Hua Quan- Questions Regarding Luo Han Shi Ba Shou and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan [Archive]

RenDaHai

11-03-2014, 02:54 AM

Hi there,

I know the forms your talking about. Its true they are not really Song mountain kung fu, they are popular all over China.

There ARE many authentic song mountain Luohan 18 shou forms, which is why it has always confused me that so many schools use the hua quan one. One Luohan 18 shou in particular stands apart which I would say should be the standard but there are no videos of it. In fact when you have over 700 forms and are the most famous Kung fu style it is very strange to take forms from other clans.

I am not certain if there is a third set like these, but I do know that both these sets have a DuiLian, a 2 man version. After this there is a HuaQuan 24shi (i think) that some people practice, it might be related. Some schools do these sets together with the standard 6 international wushu routines of chang quan.

FengMo gun is a true Shaolin staff style. Shaolins famous staff was called the YeCha Gun, but this is the name of a buddhist demon and only really makes sense inside a temple. In the Song mountain villages FengMo gun and MeiQi and YinShou gun are more common. Though they are not the name of a particular set but the name of styles of Staff fighting and each name has many sets.

Really any buddhist fist can be called Luohan Quan, but certainly the forms you mention are not part of original Shaolin luohan quan (if there is such a thing). Though FengMo gun MAY well be truly old Shaolin material, there are many forms with this name, no doubt some are old some are not, the sequence here is not as important as the techniques contained.

SHemmati

11-03-2014, 02:56 AM

having the same names! another problem. yes, as told, that Luohan 18 hands and the 8-tep Lian Huan quan are both from Hua quan style. maybe once they'd had some roots in Shaolin, but in their current form they seem much different from Shaolin quan.

however, having the same names makes people mistakenly mention this Luohan 18 hands form as the Shaolin 18 hands. there are articles claiming Shaolin Luohan 18 hands as having 6 different methods of fist, 1 method of elbow, 2 methods of palm, 4 methods of leg, and 5 methods of joint locking. and that of these 18 methods, a routine of 24 movements for attack and defense has been developed and so and so. this is all about this Luohan 18 hands, and irrelevant to the Shaolin Luohan 18 hands forms. (more detail on Luohan 18 hands and Luohan quan here: Wikipedia: Luohan (martial arts)#Luohan's 18 hands (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luohan_%28martial_arts%29#Luohan.27s_18_hands))

Shaolin sets are not at all mixed bags. that's because of the confusing phenomenon of "different styles with the same names," that people mix up. not only Luohan 18 hands, but for most the other well-known extant Shaolin sets (like Hong quan, Pao quan, Tong Bi quan, Luohan quan, Chang quan, Xin Yi quan, Mi Zong quan, etc, etc,...) there is at least one totally different non-Shaolin style with exactly the same name. people and the scholars may get confused and mix these styles up with one another. you see many people, assumedly, describing a Shaolin style, while when you go along you see they've been describing a totally different non-Shaolin style with the same name all along; like the above-mentioned case of Shaolin Luohan 18 hands.
seems vital in this Shaolin forum to have a big thread about such confusions.

taichi4eva

11-03-2014, 01:16 PM

I think the reason why many schools gravitate to the Hua Quan version is because it is nicely constructed- not too long, 18 skills, can be practiced individually and then in a 2 man set. Shi De Yang's DVD of Luo Han 18 Hands seems to be a hodgepodge, according to Sal...so I wonder which is the standard. Any links to Hua Quan 24 Shi?

RenDaHai

11-03-2014, 04:09 PM

The one Deyang does is a good form, but there are many versions and every version of it has similar techniques but an often different sequence, so Sal is right, its been knocked about a bit. But its good material. However it has another name, XiaoSiHui, '4 rounds'. Its GeJue (Poem) mentions the 18 hands but I don't think this form is it. The one I am referring to is very different and beautiful, however I don't know if its the 'original' if there is one, its just particularly nice and has clearly 18 moves.

I don't know much about 24 shi, just that I've seen people doing it, its an easy(ish) form. I think your probably right about these forms, They are clear and easy to teach and understand, especially they are easy to teach big group of students together. Still I would rather Shaolin focused on its own material.

SHemmati

11-04-2014, 02:39 AM

reasonable. in Hua quan, action (attack and defense applications) is clear. so, of course these Hua quan duets (2-man forms) are easy to learn, simple to understand and also effective to use in combats. they are a best choice for the folks to learn.
compare these with Shaolin quan, in which the purposes are mostly esoterically hidden in the forms, and takes years to be learned.

this Hua quan Luohan 18 hands has 18 basic methods (6 methods of fists, 1 method of elbow, ...), but the solo form has 24 postures (shi), then another form, which has many different methods, is coupled with this to form the duet. maybe the 24 posture Hua quan you talk about is this 24-posture solo form?

