the most secret skill in kung fu

[bawang]

weight lifting.

a good traditional weightlifting protocol is the most secretive part of traditional kung fu. the easiest way to control scam and abuse your students is to keep them physically weak. numerous "internal" teachers have obviously muscular physiques that can come only from years of "external" heavy weight lifting.

lifting weights goes back to the warring states period in 1000 BC. lifting weights is one of the gentlemanly skills of confucianism.

out of 360 heroes in water margin only 1 hero was not muscular. majority of heroes were described as "muscular" and few heroes described as "freakishly muscular".

traditional weight lifting is very detailed and refined but the one ace in the deck kung fu teachers keep to control their students. if you do not lift weights, you will never achieve anything in kung fu.

[boxerbilly]

Okay, Bawang. Whats your best lifts?

I'll list mine. Nothing to write home about. Not winning any medals. Not making the mags.

I never had great 1 rep strength. But I had fairly good weight amounts for higher reps.

So , Best bench was 205 3 times. Once by myself the last 2 with assistance. So once!

But my best for me was

Bench- 185 for 20 reps. I did up to 6 sets and the reps would drop on each set. I may have been able to go a bit higher first set but that's what I did.

Squat. 175 for 20 ass to grass. Similar as above.

Half squat, 350 for 20 never did more than 3 sets if I went that high in weight. Again each set reps went down a few.

Pull downs, 150 for 20 and as above.

Presses 120 for 20 and as above

Curls 90 or 100 (I cant recall) for 20 and as above.

I cant recall any of the other stuff a played with. Nothing great I am sure. I sometimes used the Universal for different moves but the above was a mainstay.

Ab work, I never really counted.

Most push ups chest to floor high 70's I cant recall the exact amount.

Most push ups done in a work oput, in sets. Total was around 300. 20-30 rep range. 10 or a little more sets.

Pullups. 21 but I weighed 140ish pounds so..

My body weight has bounced between 135 to almost 200 ( 197-198). I currently weigh around 160-165. If I get above 185 I tend to get to fat. But I can bulk to that in 2 months. DONT DO IT. You lose your gracefulness! Actually at my current weight I could hit 185 in a month I'd bet.

So, I trained that top secret kung fu method and that's the best I ever did.

I can not do the amounts listed nor the reps at present. In fact I have not touched any real amount of weight since I got hurt.

Anyone else care to share?

edit. In the above listed amounts. I weighed no more than 150lbs. That's when I was kind of serious with the weights. I actually gain size better with bodyweight stuff. Just the basic moves. Nothing fancy No leverage moves which can rip your attachments apart so be careful with that stuff. The biggest thing is EAT and SLEEP !

[curenado]

As long as hard body does not become rigid body and complete exercise balances with the muscles most affected by the weights.
I do agree that whatever it is today, it was about endurance to exceed and forms only part of any day.
The years I had the anvil works or forest life were the only times I had sufficient weight resistence muscle exercise in my regular diet.

[boxerbilly]

Anvil Works- Were you a blacksmith? I don't mean that on anyway as a slight. I think that stuff is pretty cool. Not many can do it anymore. I suspect most in that if they can't sell the art would have to sideline as horse ferriers.

Really, weights are great but not the end all to be all. They don't equate to increased striking power that good. They can make you faster (which can make you hit harder) or they can make you feel like a piece of lead. Heavy feet. I think grappling wise way important. That's were strength gets scary to me. Translates well there since you have something to push against. And it improves your ability to take punishment to a degree but not that good in my opinion. Getting hit sucks even if you got strength and muscle. Probably the best thing they do is make you feel strong which improves your confidence. All that said, sure I would love a 400lb bench. But it is probably not in my cards not matter what I do.

[boxerbilly]

90 people online. 17 in this forum and I guess no one ever touched a weight?

I thought it was a good thread Bawang but what do I know? I suspect people don't like writing about not being very good at it. I wasn't. Anyway, as everyone can see. I certainly was not very strong. I could exert the strength I did have more times than average is all. Call it endurance I guess. But not really sure. Just the muscle fiber make up I was given through genetics.

[curenado]

I am not a big guy. It seemed freaky how strong my arms were because I developed even, did not bulk out.

Yes, farm kid. Can build anything and when I got accepted in '77 by Don Miller, he was already making weapons, though I think these days he does mostly knives.
http://www.northcoastknives.com/northcoast_knives_custom.htm

But creature is right about resistance muscle exercise and training, whether you have fancy ones or 5 gallon buckets.

[GeneChing]

90 people online. 17 in this forum and I guess no one ever touched a weight?
You came to this assumption because only 3 members posted on this thread since 11 this morning? What if we apply that same logic to our two-year old Chinese-toilets (http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?65867-Chinese-toilets) thread. No one replied to that one for a whole day. "96 people online. 2 in this forum and I guess no one ever touched a toilet?" :rolleyes:

[boxerbilly]

Gene, I never said I was a mental giant, lol. Impatient, most certainly.

Curenado , Im not a big guy. Even at almost 200 , yeah I wore x lg shirts for awhile but I was not really big or huge in my opinion. Biggest my arms ever got were a bit more than 14 3/4 for the right and about that for the left. Not big by anyone's standards.

And custom knives. Way cool.

And yes, I can imagine the kind of strength one may develop working with steel and swinging hammers all day. Your grip may be dangerous. Like that Dennis Rogers rolling pans. That stuff is frightening. Say you are BJJ god and take old Dennis down and he grabs **** near anywhere. Its a hold and it may rip your muscle from their attachments. He could possible snap the handles of a pair of pliers with his grip. YIKES!

Again, I was never real strong. Guys bending steel is more impressive to watch than a 250 pound guy putting up 500lbs.

[pazman]

A basic, sound weightlifting routine is one of the healthiest habits a person can pick up, but always seems the be the last thing a typical TCMA person wants to do.

Weightlifting, if done over the full range of motion, will actually increase flexibility.

A basic strength program improves not only striking power, but nearly any physical aspect of your life.

Most of what I know about weightlifting comes either from school courses or when I trained sanda at Wuhan Sports University. I would love to know more about traditional weightlifting. I asked several traditional teachers about this and they said though modern programs are sufficient, traditionally lifting stone locks like a deadlift offered the most benefit. And by stone locks I don't mean throwing them like you see at festivals, but lifting the very large ones off the ground. This was confirmed to me by a taiji group I met once. Typically, they met in the park to train but came to the gym to train (mostly deadlifts) twice a week.

If you go to a school which doesn't at least offer advice on weightlifting, you may want to consider another school.

[boxerbilly]

I never really deadlifted. I think for 3 months is all. Repping out with probably 200lbs on the bar. Its all the weight I had in my garage and I did not belong to the Y or a gym so that's what I did until I got back in one. It was mostly on 2 feet lifts. I had bent the supports on the crappy bench I had so that move was out.

[Brat]

I dunno. My xingyi teacher was not a muscular man but I could only hope to hit a fraction of as hard as he could. If you look back at lots of the old school boxers (pre Muhammed Ali) most of them weren't physically impressive by today's standards but I doubt that anyone would question the striking power of someone like Fitzimmons or Jim Corbet. I was a bodybuilder in HS but I can hit much harder today than I could back then.

[boxerbilly]

I dunno. My xingyi teacher was not a muscular man but I could only hope to hit a fraction of as hard as he could. If you look back at lots of the old school boxers (pre Muhammed Ali) most of them weren't physically impressive by today's standards but I doubt that anyone would question the striking power of someone like Fitzimmons or Jim Corbet. I was a bodybuilder in HS but I can hit much harder today than I could back then.

I agree. Just does not work like a lot of people think. Here is a clip of Joe Frazier lifting. I should say doing his best to lift. Its sad. But, I don't know many guys that could have hit as hard as he can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUTxgTEdZTA

Your going old school man. Fitzi was a blacksmith. That's were he got his power. Corbet. I think he did that light dumbbell Sandow system not heavy weights. Jack Johnson was another guy used those 2-3 pound dumbbells Sandow style. That's were you tense them while lifting for those that may not know. In some ways, similar to your tension sets in your particular systems. Probably don't even need the weights when doing that stuff?

I think Ali could bench like 185 over 100 times when he was 16 or something.

[Jimbo]

My dad grew up on a farm (the youngest of 8 children), achieved dan ranking in judo, and later worked on a tuna fishing boat. Well into middle age, he looked like he weight trained but never did. Yet he always had surprising, freaky 'farmer's strength' until his health eventually declined; even then, he still had old man strength that belied his appearance. His brothers had that same type of strength.

If some TMA people think weight training is incompatible with MA training, I'm sure that in the past, many practitioners of many systems worked hard labor every day, like farming, construction, etc., and many may not have needed specific weight training routines if they were constantly lifting, moving and tossing heavy objects for a living. Their livelihoods were providing them with built-in Gong. Yet many also incorporated specialized ST methods. People who do hard labor every day have highly functional strength that would surprise many non-laborers, including many athletes.

The mistake comes when modern, mostly sedentary people think they don't need to incorporate any strength training routines, either.

