being "made up" It has none of the hallmarks of Japanese traditional martial arts lineages and histories otherwise.

But then, there's people who claim to worship spaghetti and demand to be respected for it or those who base their religion on a movie about space from 1977 and so on.

We humans engage the absurd more readily than we humans undertake actual disciplines that require years of steady, dedicated practice. That's why there are so few masters and so many piles of deluded crackpots out there who think themselves special. lol

[wiz cool c]

Pssst Masaaki Hatsumi is the recognized leader of such authentic histrorical ryus as Gyokko-Ryu Kosshijutsu, Koto-Ryu Koppojutsu, Shindenfudo-Ryu Dakentaijutsu, Kukishinden-Ryu Dakentaijutsu, Happo Bikken Gikan-Ryu Koppo Taijutsu Takagiyoshin-Ryu Jutaijutsu, which he was taught by To****sugu Takamatsu,and by the way lets throw in three fake ninja ryus,higly unlikely.

[David Jamieson]

Pssst Masaaki Hatsumi is the recognized leader of such authentic histrorical ryus as Gyokko-Ryu Kosshijutsu, Koto-Ryu Koppojutsu, Shindenfudo-Ryu Dakentaijutsu, Kukishinden-Ryu Dakentaijutsu, Happo Bikken Gikan-Ryu Koppo Taijutsu Takagiyoshin-Ryu Jutaijutsu, which he was taught by To****sugu Takamatsu,and by the way lets throw in three fake ninja ryus,higly unlikely.

He is the founder, ergo he founded those styles. they did not pre-exist him. the other arts are traditional, but not particular to ninjas.

Come on. It says it right there that he invented it based on what he already knew.

[wiz cool c]

Togakure Ryu (Nin) 戸隠流 - 1969 Edition
After the Taisho (Era), Takamatsu To****sugu utilized the fad of ninjutsu reading materials and organized a new genealogy. It is said that the densho was according to Toda Shinryuken's kuden. Toda Shinryuken (Isshinsai) passed away in Meiji 30 at the age of 73 years. Takamatsu was born 4 years later. If you take this genealogy, a person named Iin introduced it, and it split from the Hakuun Ryu of Hakuun Doshi (Yowa Era) and became Iga and Koga Ryu Ninjutsu. It passed through the lineage of Momochi Sandayu and then joined the Kishuhan Natori Ryu. After Toda Nobutsuna it was transmitted to the Toda family. However, because it is referenced from various transmittances such as oral material and kuden, the genealogy is embellished; the people that are in fact included in the references also record their era as older than actuality. And so it is painstaking work (to find accurate information
Takamatsu To****sugu organized its genealogy. It is said that it was taken from the densho according to Toda Shinryuken's kuden. Toda Shinryuken (Isshinsai) passed away in Meiji 41 at the age of 90 years. According to the genealogy, a person named Ikai introduced it, and it split from the Hakuun Ryu of Hakuun Doshi (Yowa Era) and became Iga and Koga Ryu Ninjutsu. It passed through the lineage of Momochi Sandayu and then joined the Kishuhan Natori Ryu. After Toda Nobutsuna it was transmitted to the Toda family. Because it is referenced from various transmittances such as kuden, the genealogy is embellished; it is thought that the (genealogical) period is older than the actual people and conditions as presented in the literature

Your spaghetti theory is convincing though.

[rett2]

9192
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[David Jamieson]

Togakure Ryu (Nin) 戸隠流 - 1969 Edition
After the Taisho (Era), Takamatsu To****sugu utilized the fad of ninjutsu reading materials and organized a new genealogy. It is said that the densho was according to Toda Shinryuken's kuden. Toda Shinryuken (Isshinsai) passed away in Meiji 30 at the age of 73 years. Takamatsu was born 4 years later. If you take this genealogy, a person named Iin introduced it, and it split from the Hakuun Ryu of Hakuun Doshi (Yowa Era) and became Iga and Koga Ryu Ninjutsu. It passed through the lineage of Momochi Sandayu and then joined the Kishuhan Natori Ryu. After Toda Nobutsuna it was transmitted to the Toda family. However, because it is referenced from various transmittances such as oral material and kuden, the genealogy is embellished; the people that are in fact included in the references also record their era as older than actuality. And so it is painstaking work (to find accurate information
Takamatsu To****sugu organized its genealogy. It is said that it was taken from the densho according to Toda Shinryuken's kuden. Toda Shinryuken (Isshinsai) passed away in Meiji 41 at the age of 90 years. According to the genealogy, a person named Ikai introduced it, and it split from the Hakuun Ryu of Hakuun Doshi (Yowa Era) and became Iga and Koga Ryu Ninjutsu. It passed through the lineage of Momochi Sandayu and then joined the Kishuhan Natori Ryu. After Toda Nobutsuna it was transmitted to the Toda family. Because it is referenced from various transmittances such as kuden, the genealogy is embellished; it is thought that the (genealogical) period is older than the actual people and conditions as presented in the literature

Your spaghetti theory is convincing though.

