Shoulders up vs down

[S.Teebas]

boxers keep shoulders up to protect from getting knocked out. Wing chun keeps shoulders down for various other benefits... Speed, relaxation, etc...
If you get knocked out... Is it worth it?

[Sihing73]

boxers keep shoulders up to protect from getting knocked out. Wing chun keeps shoulders down for various other benefits... Speed, relaxation, etc...
If you get knocked out... Is it worth it?

If whether your have your shoulders up or down is what results in your being knocked out I would say you have other issues to worry about. ;)

[sanjuro_ronin]

boxers keep shoulders up to protect from getting knocked out. Wing chun keeps shoulders down for various other benefits... Speed, relaxation, etc...
If you get knocked out... Is it worth it?

The issue really isn't shoulders up, it is leading with your chin.
That said, boxers don't really "lift" their shoulders, they tuck in their chin.
Keeping your chin up, and by that I mean keeping it and your face in the way they always are, is a very bad habit BUT one that gets taken care of very quickly IF you spar on a regular basis.
It is true that we tend to see too many MA ( not just WC people) fight with their chin up or lead with their face BUT that is simply due to the fact that they don't spar hard contact enough.

[Kellen Bassette]

boxers keep shoulders up to protect from getting knocked out. Wing chun keeps shoulders down for various other benefits... Speed, relaxation, etc...
If you get knocked out... Is it worth it?

In Muay Thai the chin is down, shoulders shrugged up a bit. It helps hide/protect the jaw, since that is the best target for a knock out.
Keeping a high chin makes the jaw a much easier target, as Sanjuro said, it's the height of the chin that's more important.


I'd like to hear the thoughts of some Wing Chun guys, do some of you keep the chin down in your WC training? Is the raised chin we normally see from WC guys a specific strategy or just a by-product from other aspects of your structure, that could be changed without compromising posture/strategy?

[Vajramusti]

In Muay Thai the chin is down, shoulders shrugged up a bit. It helps hide/protect the jaw, since that is the best target for a knock out.
Keeping a high chin makes the jaw a much easier target, as Sanjuro said, it's the height of the chin that's more important.


I'd like to hear the thoughts of some Wing Chun guys, do some of you keep the chin down in your WC training? Is the raised chin we normally see from WC guys a specific strategy or just a by-product from other aspects of your structure, that could be changed without compromising posture/strategy?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Responding in good faith without claiming to represent all of wing chun.
Wing Chun is an entirely different system from Muay Thai or Western boxing.
In my wc the head is an integral partof the upper body structure and the spine and neck vertebrae
are balanced accrordingly in keeping with gravity.
Yes the chin is a major vuleranable point but so is the neck, the temple, the eyes, the heart etc etc.
Many wc folks dont understand the important details of the dynamics and geometry of the hand structure.
When the proper two hand structure is dynamically applied- with a properly trained wing chun person
is pretty well protected at the chin, the neck, the chest etc.

[YouKnowWho]

In Muay Thai the chin is down, shoulders shrugged up a bit. It helps hide/protect the jaw, since that is the best target for a knock out.

May be you should not allow your opponent's fists to be able to reach to your chin in the 1st place. With the "rhino guard", your chin can be far away from your opponent's reach. IMO, the chin up or chin down, shoulder up or shoulder down is not the issue. The issue is whether you want to fight in your own territory, or you want to fight in your opponent's territory instead.

When a rhino runs toward you with full speed, you will not be able to hit that rhino's chin and that's for sure.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoobpbgSrNk

[GlennR]

boxers keep shoulders up to protect from getting knocked out. Wing chun keeps shoulders down for various other benefits... Speed, relaxation, etc...
If you get knocked out... Is it worth it?

No, not really.
Lifting both shoulders in boxing is a bad habit, increases tension, reduces power speed and response time

Having said that, some guys (Mayweather - Hopkins - Toney for eg) do use variations of the "philly shell" which uses the lead (front) shoulder to deflect punches.
Heres a good breakdown from FMJ himself;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YqOJp9Wmayo

As a few of the other poster have said, its chin down that the really want

[Kellen Bassette]

When a rhino runs toward you with full speed, you will not be able to hit that rhino's chin and that's for sure.