[mickey]

Greetings,


What Jimbo mentioned with regard to activity in one's lifestyle was something that Dan Miller mentioned in his "Pa Kua Chang journal". It is still relevant now as it was then: meaning if you are not really active, you will have to get active--supplement your training to enhance your strength levels.

mickey

[Brat]

Interestingly strong men in times past (turn of the century) the kind that you found in circuses and carnivals actively practiced deep breathing exercises in addition to any heavy lifting they did. Most considered the deep breathing exercises of equal or even greater importance to any isotonic exercises they had. Theodore Roosevelt reputedly brought himself out of childhood asthma with a regular regimen of strength training and deep breathing exercises. He was also known to be a pretty hard hitting boxer.

[Brat]

My dad grew up on a farm (the youngest of 8 children), achieved dan ranking in judo, and later worked on a tuna fishing boat. Well into middle age, he looked like he weight trained but never did. Yet he always had surprising, freaky 'farmer's strength' until his health eventually declined; even then, he still had old man strength that belied his appearance. His brothers had that same type of strength.

If some TMA people think weight training is incompatible with MA training, I'm sure that in the past, many practitioners of many systems worked hard labor every day, like farming, construction, etc., and many may not have needed specific weight training routines if they were constantly lifting, moving and tossing heavy objects for a living. Their livelihoods were providing them with built-in Gong. Yet many also incorporated specialized ST methods. People who do hard labor every day have highly functional strength that would surprise many non-laborers, including many athletes.

The mistake comes when modern, mostly sedentary people think they don't need to incorporate any strength training routines, either.

I think the distinction needs to be drawn between weight lifting for strength and bodybuilding. To be honest I've never sparred with a bodybuilder who could hit very hard. Also there's two ways of generating power - internal and external. Lots of xingyi nowadays claims to be internal but if you absorb a hit from one of those dudes they are just using the external or muscle power. Internal power comes from your weight coupled with tendon strength which is the result of lots of static stance training in the santi posture. The difference between internal and external strength is that the external puncher will throw 6-8 punches in succession and then the power will begin to decline. The internal puncher can throw a punch that will knock you off your feet and he can throw another 50 or so in succession with equal power because he's not using his muscles or not beyond any more capacity than it takes to support the arms in the effort. Punching power is a balance between physical force through the muscles (minimal) and "soft" rigidity of posture. A "perfect punch would be a balance between the two variables which is optimal. Weight training is one way to go about it but in my experience an equally successful method is good ol calisthenics, push ups, pull ups. I tend to shun weight lifting in my own training because after I lift weights I need to stretch again to avoid tensing up. I usually begin my workout running in place for about 5 minutes then I do 100 jumping jacks to get the cardio working. Then I work my abs and midsection with some modified sit ups and leg lifts and I finish up with push ups, squats, and qigong which targets the arms and shoulders. The stretching is built into the workout itself so I don't have to start backtracking and doing things twice which I hate. One of the things that I have found to be of immense untility to overall strength is static stance training. I stand in both a left and right santi posture for 5 mins each side every day. There are no immediate power gains but after 6 months or so of this you will notice an incredible overall increase in strength. Lots of guys stand 5 minutes in the posture and think "Oh man I could do 10 or 15 minutes next time." But then that quick of an increase comes with pain so they get discouraged and just quit altogether. Moderation in any of your training will take you much ****her than balls to the wall.
Also if your in Kung Fu eventually you've gotta talk about qi. I am no expert but I do know how to recognize the effects and work with it. I tend to view qi as more of a guide or a rule as to whether I am doing the techniques correctly with the right posture and tension so forth.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Strength training is noted in all of the old Chinese MA manuals, not to mention the old Okinawan ones also.
It has become the "dirty little" secret in some arts ONLY because of the BS that was propagated in the past ( when MA were marketed to the lazy masses) that size and strength doesn't matter.

Every single MA that I know that is at least a competent fighter, does some sort of ST.

There are of course various types of ST, ranging from the muscular endurance type ( body weight for example) to the pure strength type to even the body builder type.
It is up to the individual to decide which method is ideal for them at ANY GIVEN point in time.
The smart ones hit on ALL types to get a well balanced strength curve.

[David Jamieson]

Resistance training to build muscle mass is no secret. :)

[RenDaHai]

I think in all areas of life people often confuse gentleness and weakness.

Gentleness is good, Weakness is a sin.

But I think one should not try and go against ones nature. For example I am wiry and thin and I can't put on weight whatever I do. For me I have found calisthenic exercise like parallel bars and chin up bars are more effective for my strength than weights. But if you are stockier than me then I think weights would be more effective as progress on bars would certainly be slow. Not that wiry people shouldn't use weights as well but, well, I do not think there will be one universal method that will be good for everyone.

Either way strength is a virtue and must be pursued in all of its manifestations.

[bawang]

Resistance training to build muscle mass is no secret. :)

ok bro then give me ur traditional hung gar lifting protocol




But I think one should not try and go against ones nature.

whole philosophy of ur shaolin kung fu is to surpass pre heaven natural abilities


Okay, Bawang. Whats your best lifts?



i did that starting strength bullsh1t to 240 then my spine disc explode, had no money ate once or twice a day and had to even count the number of meatballs to microwave. then i got some money for food did some bodybuilding body weight went from 130 to 190 pounds, but doing light baby weights. now im googling better program and want to lift heavy again. doing some high rep stuff 200 for 13 rep rite now

[Jimbo]

Strength training is noted in all of the old Chinese MA manuals, not to mention the old Okinawan ones also.
It has become the "dirty little" secret in some arts ONLY because of the BS that was propagated in the past ( when MA were marketed to the lazy masses) that size and strength doesn't matter.

Actually, that's a good point.

Particularly around the late 1800s to early 20th century, in China, an 'ideal man' was often viewed as a frail scholarly type who eschewed any type of physical labor. The alternative was a coarse, unrefined, uneducated man. When certain systems were marketed towards these scholarly types, they were often taught that size and physical strength doesn't matter and that qi/chi power would enable them to achieve superhuman abilities. Now, qi is definitely real, but not to the degree of many of those legendary feats.

Also, among some internal styles marketed to the scholarly types, it was believed that even sweating during training was counterproductive.

Similarly, when Eastern MA (such as judo/jujitsu) were first marketed in the West during the late Victorian era, it was often taught that "even a frail woman or small man can subdue a brute with little effort." In these cases, MA became a series of "tricks" designed for specific situations that someone need only remember. This marketing was directed at the upper-crust of society as a new novelty, along with spiritualism, seances, etc.

[Brat]

Actually, that's a good point.



Similarly, when Eastern MA (such as judo/jujitsu) were first marketed in the West during the late Victorian era, it was often taught that "even a frail woman or small man can subdue a brute with little effort."

I have seen this happen and actually done it to others but it is a level of mastery and is also dependent on the skill level of your opponent. It isn't hard to simply step to the side and push an opponent who is directing his force at you and seemingly throw him in mid air. It takes only a little push to do so. I can do this and did do it when I trained in Taekkyon in South Korea. When we had a new student come into the dojang it was pretty easy for the advanced students to handle them like a rag doll and throw them all over the place. After they began to improve it got more difficult. I think I threw my instructor like this just once. I have been in the presence of a teacher from China who was wiry and appeared frail. It was only when you took hold of him that you felt his tremendous power. I do agree that lots of martial arts have been marketed as such to the couch potato types and any martial art will return to you exactly what you put into it. But I also wouldn't discount soft practice as in my experience it is equally effective or even perhaps more effective than hard lifting or strength training. Farmer Burns, once the world catch wrestling champion who once defeated Jagaro Kano's best Judo student stated that deep breathing "would make a sick person healthy and a weak person strong". In his manual on wrestling about half of his warm up exercise regimen is devoted to deep breathing.

[MarathonTmatt]

first is qigong workout. if i have enough time, and i usually do, a 45 minute qigong workout is best. than a little self-massage. gotta make sure my engine is purring.

then, around 50 regular push-ups. then i do ab work- curls, and sit ups. then leg raises on my back, both double and single. then a nice leg stretch.

then is time for weights. i only bench 75 lbs., but i am not trying to go big, i guess- i focus more on reps. i do 30-40 reps. than i lift 30 lb. weights for anywhere from 50- 100 reps. then i use smaller weights for my wrist/ forearm in a kneeling stance. then back to the bench press for more reps of that.

then i do 30-40 push ups on my knuckles (making a fist) and also holding myself up in that position. than another leg stretch.

than i do a line of kicking drills back and forth, mainly high heel kicks and slapping kicks. than i will do something like a weapons form, like double short sticks or sword. than some basic reverse punches and combos, and things like round house kicks on the bag. (i do not consider this to be my "kung fu" work-out, i do that later in the day/ evening/ night usually.)

than i have those little spring things for grip strength. i use those and than do finger-tip push ups, about 20. than i do a set of snake turn-overs (iron palm conditioning) than push-ups on the back of my wrist, 20- 30. than i like to strike some things w/ back of wrist, up, down, and also palm strikes.

then on the ground for more leg stretches/ splits.

i will go for a 2 mile run 3-4 times a week. currently i wish to get back in running shape to at least half marathon target (12-15 miles).

and usually in the evenings i will do my kung fu work-outs, focus on stance, drills, kicks, forms, etc. for 2 hours if i have time.

i also do a lot of hiking and exploring, looking for remains of old stone structures, temples, caves, cairns, sacred effigies, propped boulders, etc. in the woods. sometimes i might hike a small mountain just for the hell of it. i worked on a horse farm in high school, and have always had warehouse distribution job, or produce dept. in grocery store type work. i also enjoy riding my bicycle to the beach in the summer for exercise.

