Technique vs. Courage

[RenDaHai]

Hey Team,

I was reading about the Spartans in one of Plutarchs moral essays and came across an interesting quote;

They appointed no masters to instruct their boys in wrestling, that they might contend not in sleights of art and little tricks, but in strength and courage

I find this quite a thought provoking idea from arguably the greatest warriors of the ancient world. Rather than project my opinions on it, what do you think of this method of 'teaching'? Would you employ it for your sons?

[Kellen Bassette]

Strength and courage trump technique. They are a prerequisite for applying technique.

I like the idea of sparring/wrestling from day one. I don't like the idea of never learning technique, although I am not sure if that is what is being implied.
I would think these boys would pick up/be taught technique as they go, improve/develop inside the environment, instead of training for years outside the environment before ever being tried.

[-N-]

They appointed no masters to instruct their boys in wrestling, that they might contend not in sleights of art and little tricks, but in strength and courage


Technique and mastery are more than just little tricks.

And there is technique in how to use strength.

For children, starting with strength and courage can give them a better understanding for technique later on. Also good to maximize their strength development early.

[bawang]

when spartans were gonna get married they had to shave the womans head and make her look like a teenage boy.

[Kellen Bassette]

when spartans were gonna get married they had to shave the womans head and make her look like a teenage boy.

You just got to ruin everything, don't you? :p

[RenDaHai]

I like the idea of sparring/wrestling from day one. I don't like the idea of never learning technique, although I am not sure if that is what is being implied.

I agree, I don't think it means they never trained technique, but when they begin they learn that courage is more important.

In my experience there is a huge difference from fighting in reality to fighting in sport or training. The difference however is nothing to do with rules or technique or style, but to do with incentive and emotion and purpose.

You never get a second chance at a first impression. I think the Spartans want the boys to approach combat with courage and purpose always. If they had started with technical training then when the boys sparred they would do so as if it were a game to be won, thinking minutely about technique and strategy, gaining little experience of fear and courage. But when they fight for real, when their life is genuinely in danger, they cannot actually think so technically. By starting them off engaging their instinct, when they grow up and fight for real they will approach combat in a stronger frame of mind. Just my opinions.

[Kellen Bassette]

You never get a second chance at a first impression. I think the Spartans want the boys to approach combat with courage and purpose always. If they had started with technical training then when the boys sparred they would do so as if it were a game to be won, thinking minutely about technique and strategy, gaining little experience of fear and courage. But when they fight for real, when their life is genuinely in danger, they cannot actually think so technically. By starting them off engaging their instinct, when they grow up and fight for real they will approach combat in a stronger frame of mind. Just my opinions.

I like this line of thinking...very interesting.

[mickey]

Greetings,

I believe there is a hormonal and mental benefit to the training of strength and courage in that it results in a heightened arousal that may allow for accelerated uptake and better retention of information.


mickey

[-N-]

They appointed no masters to instruct their boys in wrestling, that they might contend not in sleights of art and little tricks, but in strength and courage

I find this quite a thought provoking idea from arguably the greatest warriors of the ancient world. Rather than project my opinions on it, what do you think of this method of 'teaching'? Would you employ it for your sons?


TCMA puts skill in third place behind strength and guts. Guts, strength, skill.


I've posted on this related to how I train children, including(especially) my sons and nephews.

One thing about kids, is that they are still growing and they don't have the physical coordination to do some things.

I give them methods suitable to their level of physical development, and I train their spirit/courage/guts/aggression.

There are lots of students that have strength and technique, but lack the guts to apply them under pressure.


[...]
Then "3 second death match" for explosive aggression to end the fight quickly and cleanly.

In the "kill or be killed" context, 10-30 seconds can be too long. Originally, I gave students only 5 seconds to take out the other guy, and even that was too long and allowed for hesitation. 3 seconds worked out about right.

The result from combination of continuous sparring and also 3 second time limit worked pretty well, and it showed when they went to spar people outside of our group.



This training develops the aggressive intent for instantaneous all out attack.

The ideal would be to end the fight. That may not be possible, but you still have advantage over someone that did not train this.

Also, you can get in a lot more than just one punch in 3 seconds.

One of my students went to Air Force Academy. He was the smallest cadet and got put up against the biggest guy for pugil stick matches. He took him out in less than 3 seconds.

Another student liked to go to open mat sparring. He went up against blackbelts, boxers, and MMA guys, some that outweighed him by up to 80lbs. He had them consistently on the run from his attacks.

When they were young, I trained them to spar against me using full force. This was to develop their functional strength on the techniques they learned.

[-N-]

When they were young, I trained them to spar against me using full force. This was to develop their functional strength on the techniques they learned.

In fact, I used to laugh and taunt them that their attacks were weak and useless.

I told them that if they could hit me hard enough to make me stop laughing and say, "OW!" that they could pick what to do for the rest of the class that day.

That really motivated them and they would go home to their parents and tell them how close they were to getting me to say "OW!" and that they "knew" they could get me the next time.