Maybe not, but he still tucks it. :p

9277

[GlennR]

May be you should not allow your opponent's fists to be able to reach to your chin in the 1st place. With the "rhino guard", your chin can be far away from your opponent's reach. IMO, the chin up or chin down, shoulder up or shoulder down is not the issue. The issue is whether you want to fight in your own territory, or you want to fight in your opponent's territory instead.

When a rhino runs toward you with full speed, you will not be able to hit that rhino's chin and that's for sure.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoobpbgSrNk

And when the day finally comes that you fight a rhino let us know how you go

[HybridWarrior]

And when the day finally comes that you fight a rhino let us know how you go

hahaha ... :D


This 'rhino' strategy...gives me pause. It seems purely defensive; uses two hands against one; and appears to be "rhino'ing" only the upper gate area.

[sanjuro_ronin]

May be you should not allow your opponent's fists to be able to reach to your chin in the 1st place. With the "rhino guard", your chin can be far away from your opponent's reach. IMO, the chin up or chin down, shoulder up or shoulder down is not the issue. The issue is whether you want to fight in your own territory, or you want to fight in your opponent's territory instead.

When a rhino runs toward you with full speed, you will not be able to hit that rhino's chin and that's for sure.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoobpbgSrNk

Not a fan, gotta be honest with you.
Looks a bit over extended for my taste.
Not to mention overly defensive and being done at an impractical range.

[Sihing73]

Not a fan, gotta be honest with you.
Looks a bit over extended for my taste.
Not to mention overly defensive and being done at an impractical range.

Gotta agree.

Seems like a cheap rip off of a Silat entry.
Although, I have never seen a Silat entry employed quite like that.

[Wayfaring]

Not a fan, gotta be honest with you.
Looks a bit over extended for my taste.
Not to mention overly defensive and being done at an impractical range.

He's exploiting the biu sau angle. I mean it shows the angle works. But beyond that please hold your hands like that sparring with me. You're completely powerless to stop kicks or takedowns.

[Sihing73]

I think that sometimes people do not realize that some things are not meant to be applied in a static posture.
Take the "X" block. It can be very effective if one employs movement with the technique.
If you just stick your hands out and hold them there you will get hit.

[YouKnowWho]

Looks a bit over extended for my taste.
Not to mention overly defensive and being done at an impractical range.

If you run toward your opponent like a crazy person, you can still use it to punch at your opponent's face. But the "punching" is not the purpose for this. The "over extended" is the beauty of the strategy. You move your hands as close to your opponent's head as possible. The moment that your opponent tries to punch you, his hand will leave his guard and his head will be exposed for your head lock. If you move in at that moment, the striking game is over, the grappling game will start.

This strategy may sound like "conservative" from a striker point of view. But from a grappler point of view, it's very aggressive. Your opponent wants to punch your head, you want to lock his head. Both purposes may be similar. The difference is you always have the "rhino guard" to protect your head, but your opponent's punch will always expose his head.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n0GnSFmYsc

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you run toward your opponent like a crazy person, you can still use it to punch at your opponent's face. But the "punching" is not the purpose for this. The "over extended" is the beauty of the strategy. You move your hands as close to your opponent's head as possible. The moment that your opponent tries to punch you, his hand will leave his guard and his head will be exposed for your head lock. If you move in at that moment, the striking game is over, the grappling game will start.

This strategy may sound like "conservative" from a striker point of view. But from a grappler point of view, it's very aggressive. Your opponent wants to punch your head, you want to move in for head lock. Both purposes may be similar. The difference is you always have the "rhino guard" to protect your head, but your opponent's punch will always expose his head.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2n0GnSFmYsc

Ok...
The only problem I see with that is that a trained striker ( and by that I mean anyone that is a trained fighter) will NOT strike like that, will not just throw 1 shot, will react to the entry as opposed to just standing there and on top of all that, if that striker also has some grappling experience, they will react accordingly.