[GeneChing]

Gene, I never said I was a mental giant, lol. Impatient, most certainly.
Given the type of responses we get around here sometimes, I thought that delusion was a prerequisite for membership. :p I salute your honesty and humility.

Somehow, weightlifting fell out of fashion in American martial arts. I'm not sure why. That's an interesting question, actually. I'd guess that it's another 'delusion' perpetuated by casual martial artists feeling neurotic about their muscles or lack thereof. In China, there are always weights in schools. There are even traditional weight training regimens in many styles. I'm not sure why a lot of that got lost in translation. But clearly, there has been a rejection of weight training among many American practitioners.

[boxerbilly]

Strength training is noted in all of the old Chinese MA manuals, not to mention the old Okinawan ones also.
It has become the "dirty little" secret in some arts ONLY because of the BS that was propagated in the past ( when MA were marketed to the lazy masses) that size and strength doesn't matter.

Every single MA that I know that is at least a competent fighter, does some sort of ST.

There are of course various types of ST, ranging from the muscular endurance type ( body weight for example) to the pure strength type to even the body builder type.
It is up to the individual to decide which method is ideal for them at ANY GIVEN point in time.
The smart ones hit on ALL types to get a well balanced strength curve.


Size and strength totally matter. That's another way they may increase your striking power. If you eat and get bigger. Probably going to hit harder. But, you possibly give up other things. For me, it was moving gracefully. But when I held the same body weight and got stronger, I don't think my power increased all that much. I may have been a little faster, it's hard to tell. The biggest difference was I felt strong and confident.

Again, on the ground, in my opinion strength is very needed. For me, that was where I felt a difference.

Gene, yeah I get a little hyper when I think this is going to be a good topic. Sorry. Sometimes I need to slow down. Always had that problem.

[pazman]

...and had to even count the number of meatballs to microwave.

I think I just shed a tear.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Something I shared with sanjuro ronin in another thread was that the physical education requirements in the school system was very stringent in the past. And weightlifting were a part of that. Back in the 1980's I met women who were into weightlifting in their younger days. Beyond the aesthetic, they were aware of the health benefits. Even though they were up in age and no longer trained, there was a definite benefit from training during those times that stayed with them.

mickey

[pazman]

There seems to be a lot of misinformation about weightlifting and getting bulky.

You cannot get big and bulky unless 1) you are on a specific body building routine, 2) eating like crazy, and 3) sleeping way more than you need to. This is why it is much more difficult for a skinny guy to gain weight than it is for a fat guy to lose weight. Whenever I've gained weight in the past due to injury or study, all I have to do is get back on my normal training routine, add in a little extra cardio and stay away from sweets and the weight comes off quick. Wirey guys tend to make gains in strength but not in size and they have to put in a lot of extra work to get bigger.

[Jimbo]

I have seen this happen and actually done it to others but it is a level of mastery and is also dependent on the skill level of your opponent. It isn't hard to simply step to the side and push an opponent who is directing his force at you and seemingly throw him in mid air. It takes only a little push to do so. I can do this and did do it when I trained in Taekkyon in South Korea. When we had a new student come into the dojang it was pretty easy for the advanced students to handle them like a rag doll and throw them all over the place. After they began to improve it got more difficult. I think I threw my instructor like this just once. I have been in the presence of a teacher from China who was wiry and appeared frail. It was only when you took hold of him that you felt his tremendous power. I do agree that lots of martial arts have been marketed as such to the couch potato types and any martial art will return to you exactly what you put into it. But I also wouldn't discount soft practice as in my experience it is equally effective or even perhaps more effective than hard lifting or strength training. Farmer Burns, once the world catch wrestling champion who once defeated Jagaro Kano's best Judo student stated that deep breathing "would make a sick person healthy and a weak person strong". In his manual on wrestling about half of his warm up exercise regimen is devoted to deep breathing.

Hi.

I'm not saying it doesn't or can't happen. There are indeed smaller people who can handle bigger, stronger types...I've seen it myself. The kind of nonsense in CMA that I was referring to was about stories of internal powers to be gained that are obviously untrue:

1) Sending an (highly trained) opponent flying 30 feet away with a simple, effortless strike or push. And in a real fight, not in a contrived demo.

2) The ability to jump or levitate from the ground up onto the roof. One supposed incident even reported that a southern master challenged a Taiji master. The southern master showed his mastery by jumping from the ground to the rooftop. When he turned around, he realized that, unknown to him, the Taiji master was behind him and had 'stuck to him' by touching his shoulder the whole time. The southern master conceded defeat. These types of accounts are ridiculous even if it's a low roof.

3) The ability to control or kill someone by simply pointing at him.

Those are only a few examples. There were people who actually believed that stuff, and some probably still do. There are indeed benefits from deep breathing, qigong, etc. And there are people who are capable of some very impressive feats and skills. I'm not discounting that at all. But some things have crossed over into the world of fantasy. IMO, the very best would be to combine both types of development, 'internal' and 'external'. And the line between the 'two' can become blurred.

In Taiwan, I saw a number of middle-aged or older Taiji teachers who claimed to do only 'internal' training. None of those particular individuals seemed very healthy, or even skilled. Meanwhile, another old guy who'd been a weightlifter in China when younger, and still emphasized strength as well as brisk daily walking, had far greater vitality and good health, as well as mental clarity, than those who de-emphasized vigorous exercise. Ironically, I'm sure the strong old guy had more 'internal' development than those particular Taiji masters.

[boxerbilly]

All great posts guys. Thanks. One thing I forgot to add is weights do help with that negative energy, You know, the stuff that you sometimes feel bad when you hit something. Power flows back into you. I've almost knocked myself out throwing a hard right on one of those foam makiwara boards bolted to a wall. Don't do that ! It is not pleasant.

And sorry guys, I sometimes have a tendency to flood threads. I don't mean too. Im not trying to impress anyone. Just share. My **** brain is so active at times, I forget to add all at once. Most of you probably don't have or understand that. I was the kid that could never sit still ! "Give me more, give me something to do. Or not that, that's boring." Sorry.

Really great replies. Thanks for the thread Bawang.

[bawang]

Wirey guys tend to make gains in strength but not in size and they have to put in a lot of extra work to get bigger.
wiry guys dont eat enough.

shaolin monk soldiers ate one pound of tofu a day and tubs of rice.

in chinese army promotion means more meat rations

[Brat]

Hi.

I'm not saying it doesn't or can't happen. There are indeed smaller people who can handle bigger, stronger types...I've seen it myself. The kind of nonsense in CMA that I was referring to was about stories of internal powers to be gained that are obviously untrue:

1) Sending an (highly trained) opponent flying 30 feet away with a simple, effortless strike or push. And in a real fight, not in a contrived demo.

2) The ability to jump or levitate from the ground up onto the roof. One supposed incident even reported that a southern master challenged a Taiji master. The southern master showed his mastery by jumping from the ground to the rooftop. When he turned around, he realized that, unknown to him, the Taiji master was behind him and had 'stuck to him' by touching his shoulder the whole time. The southern master conceded defeat. These types of accounts are ridiculous even if it's a low roof.

3) The ability to control or kill someone by simply pointing at him.

Those are only a few examples. There were people who actually believed that stuff, and some probably still do. There are indeed benefits from deep breathing, qigong, etc. And there are people who are capable of some very impressive feats and skills. I'm not discounting that at all. But some things have crossed over into the world of fantasy. IMO, the very best would be to combine both types of development, 'internal' and 'external'. And the line between the 'two' can become blurred.

In Taiwan, I saw a number of middle-aged or older Taiji teachers who claimed to do only 'internal' training. None of those particular individuals seemed very healthy, or even skilled. Meanwhile, another old guy who'd been a weightlifter in China when younger, and still emphasized strength as well as brisk daily walking, had far greater vitality and good health, as well as mental clarity, than those who de-emphasized vigorous exercise. Ironically, I'm sure the strong old guy had more 'internal' development than those particular Taiji masters.

