need advice - loyalty

[Kaitain(UK)]

Hi all - need some advice

History - after training Taiji for a few years with my instructor I took up Wado-Ryu with him as well to build some more balistic skills using the internal principles I'd been developing

However, the Karate just doesn't sit comfortably with me - some of the drills make no martial sense to me. When I question them I'm told to 'stick with them until you get through the grading'. I don't like this.

I'm considering dropping the Karate - what worries me is that I'm going to upset my instructor and consequently damage my Taiji instruction. I've looked at all the other Taiji schools in my area and I know that I'm training with the highest calibre available to me locally (within 1 hour each way).

Then I phoned the ICE gym - a Martial Arts facility run by Lee Banda. I was phoning to try and find a good art for my wife to study (given the recent assault and so on) - Lee then spoke to me on the phone for two hours about fear, martial arts and so on. Specifically we spoke about training 'real'. One of my problems I have is that most of my fellow students just said 'why didn't you do this' - they have no understanding of a real situation and the adrenalin problems that you run into. Lee called these people 'gentle souls' - in that they train MA as a hobby and that they never deal with these situations. He said some other things that made me realise I was talking to someone who understood what I was on about.

So now I'm really torn - my respect for my instructor is immense. However, I don't want the Karate. Lee Banda spoke about all of the things in MA that concern me. He put two hours of his time in to talk to me - that isn't something to take lightly. I will never give up the Taiji, but I need to train the 'real' somewhere.

I see my options as:
Give up the Karate, train at ICE, keep the Taiji. Tell my instructor why. (my preferred and respectful course). Risk of alienating instructor.

Keep doing the Karate, train at ICE, keep the Taiji. Say nothing - but I'm training a style I don't like.

Take up Tae Bo and drop everything else.

Drop Karate, train at ICE, keep Taiji. Say nothing - but have to explain why I'm dropping the Karate... risk of alienating instructor.

Man - I need advice...

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Wongsifu]

man i really sympathise with you i am in the same predicament only worse.
My instructor is a sanda fighter and a modern wushuist.
On the other hand he is a tai ji player also and was taught for half his life by his sifu an obscure style that has been handed down to him and another 3 people .
Personally i am beyond san shou as its great but really if i wanted the sanda i would crosstrain in muay thai and jujitsu. Also i see modern wushu as very empty as its got no applications and no space for placing intent into the movement as its done so fast its just higgeldy piggeldy dancing with flips in it.
As we are opeingin up a school together he is like you have to learn the wushu and sanda whereas i only want to learn his lineage style and the internal he knows.

Big problem as the school will teach sanda wushu and taiji. ON top of that he will leave with me in charge of the school in 2-3 years time.

So i figured this and this is what i owuld say to you also.

since it is only until the grading which isnt too far away the more different things you learn the more you will have control over your body, if you look at most wing chunners they can only move forwards backwards side to side and thats it. tkd guys can only move in a certain way they are fast with their legs and their upper body lacks severely.
whereas if you look at someone who has gone through many styles he has more mastery in any movement he does.

So just doing karate will help your tai ji .

On the other hand if you really hate it , which is how i feel about some of the san shou crap. then i think you just tell your teacher straight it was a mistake for me to join karate i would rather just practise my taiji as tai ji is complex enoguh on its own without me training my body to throw karate punches which goes against the principles of taiji...

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

[qeySuS]

I'm with Wongsifu on this, i often find it hard for me to discuss the smallest things with my teachers because i'm afraid to offend them or the style and something similar to situations like you have now.

What i learned is that the teachers usually dont have a short fuse and will keep their cool and be understanding if you just confront them pollitely, i'd often psyched up for some big question then i asked and he just took the question calmly and it was no problem. So ok i dont know your Sifu, but most of them are very reasonable and nice when you just talk to them :)

Free thinkers are dangerous!

[Sam Wiley]

Kaitain,
I'd go with your preferred course. It seems the best all the way around. And at least that way everything will be out in the open and everyone involved will understand your decision. I don't think your instructor will be offended if you do it that way. Good Luck. :)

*********

[MonkeySlap Too]

Wow have I been lucky.

Any fights I got into with my instructors had nothing to do with the training or asking questions. On the other hand, I never stayed at a school that didn't have good material. I was lucky, because for the first ten years of training I don't think anybody can be a good judge.

Kaitan - I don't know what to do in your case. Sorry.

Wongsifu- I think you are doing the right thing.