** the problem with Shaolin Luohan 18 hands form was long ago solved in the Luohan quan thread. it was a mistake. it was shown that Deyang's Luohan 18 hands is exactly the same as the other monks of his lineage (for example Shi Deyong), and also exactly the same as the Encyclopedia's Luohan 18 hands, the exact same movements, the exact same sequence. because Shaolin monks do their forms with different shen fa (body mechanics), it's usual for people to get confused if they don't check out the forms movement by movement. in most the cases, the forms are mostly exactly the same and there's no need to any standardization. this kind of confusion is usual to happen, and it happens a lot in this forum as well. when it comes to Shaolin quan, people ought to be more careful with their opinions on the styles.

taichi4eva

11-04-2014, 11:28 AM

I think it was discussed how Shi Deyang's form that was released in both VCD and DVD formats is a revamped version of Luo Han Shi Ba Shou 1 Lu. I also learned from the discussions on the forum, that most people practice the 1st and 8th road only. I have a translation of the Shaolin Encyclopedia in Vietnamese, and the 8th road is the same exact form as the Huaquan 18 Shou. Can anyone corroborate this?

taichi4eva

11-04-2014, 11:50 AM

The only Hua Quan 24 Shi that I have seen is the one from Flower Fist, not China Fist-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sv1XUNQ6sI8

SHemmati

11-04-2014, 12:09 PM

I think it was discussed how Shi Deyang's form that was released in both VCD and DVD formats is a revamped version of Luo Han Shi Ba Shou 1 Lu.
that was a mistake. and when it comes to traditional kung fu styles, such mistakes happen a lot. all versions were the same. there's also a video of another monk, Shi Deyong (not Deyang). the Encyclopedia's, Deyang's, and Deyong's all have the same sequence, the same movements. read the posts carefully.

I have a translation of the Shaolin Encyclopedia in Vietnamese, and the 8th road is the same exact form as the Huaquan 18 Shou. Can anyone corroborate this?
that Hua quan form is the 9th form. the 8th form is the one Shi Dejian and his fellow brothers do. the Encyclopedia is here: check it out, vol 2, page 32: https://www.scribd.com/collections/4133108

RenDaHai

11-04-2014, 05:03 PM

I can't watch Youtube right now (China),

Never the less it may well not be related, I only noticed it because it is visibly not Shaolin so when I see people in DengFeng practicing it I think why and I group all the non Shaolin sets together.

As Shemmati said, the HuaQuan one IS in the encyclopedia, as is babu lian huan quan, you will notice however they are drawn differently (old encylopedia). It is listed as part 9, I think they also show HuShanZiMen Luohan 18 shou as well.

As to the first 8, they look like their related and I think they may be part of a big system but we have yet to discover a clan that practices all 8 or even several of these together so I remain uncertain. Part 1 is common. Either way it appears to be NanYuan material.

@Shemmati,

Your right, DeYongs is the same as DeYangs. Its a good set, but I have seen these traditionally referred to as XiaoSiHui. As to HuShanZiMen I don't know much about this one, I have seen it practiced here but I am very uncertain of it, it doesn't feel classic SongShan to me. Have you seen the one in the book by LiuZhenHai and WangXiQian? This is the same as the one I practice, I have seen its poem repeated in several places and I think it is the best candidate for a standard 18 Shou. It is not in the Encyclopedia.

taichi4eva

11-04-2014, 05:35 PM

RenDaHai

11-05-2014, 04:35 AM

Shaolin 18 postures...may be a modern form but it looks like a sister form to Luo Han Shi Ba Shou and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzg4ODIxMzA4.html?from=y1.2-1-98.4.2-1.1-1-2-1

I think I recognise this form.... Its not practiced in DengFeng but it is shaolin, kind of. If its what I think it is then its not old its new, however it was designed to be useful sanshou techniques instead of to look cool.

Either way it is not related to Babu or the other one. It looks similar because its construction is simple.

LFJ

11-05-2014, 06:24 AM

A couple comments;

- I learned that the traditional stick fighting method of Luohan was Yinyanggun, not Fengmogun... for what that's worth.

- Xiaosihui in Shi Zhenxu's lineage (Deyang, Deyong, etc.) is the "Kanjia" set of Nanyuan Tongbeiquan. It was only called Luohan Shiba Shou because it consisted of 18 postures, and to obscure its identity. It didn't used to be taught to students outside this small sect of Zhenxu's personal disciples, even when he was acting abbot and taught other material to the rest of the monks (he learned both Nanyuan and Xiyuan). Hence it's so rare nowadays. Never saw people do it until Deyang's video came out, but still not many know what it actually is. Maybe only 8 or so people have all of Zhenxu's system, which they call "Shaolin Zhenxu Quanxue" (combat science).

If you ask me, the version shown in the Encyclopedia is very disjointed and hard to follow, as if deliberately scrambled to further obscure what it is, along with making it seem as if it's part of an 8 or 9 road Luohan system, which clearly it is not. Not sure what exactly Sal was talking about when he suggested a Baguazhang connection to it and how it should be like the Encyclopedia version. That version makes no sense. I've never seen anyone do it like that, and everyone in Zhenxu's sect does it the same way.

MarathonTmatt

11-05-2014, 07:52 AM

Hi taichi4eva-

As a student with training in the Hua Quan style (China Fist):

1st I can say that you are right the China 24 Shi people are talking about in this thread is from the Flower-style, not the China (Glorious) style.

As far as Hua Quan- this style (within the system) has 12 core forms which can be performed as killer solo forms or (most if not all) as a 2-person set. Beyond these 12 core forms are the longer roads, and also short and long weapons sets.

There is a Chinese TV documentary you may be able to see on Youtube about Hua Quan- it shows a black and white picture of Cai Longyun's father in a distinct posture from Babu (lian hua) chuan. If you train outside the Wah (hua) style I guess it makes sense to say where the form comes from, the school I train just referrs to the form as 'Babu Chuan'.

The 12 core forms of Hua Quan are developmental in nature- they start shorter such as sher bi shou and babu chuan, but get almost as lenghty as the roads at the other end of the spectrum- each form emphasizing different techniques and elements, etc.