I totally agree with you. It's like the yin and yang you cannot have one without the other. Interestingly (according to my instructor) whether you are practicing an internal or external style you will eventually end up in the same place. The external will soften or become more internal and the internal will become harder. both will be at the same fulcrum so to speak. Few people ever reach that level though. I've been practicing internal arts for many years now. I can actually punch out a candle from about 1'8" away. I also am not discounting these things and I've seen some pretty weird stuff. I actually saw a dude from India (not sure if he had any martial arts training) levitate himself off the floor a few inches. It was freaky! I asked my teacher about some of this stuff and he told me his teacher told him that he had witnessed lots of amazing feats back in the old days but those guys ate drank and breathed this stuff for the greater part of their lives and as they were difficult skills they weren't passed down to subsequent generations. One totally weird thing happened to me once and I am sure that I couldn't replicate it if I tried. I was working at a timeshare sales place and I was on break. One of the other guys started talking about kung fu and I told him about the iron plam stuff I used to do. He asked me to demonstrate it but I was unsure since I hadn't done it in years and there really wasn't anything readily available to break. I rubbed my palm and did some deep breathing exercises for about a minute then I lightly tapped him on the shoulder. He jolted back and seemed startled. He said that he had felt something like an electric shock from the place on his shoulder where I put my hand all the way to his crotch. The next day he told me that for years he had problems with his rotator cup in that shoulder but amazingly it was like totally healed. I left that day somewhat shaken. I've never tried anything like that again!

[bawang]

I totally agree with you. It's like the yin and yang you cannot have one without the other. Interestingly (according to my instructor) whether you are practicing an internal or external style you will eventually end up in the same place. The external will soften or become more internal and the internal will become harder. both will be at the same fulcrum so to speak. Few people ever reach that level though. I've been practicing internal arts for many years now. I can actually punch out a candle from about 1'8" away. I also am not discounting these things and I've seen some pretty weird stuff. I actually saw a dude from India (not sure if he had any martial arts training) levitate himself off the floor a few inches. It was freaky! I asked my teacher about some of this stuff and he told me his teacher told him that he had witnessed lots of amazing feats back in the old days but those guys ate drank and breathed this stuff for the greater part of their lives and as they were difficult skills they weren't passed down to subsequent generations. One totally weird thing happened to me once and I am sure that I couldn't replicate it if I tried. I was working at a timeshare sales place and I was on break. One of the other guys started talking about kung fu and I told him about the iron plam stuff I used to do. He asked me to demonstrate it but I was unsure since I hadn't done it in years and there really wasn't anything readily available to break. I rubbed my palm and did some deep breathing exercises for about a minute then I lightly tapped him on the shoulder. He jolted back and seemed startled. He said that he had felt something like an electric shock from the place on his shoulder where I put my hand all the way to his crotch. The next day he told me that for years he had problems with his rotator cup in that shoulder but amazingly it was like totally healed. I left that day somewhat shaken. I've never tried anything like that again!
r u on bath salts bro

[boxerbilly]

r u on bath salts bro

LOL.

That one did cross into the realms of hocus-pocus. But I was not there!

[Brat]

r u on bath salts bro

I get this lots. It's ok. I was at a get together in Bangkok where lots of English teachers were. There was this dude from Goa, India named Vivik. He showed us this video on his phone of him supposedly levitating off the floor. One of the guys, a Brit told him that he wouldn't believe it even if he saw it. So this dude had everyone gather around him in a circle and he started this chanting sort of stuff and he closed his eyes. No kidding the dude did actually come up off the floor maybe 3 inches with absolutely no bending of his legs to jump whatsoever and it was slow not like he jumped. Probably lasted 3 seconds in total. Brit dude shat his pants much like the rest of us. Then he went over and grabbed a guitar and started jamming some totally perfect Megadeath. Ya had to be there.

[boxerbilly]

It's cool Brat. We were not there so we don't know what you saw. The guy could have been a talented street magician ? I personally don't believe in floating unless you call being so drunk it feels like you are as real. Thanks for the story.

[boxerbilly]

India is loaded with street magic. Some of those guys are masters. Not as you described but we have all seen David Blain. Indian Holy-men are known for a trick or 2. They are people after all. Prone to having a good time with others. They give you glimpse and leave it at that. Otherwise you'll figure out what they did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1I8cLhCcQ4

[mickey]

Greetings,

Brat,

That levitator had to rub liniment on his joint for the next two weeks. His guitar play was sublimated screaming. You've got to see the signs, man! It was all there. It was just a hard on.

mickey

[curenado]

9384

Just because some people can't float I swear...

[Brat]

I'm not saying it wasn't some form of trickery but it really appeared that he was hovering off the floor. One gal a South African stooped down and looked and said that nothing was touching the floor under his feet. There were no wires. How he did it is beyond me. Also when he lifted off the floor his feet swung outwards like he had been picked up by the shoulders only problem is that there was nothing there.

[mickey]

Hi Brat,

I was just joking. I do believe in those abilities.

mickey

[Brat]

My teacher had some good stories about his teacher's instructor who died in 1917. His name was (as best I can remember) Leung cho or something like that. Translated as Dragon Cho and it was a given name his real name and all I don't know. Anyway Dragon Cho was a local legend in Southern China. He had come from the north originally from Shanxi province. He was regarded as one of the great Xingyi masters of the day although he would never get the publicity belonging to Sun lu Tang or Jiang rong chow. His name derived form the fact that he could spring over an eight foot wall from the low dragon posture in xingyi. He was also reputed to have a skill of being able to shout a high pitched Kiap that could temporarily deafen an opponent.
My instructor's teacher (whose name I don't know) trained with Dragon cho for about 6 years. Apparently Dragon cho was regarded as an abrasive man and under no circumstances would accept students. This was attributed to the fact that he had been in so many fights from guys challenging him in his younger days he was afraid to reveal any of his secrets. My teacher's teacher's father was a businessman who Dragon Cho was indebted to for a sizable sum of money. His father told Dragon Cho that he would release him from all obligations of the debt if he would teach his son. Reluctantly Dragon Cho agreed due to the impossibility of being able to pay off the debt.
At first it was difficult to train under Cho because he was not interested in teaching and gave the son lots of hardships. Eventually Cho got used to his pupil and they developed a friendship. Teacher said that his teacher told him many stories of the feats Dragon Cho could do and swore that he witnessed them. On one occasion he and and Dragon Cho were racing to Cho's house across a field with the stipulation that the person who got there first would not have to go to the market to buy food. Dragon Cho was well advanced in years and the student could easily keep up with him. They approached a wall which had an opening about 25 meters to the right that they would have to go through. Dragon Cho however ran straight toward the wall and hurdled it clearing it well more thn a meter without missing a beat. The wall was higher than the student's head.
On another occasion Dragon Cho and his student were traveling away from their town and stopped into an inn to have some food. There was some kind of problem at the place which brought the local magistrate, a well known Kung fu master. The man was just as ornery as Dragon cho and the two got into an argument. Dragon cho was sitting in a chair and finally told the magistrate if he could succeed in pulling him out of the chair he would go with the magistrate to be arrested. The guy tried for about 30 minutes to remove Dragon Cho form the chair but exhausted he finally conceded defeat. Suspecting that Cho was a great Kung Fu master he left without further ado.
My teacher said that his teacher wanted Dragon Cho to teach him the jumping ability (Dragon Cho claimed it had to do with breathing control) but he declined stating that it took at least 10 years to fully master and that in about a year he would be completely out of debt with his father and would no longer be teaching him. He also claimed that his (Dragon Cho's) teacher was even more highly skilled than he and could perform many greater feats that challenged reasoning.

[bawang]

My teacher had some good stories about his teacher's instructor who died in 1917. His name was (as best I can remember) Leung cho or something like that. Translated as Dragon Cho and it was a given name his real name and all I don't know. Anyway Dragon Cho was a local legend in Southern China. He had come from the north originally from Shanxi province. He was regarded as one of the great Xingyi masters of the day although he would never get the publicity belonging to Sun lu Tang or Jiang rong chow. His name derived form the fact that he could spring over an eight foot wall from the low dragon posture in xingyi. He was also reputed to have a skill of being able to shout a high pitched Kiap that could temporarily deafen an opponent.
My instructor's teacher (whose name I don't know) trained with Dragon cho for about 6 years. Apparently Dragon cho was regarded as an abrasive man and under no circumstances would accept students. This was attributed to the fact that he had been in so many fights from guys challenging him in his younger days he was afraid to reveal any of his secrets. My teacher's teacher's father was a businessman who Dragon Cho was indebted to for a sizable sum of money. His father told Dragon Cho that he would release him from all obligations of the debt if he would teach his son. Reluctantly Dragon Cho agreed due to the impossibility of being able to pay off the debt.
At first it was difficult to train under Cho because he was not interested in teaching and gave the son lots of hardships. Eventually Cho got used to his pupil and they developed a friendship. Teacher said that his teacher told him many stories of the feats Dragon Cho could do and swore that he witnessed them. On one occasion he and and Dragon Cho were racing to Cho's house across a field with the stipulation that the person who got there first would not have to go to the market to buy food. Dragon Cho was well advanced in years and the student could easily keep up with him. They approached a wall which had an opening about 25 meters to the right that they would have to go through. Dragon Cho however ran straight toward the wall and hurdled it clearing it well more thn a meter without missing a beat. The wall was higher than the student's head.
On another occasion Dragon Cho and his student were traveling away from their town and stopped into an inn to have some food. There was some kind of problem at the place which brought the local magistrate, a well known Kung fu master. The man was just as ornery as Dragon cho and the two got into an argument. Dragon cho was sitting in a chair and finally told the magistrate if he could succeed in pulling him out of the chair he would go with the magistrate to be arrested. The guy tried for about 30 minutes to remove Dragon Cho form the chair but exhausted he finally conceded defeat. Suspecting that Cho was a great Kung Fu master he left without further ado.
My teacher said that his teacher wanted Dragon Cho to teach him the jumping ability (Dragon Cho claimed it had to do with breathing control) but he declined stating that it took at least 10 years to fully master and that in about a year he would be completely out of debt with his father and would no longer be teaching him. He also claimed that his (Dragon Cho's) teacher was even more highly skilled than he and could perform many greater feats that challenged reasoning.

gay

khkjhl

[Brat]

gay

khkjhl

To each his own.

