Vic Moore & Bruce Lee

[Blacktiger]

Just found this - had not heard this story..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nik8VQAcuGE

[SifuYui]

Nice clip Blacktiger, thanks.

Just goes to show, Bruce Lee was just human and we all know that he had a huge ego. It's too bad that they always showed that one clip and not the others (as Master Vic Moore said). That, to me, is an injustice to this man who has devoted his life to the martial arts and his craft. Give the man his due!

[mickey]

Greetings,

I saw this clip before. There was something I understood that made his statement about Bruce Lee being unable to block his punch truthful. Bruce Lee was nearsighted and that would have impaired his reaction time. Since this clip no one has come forward with the full demo of that event. And Bruce's nearsightedness may be the reason why he never competed and why he developed a fighting method that emphasized offense. So with regard to the WJM fight, it is clear that Bruce Lee was working with disadvantages that he took to task after the fight.

I believe Bruce Lee was definitely impressed by this guy. Vic Moore had a very serious match against a guy who practically dwarfed him. Moore won that match. The match may have been Bruce's inspiration in creating his fight scene with Kareem Abdul Jabbar in the "Game of Death"


mickey

[Jimbo]

Greetings,

I saw this clip before. There was something I understood that made his statement about Bruce Lee being unable to block his punch truthful. Bruce Lee was nearsighted and that would have impaired his reaction time. Since this clip no one has come forward with the full demo of that event. And Bruce's nearsightedness may be the reason why he never competed and why he developed a fighting method that emphasized offense. So with regard to the WJM fight, it is clear that Bruce Lee was working with disadvantages that he took to task after the fight.

It's also possible that BL was simply unable to block his punch, regardless of his eyesight. BL wore contact lenses, but exactly when he began wearing them instead of glasses I'm not sure. I myself am nearsighted, and when I train with others and when I used to compete, I never wore corrective lenses. It's never affected my reaction time one way or another. I could even catch a moderately-thrown baseball or frisbee without lenses. So unless BL was blind as a bat without his contacts or glasses (and he most likely was wearing his contacts), it was likely a matter of BL lacking the ability to block his punches. He was human, after all, and there were and are some people out there with superior quickness, timing and distancing than BL. That's not a potshot at BL, it's simply a fact.

[mickey]

Greetings Jimbo,

I guess it would come to the degree of nearsightedness that Bruce Lee had. The glasses he had did not look thin.

It is interesting that you mentioned "blind as a bat". I thought something similar about the BL vs WJM fight. When it was described how Bruce was chasing WJM around, I thought, "like a bat with a sore throat , trying to hit something in the dark." It adds a very humorous aspect to the confrontation. And I did have a good laugh about it. But still, given whatever shortcomings, it was learning experience for both.

As for Vic Moore, he was a victim of the times. Will he have to wait for him to die for the truth to be finally shown?

I also agree with you about the quickness and that it was not unique to Bruce at the time. There will always be faster.


mickey

[Subitai]

Ok, just from watching the YT video...the impression I got was that he FOUGHT (beat 'em) them all. (~ 5:26 )

I have no desire to defend BL in any way...If he got whipped then that's what he got for showing off.

It's just that from the description master Moore gave of the speed test...I conclude it was NOT a fight, but just a simple test of reflexes. Which BL LOST..haha. Also, i'm just going to presume that he did fight and beat all the other champions though, I have no reason not to believe it unless someone else feels the need to post the contrary. Awesome for master Moore!

As for his recount of the story...I think it's totally plausible that it happened just that way. Only again, that's not a fight.


The reason I bring this up is because fighting is more than just simple tests of speed or reflexes (it's the whole package), that is obvious. I could just as easily point out growing up that I knew a guy that could be me in the classic hand slap game, but I could whip his arse in a fight. (having actually done it)

[GeneChing]

Yesterday I was wearing a Bruce Lee T-shirt. I have hundreds of T-shirts because I get a lot of them from my work, both professional and volunteer. I have several Bruce Lee T-shirts. Heck, you can get them at the mall.

