Circles vs Straight Lines

[BillC.]

Hi, Guys.

Wing Chun makes use of straight line punches (Walk the Line Not the Bow,etc.) a priority, seemingly to the exclusion of all others.
I know that the forms include other striking movements, but I get the feeling that these take a back seat in terms of useful application.

Personally, I think a mania for straight line punching to be a drawback, as it's not the strongest punch available in the WC arsenal.
Straight lines are not the be-all and end-all of Wing Chun.....

Whilst practicing myself, I feel that motions describing combinations of small, circular motions in various joints & limbs
generate greater energy than piston like movements, ie - straight line punches.

What do you think?

[kung fu fighter]

Hi, Guys.

Wing Chun makes use of straight line punches (Walk the Line Not the Bow,etc.) a priority, seemingly to the exclusion of all others.
I know that the forms include other striking movements, but I get the feeling that these take a back seat in terms of useful application.

"Walk the Line Not the Bow" has many layers of meaning depending on your level, which i am not going to get into.

In actual application Wing chun uses an equal amount of of circles and angular lines, never "straight lines". Straight lines are just for beginners since it's much simpler for them to grasp, or to practice line drills in a group class setting.


Personally, I think a mania for straight line punching to be a drawback, as it's not the strongest punch available in the WC arsenal.
Straight lines are not the be-all and end-all of Wing Chun.....

The higher level forms of wck includes uppercuts, shovel hooks, downward back fist strikes, hammer fist strikes to the groin, horizontal back fists with waist torque. there are also angular phenix eye and ginger fist strikes, chops and finger pokes, as well as 8 different basic angles for kicking. in addition there are 8 different angles for elbow strikes, 5 different angles for shoulder strikes, 5 different angles for hip strikes, 5 different angles for knee strikes. there are even 8 angles for head butts. These are just off the top of my head, there are probably more.


Whilst practicing myself, I feel that motions describing combinations of small, circular motions in various joints & limbs
generate greater energy than piston like movements, ie - straight line punches.

Correct! Even when doing the basic straight punch, the 7 joints of the body all torque to generate the force.

[RenDaHai]

There is an ancient principle used in pretty much all styles I have encountered.

'Da yi tiao xian', strike in a straight line.

Interestingly it does NOT mean to do a straight punch.

It means often the opposite, to strike directly from where your hand is to the target. For example, say my hand is above my head, the straight line punch is a chop, if I were to do a straight punch from this position I would have to first withdraw my hand along a curved path to strike straight. If I have blocked slightly to the outside, then returning with a hook to the jaw would be the straight line punch, since it is the straightest path to the target and back to my centre.

Very often doing an actual straight punch violates the straight line rule. Your hands cannot move well in straight lines because of the articulation of the joints, small circles generate power.

This is for styles like Shaolin in central China, but I think it is not out of place in WC.

[LFJ]

Whilst practicing myself, I feel that motions describing combinations of small, circular motions in various joints & limbs
generate greater energy than piston like movements, ie - straight line punches.

That's why SNT isn't for application, and we have body methods in CK for developing knockout power without having to take circular punching paths.

My VT doesn't have all the "higher level" techniques kung fu fighter's does though... :(

[BillC.]

Correct! Even when doing the basic straight punch, the 7 joints of the body all torque to generate the force.

The 7 joints being used to provide torque: Ankle, Knee, Hip, Spine, Shoulder, Elbow, Wrist?
Many thanks for your reply. Liked it.

[BillC.]

There is an ancient principle used in pretty much all styles I have encountered.

'Da yi tiao xian', strike in a straight line.

Interestingly it does NOT mean to do a straight punch.

It means often the opposite, to strike directly from where your hand is to the target.

That's such an interesting reply.
And yes, I can see that what you say is true:
Simultaneous combinations of torquing circular movements.
Resulting in the fist describing a straight line as it travels.
But the motions involved in producing the punch in the rest of the body are anything but straight!