Maybe it is how it is being demo'd...

[YouKnowWho]

Ok...
The only problem I see with that is that a trained striker ( and by that I mean anyone that is a trained fighter) will NOT strike like that, will not just throw 1 shot, will react to the entry as opposed to just standing there and on top of all that, if that striker also has some grappling experience, they will react accordingly.

Maybe it is how it is being demo'd...

Let's talk a bit more "abstract" here. If you move both of your hands from the center of your chest (WC center line principle - protect your center from inside out) to both sides of your opponent's ears (basic WC SNT training), your arms moving path should intersect your opponent's arms to be outside of your arms. The "rhino guard" just reduce your hands moving path to the shortest distance (WC principle - straight line is the shortest distance). In stead of moving your hands from your chest, you move your hands far away from your chest and near by your opponent's head.

It doesn't matter how your opponent may punch at you, if you just move your arms along this path, you will have the

- maximum protect on your head,
- shortest distance to move your hands and reach your target, and
- better chance to intersect your opponent's punch.

When will you "separate" your arms depends on when you can detect your opponent's head is exposed. May be after the 1st punch, after the 2nd punch, or after the ...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Let's talk a bit more "abstract" here. If you move both of your hands from the center of your chest (WC center line principle - protect your center from inside out) to both sides of your opponent's ears (basic WC SNT training), your arms moving path should intersect your opponent's arms to be outside of your arms. The "rhino guard" just reduce your hands moving path to the shortest distance (WC principle - straight line is the shortest distance). In stead of moving your hands from your chest, you move your hands far away from your chest and near by your opponent's head.

It doesn't matter how your opponent may punch at you, if you just move your arms along this path, you will have the

- maximum protect on your head,
- shortest distance to move your hands and reach your target, and
- better chance to intersect your opponent's punch.

When will you "separate" your arms depends on when you can detect your opponent's head is exposed. May be after the 1st punch, after the 2nd punch, or after the ...

The "rhino guard" is nothing new, there are variations of it everywhere ( kali fence, beggars hand, etc) BUT they all have one thing in common that the rhino doesn't, or I should say that the rhino does something that they don't: Commit the hands to clasping each other.
You don't see the disadvantage or issue in that?
Honestly, one good fake and the guy is eating it and I don't just mean a punch either.

[-N-]

Commit the hands to clasping each other.
You don't see the disadvantage or issue in that?


This.

What is gained by grabbing the hands together?

Seems like it adds unnecessary delay.

[YouKnowWho]

This.

What is gained by grabbing the hands together?

Seems like it adds unnecessary delay.

I have tested it in

1. 1 big fist locked by fingers,
2. 1 palm cover 1 fist,
3. 2 connected fists,
4. 2 connected palms,
5. 2 separate fists,
6. 2 separate palms,

I still like the method 1 better. It gives me a very "strong" guard that even my opponent tries to use both arms to destroy it, I can still keep my guard together.

There are many strategies used in combat. Some people like to react to their opponent's action. I like to set up a goal (obtain a clinch ASAP). I then find a path that can lead me toward that goal with the least amount of risk taken.


You don't see the disadvantage or issue in that?
Honestly, one good fake and the guy is eating it and I don't just mean a punch either.
If my opponent throws kick, I won't drop my guard but to use my leg to deal with it. If my opponent's fake punch can expose his head, I'll go for his head. My advantage is my hands are close to my opponent's head than his fists to my head. If my opponent and I have the same speed, I should be able to reach to his head before his fist can reach to my head. Since my extended arms may give my opponent a feeling that even I use it to punch, my punch won't be powerful enough to hurt him, he may ignore my hands to be so close to his head. What he may not know is my goal is not to strike on his head but to pass around his head and wrap it. I don't need any punching power for that.