"Poor is the pupil who
does not surpass his
master" - Leonardo Da
Vinci

[Budokan]

Well, I don't know if your instructor is any good at teaching the karate style you're taking, but if you respect his technique in taiji then maybe you should take it on faith when he tells you to stick with it. Also, just because it makes no martial sense to you now doesn't mean it doesn't have any 'martial sense', and how would you know otherwise since you're just starting the style? Sounds to me like you're passing judgement on the style without knowing a heck of a lot about it, and why you're being taught the way you do. Amazing that you follow his advice so closely with the taiji but are so willing to buck his authority as your instructor when it comes to something you don't feel makes any 'martial sense.' Wow. You apparently know more than your taiji instructor, who you say you "respect" but your actions prove otherwise.

In other words, it sounds like YOU'RE the problem, not your instructor.

Wado is a pretty effective karate style; but it sounds overall that your trouble isn't with wado but karate in general.

K. Mark Hoover

[Cody]

Kaitain,
Not going into the particulars of what would be the best course of action in terms of the training itself. You do have the option to look at other training methods that might be more suited to your current needs. What is right for you and the situation is kind of up in the air for an outsider.

Central questions you address are ones of loyalty and possibly offending your present Sifu.
1. Your loyalty is to yourself, to what makes you feel alive, to not go against your nature. In a secondary sense one should have loyalty to those who teach or help you along these lines. To friends. This can be extended to loyalty to country, etc.
Loyalty implies an obligation. The bottom line of an obligation is not to betray. In some instances, departure or having loyalty for more than one place or person is considered a betrayal. Sometimes, there is no way around this. In others, a sincere respect for both sides will make things right. Being able to tell the difference is a gift. While a given loyalty might limit choice, there is a point beyond which this should not go, in my opinion.

The problem arises when one wants a change in circumstance in order to grow differently or at all. Is this disloyal? Yes and no, depending. Yet, I think we should be free to explore without Some of the issues meant to keep us in one place. Loyalty can translate into a sort of ownership, a concept which has very deep roots. And, it can be a one-way street.

It's hard to determine what a Sifu will think is disloyal, and what the consequences will be. For some, even maintaining respect for another martial art and practitioner thereof, is enough to press a button. One way of determining this is to think back as to whether your teacher has often spoken/acted mockingly (seriously) of other arts or teachers of them, especially to students who have studied them in the past.
Also, I wouldn't count on a calm demeanor on the part of a teacher when you tell him your preferences as a true indication of how he really feels. Strong or moderate interest in you as a student could have turned to indifference on a dime. Or, there might be hidden resentment. Whatever, it will be clear that you are not interested in all he has to offer, and that will offend only if he is prone to taking offense. Also, how would Lee Banda feel about your continuing T'ai Chi at the other school?

This is hard to call, and I don't quite know what to say. It's something you will have to decide. One thing, though. Staying with something you feel is wrong for you, out of guilt or fear of loss, is not the way. If you say nothing and study at the other place too, it might show in your Karate (which doesn't do anything for you to begin with), especially if the learning goes in a different direction.

It is not unheard of to openly study at different schools simultaneously, for entirely different stuff.
I don't know anything about Lee Banda. Know what? why don't you visit his school and have a look see. See how the other students move and act. See if you could fit in. Another thing to take into consider is what kind of relationship Lee Banda and your teacher have. Puts things on a level beyond your orginal question of personal loyalty. If they do know each other, how they feel might not be casually apparent. Anyhow, it's good to sniff around about this before saying more about your plans.

I know I've pointed to the less pleasant sides of the decision making process here. Some of it might have no relevance at all.

Do what is best for you. Don't try to play anyone. Play it as safe as you can, but not to to the point of chronic indecision. Try not to burn bridges and be sincere in what you do.

Budokan,
I don't know anything about Karate. I do agree that there is a problem here, and that student inexperience might come into play. My point was that if a study really turns me off, I'd be in favor of change or at least looking into options. I don't think that is wrong. The list of options presented does indicate the student is a bit lost, not having established what is correct for him as yet.

Cody

[Merryprankster]

Wong, I have to say, it's very responsible of you to suck it up and learn the things you don't like in order to further your end goal w/the school... responsibility is doing the things that need to be done when they need to be done. Props to you.

Kaitain;

I guess I pretty much disagree entirely with most of the folks on this thread. I think it's the instructor's problem, not Kaitain's.

You respect your instructor's taiji, but have a hard time swallowing his Karate. That's fine. You've told him that. That's good too. You have satisfied your duties as a student.

Here's where I have the problem:

Your instructor has failed you in this particular instance, because he has not explained the REASONS behind what you are doing. "just stick with them until grading," is the single worst possible answer to a question like that.