[Grumblegeezer]

That's such an interesting reply.
And yes, I can see that what you say is true:
Simultaneous combinations of torquing circular movements.
Resulting in the fist describing a straight line as it travels.
But the motions involved in producing the punch in the rest of the body are anything but straight!

Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM_IbemaFQo

And this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvJfPOAsw68

And this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLRwBsCgFCA

Some other random observations: I'm told that due to the curvature of space-time, Straight lines do not exist.

Finally, I walk the bow-string. This guy walked the line: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHF9itPLUo4

[BillC.]

Like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM_IbemaFQo

And this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvJfPOAsw68

And this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLRwBsCgFCA



OMG! You all see that too in your own WC? Yes machinery! When practicing, I see flywheels turning.
Circular into angular motion, angular into linear motion - Flywheel to camshaft, camshaft to pitman screw, etc.
When trying to describe what I meant to another chunner,
I tried using exactly that kind of 'mechanical' analogy:
Pistons, camshafts & rockers, Steam train wheels & Power press action.
Also, the turnstile - good one! angled / offset from the vertical circular motion.
All I got back was blank looks, and a "'NO! that's not Wing Chun."

[BillC.]

....without having to take circular punching paths.(

But it would be correct to say that some WC punches do exactly that - take circular paths?
If you couldn't penetrate your opponents inside area (too well guarded) then you could strike in this way:
From Man Sao or Wu Sao, circling around the inside through outside, impacting (side of opponents head)
then cutting back in a straight line to Man Sao / Wu Sao?

[Wu Wei Wu]

Practice against a reasonably skilled Chi Sao player, spar and do clinch work and it becomes self evident whether Wing Chun is linear, circular, or a myriad of all types of motions.

Suki

[LFJ]

But it would be correct to say that some WC punches do exactly that - take circular paths?

Maybe in other systems. I may use the core for torque and turn to face my target as I punch as they attempt to evade, which can create knockout power, but as RenDaHai described, my fist, from whatever position will travel the most direct line to the target. Those actions from the forms that people think are uppercuts or hook punches, in my system, are actually just cutting inward from the outside, using the elbow to sweep the line as the fist travels directly to the target from wherever it is.


If you couldn't penetrate your opponents inside area (too well guarded) then you could strike in this way:
From Man Sao or Wu Sao, circling around the inside through outside, impacting (side of opponents head)
then cutting back in a straight line to Man Sao / Wu Sao?

I wouldn't fight straight up the middle anyway, so I wouldn't need to give up the most direct striking path. Unlike other WC systems, man and wu don't have to occupy the center to dominate it. Rather, the elbow is used to clear the line as the fist travels straight to the target, as I just described. As long as you have body methods and footwork from CK, you can create knockout power without resorting to circular striking paths. Some don't, because they focus too much on application ideas. So to make up for it, they take circular striking paths to generate power, which is not how my VT functions, at least.

[BillC.]

.....it becomes self evident whether Wing Chun is linear, circular, or a myriad of all types of motions.

Suki

I'd have to agree with you.
Even between two differing lineages, practice & techniques were linear, almost maniacally so.
Coming back to WC now, what's being demonstrated & practiced is markedly different.
So much so that it's taken me quite some time to come to terms with it.
As you said: 'A myriad of all types of motions'.

[Wu Wei Wu]

The irony is that the Wing Chun fraternity is a group of non-fighters, led by an ancestry of theoretians. The debate centers around theory and how it can be practically applied in a live, dynamic environment. Yet, the efficient method would be to learn movements and expose the practitioner to a challenging environment with a degree of controlled variables, but one containing enough resistance for the student to learn what works. Allow it to be self evident rather than entrapment in notions of energies, Kuen kuit and forms.

Wing Chun is merely a vehicle to understand and engage in fighting IMO.

Suki

[BillC.]