[-N-]

There are many strategies used in combat. Some people like to react to their opponent's action. I like to set up a goal (obtain a clinch ASAP). I then find a path that can lead me toward that goal with the least amount of risk taken.

Ok, got it.

If you priotize the strong shield and have no intention to react and change to the opponent, then grabbing hands together works best.

[Wayfaring]

I have tested it in

1. 1 big fist locked by fingers,
2. 1 palm cover 1 fist,
3. 2 connected fists,
4. 2 connected palms,
5. 2 separate fists,
6. 2 separate palms,

I still like the method 1 better. It gives me a very "strong" guard that even my opponent tries to use both arms to destroy it, I can still keep my guard together.

There are many strategies used in combat. Some people like to react to their opponent's action. I like to set up a goal (obtain a clinch ASAP). I then find a path that can lead me toward that goal with the least amount of risk taken.


It sounds like you are using a gimmick guard to get to a clinch. It should be effective if people try to punch their way into it. However, with the hands isolated like that any good wrestler will use that to your disadvantage. One example is just shoot in directly on the waist. You may be able to sprawl with hands clasped like that, but you won't have mobility off the sprawl to win the circle battle. Also, it makes it easier to arm drag or manipulate that whole unit with the arms clasped. And as previously mentioned, tough to react to feints.

As a gimmick, it can be workable but leaves major holes for an effective approach.




If my opponent throws kick, I won't drop my guard but to use my leg to deal with it. If my opponent's fake punch can expose his head, I'll go for his head. My advantage is my hands are close to my opponent's head than his fists to my head. If my opponent and I have the same speed, I should be able to reach to his head before his fist can reach to my head. Since my extended arms may give my opponent a feeling that even I use it to punch, my punch won't be powerful enough to hurt him, he may ignore my hands to be so close to his head. What he may not know is my goal is not to strike on his head but to pass around his head and wrap it. I don't need any punching power for that.

To effectively block leg kicks you are also going to need mobility and counter balance with your arms, which you won't have with them locked up together like that. I mean try a MT drill blocking inside and outside kicks with arms tied together. You can do it, but anyone good will take one look at that disadvantage you are piling on yourself and light you up like a Xmas tree.

[YouKnowWho]

with the hands isolated like that any good wrestler will use that to your disadvantage. One example is just shoot in directly on the waist. You may be able to sprawl with hands clasped like that, but you won't have mobility off the sprawl to win the circle battle. Also, it makes it easier to arm drag or manipulate that whole unit with the arms clasped. And as previously mentioned, tough to react to feints.
The rhino guard is used to guard your head (general YOU) against punches. This strategy is used by a "wrestler" who doesn't want to spend time to train his striking skill but he still want to test his "wrestling skill" against strikers. If his opponent is a wrestler, this strategy will have little value.

- If you are afraid of a wrestler, you are not a good wrestler yourself.
- If your opponent shoot in toward your waist, you don't need to sprawl. Since his head will be exposed and so close to your hands, you can shoot in toward his head at the same time.
- If your opponent can use single arm drag to move both of your arms, you may have serious body structure problem.

When your opponent's arms wrap around your waist while your arms wrap around his head, what will happen after that, it all depends on individual "skill/ability level". We can only discuss "strategy" here. We can't compare individual's "skill/ability level". IMO, the testing is very important here. If you can use your "rhino guard" to deflect 10,000 punches coming toward your head, you will know that your "rhino guard" may have some combat value.

[anerlich]

I had assumed the purpose of joining the hands in the rhino guard was to make the guard stronger and less likely to be knocked aside.

I've been taught similar concepts, though with important differences, by a 4th degree BJJ black belt with EXTENSIVE experience in kickboxing, Silat and other striking arts. IIRC the Gracie combatives include some very similar concepts.

He too, developed a strategy to allow a grappler to close with a puncher without minimum risk (which is not to say NO risk - there is no such option).