I don't have a single Vic Moore T-shirt. Do they even make any? ;)

[mickey]

HAHAHAHAHA!


mickey

[lkfmdc]

I don't have a single Vic Moore T-shirt. Do they even make any? ;)

you do tempt me Gene Ching, you do temp me

vicmoretshirt.com

[dcrjradmonish]

I found Mr Moore Chuck Norris story more interesting.

[B.Tunks]

not that it matters much, but in the interests of comedy:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uByOGzaTRBM

[SifuYui]

B.Tunks, thanks for the video clip - it's definitely more comprehensive than the other one and calls into question Vic Moore's claim.

In the immortal words of Roper in Enter the Dragon - "Faked out again". What the deuce?

[mickey]

Greetings,

B.Tunks,

It is comedy because Bruce is nowhere close with that punch. And they even edited it at the beginning to where Bruce lee's punch seems to disappear, to give the impression of incredible speed.

Aside from this thread, I find the threads popping up that deconstruct Bruce Lee very interesting. It is as if he set a standard that no one can achieve; so, he has become a sort of outlier that must be destroyed. He never created his myth. Just as Vic Moore alleges, in his own way, the myth was built around him (this was said somewhere in this forum, I remember). Maybe the deconstruction of Bruce Lee is necessary to be free to find out who you really are through the liberation from expectations. Finding your own truth along your own path. Or, maybe, we have just grown tired of the bullsh!t.

mickey

[Jimbo]

I found Vic Moore's discussing the discrimination in the 1960s karate tournament/MA scene far more insightful than his discussion of Bruce Lee, TBH. He almost seems to be more upset about the BL speed demo than all the other, more serious stuff. In fact, he seems unreasonably upset about it. Whether he's telling the truth or not, 47 years have passed. It comes across as sour grapes. Complaining that all the guys he beat ended up in the movies, then criticizing the movies themselves gives the impression he's still upset that he wasn't put in movies. The movie thing wasn't all about race, since Jim Kelly, Ron Van Clief, and Carl Scott ended up in movies.

As far as pure speed goes, even BL could not have hit with "BL speed" if he were actually hitting to make real contact.

[mickey]

Good points Jimbo and SKM,


mickey

[B.Tunks]

Greetings,

B.Tunks,

It is comedy because Bruce is nowhere close with that punch. And they even edited it at the beginning to where Bruce lee's punch seems to disappear, to give the impression of incredible speed.

Aside from this thread, I find the threads popping up that deconstruct Bruce Lee very interesting. It is as if he set a standard that no one can achieve; so, he has become a sort of outlier that must be destroyed. He never created his myth. Just as Vic Moore alleges, in his own way, the myth was built around him (this was said somewhere in this forum, I remember). Maybe the deconstruction of Bruce Lee is necessary to be free to find out who you really are through the liberation from expectations. Finding your own truth along your own path. Or, maybe, we have just grown tired of the bullsh!t.

mickey

Yeah, the 'punches' (actually whipping backfists from what I can see) were about a foot short of their target. The whole thing is pretty amusing.

[mickey]

Greetings,

A fitting kibosh to this thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwDG3mYCbJU



mickey

[David Jamieson]

Get your Vic Moore shirts here! Get em while they're hot! lol :p

[mickey]

Greetings,

I mentally came back to this and it really hit me: what is the big freakin deal that the guy blocked Bruce Lee's punch? It dies not carry anything whether true or not. Respect comes from how you choose to live your life and there are millions who live exemplary lives and do not receive the recognition for it; interestingly, some don't even want the recognition and even tend to shy away from it.

mickey

[boxerbilly]

Can someone tell me the minute mark where Moore actually touches Lee's hand regardless if Lee was to far away to hit Moore head? I see Moore's hand arriving after Lee pulls back.

I believe Bruce Lee stated Steve Sanders moved faster then he could. Probably drove him nuts. But like Sanders said. Lee's timing was great. It's probably why he seemed faster than he may have been to those that played around with him.