[Mor Sao]

paragraphs are your friend.

or in your case.

not your friend.

[boxerbilly]

Okay lets me ask this.

Is there anyone here that managed to get that 300 lbs bench? 500lbs squat and the same or higher with the deadlift? Or anyone just have some pet lift that you were ungodly strong at?

Brat, I assume you read about the time I got jumped. One of the guys I was in it with was a bodybuilder. He went pro but never did better than local events really. But man was he strong. He did 500lbs squat, 3 times his senior year. He had the best squat that year. He was also the guy I mentioned was a far better fighter than me. Yeah , he hit hard. He was Isshin Ryu and judo.

[curenado]

To each his own.

His own all have their heads proudly hanging on wall in forbidden city like house elves at Sirius black's. You will never break it's resolve or disrupt it's portrait comforting and it bites.

"There, there Empress. Bawang is here...." :)

[boxerbilly]

All right, lay off him. He is just telling stories he heard and some street magic he saw. We all have a natural inclination to believe in legends and conspiracy. I don't mind reading it.

[curenado]

wiry guys dont eat enough.

shaolin monk soldiers ate one pound of tofu a day and tubs of rice.

in chinese army promotion means more meat rations

Not many even think about that. I have no idea if food or weights most important secret but in same box. Labeled "Day 1".
I think here lots prove that they can overcome food choices and other places people wish to overcome by food choices? But how many dragon fighting societies have no food thing. (Chi fan? They have no chi fan? I don't even know if that's right)

[boxerbilly]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sH0uR2u7Hs

[Brat]

Okay lets me ask this.

Is there anyone here that managed to get that 300 lbs bench? 500lbs squat and the same or higher with the deadlift? Or anyone just have some pet lift that you were ungodly strong at?

Brat, I assume you read about the time I got jumped. One of the guys I was in it with was a bodybuilder. He went pro but never did better than local events really. But man was he strong. He did 500lbs squat, 3 times his senior year. He had the best squat that year. He was also the guy I mentioned was a far better fighter than me. Yeah , he hit hard. He was Isshin Ryu and judo.

No I didn't read about that billy. But I would assume that his Isshin Ryu and Judo played the greatest part in his success albiet the strength from bodybuilding could have and probably did help. Back in the 1980's everybody was in the bodybuilding craze (well not everybody but lots of people) and they lifted weights primarily to look tough so people wouldn't mess with them (I fell into this category as well but I was also a HS wrestler so I had some combat ability). That's why you saw lots of guys who were 5'2" - 5'5" walking around all buff. Not many bodybuilders could utilize their strength because in punching it just doesn't work that way. Bench press by itself doesn't equal a hard punch. Now in grappling it's another story.

When I went to South Korea I had training in HS wrestling, Judo, BJJ, TKD, and some other stuff. I joined a Taekkyon dojang. The teacher had me stand with him inside a 1.5 x 1.5 meter sqaure, take him in a referee tie up and attempt to move him out of the square. I tried to budge him for about 5 minutes until I gave up. I realized at that point that there was much I could learn from him. Now I've told this story before to people - BJJ guys, Kung Fu guys who have trained over here and they've all called BS. After about 6 months of training I could move him to the edge of the square I could never move him out.

When I went to Bangkok I began training at Rangsit Stadium in Muay Thai. I really didn't care much for Muay Thai but it is held in high regard in the MA community and I did learn lots about closing the distance as well as other things which I benefited from. I eventually was introduced to my xingyi teacher. When I first sparred with him he didn't dance around and do kickboxing like most guys you see. It was strict xingyi technique. I couldn't touch him. Every time I would move to strike he would just step away or dart to the side and strike me leaving me completely undefended.

There are crappy teachers in Asia to be sure just as there are here. I just happen to luck out and have some really good ones. What I mean to tell you is that there is a mindset to training that is totally foreign to most of us. I got a peek at it and in no way am I claiming to be an expert but what held me back the most in this training was divesting myself of most of what had been taught to me in the west which according to my Takkyon teacher (in a very cordial manner) was ****! Many people especially lots of the grappling guys I trained with had the impression that lots of the stories about the great masters were trumped up and embellished. And in some cases that may be true. But borrowing some mental techniques that are widely used in western training, if you only believe that you can run a certain distance in a certain amount of time you will never reach beyond the limitations you have set for yourself. If you approach training with the mindset that your pumping iron and all is the have all end all then that is all you will achieve. If there is in fact something else out there you will have limited yourself to that. You may never be able to jump over a high jump pole at a certain height. But if you try and try even failing every day who knows how much improvement you might have gained rather than just saying **** it and never trying? Weight training or calasthenics/strength training is important if you want to be the best you can but it is only one piece of the puzzle. There are many more things in play in a strike and I do know what they are. That has come through proper instruction and more importantly practice. Lots of practice.

The Erle Montaigue student I sparred with a couple years back didn't have the essence of the art he had studied. In my opinion he had been corrupted by a flawed mindset and whether that was imparted to him by Erle or just baggage he brought with him from other things I cannot say. I know that I am also inviting myself to be flamed by this posting but that is not my intention either. I don't want to offend anyone.

The irony of it all is that I have never used the techniques and training I got in a real fight. The last 3 fights I was ever in (spanning a 25 year period) two of them were won by techniques I picked up off videos. Go figure.

[curenado]

" What I mean to tell you is that there is a mindset to training that is totally foreign to most of us. I got a peek at it and in no way am I claiming to be an expert but what held me back the most in this training was divesting myself of most of what had been taught to me in the west which according to my Takkyon teacher (in a very cordial manner) was ****! "

:)

Myself, one attack by two should have been a youtube video of grace and control. Tough nugs.
The other is hard to say. Pitch black and murder the motive. What happened I called Xing gong quan. Weedhopper sh*t, went into 5th gear and came to at choice whether to kill him or not. So yes, gong fu. But automatic pilot still difficult to dissect by moment.

[boxerbilly]

Brat, I bow to you and all you have been able to do and places you have gone to in your life. I enjoy the stories. Thanks.


And for the rest of you- Greatest Band that ever was


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5kmCgVhADY

[Brat]

Brat, I bow to you and all you have been able to do and places you have gone to in your life. I enjoy the stories. Thanks.


And for the rest of you- Greatest Band that ever was


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5kmCgVhADY

No one bows to me boxerbilly I'm just a fellow hobbyist. I do get a little tired of people calling BS on some of this stuff but I used to be just like them. I was clearly more skilled (with just two years of training) than a dude who had trained under Earle Montaigue and written a book and did a video nonetheless. And I consider my skill to be pretty novice. I can tell you right now that in no way am I as good as my teacher. He could whoop my azz in a second even at his age. In turn he claimed that he wasn't as good as his teacher who claimed that he was no where as skilled as Dragon Cho who was adamant that his skill paled in comparison to his teacher. Which leads me to question just how good were those guys? So if I am perfectly honest in stating that I am not as good as my teacher why should anyone question the others? Equally then it seems absurd for some meat head to suggest that those guys were just the product of overactive imaginations and they would be dispatched easily by some modern day cage fighter or some ham at a local MMA gym.

I actually wrote down stories going back 5 generations as told to me by my teacher. I lost the page where he named his teacher so I don't readily have that info but there was not much info about him other than that he claimed to be less skilled than Dragon Cho. Keep in mind this info was told me by an elderly Thai gentleman who spoke passable English who had the info dictated to him by a Chinese guy who only spoke Mandarin and was talking about events that happened mostly before his birth. Also forgive the Romanizations because I am sure they aren't correct. The info was passed to my teacher's teacher via Dragon Cho. Dragon cho had apparently had a really **** life and never liked to talk about much due to the pain it brought him. Shortly after inheriting a profitable textile business from his adoptive father his wife was crushed by a wagon wheel and died instantly. He was left a widower with two daughters who not long after died of fever. So you can see why he had a chip on his shoulder. He had one weakness though - alcohol. Every night he would get hammered on liquer and then his lips would loosen. My teacher's teacher got all the info during those times and Dragon Cho would wake up not remembering what he had said.