However, his guard does not extend out from the body like the rhino guard does. His two main guards are the "shell", where you basically have both hands on the hairline at the front of the head (open hand if no gloves, fists if using gloves), elbows down and with a tight structure, very similar to Rodney King's "crazy monkey" defence. This structure is very strong, and to my mind superior to the rhino guard as it gives no chance for the guy to knock your hands back into your own head, pull them down or attack them with grappling moves. Standing, it is easy to move the elbows slightly to block any head shot, and even some body shots. You basically just charge at the guy until you get both forearms on his chest and then are in clinch range with your head on the guy's chest. The guard easily then converts to over/underhooks, body locks, arm and neck ties, etc.

The structure works well for a closed guard on your back in a punching situation - pull him in with your legs, keeping the shell on to avoid punches, until his chest is on your forearms, from where you can get an overhook and neck tie, move to rubber guard, head/arm choke, etc. I wouldn't want to use any guard that took my hands away from my head if I was getting punched underneath on the ground.

It is even arguably the best of a number of bad options if you are mounted and being punched. Just weather the storm until you can buck him forward and hopefully grab an arm to bridge and roll.

The other option is a thing called the visor, where you wrap both arms around your head, a bit like as if they were folded, and you peek out the slit between the forearms. Same thing, run at the guy until you make contact with the arms and go into your clinching game.

Here's an example (I would call this the visor, rather than the shell): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mftSpRTuCJg

[YouKnowWho]

If you keep your hands away from your head, in order for your opponent to punch your head, his head will be so close to your hands. Also his hands will have longer distance to reach to your head. Here is a simple picture for it. B's arms are shorter than A's arms because A's arms are straight but B's arms is not. The blue dashed lines will be A's hands moving path. The moment that A can detect B's head is exposed, the moment that A's arms will move in. Since any attack comes from B will force B's head to be exposed, that's what A is waiting for. Since B's head punch will take longer path than A's head wrap, that will be A's advantage.

9280

[anerlich]

If you keep your hands away from your head, in order for your opponent to punch your head, his head will be so close to your hands. Also his hands will have longer distance to reach to your head. Here is a simple picture for it. B's arms are shorter than A's arms because A's arms are straight but B's arms is not. The blue dashed lines will be A's hands moving path. The moment that A can detect B's head is exposed, the moment that A's arms will move in. Since any attack comes from B will force B's head to be exposed, that's what A is waiting for. Since B's head punch will take longer path than A's head wrap, that will be A's advantage.

9280

But that's not what you actually do in the vid. In the vid, you block his punch up with your left forearm (one move) and then close (two moves). His head is exposed when he starts the punch, where a user of the shell can crash in using the shell and be right up against him in a single movement.

Wouldn't that guard be vulnerable to a "defanging the snake" strategy, where he just beats on your hands and forearms while staying out of range?

[YouKnowWho]

But that's not what you actually do in the vid. In the vid, you block his punch up with your left forearm (one move) and then close (two moves). His head is exposed when he starts the punch, where a user of the shell can crash in using the shell and be right up against him in a single movement.

Wouldn't that guard be vulnerable to a "defanging the snake" strategy, where he just beats on your hands and forearms while staying out of range?

I don't have clip for that yet but I'll make that clip when I have chance.

When a rhino charges in, he doesn't have to wait for his opponent's attack. He can attack any time that he wants to. If you apply this strategy to the extreme, you don't even have to wait for your opponent's opening. You can just open your opponent's guard on the way in. This is 100% aggressive approach which is very similar to the WC "chain punches" strategy. The difference is when you use "chain punches", you have to deliver punching power in every single punches of yours. When you move in with rhino guard, you don't need any power. this can make the rhino guard arms to move faster with maximum relaxation.

If your opponent tries to hurt your arms, you still just move your arms in through both sides of your opponent's head. If he moves back, you just keep trying. He can't move back forever.

[Vajramusti]

I don't have clip for that yet but I'll make that clip when I have chance.