The key points that you offer up yourself:

1. "utilized the fad of ninjutsu reading materials and organized a new genealogy"

2. "It is said that"

3. "the genealogy is embellished; the people that are in fact included in the references also record their era as older than actuality"

4. "from various transmittances such as kuden, the genealogy is embellished"

5. "the (genealogical) period is older than the actual people and conditions as presented in the literature"

so, now we need to understand what "embellish" means exactly.

em·bel·lish
əmˈbeliSH/
verb
make (something) more attractive by the addition of decorative details or features.
"blue silk embellished with golden embroidery"
synonyms: decorate, adorn, ornament; More
make (a statement or story) more interesting or entertaining by adding extra details, especially ones that are not true.
"she had real difficulty telling the truth because she liked to embellish things"
synonyms: elaborate, embroider, expand on, exaggerate
"the legend was embellished in later re-tellings"


Lastly, I find it ironic that you call it spaghetti theory when in fact what I am saying is reflecting what is actually going on.
I am not certain what it is you think you are promoting or supporting. But like I said, it is revealing itself as not "actual" in what is written, the guy is a founder and is basing his ideas on other things and not actual systems as there were none in any real sense of the word.

I think if you are still going to get upset by simple truth, then that is your prerogative. In the meantime, the ninja craze driving the opening of schools that say they teach it is somewhat absurd.

Did Ninja exist? Yes and if you ask any scholar, historian, curator etc, which is what I have done over time, then you will discover truth. If you want to accept these guys as long lineage holders of secret ninja arts that will make you teh deadly, then I cannot offer any solace to you. You will either spiral into self absorbed ridiculousness or you will eventually find that bad taste in your mouth as you come to realize what a fool you've been.

But you go ahead and believe what you like, it's not like there isn't a host of shaky stories out there in the martial arts world. As an enthusiast myself, I see it every, single, day. lol

[wiz cool c]

The same can be said about your spaghetti theory but this just makes more sense to me

Although it has been suggested that Takamatsu Sensei and Watatani Kiyoshi (the primary author) were "friends" - and "confidence between friends" justifies Watatani's portrayal of the ninpo ryu ha as "fabrications" (see below), this cannot be the case. Watatani had his own agenda; the fact that he did not believe in the legitimacy of the ninpo ryu ha is evident in his writings, especially the earlier editions. However, even though a ryu ha is not favorably mentioned in these books, this does not mean that the martial art is not legitimate - only that someone uninvolved in the tradition believed it not to be true. In the Bujinkan, the secret teachings were never written in detail with brush and paper, only transmitted vaguely in cryptic words and by kuden (oral tradition) that only the soke may truly understand. These translations are provided for reference only.

Toda Sankyo Isshin is its ancestor. In the year of Tenbun (1532-1555) Sakagami Taro Kunishige received the Gyokko Ryu ****ojutsu tradition. Toda Sakyo Isshinsai established the Gyokko Ryu Koshijutsu as well as the Koto Ryu Koppojutsu and taught it to Momochi Sandayu. (Momochi) taught it within the Iga Ryu Ninjutsu and it lead to Toda Shinryuken (in the last days of the Tokugawa Shogunate). Shinryuken Masamitsu passed away in Meiji 40 at the age of 90 years. Please consult the (listing for) Koto Ryu Koppojutsu.
[Genealogy]: Tozawa Hakuunsai - Tozawa Shosuke - Suzuki Saburo Shigeyoshi...(Six Generations of Suzuki Line Omitted)...Sakagami Goro Katsushige - Sakagami Taro Kunishige (Gyokko ****ojutsu) - Sakagami Kotaro Masahide - Sogyokan - [Sasaki Gendayu Sadayasu (Kishu) - Sasaki Goemon Teruyoshi (Gyokushin Ninpo)] and [Suzuki Taizen Zentaro Chikamasa (Hon Tai Gyokushin Ryu)...(Three Generations Omitted)...Fukao Kakuma Shigeyoshi (Izumo Ryu Koppo)] and [Akimoto Kawauchi Moriyoshi - Uryu Hangan Gikanbo (Gikan Ryu Koppo)...Akimoto Taro Yoshihide] and Toda Sakyo Isshinsai (Koshijutsu, Koppo) - Momochi Sandayu (Tenbun) - Second Generation Momochi Sandayu (Tensho) - Momochi Tanba Yasumitsu (Keicho) - Momochi Taro Saemon...(Four Generations Omitted)...Toda Seiryu Nobutsuna (Kannei) - Toda Fudo Nobuchika (Manji) - Toda Kangoro Nobuyasu (Kanbun) - Toda Eisaburu Nobumasa - Toda Shingoro Masayoshi (Genbun) - Toda Daigoro Chikahide (Meiwa) - Toda Daisaburo Chikashige - Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu - Takamatsu To****sugu - Hatsumi Yoshiaki.