The first guy recorded in the line of grandmasters was named Gao daiming (as best as I can translate from what was told me). Gao daiming was born to a peasant family who didn't have a pot to **** in or a window to throw it out. They were farmers. Gao daiming had a gift though. He was surprisingly strong and full of vigor. As a child he won all of the competitions at the festivals in his province. A local man who had served as a Royal Guard then in retirement took notice of Gao diaming's ability and offered to accept him as a student. He was taught what was described as "Deer Style" which was a military style of combat including weapons of sword, spear, chain whip, halbred, bow and arrow and many others.

He eventually became very skilled learning all that his teacher knew. As a teenager he opted to become a bodyguard which was a common profession for martial artists then as bandits were very prolific. Gao made much more money than a farmer at this. There was a local government official - a manchu that had a daughter who was very, very beautiful. Her mother had died and her father was very protective of her and shunned her having much contact with anyone except a few loyal servants. One day the girl was traveling with her coach bearers and a personal guard who rode with her in the coach. Gao daiming had been hired to escort the entourage traveling on foot.

Four bandits had gotten wind of the expedition and plotted to attack the convoy and kidnap the daughter to be held for ransom. They attacked and Gao drawing his sword slew two of the bandits. A third breached the coach and killed the girl's bodyguard. The fourth wiped out the coach bearers. The third bandit held the girl hostage while the fourth taunted Gao daiming. Gao daiming's sword was a specially designed one that was balanced to be thrown as well as wielded normally. Apparently the girl lost her stomach and puked which grossed out the bandit holding her and it gave Gao daiming the opening he needed to drive the sword home throwing it through his chest. The other bandit high tailed it.

The daughter's feet had been bound which meant she couldn't walk long distances so Gao had to carry her to the next village where they could dispatch a rider to go for help. The girl tried talking to Gao but he wasn't really comfortable because of his sense of duty talking to a royal. Eventually the girl's feminine wiles got the best of him and they chatted. She was a little bit older than him (7 years) and was not particularly fond of her father's attitude toward her. Her mother had been more of a commoner and let her play outside and get dirty. When she had passed her father wouldn't let her do anything.

They reached the next village and the father arrived in a day or so while Gao guarded the young lady. But the daughter was in love with Gao daiming and with the help of some loyal household staff she arranged for letters to be written to him. They met under duress several times and the girl begged him to take her and run away because she couldn't stand her father and his injustices any longer. Gao daiming loved her too and they made plans. But the father found out and he was furious that his daughter had fallen for a common ruffian. He plotted to kill Gao daiming. The father was reputed to be pretty handy with a broad sword and he waited until the two lovers were to steal away and set a trap confronting Gao daiming. Gao daiming had no grand aspirations of killing his potential father in law but the latter gave him no choice. Gao daiming's swordsmanship proved to be superior to the father's and the father bled to death in the courtyard of the estate. The guards then attacked Gao daiming but he attacked them with equal brutality causing them to retreat for reinforcements. Gao daiming took the girl and escaped to a friends house who hid the two lovers.

Gao was well connected with the logistics industry due to his profession as a bodyguard and a friend and business owner arranged for them to stow away on a wagon bound for Shanxi province. Gao had a immediate problem - her feet. Anyone could tell that she was not a commoner and if news got back to the province the locals might put two and to together and they would be back in hot water. So Gao used a concoction of herbs and massage to treat her feet and within time she could walk normally.

They arrived in Shanxi province where Gao used some letters of recommendation from his friend (under an assumed name) to gain employment for a local estate as a laborer. The owner of the estate immediately took notice of Gao daiming because of his strength and his ability to do the work of three men without complaining. The owner of the estate was also a master of Shanxi quan, a hard style of xingyiquan common locally. He was sure that Gao daiming was a martial artist of some ability but he wanted to test him. Though Gao daiming was regarded as a man of noble character the owner stormed into the laborer's quarters one evening and accused Gao daiming of some treachery. He demanded a fight outside. Of course Gao daiming didn't want this but the owner attacked him. The two fought mercilessly for several minutes until the owner finally halted the engagement.

He apoligized for his deceitfulness in accusing Gao daiming of the wrong but told him that he wanted to test his skills as a pugilist. He was very impressed by Gao daiming's martial abilities and offered him a promotion to overseer and to become his personal student. Gao accepted and trained for many years in his employer's style. Gao became almost as a son to the owner and when the latter passed he was given an inheritance with the children. He used this inheritance to start a textile business.

Gao daiming and his wife had three children - two daughters and a younger son who they named shanlan (Gao shanlan). It is not known whether Gao daiming taught his girls any Kung Fu but he taught all of his skills to Shanlan. When Gao Daiming was old his wife had passed and he charged Shanlan that upon his passing that he should return to his home province, find family members and inform them of the whereabouts and story of all that had transpired. In addition he should make restitution for the treachery of having killed the Manchu lord.

After laying Gao daiming to rest, Shanlan sold the textile company, (giving him a considerable amount of capital), traveled to the home province and looked up the family members. They were overjoyed to receive him and find out what had happened to the long lost brother and uncle. He also discovered that the province was under new governance and the new magistrate cared little for the plight of the dead former lord.

Shanlan opened a textile business and married a friend of his cousin. The business was very successful but he had a problem. His wife could not have any children. One of his business associates was killed along with his wife and two of their children (maybe in a fire) leaving a lone boy child orphaned (this would be Dragon Cho).






contd

[Brat]

The child was adopted by Shanlan and his wife and was tutored in the Kung Fu style of his adoptive father for 30 years. Shanlan's skill was regarded as legendary. One story was that he had a friend who was falsely accused of a crime by a local corrupt politician. The man was sentenced to hang by the neck. Shanlan knew of his innocence and offered himself up for the penalty of death in place of his friend. The corrupt politician agreed to accept Shanlan as executee instead of the other man thinking that he could get rid of Shanlan and eventually the man in question at a later date.

Shanlan was noosed and hung. But he wouldn't die. He hung there for a long time but was still breathing and looking around. The onlookers became agitated and shouted that he should be let down as his refusal to die was proof of his innocence and the innocence of his friend. The rope was cut and Shanlan ran to the house of the politician (which had been bolted closed) and scaling the wall and entering through the a second stroy window began to beat the man senseless. Also Shanlan is said to have studied a Hebei style of Xingyiquan and modified Gao daiming's original style making it more soft in practice.

Eventually Shanlan passed and Dragon Cho inherited the business. After the deaths of his wife and twin daughters he began hitting the booze heavily and couldn't manage his business well. He became indebted to many people. One man who was a friend and business associate felt very sorry of the plight of Dragon Cho. He bought all of the debt and promised to release Cho of the obligation and also provide him with a small pension allowing him to keep his house and lively hood if he would train his son in the famous style of Kung Fu he was known for. That son was of course my teacher's teacher. He trained with Dragon Cho for 6 years which was the time agreed upon by his father and Cho to settle the debt owed.

It isn't known whether Dragon Cho was trained in the obscure Deer style which was apparently passed to Shanlan but Shanlan studied many different techniques of Kung fu incorporating them into the overall style of Xingyiquan he passed to Dragon Cho. The deer style was lost to history as was lots of other stuff due to the fact that my teacher's teacher nly trained six years with Dragon Cho who had trained 30 years with Shanlan.

So I got to train 2 years learning the basics of this style of Xingyiquan all because of the alcoholism of a depressed Kung Fu grand master who couldn't pay his bills!

[boxerbilly]

Glad to see you removed your phone number Brat. This forum is loaded with wacko's , lol. I saw it earlier on my way out and was not sure who you wanted to call you. Probably a mistake. Careful with the copy and paste buddy .

[Brat]

To be honest with you I don't know anything about it and apparently neither did my teacher's teacher. It exists in citation only as having been the original style studied by Gao daiming. Whatever Dragon Cho knew sadly he took with him. According to my teacher sometime around 1917 in autumn two young men found him unresponsive laying on a road near his house. Probably died of heart failure or a stroke. Gao shanlan was revered as the greatest proponent of the styles as he fought more people and was credited with lots more adventures than his father but at the same time he was always busy with his business and martial arts was a secondary endeavor. After the incident with the manchu dude, Gao daiming and his wife laid pretty low the rest of their lives and used assumed names up until their deaths. The xingyiqun taught by Gao daimings employer took precedence as the favored style. The xingyi is the standard 5 elements 12 animals with linking and an shen pao two man forms you can find in other styles. There are two different forms for each of the 5 elements I think reflecting the old Shanxi style and the newer Hebei it was combined with so actually there are 10 elements forms two of each. The animal styles are a bit more acrobatic than I have seen in other styles.

[bawang]

Glad to see you removed your phone number Brat. This forum is loaded with wacko's , lol. I saw it earlier on my way out and was not sure who you wanted to call you. Probably a mistake. Careful with the copy and paste buddy .

dragon cho and floating indian heavy metal guitar players is not crazy at all.

story sounds like schitzophrenia word salad

[boxerbilly]

dragon cho and floating indian heavy metal guitar players is not crazy at all.

story sounds like schitzophrenia word salad

No ! He is simply relaying what he saw and stories he was told. Really its no worse than biting your fingernails worried about Mexico invading and offering to sell your students out as bodyguards to walk you to the corner store for a pack of smokes and wondering if you can cash in on that worry. That's good business. That's Compton!