First, the above answer immediately makes you question his judgment. Secondly, it conveys no information, and his job is to teach, yours to learn.

I'd also like to interject that a person's ability in one area does not extend necessarily to another. He might be a great taiji instructor and a mediocre karate instructor... and because he's NOT explaining the purpose of the karate stuff to you, you have no way of judging his abilities as a karate instructor.

Your instructor OWES you an explanation, and you have every right to politely demand one. If he refuses, or provides a similar answer, then you need to see him, behind closed doors, and press him for an answer. If he still refuses, tell him it's been nice training with him, but that you don't think you can train there any longer, and find something else you are interested in.

Lastly, if he has a personal problem with you training taiji with him and going to ICE for other things then you don't need to be spending your time at his school. It would be one thing to train at two different taiji places, but you are going for completely different things.

A professional problem is different-- he may tell you he is worried that the stuff they teach at ICE is so different from your taiji that it will screw both of them up. That's COMPLETELY different... but if his issue is personal or school loyalty, then that's absurd, and speaks poorly of him.

[Kaitain(UK)]

Taiji principle - never retreat, attack and defend as one
Karate pairs work one - step back and outside block of incoming punch, sink to cat stance, then attack (front kick, reverse punch). I have been specifically told by the instructors to stop doing it as one movement in order to make sure I get the movements right. I understand the reasoning but it means that I'm moving in 1-2-3 fashion and I'm also moving backwards. Hence it makes no martial sense to someone who has trained hard to move in a 1 fashion and never to retreat and to prevent my opponent from getting beyond the start of a technique. I don't mean it won't work - just that it's against principles I have trained hard to build.

The Karate has been great whilst I've been doing the boxing drills - now I'm doing the actual Karate bit it's not so great. I train an external art so that I have training partners with good intention that want to train at a similiar level to me. I've been going to the Karate classes as a guest for about a year just to do the pad work - but if I want to train the higher level stuff I need to grade.

The reasoning for me training the Karate is to build sound external technique which I can then internalise. But now I'm doing things in the Karate that are directly opposite to the principles of Taiji - it is not an easy thing to deal with. Once I get through the 'core skills' bit of the syllabus the Wado becomes much softer and covers what I want to train.

I guess I'll go talk to him about it - my main concern is that training the Karate is going to start screwing up my Taiji, which is unacceptable. He's a good friend - comes over for BBQ's with his family, my wife went to school with his wife. I'm also mixing up my problems with Karate with my need to train 'real'. They are seperate issues.

Thanks for the alternate perspective Wongsifu. Thanks Budokan for being abrasive - I eventually drew something useful from your post (that my instructor isn't maliciously trying to FUBAR my Taiji). Thanks everyone else.

Merry - thanks for that. It's nice to see someone encouraging a questioning approach.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Shin]

I think your taiji instructor sucks, you constantly post questions regarding the most basic of internal techniques, that any good teacher should be capable of teaching you within the first few months.

No offense to you, he probably is the best around, but that doesn't make him good. I think you should drop him, and go somewhere else.

[Kaitain(UK)]

thanks for that - real constructive. I shouldn't really dignify your post, but here you are:

I constantly post questions because I want to get as much knowledge as possible - my instructor gives me his answer, the classics give me answers to try and draw from, other students give me theirs. This forum gives me a lot as well. I'm sorry that I don't approach my instructor as the font of all knowledge - I question everything I'm given and reach my own conclusions based on information and testing. I've always trained like that.

"If ignorance is bliss, why aren't more people happy?"

[Cody]

cause they're runnin' wild.

What is this principle of T'ai Chi of never retreating? I never heard of it. In Step Back and Ride the Tiger (as per Cheng Man Ch'ing's form), there is a step back. I am taking it that you regard any step back as a retreat, but that is not as cut and dried as it would appear. Retreat/avoidance is as much a part of T'ai Chi as it is of any martial art I have looked into. Learning how to step aside or back in retreat while controlling the situation is one of the great gifts of advanced T'ai Chi study. Maybe what has you befuddled is fixed step push hands, in which a step backward is sometimes not allowed.

Also, the concept and practice of defending and attacking as one is common in Chinese Martial arts of high quality and other high quality arts -- as one move having both qualities expressed, very fast. It is taught in stages, so that one day you can go from zero to 1 in a heartbeat, without messing up in between, and there's lots of room in there. When the Karate instructors say to break down the movement into discrete parts, they are correct, and that is done in T'ai Chi too. One learns the components and then builds that into as much of a unity as one can.