The irony is that the Wing Chun fraternity is a group of non-fighters, led by an ancestry of theoretians..... Suki

I had to laugh.......'live' & 'dynamic' are two words that don't sit well with WC at all.
It's one thing to be theoretical, quite another to try to apply your WC in a fight.
I feel that in a 'real' fight, you'd never see any 'traditional' WC shapes, movements or techniques as you would when practicing them.
You could apply them - but it wouldn't look like a kung fu film fight, chi sao, etc.
Wing Chun in a fight doesn't look like two WC guys doing chi sao.

Fights are chaotic, random events containing chaotic, random moments.
You have to try to make sense of that with your WC.

Off topic, it's the same with the 50/50 thing.
Your balance & center of gravity are controlled dynamically.
You are never 50/50 static. you move moment to moment from 90/10 to 60/40 to 50/50 and back again in a continuous flowing manner.
You never stay on one point of the foot, but sometimes more heel, sometimes more sole, sometimes more on the ball.
The guy who's trying to teach me says that WC is all ifs, buts & maybes. I think that is so true.
You adjust according to circumstance, moment to moment.

[Wu Wei Wu]

*i misspelled theoreticians.

The problem is that discussions are a huge hindrance to a persons development in Wing Chun. There is so much misinformation that is spread by people who hold themselves out as authorities. Additionally, the ones with the loudest voices are seldom the best practitioners.

I say this will full sincerity, remembering with dismay how my genuine curiosity as a newbie meant I put too much reliance in forums like this and the Wing Chun mailing list. I have discovered more about Wing Chun in a single hour of sparring against a skilled fighter than I have in two decades of navigating the Wing Chun landscape of monotonous chatter.

If you want to become functional:

Find decent martial artists from opposing systems who also seek improvement.
Incorporate safe sparring practices working within a frame of Deliberate Practice.
Test out Wing Chun movements, but don't be afraid to abandon them in favour of what feels right in the circumstances.

Random thoughts...


Suki

[Grumblegeezer]

The problem is that discussions are a huge hindrance to a persons development in Wing Chun. There is so much misinformation that is spread by people who hold themselves out as authorities. Additionally, the ones with the loudest voices are seldom the best practitioners...

This is so true. People even ask me for advice on forums. Ha ha ha ha ha....

Oh and with reference to those loud voices... I am reminded of a Chinese proverb my old sifu once used: The bottle that is only half full makes the most noise.

OK I didn't get it. So he added "When shaken. --empty bottles and full bottles are silent. Now you understand?"

[deejaye72]

There is an ancient principle used in pretty much all styles I have encountered.

'Da yi tiao xian', strike in a straight line.

Interestingly it does NOT mean to do a straight punch.

It means often the opposite, to strike directly from where your hand is to the target. For example, say my hand is above my head, the straight line punch is a chop, if I were to do a straight punch from this position I would have to first withdraw my hand along a curved path to strike straight. If I have blocked slightly to the outside, then returning with a hook to the jaw would be the straight line punch, since it is the straightest path to the target and back to my centre.

Very often doing an actual straight punch violates the straight line rule. Your hands cannot move well in straight lines because of the articulation of the joints, small circles generate power.

This is for styles like Shaolin in central China, but I think it is not out of place in WC.

very interesting, thought provoking reply!

[BillC.]

Find decent martial artists from opposing systems who also seek improvement.
Incorporate safe sparring practices working within a frame of Deliberate Practice.
Test out Wing Chun movements, but don't be afraid to abandon them in favour of what feels right in the circumstances.
Suki

I'd have to agree with you there too.....Sparring is essential.
I don't like doing it, but without it, you may as well be practicing morris dancing.
Safe working practices - Yep. Sparring isn't Celebrity Deathmatch.
Test it out - I have to agree here too.
It's a bit hokey to say so, but I think Bruce Lee had the right idea:
Less form, more practical.

