Common Problems in 2 Man Forms

[-N-]

Good examples here.


http://youtu.be/J0mUVY9fLlw

[sanjuro_ronin]

2 man forms were originally done to develop counters and counter to counters BUT they were limited, typically, to one of 2 maybe 3 moves because practicality was crucial.
When performance took over it became, well, a performance.
Some of the old koryu systems like the Yagyu Shinkage ryu and the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu use 2 man forms as a huge part of their training and they are a long sequence of moves ( to build stamina) BUT the moves are "broken up" as mini-sequences and they tend to be very practical ( for their intended purpose).

[mickey]

Greetings,

I remember seeing a demo that featured a weapons contact done with intent. After the first section, the Sifu noticed that they weren't going light for the demo and said, "If you want to kill each other, then kill each other!", adding to the drama. The participants made through it to the end with no injuries and one broken weapon. The silence of the audience suggested that this was not what they were used to seeing. I knew both guys and that was how they trained.

mickey

[-N-]

Greetings,

I remember seeing a demo that featured a weapons contact done with intent. After the first section, the Sifu noticed that they weren't going light for the demo and said, "If you want to kill each other, then kill each other!", adding to the drama. The participants made through it to the end with no injuries and one broken weapon. The silence of the audience suggested that this was not what they were used to seeing. I knew both guys and that was how they trained.

mickey

I was told a story about one of my seniors. He was learning 3 section staff against spear. My teacher was his partner for the form while teaching him at the same time.

The senior student got part way through the routine, and finally asked not to continue because he was concerned about getting seriously injured.

[mickey]

Greetings -N-,

That was too funny. What you shared showed how much times has changed. I remember how sadistic and hardened people used to be in the USA. When I was in college, I gave a presentation on the level of neglect found in mental institutions. I made reference to how a body had been found in an apartment and that th body had stiffened to the point where they had to break the body to put it in the body bag. I was expecting major laughs and giggles. All I got was a loud chorus of "ULLLLL"

Barehand contacts, when properly done, really works toward strengthening the body in a way that weights do not.

mickey

[bawang]

a proper 2 man form


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRAZOpMOyVU

[mickey]

Greetings -N-

I would call what you posted a precursor to the more common 2 man forms we see, often called line drills: the difference is that there is so much more conveyed in each line, to call them drills would be insulting.

I really enjoy the squatting legwork. It gives me that impression that either it was in preparation for the wearing of battle armor or that it is supposed to be practiced with a weighted vest (or the armor itself) so that the practitioner would be combat fit for the real thing. Can you imagine just 10 years of training like that? Legendary strength, Brother!

mickey

[-N-]

a proper 2 man form

Nice weapon drills.

I've had students wear mma type gloves for practicing simultaneous hand attacks in the disarm motions.

Body of the weapon does an expulsion to disarm and attacks the hands on the way in. Point of the weapon attacks the opponent's face/body.

Our daggers vs. spear and our broadsword vs. spear both have some nice moves where the person grapples the spear, gets inside his range, and cuts the guy's fingers on the way in to cutting the body.

[-N-]

I remember seeing a demo that featured a weapons contact done with intent. After the first section, the Sifu noticed that they weren't going light for the demo and said, "If you want to kill each other, then kill each other!", adding to the drama.

Reminds me of one time after learning my first two person form.

My teacher looked at us and said, "Like mad dogs fighting." He didn't mean it in a good way, and he turned around and walked away with a disgusted look on his face.

We were fast and aggressive, but tense and with no skill. Somehow we thought we were doing good.

[-N-]

I would call what you posted a precursor to the more common 2 man forms we see, often called line drills: the difference is that there is so much more conveyed in each line, to call them drills would be insulting.

Oops, I did call them drills. No insult intended. Definately a lot of skills there.

I have no problem with drills. If our teacher taught us a form, he had us drill the short sequences from the form until we could use them. That was the point of having the form. Similar to what Sanjuro_ronin said.

From Praying Mantis 14 Roads, how many can actually do even just the kick and footwork correctly in a fight?

[bawang]

Greetings -N-

I would call what you posted a precursor to the more common 2 man forms we see, often called line drills: the difference is that there is so much more conveyed in each line, to call them drills would be insulting.



this is not a "precursor". this is what a real 2 man form looks like.

[Kellen Bassette]

this is not a "precursor". this is what a real 2 man form looks like.

I notice you always show these style weapons forms when the talk turns to two man forms. Is there any traditional empty hand two man forms you consider the "realz"?

[David Jamieson]

choreographed sets of movements that give an idea of the style and it's workings.

It's a bit much to put anything more onto it I think.

Co-ordination is instilled.