Cody

[Royal Dragon]

This is simple, drop the Karate, train at ICE, and maintain the current Taji Practice.

From the sounds of it, this is what will suite you, so this is what you should do. There is nothing wrong with going to different teachers for thier own respective specialty.

RD

Those that are sucessful are also the biggest failures. the difference between them and the rest of the failures is this, they keep getting up over and over again, until they succeed. "The more they try, the more they fail, BUT, the more they try & fail, the more opertunity they have to succeed, and succeed they do!!"



Check out the Royal Dragon Web site & Message Board.

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com or http://www.dreamwater.net/biz/royaldragon/

[shaolinboxer]

On three step sparring: It is important when doing these types of kata to separate the techniques into individual moves inorder to perfect each postion. However, I'm sure you will find that over time they will become just as unified as your taiji movements. There are many things that can be learned from these kata. Perhaps the most important is rhythm.

On realism training: I do not believe this actually exists. Looking for a fix for your fear is understandable, but long term training in martial arts seems much heathier than a crash course in self defense. Self defense is important to learn, but can only take you so far. It is the mind you need to train, which takes a long time. Doing realism drills are, IMO, unrealistic. But whatever makes you feel in control...

On upsetting your instructor: It frustrates me when I see or hear about instructors who become upset by you chosing a different path than they would like you to in your training. I keep my training life and personal life separate, and make it clear that I will not be controled nor manipulated. If your instructor is manipulating you, he does not have your best interests in mind.

[rubthebuddha]

i agree with Cody - you do have loyalties to yourself, and those must be met.

in addition, you have established loyalties to your sifu, and those must be obeyed as well. but loyalties don't mean blind subservience. rather, they require you to be honest with your sifu. and, as it has been mentioned, your sifu might be dropping the ball on this one, because he is obligated to do what is necessary to promote your learning. it's understandable for an instructor to respond with "give it more time and it will happen," but this should not be a standard response.

an example of why this works: when learning new wing tsun techniques, as in any art, a student's mind and body may both "just not get it." if that's the case, my sisok occasionally recommends that before we say we can't do it, we should try it 100 times. if we just can't get the slant kick to work, before accepting defeat and saying we can't do it, we need to try to do it and make darn sure we can't. usually by around repetition 20, the light bulb goes off and yes, we have an epiphane. the nice thing about such a realization? the student seems to really love the new-found technique even more because they had to work at it.

that's just an example of a teaching tactic well applied. however, if in your case it's just a standard response to your concerns, then you need to figure out exactly what you're having problems with and tell your sifu. you would not be doing your duties as a good student if you didn't tell him, and great instruction can't happen without good students to help make it work.

so i recommend that you sit down with pen and paper and write out your concerns, then pull up a chair with your sifu and chats with him (you don't need the paper - that's just to help the idears flow).

now what you decide between the schools should be obvious, but not to any of us. if you like it and want to do it and find it right for you and your body, then that's the obvious i'm talking about.

-rtb

[Colin]

Kaitain,
A few points!
Talk to your TaiJiQuan instructor and tell him you don't want to do the karate. It really is that simple, you pay your money..your wasting your time and his if you attend the class but hate it.
Tell him you want to concentrate on the Tai Ji, he will surely respect this.

Also where in London are you, because I know an instructor that teaches real Yang style Tai Ji Quan in various places around City & East London.
He also teaches Northern Shaolin Mizong Fist. So they would complement each other nicely.

Colin..............

[Shaolindynasty]

Try asking him what the purpose of learning it is. He may suprise you, I personally think he is trying to give you a well rounded base of martial arts by introducing you to the soft and the hard. Somtimes to get better in MA we have to do things we don't want to but usually they serve a purpose, so just ask him. At the same time, if he just wants you to "follow in his footsteps" or is trying to get more money from you then you need to do whats best for YOU.


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

[bamboo_ leaf]

Sounds like you have reached a crossroad in your training.
I think part of TC training is first learning to listen to your self, and then to others.
In this case I think you have already decided. Its not easy being free but I think it’s the only way to really improve.

Your outlook will change based on your experience, keep an open mind.


luck in your training :)

bamboo leaf

[iamaloser]

It seems you already know what you're looking for. Even though a school may teach "real-life" techniques in "real-life" situations, how much you learn all depends on how you like the school, instructors, and your frame of mind before, during, and after each training session. As you progress, your awareness should be improved as well as your personality and frame of mind in any situation. Do you avoid alleys? Do you have something ready to counter with while you're opening your car door at night? Do you project a strong presence so would-be attackers would sense it and avoid you as a target?