[kung fu fighter]

I'd have to agree with you there too.....Sparring is essential.
I don't like doing it, but without it, you may as well be practicing morris dancing.
Safe working practices - Yep. Sparring isn't Celebrity Deathmatch.
Test it out - I have to agree here too.
It's a bit hokey to say so, but I think Bruce Lee had the right idea:
Less form, more practical.

Karl Marx (1819-83) said "Practice without Theory is blind, Theory without practice is sterile.
"Experience without theory is blind, but theory without experience is mere intellectual play." Immanuel Kant

I say "practice without theory is wasted effort". I believe both are equally as important, otherwise would not need a knowledgeable teacher.

[Wu Wei Wu]

I'm not sure how Marx or Kant are any relevance here. This is neither a discussion on the Communist Manifesto nor Metaphysical logic. If you are to cite philosophers, at least Popper and Kuhn applied would provide ideas on a scientific approach to relevant data.

In any event, no one disputes practice (leading to experience) led by sound theories and principles of fighting. But most instructors are so consumed with the angle, use and function of a, for example, tan sau, that they forget that they are being punched in the head. Losing sight of the forest...

What I proposed earlier, was a simplified model of converting theory to practical application using resistance within a controlled fighting environment. You then allow that process to be a guide for what is functional and what is useless. Let the fighting process be a teacher!

Random thoughts...


Suki

[mawali]

One can always know people by how they respond to stimuli, real or imagined!:D
The politics of Marx is of little or no importance but what he says is indicative of how people can be tricked into stuff by their own choice(s). Is finger pointing to the moon about direction, finger, moon or space (vastness and unfathomable emptiness). Only one's hairdresser knows for sure, I think therefore I am not or am I ???

[BillC.]

...most instructors are so consumed with the angle, use and function of a, for example, tan sau, that they forget that they are being punched in the head. Losing sight of the forest...

:) Yep.


What I proposed earlier, was a simplified model of converting theory to practical application using resistance within a controlled fighting environment. You then allow that process to be a guide for what is functional and what is useless. Let the fighting process be a teacher!

Agreed...Most WC I've seen in class usually amounts to mental masturbation with a bit of PT thrown in, when all is said & done, WC is about fighting.
Not WC vs WC; it's about WC vs your opponent who is using non-WC techniques and isn't being compliant in his actions with regards to WC theory.

[BillC.]

Karl Marx (1819-83) said "Practice without Theory is blind, Theory without practice is sterile.
"Experience without theory is blind, but theory without experience is mere intellectual play." Immanuel Kant

I say "practice without theory is wasted effort". I believe both are equally as important, otherwise would not need a knowledgeable teacher.

:)

Albert Einstein 1879-1955 "The only source of knowledge is experience."

I was going to quote from Kant, but he's a bit too metaphysical for me.

Theory does have it's place. But it isn't the be-all-and-end-all of WC And a theory is just that. A Theory.

"If facts don't fit the theory, change the facts." Einstein

[anerlich]

Great. So a discussion about shapes in WC morphs into an argument about whose quotes are the cleverest.

"99% of all internet quotes are made up on the spot" - Genghis Khan

[BillC.]

Great. So a discussion about shapes in WC morphs into an argument about whose quotes are the cleverest.

"99% of all internet quotes are made up on the spot" - Genghis Khan

So your contribution to this thread is both argumentative and includes a clever quote,
complaining about disparaging arguments and clever quotes that appear in the thread?

I'm somewhat willing to hang my head in shame - As I do take your point:
When I joined this forum, I promised myself not get into the silly and puerile tit for tat exchanges that actually discouraged me form joining it earlier.

So having said that, I'd like to have an intelligent post from you now, on the subject this thread covers.
I have found the posts that other people have left here to be both enjoyable to read, and helpful to my on approach to and perception of WC.

Many Thanks,
BillC.