When a rhino charges in, he doesn't have to wait for his opponent's attack. He can attack any time that he wants to. If you apply this strategy to the extreme, you don't even have to wait for your opponent's opening. You can just open your opponent's guard on the way in. This is 100% aggressive approach which is very similar to the WC "chain punches" strategy. The difference is when you use "chain punches", you have to deliver punching power in every single punches of yours. When you move in with rhino guard, you don't need any power. this can make the rhino guard arms to move faster with maximum relaxation.

If your opponent tries to hurt your arms, you still just move your arms in through both sides of your opponent's head. If he moves back, you just keep trying. He can't move back forever.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
In thecontext of John's video-
A good understanding and internalization of wing chun can allow to move in with closed man sao and wu sao hand position-if the timing is right-
allowing additional punches, chops or clinching imo without changing gears to non wing chun motions.

[Wayfaring]

The rhino guard is used to guard your head (general YOU) against punches. This strategy is used by a "wrestler" who doesn't want to spend time to train his striking skill but he still want to test his "wrestling skill" against strikers. If his opponent is a wrestler, this strategy will have little value.

So in a self defense scenario unless you probe your opponent and know he doesn't have wrestling skills, the rhino guard is ineffective?



- If you are afraid of a wrestler, you are not a good wrestler yourself.
- If your opponent shoot in toward your waist, you don't need to sprawl. Since his head will be exposed and so close to your hands, you can shoot in toward his head at the same time.
- If your opponent can use single arm drag to move both of your arms, you may have serious body structure problem.

First, what does this little adage have to do with the rhino guard? whether someone is afraid of a wrestler? So now rhino guard only works against non wrestlers who are not afraid of other wrestlers? Also the arm drag's purpose is not moving both of your arms, it's getting you to the waist. And last, I'm getting this mind picture of a dude sprawling on someone with both hands clasped together and face planting. It's an awesome picture.



When your opponent's arms wrap around your waist while your arms wrap around his head, what will happen after that, it all depends on individual "skill/ability level". We can only discuss "strategy" here. We can't compare individual's "skill/ability level". IMO, the testing is very important here. If you can use your "rhino guard" to deflect 10,000 punches coming toward your head, you will know that your "rhino guard" may have some combat value.

Wow, that last sentence sounds like a fortune cookie ;)

[Wayfaring]

However, his guard does not extend out from the body like the rhino guard does. His two main guards are the "shell", where you basically have both hands on the hairline at the front of the head (open hand if no gloves, fists if using gloves), elbows down and with a tight structure, very similar to Rodney King's "crazy monkey" defence. This structure is very strong, and to my mind superior to the rhino guard as it gives no chance for the guy to knock your hands back into your own head, pull them down or attack them with grappling moves. Standing, it is easy to move the elbows slightly to block any head shot, and even some body shots. You basically just charge at the guy until you get both forearms on his chest and then are in clinch range with your head on the guy's chest. The guard easily then converts to over/underhooks, body locks, arm and neck ties, etc.


Yes, absolutely. This is the solid approach here that doesn't give up mobility. MT shell.



The structure works well for a closed guard on your back in a punching situation - pull him in with your legs, keeping the shell on to avoid punches, until his chest is on your forearms, from where you can get an overhook and neck tie, move to rubber guard, head/arm choke, etc. I wouldn't want to use any guard that took my hands away from my head if I was getting punched underneath on the ground.

in my experience the MT shell from the above paragraph is not very effective from guard as you can still get punched in closed guard so you either need to wrap the neck to prevent posture, block a bicep hands out and insert knees (gracie combatives), sweep, or do rubber guard/high guard.



It is even arguably the best of a number of bad options if you are mounted and being punched. Just weather the storm until you can buck him forward and hopefully grab an arm to bridge and roll.

Agreed.



The other option is a thing called the visor, where you wrap both arms around your head, a bit like as if they were folded, and you peek out the slit between the forearms. Same thing, run at the guy until you make contact with the arms and go into your clinching game.