[bawang]

I notice you always show these style weapons forms when the talk turns to two man forms. Is there any traditional empty hand two man forms you consider the "realz"?

no they were created for entertainment

[pazman]

I really enjoy the squatting legwork. It gives me that impression that either it was in preparation for the wearing of battle armor or that it is supposed to be practiced with a weighted vest (or the armor itself) so that the practitioner would be combat fit for the real thing. Can you imagine just 10 years of training like that? Legendary strength, Brother!

mickey

To stand or to squat depends on the position of the spearman in the formation, or the action of the formation itself.

9293

[pazman]

The same issue arises in boxing/kickboxing. I once visited a gym that insisted beginners learn sequences of mitt combos that went up to 20 counts. These are great for stamina but not much else.

Two person forms as presented in CMA (unless its the sort of quality drill work that bawang presented) are a waste of time. If you have a partner around, you can do partner drills, short sequences of counters, sparring, etc.

[boxerbilly]

In boxing they have a similar drill. Jab- catch is but one. There are probably hundreds of variations. Working attacking and countering, etc. All to train you to respond ideally without thought. Same as I suspect 2 man drills on other arts . We did 1 and 3 step in TKD. In Kempo it was all really 2 man drills . Only free flowed during sparring.

Some things I was exposed to were likely to never going to happen but it was all fun and made you think about possibilities.

[SteveLau]

Two person forms as presented in CMA (unless its the sort of quality drill work that bawang presented) are a waste of time. If you have a partner around, you can do partner drills, short sequences of counters, sparring, etc.


Yep, I agree. And I do not mind posting it again. Two Man Form is unnecessary. We should train sparring skill with life partner using 2 to 3 moves combo. These are moves we select moves from solo hand set. But not doing a whole routine with 100 moves in it.



Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[Wuxia007]

Seems someone on youtube decided to respond to the video. lol


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A---SeoJBDI

[David Jamieson]

9293

These aren't spearmen, they are pikemen.
these fellas were used to keep cavalry from getting at the archers mostly. :)

[bawang]

9293

These aren't spearmen, they are pikemen.
these fellas were used to keep cavalry from getting at the archers mostly. :)

90% of real chinese spear is pike

[pazman]

9293

These aren't spearmen, they are pikemen.
these fellas were used to keep cavalry from getting at the archers mostly. :)

What those pikemen are holding are closer to Chinese spears than what 98% of CMA schools use when they "train" spears.

My original point stands.

[pazman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-ZHHKU1DPc

There are no subtitles, but none are needed to enjoy all the different kinds of practice in traditional weapons practice shown in this video. I'll have more to discuss about this video but it is my bedtime. ;)

[SPJ]

Many moves are end moves.

In order to make them continue to flow, we have to modify them.

Over time, it may become bad habits.

It is always better to drill a few moves rather than many and many moves in one big routine.

:eek:

[pazman]

So, in the video I posted before, you'll notice the different kinds of practices: solo line drills, partner line drills, live sparring, formal 2 person kata, and a long 2 person form. In most CMA schools, the partner line drills, formal 2 person techniques, and the sparring are all absent. The 2 person forms in TCMA are almost always performed with an amazing lack of precision, power, or even the faintest sense of distance. This video is labeled as "Advanced" on youtube:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_xOH71Jvtc

A few years ago I took a set of eight techniques from Yinshougun, turned them into a set of formal 2 person techniques, developed some associated drills, and defined a sparring rule set. I chose Yinshougun because several of my sanda classmates also knew the set. My sanda coaches was impressed, but the traditional wushu guys at the sports school were not. It really says a lot about CMA when the "modern" guys are actually more traditional than the "traditional" guys.

[SPJ]

2 man forms can be taken apart.

We practice partner A. We then practice partner B.

After a while, we may have a partner to practice either as A or B.

In shuai jiao, you practice only a few moves and end with a throw or being thrown.

The long forms are not needed except for show and tell.

:)

[SteveLau]

2 man forms can be taken apart.

The long forms are not needed except for show and tell.

:)


Now that I agree to.





Regards,

KC
Hong Kong

[-N-]

Kendo lightsabers :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vItyS0Z81w

[Brat]

Xingyi's Ahn she n Pao form is a two man form and the only two man sparring form in the style consisting of five moves in repetition between partners. I must say that until I practiced it I had no real grasp of how to effectively fight my teacher and the combination of attacking and continuous footwork were brought together. It is really a genius form in that it really "programs" you to move, strike, block, and evade. After practicing it at full speed for a time I was able to more effectively free spar (which was basically non sequenced execution of the form) with him and also with other people not in my style. When I first met my teacher and sparred with him he made a mockery of my efforts to engage him. After much practice in the two man form it became much easier but still required practice in free sparring to fully realize. I don't think without the 2 man form I would have ever grasped it though.