[anerlich]

So your contribution to this thread is both argumentative and includes a clever quote, complaining about disparaging arguments and clever quotes that appear in the thread?

Argumentative... how? I'm glad you found Genghis' quote clever. For maximum impact, I suggest you respond in less than a week, rather than wait nearly an entire month.


So having said that, I'd like to have an intelligent post from you now, on the subject this thread covers.

You must learn to live with disappointment, grasshopper.

As for intelligent posts, I think I've had my moments, should you wish to peruse my back catalog.


I'm somewhat willing to hang my head in shame

I'm not.

The position for my forum conscience is taken. But thanks for applying. Don't call us, we'll call you.

[BillC.]

Argumentative... how? I'm glad you found Genghis' quote clever. For maximum impact, I suggest you respond in less than a week, rather than wait nearly an entire month.



You must learn to live with disappointment, grasshopper.

As for intelligent posts, I think I've had my moments, should you wish to peruse my back catalog.



I'm not.

The position for my forum conscience is taken. But thanks for applying. Don't call us, we'll call you.

Your points are taken, notes to self made.
And yes. I did find your Genghis quote amusing.

[anerlich]

Your points are taken, notes to self made.
And yes. I did find your Genghis quote amusing.

BillC, you are a gentleman. More so certainly than I.

To try to deliver on your request:

One issue with discussing martial arts in terms of straight lines and circles is that most of what goes on is done in three dimensions.

Or, as the core polemicist of the alleged nascent Western Wing Chun revolution would have it, we have to consider "six directional force vectors" (was it dimensional or directional? For some reason I wasn't paying close attention).

True (with some license) the basic punch has the fist moving in a single dimension, and strikes with the elbows, or roundhouse kicks, involve the striking point/surface moving in a circular motion.

Much has been made of spiralling energy, for example the bon sao spiralling forward and out.

Another example is "screwing" one's feet into the floor to keep one's structure tight, though this is more the use of effective imagery rather than actual movement. Of course, one requires the ability to turn this off and on quickly, to make use of both stability and the ability to move, lest one get caught "stuck" to the ground.

Since we all seem to love quotes here, I have an applicable one from Kenny Rogers:

You got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
Know when to run

This applies to Wing Chun and fighting on several levels. Arguably it deserves a place in the list of kuen kuit, IMO ... but I digress.

Even "spiralling energy" isn't the best term IMO. "Helical energy" might be better, as it involves three dimensions. As you all know, helix is a three dimensional curve that lies on a cylinder or cone. Dictionaries vary on the precise definition of spiral and helix, with some overlap, especially if one is trying not to be labelled as too much of a pedant.

Some compound techniques involve the use of a combination of helical energy and straight lines, e.g. lop/larp dar. The larp sao takes the attacking strike off line by enveloping it in a helix (more or less), while the other fist goes straight to the target. This of course ignores any body movement, another issue of its own.

Other stylists can use such concepts against you. For example, a poor pak sao pushing downward too much on a boxer's jab will allow him to step in ,circle (helix!) his elbow underneath and hit you on the button with the lead hook off that jab.

If unfortunate enough to be caught by a jiu jitsu guy in a paintbrush armlock, you will be able to see how his moving your hand in a straight line can result in circular torque to your shoulder, with pain and damage as potential outcomes. Tap twice using straight lines for the fastest possible release would be my suggestion.

Some Choy Li Fut punches were, according to legend, specifically designed to follow a helical path around the Wing Chun guard and hit the target.

Exploring another poor and inappropriate analogy to Wing Chun, we all remember how the aforementioned core polemicist of the alleged nascent Western Wing Chun revolution (from here on in referred to as the CPANWWCR for brevity, should I need it) waxed lyrical about Wing Chun. Snake/Crane, Emei, and other DNA ... the molecule of which is, of course, shaped like a double helix! Wow! Correlation, causation, or totally unrelated?

"Spiral out, keep going" - TOOL

Another quote.