If giving a performance for example, Babu chuan and sher bi (shou) chuan are good to perform together, one could train those like one long form, although different techniques and postures the energy of these 2 forms work well together. There are other forms in the 12 core set that are just like this as well, that go good together, such as the 1st set and the 4th set from the 12 core forms I learned (which are identical in energy, with the 4th set being a longer form with more high/low stances, etc.) (for a modern example, like different levels of a video game). Some of the 12 core forms are also Hua style's Springing Legs as well, with alot of kicking skill involved.

Anyway that is my 2cents. Have a good day!

taichi4eva

11-05-2014, 11:12 AM

taichi4eva

11-05-2014, 11:14 AM

At LFJ- the term Kanjia...does it point to something special? "watch over the household"

What were the differences in the Shaolin practiced in Xiyuan, Nanyuan, Beiyuan...etc.?

MarathonTmatt

11-05-2014, 05:06 PM

Thank you everyone for the great information!

MarathonTmatt- So when were Luo Han Shi Ba Shou and Ba Bu Lian Huan Quan constructed? Are they newer sets? Or are they as old as the other 12 core sets of Hua Quan? Any forms in Hua Quan similar to these two sets?

This style was largely practised in Shandong province. Cai Longyun's father, Cai Guigin trained under his grandfather in the style, and later after his grandfather passed, from another Hua master in Shantung, Ding Yushan. If you think about it this implies that Hua Quan was practised by different masters throughout the Shantung Province at that time (18th/19th centuries.) There were probably different variations of the art as well at this time. In fact it was said that Cai Guigin combined his grandfather's teachings of Hua Quan with Master Ding Yushan's teachings to "make the art complete again" implying he must have learned different material from both master's.

How old is Shi Ba Shou and (Hua style) Babu Quan. It probably existed in some form or another since Cai Guigin's time. Maybe before (in some form). Maybe Cai Longyun did modernize these forms, maybe it came from Cai Guigin or Ding Yushan I am not sure. I am not sure either when the Shaolin Temple adopted these forms into their training curriculum. I do know that the International Chin Woo Association trains at least Shi Ba Shou, and that the association was founded around (1915'ish?) which was when Cai Guigin was travelling through China, and spreading boxing techniques with other master's. It would be interesting to find out when the Chin Woo Assoc. absorbed that material into their curriculum (possibly influenced by Cai Guigin directly?) Cai Guigin also taught his sister's son in the Hua style, with the surname of Chen. Master Chen had two sons, one who stayed in China (during cultural revolution) and one who made his way to Taiwan (I hope I got that right) and eventually to the USA, but moved back to China eventually.

Also Cai Longyun is one of China's top Wushu masters and is a living legend. He also has a son who I think teaches. My teacher would know better than me, I think he has collaborated with him before in the past (at least were "in touch" w/ each other.)

Also, alot of the northern longfist styles are related. Sometimes when I see Cha Quan or Hong Quan sets I think "that might as well be a different Hua Quan form." Like I said, the 1st set and the 4th set of the 12 core forms of the Hua style have a similar energy unto themselves also and are good to train together. The 1st form is just as "short" and crisp as Babu and Sher Ba with the 4th form being a little longer- they have different energies though. The 5th form I learned is the 1st "springing legs" form (emphasizing leg skill), etc. Again, the forms are developmental in nature and focus on different aspects of training for the student's development, that is why people usually say stuff like "long fist has a bit of everything" and things like that.

Okay, cheer-ri-os!

MarathonTmatt

11-05-2014, 06:26 PM

Oh, also to answer your question a bit further- I would say that most of the Hua forms have a "4-part" kick drill. This consists of hand techniques (I will reserve myself and not go into the detail) combined with a springing snap kick. Babu is the only form I can think of that I learned that does not have this signature move. Another signature move is the "Rising Sun" salute/ brush upwards.

For instance in this video (uploaded by LFJ who is on this thread) -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0fYsmDGeIQ

the performer does the springing snap kick @ 0:15 but w/o the signature hand technique ("4-part") I learned.

Now, it is a nice night outside so I am going to go outside and train!

LFJ

11-05-2014, 08:30 PM

At LFJ- the term Kanjia...does it point to something special? "watch over the household"

Yes, it's actually sometimes translated as "special" because it's usually the most "outstanding" techniques within a style used to "guard the household". Dictionaries have all three of these translations. For this reason the Xiaosihui was itself closely guarded and not even regular students would learn it until much later. Compared to the rest of Nanyuan Tongbeiquan, although it's short and simple, its techniques are quite brutal. Nowadays I see people use it as a basic stance training set or something, fooled by its simplicity. But it's actually still very rare.

What were the differences in the Shaolin practiced in Xiyuan, Nanyuan, Beiyuan...etc.?

That's a complicated question since there are many subsystems to consider. There are styles unique to each, but where they do share things the body mechanics can be quite different. RenDaHai might be able to give a more detailed impression since he has training experience in both Xiyuan and Nanyuan, whereas I primarily just train Nanyuan. I get the impression that Xiyuan and Nanyuan had the martial traditions, as not much is known to have come from the others.

As we mention it, there is a Xiyuan version of Xiaosihui, also called Xiantian Luohan Shiba Shou, as Shi Deyang calls it on his video. Xiantian means inborn; innate; natural, and I believe this is because while it's not actually part of a Luohanquan system, it's a Shaolin style (which can generically be called Luohanquan, Arhat Boxing) made of 18 postures, so the "Luohan Shiba Shou" is inborn, although this is to obscure its identity.