And his EGO was huge. Its what made him and why for all practical purpose. He still lives. In the minds of everyone martial artists or not. And that my friends is why he is greatest. The vast majority will always think that. He achieved his primary goal.

Edit. Being that Lee was actually further away. Moore had more time to see and react. Anyone with any experience knows, you aint blocking much if any if almost anyone is close enough to touch you. Which is why you Chinese artists like to brigde. Faster reaction times through touch. I always said, head movement beats hand movement because you have more time. Boxers look great at blocking but that is because most boxers punch in standard combos and we are pretty sure what is coming next. Hence we are already covered.

[boxerbilly]

I wish more people would release all that old talked about footage. It would dispel misbeliefs. Etc. I suspect many think they are sitting on a goldmine. Not anymore. You should have cut that deal right after Lee's death and for other footage, during the time this stuff was making top dollar. It already peaked out.
Give it up for the people !

[Jimbo]

Bruce Lee was quoted as saying that Steve Sanders had the fastest hands he'd ever seen.

I've seen guys whose speed was equivalent to BL. For one example, in Taiwan, my late Mantis teacher also trained Hung Gar. His Hung Gar teacher, surnamed Zhang, had greater speed than anyone I ever sparred with, especially with his legs. He kicked so fast many people around Taiwan referred to him as possessing the 'Wu Ying Jiao' (no-shadow kick). Maybe not the exact same as Wong Fei-Hong's no-shadow kick, though. Zhang, when he kicked, looked like undercranking (fast-motion) in a movie, he was that fast. And he could cover ground and land those kicks hard and without any telegraphing. He kicked about 90% right-legged, but he could maneuver that leg like an arm. When I knew him, Zhang was in his late-40s and early-50s. I saw older video of him, and in his younger days he was even faster. I did figure out that his explosive speed bursts worked best when you become temporarily stationary. Constant mobility on my part made it difficult for him to 'get set' for an explosive attack. He didn't like that too much.

[boxerbilly]

Here is the same -different angle. You guys be the judge. I don't see Moore blocking shi---t!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uByOGzaTRBM

[boxerbilly]

Back then, it would have seemed mystical. But we know more now. Almost anyone can do that to anyone else. It really means nothing. But Moore is full of it !

[boxerbilly]

Lee sparring demos. Yeah, he cleary sucked! Im not sure what you guys look at but he was so far ahead of his contemporaries they were clueless. I really believe he would have knocked a lot of guys on their ass. On the street? He was no longer a 20 years old kid still finding out things. The dude was as serious as a heart attack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4a934j8fTc

[Jimbo]

Reportedly, BL sparred with 1960s-era New York karate fighter Louis Delgado, and got the better of Delgado.

[boxerbilly]

I wonder if he mentioned anyone here could put on the gear and spar me. I doubt he had any takers if so. People were bewildered I imagine. WTF is going on. This don't make any sense.

In another thread, someone posted up those old thai vids and Mas Oyama karate. Other guys leading the pack in regards to lets find out. And I really don't think Bruce was anti traditional arts. he took what he felt was still valuable for himself. If you look at the different eras. Each group got fairly good at what he focused on. Watch clips of Jesse Glover doing chi sao. I guess depending on your linage, you might think he is doing this , that and everything else wrong. But, Jesse touched hands with many traditional guys and I think they felt different after that fact.

Not to many guys came out and trashed Lee while alive.

Do I think there was no one who could have took him then. Yeah, probably. Someone who may even had less ability than himself. Sometimes its the kid everyone knows sucks whips your ass for whatever reason. It happens! Lucky punch that just connects perfectly at the right time. BOOM. What happened? You lost! Ive been there.

[Jimbo]

Often the toughest opponent isn't the most technically refined; sometimes awkward guys are much more difficult. I've experienced that, and even before that, I was the (technically) awkward guy. It throws people off, due to the awkward guy's lack of control, and his unpredictability.