[David Jamieson]

The same can be said about your spaghetti theory but this just makes more sense to me

Toda Sankyo Isshin is its ancestor. In the year of Tenbun (1532-1555) Sakagami Taro Kunishige received the Gyokko Ryu ****ojutsu tradition. Toda Sakyo Isshinsai established the Gyokko Ryu Koshijutsu as well as the Koto Ryu Koppojutsu and taught it to Momochi Sandayu. (Momochi) taught it within the Iga Ryu Ninjutsu and it lead to Toda Shinryuken (in the last days of the Tokugawa Shogunate). Shinryuken Masamitsu passed away in Meiji 40 at the age of 90 years. Please consult the (listing for) Koto Ryu Koppojutsu.
[Genealogy]: Tozawa Hakuunsai - Tozawa Shosuke - Suzuki Saburo Shigeyoshi...(Six Generations of Suzuki Line Omitted)...Sakagami Goro Katsushige - Sakagami Taro Kunishige (Gyokko ****ojutsu) - Sakagami Kotaro Masahide - Sogyokan - [Sasaki Gendayu Sadayasu (Kishu) - Sasaki Goemon Teruyoshi (Gyokushin Ninpo)] and [Suzuki Taizen Zentaro Chikamasa (Hon Tai Gyokushin Ryu)...(Three Generations Omitted)...Fukao Kakuma Shigeyoshi (Izumo Ryu Koppo)] and [Akimoto Kawauchi Moriyoshi - Uryu Hangan Gikanbo (Gikan Ryu Koppo)...Akimoto Taro Yoshihide] and Toda Sakyo Isshinsai (Koshijutsu, Koppo) - Momochi Sandayu (Tenbun) - Second Generation Momochi Sandayu (Tensho) - Momochi Tanba Yasumitsu (Keicho) - Momochi Taro Saemon...(Four Generations Omitted)...Toda Seiryu Nobutsuna (Kannei) - Toda Fudo Nobuchika (Manji) - Toda Kangoro Nobuyasu (Kanbun) - Toda Eisaburu Nobumasa - Toda Shingoro Masayoshi (Genbun) - Toda Daigoro Chikahide (Meiwa) - Toda Daisaburo Chikashige - Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu - Takamatsu To****sugu - Hatsumi Yoshiaki.


Dude, making a list with a bunch of names does what?
That you cannot comprehend a simple word such as embellishment and instead choose to go on and call the truth "spaghetti theory" just paints you as a troll. Duly noted. I can't be bothered explaining it to you over and over again. I am not concerned with sharing truth with people who don't want it and instead prefer their big blanket of bull****. Enjoy your blanket I guess?

lol :rolleyes:

[wiz cool c]

Please take the time to read my post, or is it just a matter of getting the last word in

Although it has been suggested that Takamatsu Sensei and Watatani Kiyoshi (the primary author) were "friends" - and "confidence between friends" justifies Watatani's portrayal of the ninpo ryu ha as "fabrications" (see below), this cannot be the case. Watatani had his own agenda; the fact that he did not believe in the legitimacy of the ninpo ryu ha is evident in his writings, especially the earlier editions. However, even though a ryu ha is not favorably mentioned in these books, this does not mean that the martial art is not legitimate - only that someone uninvolved in the tradition believed it not to be true. In the Bujinkan, the secret teachings were never written in detail with brush and paper, only transmitted vaguely in cryptic words and by kuden (oral tradition) that only the soke may truly understand. These translations are provided for reference only.

[David Jamieson]

Please take the time to read my post, or is it just a matter of getting the last word in

Although it has been suggested that Takamatsu Sensei and Watatani Kiyoshi (the primary author) were "friends" - and "confidence between friends" justifies Watatani's portrayal of the ninpo ryu ha as "fabrications" (see below), this cannot be the case. Watatani had his own agenda; the fact that he did not believe in the legitimacy of the ninpo ryu ha is evident in his writings, especially the earlier editions. However, even though a ryu ha is not favorably mentioned in these books, this does not mean that the martial art is not legitimate - only that someone uninvolved in the tradition believed it not to be true. In the Bujinkan, the secret teachings were never written in detail with brush and paper, only transmitted vaguely in cryptic words and by kuden (oral tradition) that only the soke may truly understand. These translations are provided for reference only.