Deep enough for you? No matter, as Miyamoto Mushashi said, "The Way is in training, not posting on internet forums".

Best wishes to all for 2015.

[BillC.]

You are the gentleman sir; I don't know when to keep my mouth shut / fingers off the keys at times.



You got to know when to hold 'em
Know when to fold 'em
Know when to walk away
Know when to run

This applies to Wing Chun and fighting on several levels........

That's so mind bogglingly appropriate, I'm stuck for words.



As Miyamoto Mushashi said, "The Way is in training, not posting on internet forums".

A wise man, that one. Never a truer word spoken!

It sounds naive but I've only recently begun to realise that each technique is made in three dimensions.
Your body moves through (say three basic) dimensions but you are blind to it - it's too everyday - you take it for granted.
In trying to analyze the technique, I tended to isolate out certain portions or planes of movement.
You can't isolate one from the others, your body doesn't work that way.
And then couldn't go home and practice it properly, not realizing we operate naturally moment to moment in three planes.
Not only moving in three planes - I should say spiralling / circling through or in three planes.

Your post highlighted those points just nicely.

My best wishes to you and yours for 2015

[Wu Wei Wu]

Great post(s) Andrew.

I assumed the debate was lines vs. curved motions, but I like the idea of spirals or helix structures underlying the structures. Lots of parallels in various disciplines - kundalini energy work: idea of coiled serpent at base of spine, or further developments within the field of fascia research and how (quite literally) the layers run through our body in helix formations. The idea of fascia stretching ties neatly into the internal exercises of various Gung Fu styles involving relaxation (dissolving muscular tension) and carrying out spiralling motions like silk reeling.

Yield to Reality's spiral.
We owe it our existence Where did Reality come from?
– Tao Te Ching translation by David K. Reynolds 7

Suki

[anerlich]

Great post(s) Andrew.

I assumed the debate was lines vs. curved motions, but I like the idea of spirals or helix structures underlying the structures. Lots of parallels in various disciplines - kundalini energy work: idea of coiled serpent at base of spine, or further developments within the field of fascia research and how (quite literally) the layers run through our body in helix formations. The idea of fascia stretching ties neatly into the internal exercises of various Gung Fu styles involving relaxation (dissolving muscular tension) and carrying out spiralling motions like silk reeling.

Yield to Reality's spiral.
We owe it our existence Where did Reality come from?
– Tao Te Ching translation by David K. Reynolds 7

Suki

Cheers Suki.

I had not considered these sorts of parallels. In some ways I prefer the metaphorical analogies like this to discussing purely physical shapes and movements. IMO trying to reduce complex human movement to undergraduate level physics and applied mathematics does not serve anyone well.

I've explored yoga a little this past year. Kundalini has always intrigued me, I see parallels with experiences and activities in my youth which I will not spell out (not for any arcane purpose ... they were in the early 1970s and not exactly legal but victimless, hopefully you get my drift). I'm doing some basic pranayama and meditation, but remain reluctant to delve too deep or in haste for fear of blowing some sort of spiritual gasket.

[GlennR]

Cheers Suki.

I had not considered these sorts of parallels. In some ways I prefer the metaphorical analogies like this to discussing purely physical shapes and movements. IMO trying to reduce complex human movement to undergraduate level physics and applied mathematics does not serve anyone well.

I've explored yoga a little this past year. Kundalini has always intrigued me, I see parallels with experiences and activities in my youth which I will not spell out (not for any arcane purpose ... they were in the early 1970s and not exactly legal but victimless, hopefully you get my drift). I'm doing some basic pranayama and meditation, but remain reluctant to delve too deep or in haste for fear of blowing some sort of spiritual gasket.

Gee Andrew, I always took you as the spiritual type ;)

[anerlich]

Gee Andrew, I always took you as the spiritual type ;)

Hopefully having a spiritual bent does not require one to be a total airhead as well :p