The Xiyuan version goes to the right instead of left with all mirrored movements, but its steps and movements are very compact, compared to the Nanyuan version. Personally, I train it going to the left, and then at the end, since it starts and ends with the same salute, I continue to do it on the mirrored side as a long balanced form.

The Xiyuan version is so different it's very difficult to tell it's the same stuff. You have to look closely. But it's changed so much it doesn't really match the Nanyuan Tongbeiquan that it's a part of, whereas the Nanyuan version is very close and obviously a part of the larger system. This is what I'm talking about below. Don't know when this version came about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RN3lgsn-arI

SHemmati

11-06-2014, 04:25 AM

...Have you seen the one in the book by LiuZhenHai and WangXiQian? This is the same as the one I practice, I have seen its poem repeated in several places and I think it is the best candidate for a standard 18 Shou. It is not in the Encyclopedia.
yea. we talked about it in the Luohan quan thread. it's said to have been passed down by Li Gensheng, which as you know was a folk master. i still don't know anything about its origin. but has much in common with xiyuan small Tong Bi quan, and especially the 1st form of the strange 18-form Luohan system that i posted its first 10 forms into the Luohan thread. strange, that 1st form of that 18-form Luohan quan also was exactly of the kind of and somehow identical to xiyuan small Tong Bi quan. the origins go toward xiyuan and its Tong Bi quan, for sure.
it was just a conjecture, but i guessed this one is called Luohan 18 hands because its 18 techniques are exactly those that form that 1st form of that strange 18 Luohan quan. complicated.

A couple comments;

- I learned that the traditional stick fighting method of Luohan was Yinyanggun, not Fengmogun...
strange! because of the many Shaolin staff forms, shao huo gun and feng mo gun overtly have completely Buddhist luohan postures and nature. yin shou gun and yin yang gun both come almost directly from the Ming generals Yu Dayu and others. these don't show any Buddhist luohan attitude and are not of Luohan quan in origin, but could have been adopted to the system later on.

...Nanyuan Tongbeiquan
this is another case of the "different styles, same/similar names." Shaolin has no Tong Bei quan. Shaolin tong bi quan origin, as you know, comes from general Han Tong's Tong Bi quan of the Song dynasty (this Tong Bi quan, now, also as you know, part of xiyuan big Tong Bi quan though it's a small form, and Taizu Chang quan, and Da Hong quan, and Shaolin small Mei Hua quan, and probably Wu He quan, and some other styles of the early Song dynasty are all based on the methods that the generals of the early Song dynasty taught their armies. all these styles share much technical contents in common.) later, the monks mixed Han Tong's Tong Bi style (maybe called Tong Bi quan because of Han Tong's name? both these 'Tong's are the same exact Chinese word) with small and big Hong quan, etc, to make the 3-form Tong Bi quan, now called small nanyuan Tong Bi quan. Tong Bei quan is a totally different Daoist style. there we see almost no technical similarity between Shaolin Tong Bi quan, and Daoist Tong Bei quan. i think using the totally different name Tong Bei for Shaolin Tong Bi style is probably because of the similarity of the names. despite this much spread confusion, i'm yet to see any reliable source mentioning any logical relation between Shaolin Tong Bi quan and the Daoist Tong Bei quan.

If you ask me, the version shown in the Encyclopedia is very disjointed and hard to follow, as if deliberately scrambled to further obscure what it is, along with making it seem as if it's part of an 8 or 9 road Luohan system, which clearly it is not. Not sure what exactly Sal was talking about when he suggested a Baguazhang connection to it and how it should be like the Encyclopedia version. That version makes no sense. I've never seen anyone do it like that, and everyone in Zhenxu's sect does it the same way.
this is definitely a wrong impression. i previously talked about it in the Luohan thread, and i thought it was enough to show that the Encyclopedia version is the same. but seems it had not been enough. ok. i make that description pictorial and post it here tonight. maybe that helps.

...the term Kanjia...does it point to something special? "watch over the household"
both of these. in Shaolin theres is more than one Kan Jia quan. one means 'guard/watch over the household,' another means 'special.' and i think there's more. about the 'guard the home' style, it's is said to have been created under the supervision of abbot FuJu (Song dynasty, 960s AD) or FuYu (Yuan dynasty, 1200s AD). about the 'special' style, i'm unsure if it refers to one specific style. many lineages pick up a form and call it 'special.'

LFJ

11-06-2014, 05:12 AM

Shaolin has no Tong Bei quan.

You are mistaken.

LFJ

11-06-2014, 07:09 AM

strange! because of the many Shaolin staff forms, shao huo gun and feng mo gun overtly have completely Buddhist luohan postures and nature. yin shou gun and yin yang gun both come almost directly from the Ming generals Yu Dayu and others. these don't show any Buddhist luohan attitude and are not of Luohan quan in origin, but could have been adopted to the system later on.

An entire section of the first road of Yinshougun is found in the middle of both Shaohuogun and Fengmogun and it shares the methodology of Fengmogun. It's also not just a single form, but an entire stick fighting system.

later, the monks mixed Han Tong's Tong Bi style (maybe called Tong Bi quan because of Han Tong's name? both these 'Tong's are the same exact Chinese word) with small and big Hong quan, etc, to make the 3-form Tong Bi quan, now called small nanyuan Tong Bi quan. Tong Bei quan is a totally different Daoist style.