I'll take the old fairy tales over the modern ones.

[Brat]

No ! He is simply relaying what he saw and stories he was told. Really its no worse than biting your fingernails worried about Mexico invading and offering to sell your students out as bodyguards to walk you to the corner store for a pack of smokes and wondering if you can cash in on that worry. That's good business. That's Compton!

I'll take the old fairy tales over the modern ones.

It's ok boxerbilly he's way more considerate than the BJJ trolls that used to lurk here. I honestly could give a rats arse what he thinks. Just imagine yourself on the roof of a 6 story building in northern Bangkok sipping coconut juice and having a real Kung Fu master relate the previous story to you. Then ask yourself "What cool thing have I done lately?" I only posted the story because you said you enjoyed reading them and I thought I'd give you the long version. I can't vouch for anything other than that my teacher was one bad MFer but it's not overly different from many stories from styles I've read about in magazines so take it for what it's worth. :)

[boxerbilly]

Hey man, they are all good guys I am sure. But, people, myself include sometimes step on others toes and it happens. I got nothing against anyone. Curenado seems nice. We just bumped shoulders. It happens. Trust me. I'm not the only one that enjoyed your story. Yes, it sidetracked the thread but that happens too I guess. Some say its trolling, I think its just the nature of people.

Curenado , if you really think you have a business , good luck man. I know me and I know regardless my experience , I am no where near qualified to provide protection/ instruction to anyone in that context. And I believe that is the case for most guys in any of this. Perhaps you have other skills and YES cops qualify in my opinion. But you do as you like.

[curenado]

Oh gee thanks for your permission. Totally insignificant opinions trouble me so.

[boxerbilly]

Sounds good. Probably work out as well as your homemade knife sales. Anyway, I need to fill out another am/pm application. I ran 7-11 into the ground.

[bawang]

It's ok boxerbilly he's way more considerate than the BJJ trolls that used to lurk here. I honestly could give a rats arse what he thinks. Just imagine yourself on the roof of a 6 story building in northern Bangkok sipping coconut juice and having a real Kung Fu master relate the previous story to you. Then ask yourself "What cool thing have I done lately?" I only posted the story because you said you enjoyed reading them and I thought I'd give you the long version. I can't vouch for anything other than that my teacher was one bad MFer but it's not overly different from many stories from styles I've read about in magazines so take it for what it's worth. :)
interesting. this reminds me of the time when i was horemongering in cambodia. i met a nigerian who could instantly ejaculate on command. he said that when he was a boy he had suffered from jaundice but an old chinese master diagnosed him with an excess fire qi and advice him to ejaculate often to build kidney qi. this had vastly impressed my mates who showered him with vestitude and glowing restitution. he claims to have learned this from (forgive my pinyang) tsao nima who was famous in burmese siulam temple as the purple wiener. i learned under bwakkaw por pramuk at lumpini stadium but found he was not that skilled. instead i found a bajiquan teacher in the jungles of khon muang when i was visiting my ladyboy penpal nueng.Then ask yourself "What it's not overly he's ok sipping thern Bangkok sipping in masted real Kung a rately?" I can't vouch for way more considerats arself one late than the late the previous so take it from many story to yourself only he's worthe BJJ trolls therent for what used than the roof only her but it's north It's only differe. I can't vouch for what imagazinestly cool therent from story to lurk he's not oversion. I hone bad MFer than that he previous stories from master the late the long othJusely thing theratern magiver te the ing hany honut imagazing oversipping therly?" I take ster take troolly theread MFerated MFerly?" I dones thats an a readines I thang on. Jused rol therbilly?" I ok stylesto lon. It's storeachereviong Fu enjoyed you sionly hat ot from my thing Fu storthou saiderateal Kung the lat fory badifferated he arse cone whateacher ang therse BJJ tory ding ines ot can thenjoyed giverbills way hany differeadines abouldifferats only?" I donsippin BJJ take ing vou my but vou

[boxerbilly]

interesting. this reminds me of the time when i was horemongering in cambodia. i met a nigerian who could instantly ejaculate on command. he said that when he was a boy he had suffered from jaundice but an old chinese master diagnosed him with an excess fire qi and advice him to ejaculate often to build kidney qi. this had vastly impressed my mates who showered him with vestitude and glowing restitution. he claims to have learned this from (forgive my pinyang) tsao nima who was famous in burmese siulam temple as the purple wiener. i learned under bwakkaw por pramuk at lumpini stadium but found he was not that skilled. instead i found a bajiquan teacher in the jungles of khon muang when i was visiting my ladyboy penpal nueng.Then ask yourself "What it's not overly he's ok sipping thern Bangkok sipping in masted real Kung a rately?" I can't vouch for way more considerats arself one late than the late the previous so take it from many story to yourself only he's worthe BJJ trolls therent for what used than the roof only her but it's north It's only differe. I can't vouch for what imagazinestly cool therent from story to lurk he's not oversion. I hone bad MFer than that he previous stories from master the late the long othJusely thing theratern magiver te the ing hany honut imagazing oversipping therly?" I take ster take troolly theread MFerated MFerly?" I dones thats an a readines I thang on. Jused rol therbilly?" I ok stylesto lon. It's storeachereviong Fu enjoyed you sionly hat ot from my thing Fu storthou saiderateal Kung the lat fory badifferated he arse cone whateacher ang therse BJJ tory ding ines ot can thenjoyed giverbills way hany differeadines abouldifferats only?" I donsippin BJJ take ing vou my but vou

Really? You want to do this too?

[Kellen Bassette]

interesting. this reminds me of the time when i was horemongering in cambodia. i met a nigerian who could instantly ejaculate on command. he said that when he was a boy he had suffered from jaundice but an old chinese master diagnosed him with an excess fire qi and advice him to ejaculate often to build kidney qi. this had vastly impressed my mates who showered him with vestitude and glowing restitution. he claims to have learned this from (forgive my pinyang) tsao nima who was famous in burmese siulam temple as the purple wiener. i learned under bwakkaw por pramuk at lumpini stadium but found he was not that skilled. instead i found a bajiquan teacher in the jungles of khon muang when i was visiting my ladyboy penpal nueng.

I'm confused, did you learn to lift weights from the Cambodian prostitutes, the Nigerian wanker or the ladyboy? :confused::confused::confused:

[curenado]

His mother? Where you been? :)

It does follow the western self respect standard though. A knowledgeable person who loves dumb butt about as much as I do, makes a legitimate powerful post and gets followed by idiotic, junior high locker room trolling for attention. "TWB"? Typical white behavior? Incapable of giving respect where it is due and wholly desperate to say something clever - because that about all it got?
Ol Bawap might be wrong. The first secret of gong fu might be "fit to let indoors", but I'm figuring he took that one for granted? Silly him?

[boxerbilly]

His mother? Where you been? :)

It does follow the western self respect standard though. A knowledgeable person who loves dumb butt about as much as I do, makes a legitimate powerful post and gets followed by idiotic, junior high locker room trolling for attention. "TWB"? Typical white behavior? Incapable of giving respect where it is due and wholly desperate to say something clever - because that about all it got?
Ol Bawap might be wrong. The first secret of gong fu might be "fit to let indoors", but I'm figuring he took that one for granted? Silly him?

Man you really have a mental or social deficit. Probably both. Im following you because I posted in your thread and responded back to your posts? I also said I will do my best to stay out of any threads you start. And you did mention serious kung fu in that thread. But was it about kung fu or was it about becoming a soldier of fortune for cash ? I guess Im a typical white dude for posting in your legitimate thread about becoming a street ninja and saying it is a joke. Call that clever if you like.

[curenado]

9387
One thing I have gotten out of this, water bucket boy with fields, hay bales and chores does get about the same as the weights guy and really all the better, in a club where the awareness of even development and avoiding rigidity are known. That's if of course, water is carried every day for a very long time.
I walked down the mountain 12 miles to town and back for years and miles a day on the mountain making rounds too. Simple thing but truly great benefits.
The old deal about being at temple months before wu shu was because of that.

[boxerbilly]

So, it looks like none of us ever got the really strong lifts.

Was it genetics? Lack of drugs? Or could it be none of us pushed hard enough or did it long enough to make a difference? Most guys it seems hit a certain poundage and become compliant. Brat made some recent comments about pushing past your perceived beliefs. So maybe we just lacked mental fortitude and belief we could do better than a certain level ? Something that carries over into all areas of life I guess.

compliant, I meant complacent. I leave it there so people can have a laugh, make fun or understand. I could care less which.

[bawang]

So, it looks like none of us ever got the really strong lifts.



i would be a lot stronger if i didnt follow internal kung fu advice and avoid muscle. and after i started lifting years of qigong had severely weakened my abdominal wall leading to spinal instability which caused spinal disc injury during deadlift.

recently decided to start lifting again and i did readings about modern western lifting and also asked hometown kung fu ppl about traditional weight lifting. in 2 months i made back same progress that took me 1 year before.