Here's an example (I would call this the visor, rather than the shell): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mftSpRTuCJg

I would call those guys the rhino guard.

[GlennR]

The other option is a thing called the visor, where you wrap both arms around your head, a bit like as if they were folded, and you peek out the slit between the forearms. Same thing, run at the guy until you make contact with the arms and go into your clinching game.

Here's an example (I would call this the visor, rather than the shell): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mftSpRTuCJg

Interesting.
You'd call that the cross arm defense in boxing. Ken Norton was the man most famous for using that, he arguably beat Ali three times with it...... what a fighter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D-sp8xbZv0

Also, heres a breakdown of it by a gent i subscribe to on youtube (good channel if you like boxing)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a03y_kd_yWk


So i guess, responding to Johns "rhino guard", there is a place for the unconventional but, personally, id like to see someone that actually uses it rather than on compliant students

[anerlich]

in my experience the MT shell from the above paragraph is not very effective from guard as you can still get punched in closed guard so you either need to wrap the neck to prevent posture, block a bicep hands out and insert knees (gracie combatives), sweep, or do rubber guard/high guard.

Yeah, I think that's right. The shell is only to stay protected until you can latch on with better controls and stop the ability for the other guy to punch.

In Joe Rogan's recent interview with Rickson Gracie and Eddie Bravo, Eddie talks about how he based the rubber guard on old school vale tudo defence from guard, viz. overhook and neck tie. My BJJ instructor's first line of guard defence nogi or MMA is overhook one arm, foot on the opposite hip, grab the free wrist with shin inside the arm. Lots of grappling options from there.


You'd call that the cross arm defense in boxing. Ken Norton was the man most famous for using that, he arguably beat Ali three times with it...... what a fighter

You're right. John Famechon, and particularly his trainer Ambrose Palmer, made good use of the cross defence as well.


I would call those guys the rhino guard.

They are big guys. The black belt in particular, Darko Zaric, is a good friend of mine and occasional instructor. Black Belt Open Australian Machado champ. They are both great technicians. The other guy, Tim, has a really nasty half guard game.

I see some parallels with John's Rhino Guard and Tony Blauer's Spear, if anyone remembers that. I know next to zero about Krav Maga but I've seen clips of KM guys using similar entries. In some ways all of this stuff appears to be variations on similar concepts.

[anerlich]

I don't have clip for that yet but I'll make that clip when I have chance.

When a rhino charges in, he doesn't have to wait for his opponent's attack. He can attack any time that he wants to. If you apply this strategy to the extreme, you don't even have to wait for your opponent's opening. You can just open your opponent's guard on the way in. This is 100% aggressive approach which is very similar to the WC "chain punches" strategy. The difference is when you use "chain punches", you have to deliver punching power in every single punches of yours. When you move in with rhino guard, you don't need any power. this can make the rhino guard arms to move faster with maximum relaxation.

If your opponent tries to hurt your arms, you still just move your arms in through both sides of your opponent's head. If he moves back, you just keep trying. He can't move back forever.

This is pretty much what a user of the shell or visor would do, and IMO the advantages are the same with the added benefit of extra head protection. Your hands might be closer in the rhino guard, but for an effective clinch the rest of your body and head have to be close to him as well. One of the safest places for your head to be is next to his, or even better on his back between his shoulder blades.

[Vajramusti]

This is pretty much what a user of the shell or visor would do, and IMO the advantages are the same with the added benefit of extra head protection. Your hands might be closer in the rhino guard, but for an effective clinch the rest of your body and head have to be close to him as well. One of the safest places for your head to be is next to his, or even better on his back between his shoulder blades.
------------------------------------------------------------------Shell-visor- not bad ideas at all---the rhino seems like a nice enough variation.
Not just Norton- Archie Moore also had his variation- but Marciano ploughed through it.
Tyson's original peekaboo also had a relaxed closed triangle. After D'Amato died, Tyson's peekaboo
opened up and Buster Douglas could and did get through both with jab and uppercut.