Nanyuan Tongbiquan is "Renshou Tongbiquan". It's a different subsystem from Nanyuan Tongbeiquan. They aren't actually Da and Xiao pairs, and they are both long forms broken into three parts for instructional videos. I confirm that from my Nanyuan lineage.

RenDaHai has confirmed from his Xiyuan lineage, they also have Tongbeiquan, and there is another standard Shaolin Tongbiquan that is not Renshou Tongbiquan, nor is it anything like Tongbeiquan.

Despite what you may have read and image of history you now hold, these are confirmed from the source. You still have some things mixed up. There is more, and it is confusing, but these are the facts according to the actual lineages that train these.

both of these. in Shaolin theres is more than one Kan Jia quan. one means 'guard/watch over the household,' another means 'special.'

These are both translations of the same characters 看家, not different names. Kanjiaquan is a commonly used name, so naturally there are many things under this title. Each sect will have a "Kanjiaquan" which is their "special" style used to "guard the household". Literally it means to guard the household, but also means special or outstanding in reference to skill or ability. Usually when you find a form or system with this name, it also has another specific name. Kanjiaquan in that sense isn't the actual name of the system, but a title meaning this system or form is the special/best/secret techniques of the sect.

bawang

11-06-2014, 09:15 AM

ba bu lian huan is absolutely from hua quan system.

lian huan quan was renamed from lian hua quan, which means lotus flower boxing. this came from white lotus/boxer rebellion. after white lotus got suppressed again name was changed.

lian hua quan is very recent creation and its poems mainly focuses on fighting europeans.

SHemmati

11-06-2014, 01:30 PM

...It's also not just a single form, but an entire stick fighting system.
in most cases the Shaolin styles have originally one or a couple of forms. but there's more additional form created and dedicated to the temple by other people. like small and big Hong quan, which have a number of such additional forms. not sure, but the story of these additional yin shou gun forms is most probably of this kind.

Nanyuan Tongbiquan is "Renshou Tongbiquan". It's a different subsystem from Nanyuan Tongbeiquan. They aren't actually Da and Xiao pairs, and they are both long forms broken into three parts for instructional videos. I confirm that from my Nanyuan lineage.

RenDaHai has confirmed from his Xiyuan lineage, they also have Tongbeiquan, and there is another standard Shaolin Tongbiquan that is not Renshou Tongbiquan, nor is it anything like Tongbeiquan.

Despite what you may have read and image of history you now hold, these are confirmed from the source. You still have some things mixed up. There is more, and it is confusing, but these are the facts according to the actual lineages that train these.
actually, this is the case with any small&big pairs in Shaolin quan. usually these small&big forms are of different eras, different systems and origins. what makes them the pair is not the history, origin, or system, but the 'technical' kind of similarity and mutual cooperation.

the long forms broken into 3 parts is a tradition, nothing recent. most people know 2 parts of the 3, or just 1, but all know the exact position of the 3 sections in the forms because they have learned it in their lineages. also, most the video instructors just perform exact 2 or all the 3 such parts of the forms absolutely without even mentioning anything of these breaks and this 3-part tradition. the only person clearly mentioning it, as i recall, is Shi Deyang. nobody else.

but about Tong Bi/Bei quan. in the names yes. we know a portion of monks call those forms Tong Bei. that may have some technical reason because of that kind of backward maneuver in that Nanyuan style (picture) (http://i.yai.bz/Assets/50/072/l_p0001707250.jpg). though it's not similar to the famous Tong Bei quan backward maneuver (picture) (http://www.luyanwushu.com/images/wu-tongbei.jpg), it's a backward maneuver after all. i just know one form of xiyuan big Tong Bi quan, it may also have some such method to justify the name to be Tong Bei, meaning 'through-the-back'. but, whatever called, Tong Bi or Bei or anything, these Shaolin forms have no technical, and as far as there's documents, neither historical connection with the famous, non-Shaolin, Tong Bei quan. these styles are irrelevant, just there's similarity of the names. (and there's more to this: Shaolin xin yi quan, mi zong quan, and many other Shaolin styles are irrelevant to the more famous non-Shaolin styles with these same names. this needs a thread.)

These are both translations of the same characters 看家, not different names. Kanjiaquan...
right, the same characters. but different meanings, so different names. like the case of Jin Gang, for Vajrapani and for diamond, the same characters, different meanings.
the old style created by FuJu or FuYu, though special, it actually meant to 'guard the home.' according to the quan pu it was created for the temple guardians. also, there's one style mostly known in abbot Yongxin's lineage with the actual meaning of 'special.' a short spectacular form. and, as said, many lineages have their 'special' styles.
______

this thread is of an orphan topic itself. but it gets interesting with the various topics discussed.

RenDaHai

11-06-2014, 04:26 PM

In SongShan TongBei has as many sets as HongQuan. Whichever style, whichever village there will be at least a TongBei or a HongQuan or both.

Its true the names TongBi and TongBei are often confounded. Shaolin has both and lots of both. Arm and back can both be pronounced in a similar manner, added with local accents it makes it next to impossible to confirm which is the original. But we like to draw a sharp difference in our clan. Forms from TongBei are obvious.

Many forms, e.g MeiHuaDiTang, DaLiuHe are parts of TongBei. The nanyuan Tongbei quan is very closely related to XiaoTongbeiquan (known as DaLiuHeQuan now) contains the same major techniques but a different form, and as such is compatible.