No, it's not about the last word and it is most certainly a load to say "only the soke may truly know".
That's rubbish and is a set up so that those who make outrageous claims can avoid being challenged on the veracity of said claims.
Let me divulge a little background. I got into martial arts by my own volition and at my fathers behest when I was 9. I am 50 now.
I have been through so many piles of information regarding samurai culture and rule and have a pretty good grasp of a great deal of it.

The idea that there is a particular school of ninja arts is very modern and if you reflect on the history of what happened, you would see the absurdity of the claims being made. One who makes such claims is not afraid of mixing lies and truth together to get the best result for themselves.

Do you not even question why this one guy is the ONLY guy to make such spurious claims as he is? Not even a little?

[wiz cool c]

If one doesn’t actually train in the system than only words are left to illustrate the point

Togakure RyūNinpo * - Hidden Door School
The oldest of the nine traditions, the techniques and skills of the Togakure Ryu form much of the basis for the Ninjutsu techniques taught in the Bujinkan.
The Togakure Ryu Ninja were required to master 18 forms of Bujutsu (Martial arts) including various punching, throwing and levering techniques making up taijutsu (unarmed combat) along with the arts of Kenpo (swordsmanship), Yari (spear), Naginata (halberd), Bojutsu (staff fighting), and three school secrets, named Sanpo Hiden, which are Shuko (hand claws), Senban Shuriken (throwing daggers), and Shinodake (bamboo tube for breathing under water).

Or pssst ninja are fake

[David Jamieson]

If one doesn’t actually train in the system than only words are left to illustrate the point

Togakure RyūNinpo * - Hidden Door School
The oldest of the nine traditions, the techniques and skills of the Togakure Ryu form much of the basis for the Ninjutsu techniques taught in the Bujinkan.
The Togakure Ryu Ninja were required to master 18 forms of Bujutsu (Martial arts) including various punching, throwing and levering techniques making up taijutsu (unarmed combat) along with the arts of Kenpo (swordsmanship), Yari (spear), Naginata (halberd), Bojutsu (staff fighting), and three school secrets, named Sanpo Hiden, which are Shuko (hand claws), Senban Shuriken (throwing daggers), and Shinodake (bamboo tube for breathing under water).

Or pssst ninja are fake

ninja as an organization? yeah, that is 100% fake.

The arts that are used in this modern made up ninja school? Sure, these are all over the place and none of them are strictly "ninja" arts. It's absurd to even posture that breathing with a snorkle/reed/tube etc is a ninja art form.

Ninja also killed with syphilis in a long game. Is that a secret art they teach at ninja school too? lol contract syphilis then seduce your target an let them rape you, then watch as they slowly rot away and lose their mind over 25 years. That is an actual recorded ninja move. lol

Come on. Read some history and stop eating the Bujinkan tales only. Recognize a hodge podge for what it is and understand history for what it is.

I explained exactly what ninja were. They aren't guys running around in black gis claiming to be ninja, that is for sure.

you could have a whole village of ninja. Basically lower class people who were willing to do dirty deed dirt cheap. NOt some mystical brotherhood or sisterhood with codes of honour etc etc. THat is utterly an outright lie.

But hey, psssst you can believe whatever fairy tales you want to put in your head.

But if you're promoting lies as truth round h'yar, I'm going to call you on it.

[wiz cool c]

If one doesn’t actually train in the system than only words are left to illustrate the point

Gyokko Ryū Kosshijutsu – Jewel Tiger School
Kosshijutsu means "to knock down the enemy with one finger". Koshi could also mean "Backbone", as if the Kosshijutsu is the backbone of martial arts. Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu, is a distant branch of the Gyokko Ryu Kosshijutsu.
Their is a saying in the Gyokko Ryu: "Bushigokoro wo motte totoshi no nasu", 'the warriors heart is precious, and essential'.
The school specialises in techniques that involve Kosshijutsu (attack against muscles), and ****ojutsu (use of thumbs and fingers). Typical for the Gyokko Ryu are the powerful blocks, and balance taking. They prefer to block, by hitting with the knuckles to the muscles areas.


I don’t think they have any DNA samples though;] I must admit your syphilis and spaghetti theories are pretty convincing, add in the psst ninja are fake and you have a rock hard case.

[Marco]

Interesting, bujinkan budo ninjutsu is very ineffective as far as i am concerned. But the lineage and many schools within the bujinkan budo taijutsu seem to be fraudalent and made up as well .

See the article link below about the questionable lineage of Hatsumi's bujinkan budo and the 9 traditions, also the article speaks about effectiveness of the art:

--------------------
"Togakure Ryu History for the Rest of Us,"*
by: Roger Conant*
(posted to*e-budo.com*Sept. 2006)*

http://sustainedreaction.yuku.com/topic/5540/BUJINKAN-NINJUTSU-HATSUMI-DID-A-CARLOS