[boxerbilly]

i would be a lot stronger if i didnt follow internal kung fu advice and avoid muscle. and after i started lifting years of qigong had severely weakened my abdominal wall leading to spinal instability which caused spinal disc injury.

Really, you believe that qigong breathing caused those issues? I don't mean that as a slight. It could be mistaken for that at present but I assure you I am sincere. I too have some instability. But, it was form an injury to my neck and back. I've been fighting like the devil to regain proper function. One day. Don't give up. Man, a couple of times I wanted to!

[boxerbilly]

Bawang, were you doing any weird static holds while practicing your qiqong? Just a thought that maybe you could have created a huge muscle imbalance in your core muscles. Trained them to become less elastic?

[bawang]

Really, you believe that qigong breathing caused those issues? I don't mean that as a slight. It could be mistaken for that at present but I assure you I am sincere. I too have some instability. But, it was form an injury to my neck and back. I've been fighting like the devil to regain proper function. One day. Don't give up. Man, a couple of times I wanted to!

deep abdominal breathing that expands the lower abdomen had loosened the transverse ab muscle, the "muscle belt" that stabilizes the spine. long hours of sitting caused hamstring weakness aka "rabbit feet rubber band legs" of kung fu.

deadlifting revealed this weakness and caused the injury. ironically after 1 year of pain i was cured only by resuming deadlifting.


it was form an injury to my neck and back. I've been fighting like the devil to regain proper function.

how did u injure and have u tried traction

[boxerbilly]

I think it was remodel work. I was using Vicodin because of shoulder pain. It was prescribed. That's an old injury from throwing a punch. I think I must have hurt myself but being on the pain killer numbed the experience and I probably just did not realize it. I don't know specifically what I did. But, once it really hit me, I went down. I was on the couch for like 9 months. I could barely make it to the bathroom it was so difficult to stay balanced.

Buddy, they sent me in for all sorts of tests. Yes , I went to therapy for my neck. In fact it was almost 3 months before I felt any pain. Nerve damage? They found out I have arthritis in my neck and a bulging disc and attribute that to boxing. Regardless, I found out how unprepared our medical profession is unless they know specifically the issue. Or trauma care. I told a couple of doc's where they could go. Some huge jerks I wanted to crack I paid for their wrong diagnosis!

Anyway, I've contemplated dead lifts. I bought the inversion table to traction my back and it seems to do the same for the neck to a degree. I'm so close to being normal again, I can taste it. It might still be a year away but that's okay by me as long as it one day ends!

Opps, yes in therapy my neck was put in traction.

[bawang]

i dont know if doctors explained to u but spinal discs have no blood vessels and the best way to pump nutrients in it is by mechanical action.

basically u can sell ur inversion table and just do dips and pull ups

[boxerbilly]

No I'll keep it. I like it a lot. it is doing as I hope it would. Stretch the muscle in a way I am not able to by other methods.

I should have said, I don't have any spinal damage aside for the bulging disc and arthritis and I have probably and that so long it never bothered me. My injury would be more akin to a whiplash type injury. Soft tissue damage. It limits the types and amounts of stress you can apply. That's what I have found out anyway.
I don't just hang as a work out ,lol. I just use it to stretch muscle that more than likely tighten up to stabilize for others that got damaged. Read up on whiplash and you may find recovery can take along time. In some cases it does not happen fully. I don't want to be that person.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Okay lets me ask this.

Is there anyone here that managed to get that 300 lbs bench? 500lbs squat and the same or higher with the deadlift? Or anyone just have some pet lift that you were ungodly strong at?

Brat, I assume you read about the time I got jumped. One of the guys I was in it with was a bodybuilder. He went pro but never did better than local events really. But man was he strong. He did 500lbs squat, 3 times his senior year. He had the best squat that year. He was also the guy I mentioned was a far better fighter than me. Yeah , he hit hard. He was Isshin Ryu and judo.

315 BP for 6 reps.
405 deadlift for 5 reps
385 squat for 10 reps ( I don't squat heavy do to past knee injuries).

Nothing near those numbers now since I don't do heavy weights anymore.

[boxerbilly]

FINALLY ! I knew there had to be someone that hit those bigger numbers. Good job. Were you always strong or just along time to get that? Honestly, at any time I went back to weights on a serious level, 9 months was the longest I stuck to being consistent. My biggest reason for failing I would suggest. I would have loved a bench like that.

[sanjuro_ronin]

FINALLY ! I knew there had to be someone that hit those bigger numbers. Good job. Were you always strong or just along time to get that? Honestly, at any time I went back to weights on a serious level, 9 months was the longest I stuck to being consistent. My biggest reason for failing I would suggest. I would have loved a bench like that.

It was something I did because I was trying a powerlifter phase in my strength training routine.
Those numbers aren't much though, most guys in the gym had bigger number and the steroid guys even more so.
Honestly, if I had juiced it those would have been warm up numbers, LOL !

The bench is not a true test of strength IMO, I did it simply because that is what one did.
You need to understand that big numbers are not the important unless of course a person is trying to get uber-strong.

General strength training is crucial for a MA IMO, even for everyday people really, I mean, we tend to lift things all the time so why NOT be strong ?

[Dragonzbane76]

I've always liked squats more than chest or isolation of a certain group for the shear fact its more weight distributed over body. I haven't lifted heavy now in some years. Still put up good numbers but as every person finds out time starts to be a battle we can't win only postpone. Joints hurt more now, long recovery times, etc.etc.

[David Jamieson]

ok bro then give me ur traditional hung gar lifting protocol



whole philosophy of ur shaolin kung fu is to surpass pre heaven natural abilities



i did that starting strength bullsh1t to 240 then my spine disc explode, had no money ate once or twice a day and had to even count the number of meatballs to microwave. then i got some money for food did some bodybuilding body weight went from 130 to 190 pounds, but doing light baby weights. now im googling better program and want to lift heavy again. doing some high rep stuff 200 for 13 rep rite now

A) I don't practice Hung Gar per se. I practice several things that contribute to my overall well being, strength and pugilistic ability. :)
B) We should always work at making our bodies the best we can. This comes and goes with other acivities in our lives, but in our youth, there's no real excuse.
C) "Truth is a pathless land." - Jiddu Krishnamurti :)

[pakuakid]

Okay lets me ask this.

Is there anyone here that managed to get that 300 lbs bench? 500lbs squat and the same or higher with the deadlift? Or anyone just have some pet lift that you were ungodly strong at?

Brat, I assume you read about the time I got jumped. One of the guys I was in it with was a bodybuilder. He went pro but never did better than local events really. But man was he strong. He did 500lbs squat, 3 times his senior year. He had the best squat that year. He was also the guy I mentioned was a far better fighter than me. Yeah , he hit hard. He was Isshin Ryu and judo.

My senior year in HS i was able to put together

350 BP 2 reps
225 BP 48 reps
640 Squat 8 reps
750 Deadlift 6 reps

I lifted twice a day 4 days a week and was a legit D1 football prospect so weightlifting was pretty much my job.

[Brule]

i did that starting strength bullsh1t to 240 then my spine disc explode,

Just curious why, please explain....

[boxerbilly]

My senior year in HS i was able to put together

350 BP 2 reps
225 BP 48 reps
640 Squat 8 reps
750 Deadlift 6 reps

I lifted twice a day 4 days a week and was a legit D1 football prospect so weightlifting was pretty much my job.

Another! You guys be proud of your past and present accomplishments. I respect that stuff. It is also stuff most can easily relate to in terms of strength measurement. There is no question what you generated. I know some might take it as bragging but I asked! I wanted to know. Thanks.

[wiz cool c]

i would be a lot stronger if i didnt follow internal kung fu advice and avoid muscle. and after i started lifting years of qigong had severely weakened my abdominal wall leading to spinal instability which caused spinal disc injury during deadlift..


good:D................................

[bawang]

Just curious why, please explain....

did not address muscular weakness and imbalance from sedentary lifestyle

[David Jamieson]

i dont know if doctors explained to u but spinal discs have no blood vessels and the best way to pump nutrients in it is by mechanical action.

basically u can sell ur inversion table and just do dips and pull ups

inversion tables are for release of pressure more than anything.

My brother went through a bout with a bad disc or two.

His solution as given by his doctor was to consume water before bed.
Discs absorb water while you sleep and get back to better shape through that, pretty much on their own.

Otherwise, yeah, if you are a tv watching cheeto eater, best to slowly get into training as opposed to jumping in full blast.
stuff takes time! lol

Impatience and unchecked desire causes many training injuries.

[curenado]

"Impatience and unchecked desire causes many training injuries."

Yes, many training marriages too :)

[David Jamieson]

"Impatience and unchecked desire causes many training injuries."

Yes, many training marriages too :)

lol. yes...I suppose that would bring on a shotgun wedding.

[bawang]

scientific principle behind horse stance training

http://www.westside-barbell.com/articles-by-louie-simmons/articles-published-in-2015/524-isometric-training