The Renshou set often referred to as XiaoTongBi is of no relation to the rest of Tongbei. It should be TongBi as there is a connection with Monkey style. It appears in the nanyuan however there is a form in the XiYuan with a lot of crossover, the set is known as YuanHouQuan (monkey fist). This is just the common name, its proper name is RuanJiaChui. I believe this is the XiYuan equivilent of Renshou tongbi.

To make things more confusing there is also a TongBi quan meaning 'Bronze arm' boxing. The drift in names because of illiteracy and the similar sound of Chinese characters is a constant source of frustration to me.

Its a maze to try to discover these names, but forms are easily connected when we look at the techniques they contain. This is harder to do these days because of the mixing of so many clans in the current syllabus, but usually when finding the best version we see the character of its techniques.

LFJ

11-06-2014, 07:39 PM

i just know one form of xiyuan big Tong Bi quan, it may also have some such method to justify the name to be Tong Bei, meaning 'through-the-back'. but, whatever called, Tong Bi or Bei or anything, these Shaolin forms have no technical, and as far as there's documents, neither historical connection with the famous, non-Shaolin, Tong Bei quan.

I don't believe anyone said so, but what form do you mean? You're probably talking about Tongbeiquan if you mean the standard often taught alongside Hongquan.

I know of Renshou Tongbiquan and a standard Shaolin Tongbiquan which RenDaHai's shifu mentioned, saying it is also completely separate from Tongbeiquan. Don't know if RenDaHai has gotten to it yet...? But the others are called Tongbeiquan, in Xiyuan and Nanyuan.

right, the same characters. but different meanings, so different names. like the case of Jin Gang, for Vajrapani and for diamond, the same characters, different meanings.

It doesn't work like that. Vajra also means diamond. Jingang is just a Chinese translation of that. It's one word, used in a name. We're just looking at it in three different languages.

the old style created by FuJu or FuYu, though special, it actually meant to 'guard the home.' according to the quan pu it was created for the temple guardians. also, there's one style mostly known in abbot Yongxin's lineage with the actual meaning of 'special.' a short spectacular form. and, as said, many lineages have their 'special' styles.

Each sect's Kanjiaquan is their style used to guard the sect; such as Xiaosihui in Zhenxu's sect from Nanyuan Tongbeiquan. You're seeing different translations and thinking they are completely separate ideas. It's one word in Chinese. The primary meaning is to guard the household. It also has the meaning of "special" skill because it's the techniques used to guard each sect, like their specialty. Same idea.

LFJ

11-06-2014, 08:05 PM

the old style created by FuJu or FuYu, though special, it actually meant to 'guard the home.' according to the quan pu it was created for the temple guardians.

By the way, if you're talking about the 13 road "Kanjiaquan" that Shi Dejun has videos out on on some of the sets, it has similarities to Renshou Tongbiquan, similar to the rest of the 8 "Luohan Shiba Shou" sets in the Encyclopedia, so must be the Kanjia style from the Tongbiquan of their sect. "Kanjiaquan" is not really a specific style name, but a title of its importance and position within a given sect. And originally the gate guards of the monastery trained different kinds of Tongbi/Tongbei, which would naturally also be called Kanjiaquan...

Firehawk4

11-06-2014, 09:39 PM

What is the Lohan style that Peng Chy Kim and Don F Draeger have in there book Shaolin Lohan Kung Fu is this System Luo Han Shi Ba Shou (Luo Han 18 Hands) ?

RenDaHai

11-06-2014, 09:46 PM

By the way, if you're talking about the 13 road "Kanjiaquan" that Shi Dejun has videos out on on some of the sets, it has similarities to Renshou Tongbiquan, similar to the rest of the 8 "Luohan Shiba Shou" sets in the Encyclopedia, so must be the Kanjia style from the Tongbiquan of their sect. "Kanjiaquan" is not really a specific style name, but a title of its importance and position within a given sect. And originally the gate guards of the monastery trained different kinds of Tongbi/Tongbei, which would naturally also be called Kanjiaquan...

For example our KanJia Quan is YeXing Quan (nightwalker fist) because invaders will come in at night in complete darkness so one must have techniques for such an occurance (this is somewhat less important post electricity but still interesting).

In MoGou village their KanJia Quan is LaoHong Quan, it contains some of the best techniques and it is short enough and easy enough for a whole village to learn.

Luotuoyuan village has Taizu ChangQuan as their KanJia Quan.

Even individual Wushu families here will have their own KanJia Quan, so there are many. However often the KanJia Quan will have an alternative name. 13 Lou KanJia Quan has many alternative names and versions.

sha0lin1

11-07-2014, 01:08 PM

What is the Lohan style that Peng Chy Kim and Don F Draeger have in there book Shaolin Lohan Kung Fu is this System Luo Han Shi Ba Shou (Luo Han 18 Hands) ?

Probably not since they claim a southern style of Shaolin called Hood Khar Pai which I have never heard of before.

SHemmati

11-07-2014, 02:10 PM

Many forms, e.g MeiHuaDiTang, DaLiuHe are parts of TongBei.
add to this the 2nd form of Taizu Chang quan, at least it's the 2nd form to Taizu Chang quan as mentioned by the Encyclopedia. so in your xiyuan sect the 3 forms of Liu Zhenhai's so-called xiao Tong Bi quan are the Tong Bei quan. then what is the standard so-called da Tong Bi quan called there? Bi or Bei? i mean the standard Shaolin da Tong Bi quan, which should have 2 more forms there. this Shaolin standard da Tong Bi quan (or Bei) has a big technical share with Taizu Chang quan itself. i have some more words on this to be said in following posts.