[boxerbilly]

Never heard the Delgado story. Thanks for the update. Really it is meaningless. You either think the guy was good or you don't. Even when someone points out the obvious you can't see it. Or you blind yourself because he is breaking all the rules so it has to be faked.

What I see most clearly is Lee's footwork. Man his feet were fast. Nardi there all the way! Even the way he is sometimes reckless with his hands. Nardi! Hmm, classical art!

And, could the possibility exist Lee stayed out of range to protect Moore? Some arts teach you to enter while blocking. Moore may have walked his eye into a finger nail? I don't know but we are so swayed by words and what we believe or want to believe when what is shown is not as you think.

Anyway, I think Ive established where I stand regarding Lee. Guy was great. ****ed people off. Was full of himself. Became the most known martial artist and actor that ever lived in both fields. Had the best at that time line up to learn from him. Pretty great if you asked me. But he never fought anyone. Of course we don't know that for certain. He only talked about that stuff with friends, like we do. Do you go around telling everyone you kicked some dudes teeth out, if you ever had? NOPE. Only those you trust. So we will never know everything and no one said nothing until after he died. WHY?

[boxerbilly]

Again, off by a letter. I'll not change it so you guys can have a laugh,, anyway, Nadi and his brother. Some may enjoy, But, LOOK please.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjYg0ByTP4Q

[boxerbilly]

Santelli: Foil Fencing Fundamentals - Part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKPRRDKvoSA

Ive got nothing more to add. Above video is very enlightening if you like that word.

[MightyB]

I wish more people would release all that old talked about footage. It would dispel misbeliefs. Etc. I suspect many think they are sitting on a goldmine. Not anymore. You should have cut that deal right after Lee's death and for other footage, during the time this stuff was making top dollar. It already peaked out.
Give it up for the people !

I AM BRUCE LEE (http://brucelee.shop.sportstoday.com/Dept.aspx?cp=51324_53770_54602) documentary.

There's a preview on the link.

[Charles S]

It does seem Bruce was at least a foot short, Moore tried to block where Bruce's hand was,or swipe where it was going to be, then Bruce pulled it back. Then he used that "fake" to get into his space and make it seem like he did much more than he actually did.
Penn and Teller would have a field day with this kind of stuff. Or the myth busters.
Of course, maybe Bruce was just using his PIA, or ABD, and was trying to trick Moore. That's what lots of guys have done to me when I volunteer to see first hand the techniques of the masters. :rolleyes:

[David Jamieson]

Greetings,

I mentally came back to this and it really hit me: what is the big freakin deal that the guy blocked Bruce Lee's punch? It dies not carry anything whether true or not. Respect comes from how you choose to live your life and there are millions who live exemplary lives and do not receive the recognition for it; interestingly, some don't even want the recognition and even tend to shy away from it.

mickey

Some people only have that one small event in their life that they think they can capitalize on. That's ok we here in NA live within the bounds of capitalism. If that's all you got, that's all you got to work with. No harm in that. :D

[mickey]

ummmmmm,

Another headlock with nuggies on the way. :)

mickey

[Jimbo]

Some people only have that one small event in their life that they think they can capitalize on. That's ok we here in NA live within the bounds of capitalism. If that's all you got, that's all you got to work with. No harm in that. :D

The thing is, Vic Moore is supposedly one of the old-time greats. So why is he so hot and bothered about such a trifling thing as a stupid speed demo from almost 50 years ago? What about the calmness and inner strength that a lifetime of hard training should have instilled? Just sayin'.

Nobody would even be questioning his integrity about it if he hadn't complained openly. Seeing him on video now, I wouldn't have even recognized him from the demo unless I knew him back then.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Jimbo,

Vic Moore may have grounds under tort law if the film was released by the Parker estate. That is not saying much. I did read at another site that the film was edited to portray Bruce in a good light for those people in Hollywood. Still, it may be just between Vic Moore and the Parker estate. I ain't achin' my noodles over it.

mickey