[RenDaHai]

I like it N, thanks.

3 second Death match, I'm going to try that one. No time to get lost in thinking, just do it!

[pazman]

Before the rise of Macedon, Greek warfare consisted of shield wall formations of hoplites pushing against each other. Battles were decisive, short (under an hour), and full of customs and stipulations. Battles were won by strength, determination, and willingness to engage the enemy. Given this context, it's clear why Sparta had a reputation.

In the martial arts, reliance on teaching technique is not good, especially in the beginning. I assisted with a junior high school judo club, the first few weeks of the school year were spent learning how to struggle and figure out things on your own (in addition to ukemi and basic exercises). Students were paired, one on his back and the other in a mount position. The students on the bottom would attempt to escape from the mount. We'd do this in 2 minute rounds, with students changing positions and changes partners frequently. If you have no technique, it is very difficult to do at first, but over time you learn to struggle and figure out a way. It strengths both the body and the heart. After a few days of this, many students start to figure out ways to escape...they can share their experiences with the other students. After a week or two of this, we would teach them standard escapes and counters.

Learning how to struggle and focus your will is the foundation of good martial arts, which is why I usually direct people to study a "modern" martial art first before they learn a traditional one.

[mickey]

In fact, I used to laugh and taunt them that their attacks were weak and useless.

-N-,

I heard through the grapevine that your Sifu did this. And I am on the East Coast!!!


mickey

[-N-]

In fact, I used to laugh and taunt them that their attacks were weak and useless.

-N-,

I heard through the grapevine that your Sifu did this. And I am on the East Coast!!!


mickey

LOL. Didn't even think about that. Too funny.

[-N-]

Learning how to struggle and focus your will is the foundation of good martial arts [...]

After all is said and done, that is what I want my students to have and apply to everything. Not just to kungfu.

[GeneChing]

....I'm not sure who I'd say had technique though - maybe the wizard himself....maybe Toto.


That is all. Happy Friday everyone!

[SPJ]

Hey Team,

I was reading about the Spartans in one of Plutarchs moral essays and came across an interesting quote;

They appointed no masters to instruct their boys in wrestling, that they might contend not in sleights of art and little tricks, but in strength and courage

I find this quite a thought provoking idea from arguably the greatest warriors of the ancient world. Rather than project my opinions on it, what do you think of this method of 'teaching'? Would you employ it for your sons?

Execute the techniques at right timing and with proper strength every time.

Refine them over time to perfection.

That is kung and fu.

:)

[bawang]

teaching technique first is good for milking your students because it makes it 10 times longer to learn.

[SoCo KungFu]

Greetings,

I believe there is a hormonal and mental benefit to the training of strength and courage in that it results in a heightened arousal that may allow for accelerated uptake and better retention of information.


mickey

There is some very (heavy emphasis on very) limited information on glucocorticoid production and memory. To summarize, memory formation may be heightened when there is a presence of elevated cortisol in the system. However, memory recall is inhibited by the same. Further, it all seems to be complicated by a trend that for proper recall of the memory, the situation needs to approximate the conditions of its formation. You can see how this would complicate any matter trying to verify this.

[-N-]

There is some very (heavy emphasis on very) limited information on glucocorticoid production and memory. To summarize, memory formation may be heightened when there is a presence of elevated cortisol in the system. However, memory recall is inhibited by the same. Further, it all seems to be complicated by a trend that for proper recall of the memory, the situation needs to approximate the conditions of its formation. You can see how this would complicate any matter trying to verify this.

This explains the old school approach where the Sifu beats and yells at the student.

[SoCo KungFu]

This explains the old school approach where the Sifu beats and yells at the student.

I think that just might be a cultural thing. That said, cultural evolution can trend with biology. The way this plays out is pretty intuitive. The more you pressure test yourself, the better you get. This just puts a potential mechanism to it, that's all. Spar often. Compete if you can. The more experience and the less stressed you are in that environment over time, the better your recall.

[PalmStriker]

:) Better technique first. They've either had or know they will get their ass kicked good attempting to brawl against opposition. Technique was a game changer for me when I started applying it as early as grade school, without the tools you risk everything, especially against the sociopaths.

[-N-]

I think that just might be a cultural thing. That said, cultural evolution can trend with biology.

Absolutely. Cultural inheritance alongside of genetic. Chinese culture is all about enduring extreme harshness to become better.


The more experience and the less stressed you are in that environment over time, the better your recall.


3 second Death match, I'm going to try that one. No time to get lost in thinking, just do it!

In addition to allowing no time to think, I structured the exercise to create continuous mental and physical stress, and didn't give them time to fixate on having won or lost. As soon as 3 seconds were up, they immediately started another 3 second countdown. This continued until they were too tired to move.

9279

We used the circles at the center of the basketball court.

Each person had to start with one foot inside the small circle when I called "Ready!"

As soon as I started counting "1-2-3!", they had to attack to take out the other guy with a clean combo before I finished counting.