The Renshou set often referred to as XiaoTongBi is of no relation to the rest of Tongbei. It should be TongBi as there is a connection with Monkey style. It appears in the nanyuan however there is a form in the XiYuan with a lot of crossover, the set is known as YuanHouQuan (monkey fist). This is just the common name, its proper name is RuanJiaChui. I believe this is the XiYuan equivilent of Renshou tongbi.
there's a hou quan that is said to based on which this renshou Tong Bi qua has been created. it's much similar to this renshou form. probably this yuan hou style you've seen is the same. to add to that, i've heard in Kaifeng they have a couple of Tong Bi Yuan (Tong Bi ape) quan forms, which is also similar to nanyuan Tong Bi quan. also, the northern and eastern courtyards(yuan's) should have their tong bi/bei quans, cause it's allegedly the most diversified Shaolin style.

...The drift in names because of illiteracy and the similar sound of Chinese characters is a constant source of frustration to me.
haha! right. even i'm not sure the Chinese people themselves exactly understand what they hear or read. to add to the frustration, i have to say that, right now, in your profile you ought to change the word 空(kong) to 宗(zong), 禅宗派(chan zong pai) Chan school kung fu, is it this? that's the Chinese language anyway, we have to put up with it in whole our lives.
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I don't believe anyone said so, but what form do you mean? You're probably talking about Tongbeiquan if you mean the standard often taught alongside Hongquan.
no, right, nobody said that. i just had a point in that to notify the very difference between the non-Shaolin Daoist Tong Bei quan and the Shaolin style, whatever called Tong Bi or Bei. yes, the standard so-called da Tong Bi quan everyone knows. so it's called Tong Bei quan! well. the Shaolin quan pu, which is from before the fire of 1928 and is said to have not been tampered with since then, calls it Tong Bi quan, it's said by many sources to be Han Tong's style. however, i add that i know several other old sources which call it Tong Bei quan. the style names always change from lineage to lineage, and the original names may had even been something else.
the names themselves are not so important, but when the name of two different styles is the same then that needs clarification or else, confusion occurs. this is the case we have with most the famous Shaolin styles, so i said i think this needs its own thread.

It doesn't work like that. Vajra also means diamond. Jingang is just a Chinese translation of that. It's one word, used in a name. We're just looking at it in three different languages.

Each sect's Kanjiaquan is their style used to guard the sect; such as Xiaosihui in Zhenxu's sect from Nanyuan Tongbeiquan. You're seeing different translations and thinking they are completely separate ideas. It's one word in Chinese. The primary meaning is to guard the household. It also has the meaning of "special" skill because it's the techniques used to guard each sect, like their specialty. Same idea.
literally, yes it's that. the Chinese tend to shorten the names. e.g., of Vajra in Shaolin kung fu we usually mean Vajrapani, Buddha's powerful attendants, and the Vajra, the diamond, is the Vajrapani(s)'s weapon. the incident is, the Vajrapani(s) and the diamond are both powerful; this makes the two words reasonably interchangeable. kan jia for 'guard the home' and 'special,' yea, right. it also the way you said is interchangeable.

By the way, if you're talking about the 13 road "Kanjiaquan" that Shi Dejun has videos out on...
since you mentioned Shi Dejun. he doesn't do the form completely, there he drops out some cool stunts in the forms and simplifies parts of the rest. there's somebody else from a northern style who have inherited this Kanjia quan under a different name. there's his performance at the end of his instructional video, identical to the Encyclopedia: Shaolin Kan Jia quan, form 1 of 13 [by Liu Yi] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1X3VNVPj9s)

SHemmati

11-07-2014, 02:21 PM

i had a pictorial description on the 1st form of Luohan 18 hands (aka xiao si hui). i post it in the following posts, when turning back to its topic.

SHemmati

11-07-2014, 02:25 PM

RenDaHai

11-08-2014, 06:42 AM

add to this the 2nd form of Taizu Chang quan, at least it's the 2nd form to Taizu Chang quan as mentioned by the Encyclopedia. so in your xiyuan sect the 3 forms of Liu Zhenhai's so-called xiao Tong Bi quan are the Tong Bei quan. then what is the standard so-called da Tong Bi quan called there? Bi or Bei? i mean the standard Shaolin da Tong Bi quan, which should have 2 more forms there. this Shaolin standard da Tong Bi quan (or Bei) has a big technical share with Taizu Chang quan itself. i have some more words on this to be said in following posts.

there's a hou quan that is said to based on which this renshou Tong Bi qua has been created. it's much similar to this renshou form. probably this yuan hou style you've seen is the same. to add to that, i've heard in Kaifeng they have a couple of Tong Bi Yuan (Tong Bi ape) quan forms, which is also similar to nanyuan Tong Bi quan. also, the northern and eastern courtyards(yuan's) should have their tong bi/bei quans, cause it's allegedly the most diversified Shaolin style.

haha! right. even i'm not sure the Chinese people themselves exactly understand what they hear or read. to add to the frustration, i have to say that, right now, in your profile you ought to change the word 空(kong) to 宗(zong), 禅宗派(chan zong pai) Chan school kung fu, is it this? that's the Chinese language anyway, we have to put up with it in whole our lives.
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The Standard DaTongbei is bei. Its the same style as the XiaoTongbei, they go together perfectly. Tongbei is shaolins most longfist style, though Shaolin often gets called longfist the vast majority is duanda and tieshenkao but Tongbei is long fist. This also goes together with the NanyuanDaTongbei that Deyang performs, looking closely you will see the overlap in techniques between NanyuanDatongbei and XiaoTongbei er lu (also known as Daliuhequan and perhaps erlutaizuchangquan but I would have to see the lyrics)

I am assuming Renshoutongbi (Bi) is related to RuanJiaChui but I can't confirm this, its more a hunch.

Thats a reasonable guess, ChanZongPai would work, however it is specifically ChanKONG, i.e 'Meditation on the void'.

LFJ

11-08-2014, 09:48 AM

the style names always change from lineage to lineage, and the original names may had even been something else.

True, but we finally have things ironed out with our current naming. All those Da and Xiao forms by various names in Xiyuan are Tongbeiquan in RenDaHai's sect. In Nanyuan there is Tongbeiquan with the Xiaosihui being its Kanjiaquan, and Renshou Tongbiquan, as they are named in my sect. So that has all been put to bed. There is just one other standard Shaolin Tongbiquan which RenDaHai's shifu mentioned is separate from the above systems, but is "full arm" techniques. Maybe that's their Xiyuan Tongbiquan, but I haven't heard if he's seen it or learned it yet...

there's somebody else from a northern style who have inherited this Kanjia quan under a different name. there's his performance at the end of his instructional video, identical to the Encyclopedia: Shaolin Kan Jia quan, form 1 of 13 [by Liu Yi] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1X3VNVPj9s)

Cool. He called it Xinggongquan. I looked it up. It's said to have 10 sets and was previously just called Shaolinquan with no other name. But since Shaolin is too common and widespread it was given the name Xinggongquan. I definitely think it bears similarities to the so-called "Luohan Shiba Shou" sets in the Encyclopedia, which must be some sort or other of Tongbiquan. That's my impression.

RenDaHai

11-09-2014, 03:04 AM

RenDaHai's shifu mentioned is separate from the above systems, but is "full arm" techniques. Maybe that's their Xiyuan Tongbiquan, but I haven't heard if he's seen it or learned it yet...

Haven't learned or seen it, just a few moves. There are too many sets that take priority over this one.

Sal Canzonieri

11-13-2014, 09:26 PM

Jiazi Quan was an ancient Muslim martial art from western China that also was the basis from which the Muslim Cha Quan and Hua Quan systems in Shandong were developed from. Mi Zhong Quan also has a similar Jiazi Quan training set. Jiazi Quan’was also known as “Dajia Quan” - Large Frame Boxing, as was called the oldest branch of Meihua Zhuang. All three of these now widespread in Shandong styles originally came
from Western China, suggesting that there may be a common source to the foundational material of the various Muslim
practiced Shandong martial art styles. Meihua Zhuang also shares much with Liuhe Men, another Chinese Muslim
practiced martial art.

Hua Quan 18 Louhan Hands - Luoyang Long Men Connection
(Famous Xin Yi Quan practitioner) Ma Xueli lived in Luoyang city, which was very close to the Shaolin temple. Luoyang is known for many martial
arts styles. One such style that existed there from before Ji Longfeng’s time is called the “Long Men” (龍門) –
Dragon’s Gate or School from Shanxi, which is now practiced in Luoyang within the “Zhong Hua Si Mian Ba Fang
Tong Bei Quan” system. Long Men ancestor Wang Jiang (with his four apprentices), practiced this art secretly after
coming to Jun Tun village (Luoyang), from Hongdong County (Shanxi Province) during the early Ming era (around
1300). Thus, long before the formation of Xinyi Quan.
Later, the next generation (consisting of Wang Leng Zi, Wang Jia Zi, and Wang Er Jia) at some point exchanged
some of their skills with boxers from Shandong Province. They practiced a Long Men set called “Long Men Quan”
(Dragon Gate Fist) that is also practiced with the same exact movements by the Cai family lineage of “Hua (華) Quan”
– Glorious Boxing style, from Shandong province. This set is also practiced at Shaolin under the name “Luohan Shiba
Shou” – Luohan 18 Hands. It is a two person set. In the two person version of this routine, side 1 can be done with a
staff, side 2 with a knife or sword. It features the animal postures seen in Shandong Hua Quan, such as Eagle, Monkey,
Leopard, Tiger, Dragon, and others.

The opening five movements that correspond to these animals are very similar to the Five Elements movements
of Pi Quan, Zhuan Quan, Beng Quan, Pao Quan, and Heng Quan, which are foundational to Xinyi Quan / Xingyi
Quan. The first four postures correspond faithfully. Originally in ancient times there were only four elements used,
much later Heng (earth) was added. In Xing Yi, Heng (earth) is supposed to be all the other elements together as one,
so it is at the center of the four elements. This is true of the fifth and sixth postures, if done successively they indeed
correspond to the movements of Heng (earth) Quan as well. The rest of the postures correspond well to Dragon, Tiger,
Horse, Hawk, Swallow, and other animal movements seen in Xinyi and Xingyi. Being that this set, originally from Hua
Quan of Shandong, has been practiced in Luoyang for a few hundred years before Ji Longfeng’s art reached Ma Xueli
of Luoyang, and was preserved by local Luoyang Tongbei Quan practitioners, and strikingly shares some important
attributes with the Henan and Shanxi Xinyi based martial arts, its calls for more serious research to explore any
possible root relationship they share, especially since these styles all converge within Luoyang.