Kicks, punches, sweeps, takedowns, and chokes allowed. And only combinations were allowed. Single shots mean you failed.

Running, stepping, or getting knocked out of the big circle meant you fell into "burning lava" or "sharpened spikes" and died.

If neither one landed a solid clean combo, both lost.

If someone lost by a particularly poor response or "falling on the spikes" they were told, "FAIL!!! Start again!"

If it was a draw, they were told, "LOSE! LOSE! Start again!"

If someone got a clean win, they were told, "WINNER!!! Start again!"

So it would go nonstop like this:

"Ready, 1-2-3!"

*clean win*

"Andrew winner! Start again!"

"Ready, 1-2-3!"

*knocked out of the circle*

"Andrew, FAIL!!! Start again!"

"Ready, 1-2-3!"

*no score*

"LOSE! LOSE! Start again!"

No time to dwell on the win or having gotten nailed. Just continuous focus to explode in and take out the other guy.

After they were too tired to continue, I would debrief them on their mistakes and successful attacks.

[mickey]

Greetings,

-N-,

With that level of heightened arousal, is there a carry over into regular sparring/other training or, is that level of explosiveness/aggression/technical expression diminished until the next time that drill is used?


mickey

[-N-]

Greetings,

-N-,

With that level of heightened arousal, is there a carry over into regular sparring/other training or, is that level of explosiveness/aggression/technical expression diminished until the next time that drill is used?


mickey

Absolutely carried over. That was the whole point for coming up with that exercise.

That become their normal context for engaging their opponent.

Praying Mantis characteristic is explosive, aggressive, with blitz combinations.

I wanted to establish that single-minded determination in them to continue until they took out the other guy regardless of whether they got hit or they hit the other person.

The first time one of the students went to spar outsiders, they asked him to lighten up on the attacks. He didn't understand what that meant and had to ask me how to do that. He was still a kid, and the others were adults including blackbelts.

When he sparred with me, I always had him go all out speed and power. It wasn't a problem for me because I could counter. I'd let him get close to hitting me, but would avoid or neutralize the attack and get him first. Being that close to getting me made him even more determined to win. For kids, it's like playing a video game on a super hard level, and they just keep trying because they almost got it.

Another student came back from Basic Cadet Training and told me that kung fu class was harder than Basic.

There was a picture of him and the other cadets crawling on their bellies in the mud under barbed wire. He was the only one in the pic smiling, and looked like he was having a great time.

[mickey]

Hi -N-,

I was expecting that response. Thank you for sharing that.

mickey

[Jimbo]

-N-, those are some excellent practices.

Not the same, but back in my Kenpo days, an exercise my teacher incorporated (not every day) was 2-on-1 and 3-on-1 intense sparring. It was pretty much the 2 or 3 would try their best to beat down the 1. Usually he would unexpectedly spring it at the end of sparring, when people were tired. It was also incorporated at the end of tests, where the 1 was already dead tired and the 2 and 3 were fresh.

It wasn't about technique. By then, you only had instinct, actions/reactions, constant movement, and the will to fight. Simply covering up or running were not acceptable. These experiences and the mindset they developed actually saved my life several years later, when 3 men attempted to abduct me into a large black car during my first week living in Taiwan. In fact, the actual incident was much easier than the training. And it wasn't for lack of the men trying. I also remember more skills coming out, but in all honesty I couldn't recall specific ones, because things happened very fast. I would be suspicious of anyone who can recount, blow-by-blow, any real fight against multiple attackers.

[David Jamieson]

Courage may be taught as a child is taught to speak. ~Euripides

What do you suppose he meant by this?

[RenDaHai]

Courage may be taught as a child is taught to speak. ~Euripides



Well, children learn to speak by imitating, having lots of people around them who are speaking and then they burble along in the same rhythm.

I suppose he means people can learn courage by being surrounded by it and given the opportunity to participate in it. So we must ourselves be paradigms of courageous behaviour and offer the uninitiated opportunities to be courageous instead of coddling them and being overprotective and denying them responsibilities.

The opposite then would be teaching them to be weak and cowardly by creating a society in which seemingly no one is accountable for anything, in which people are taught to be mentally crushed and seek compensation when they are merely verbally abused, a society in which rights are provided without prerequisite responsibilities and cannot be lost, where people are not ashamed to take something for nothing, where everyone, everyone is afraid to say what they actually think and believe mistakenly that virtue means being as soft and accepting as possible all the time.

Might have gone a bit off point there.

[David Jamieson]

"I suppose he means people can learn courage by being surrounded by it and given the opportunity to participate in it."


Yes, that is what is meant. Essentially, exposure.
If we do not expose ourselves to opportunity to become courageous, then it is unlikely we ever shall be.
If we spend our time in training and our experience resides in our head only, we castrate ourselves.


Get out in the world and see if you are courageous. Be in a club that tests your mettle.
Avoid waxing philosophical when you could be working. :)